Okay, I am I thinking about starting a level 4 Beast Rider Cavalier, I was wondering if I could have a Giant Snapping Turtle Mount.
Medium beast riders can choose a camel or horse mount at 1st level. At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, lion, mastodon, megaloceros, snapping turtle (giant), tiger, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus as his mount. Additional mounts might be available with GM approval.
Now, Cavaliers treat their mounts as the druids animal companions, and as the druid animal companion, Giant turtles are only medium creatures.
Snapping Turtle
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., swim 20 ft.; AC +10 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 8, Dex 10, Con 9, Int 1, Wis 13, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, hold breath, scent.
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8 plus grab), Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4
So, My question is... At 4th level would I have to be a small race to pick Giant turtle, if so Why is it on the list of animals I can pick at 4th level. Or Could if pick it at 4th level and would it be a large turtle?
It's too small at 4, but will grow up big and strong at 7.
To me that says as a Cavalier it won't work unless you take another mount, dismiss it (or it dies) at 7 and summon the turtle.
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The full "Exotic Mount" class ability is as such
Each time the beast rider increases in level, he can choose to select a new, more impressive mount better suited to his increased power.
Small-sized beast riders can choose a pony or wolf mount at 1st level. At 4th level, a Small beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, boar, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, mastodon, megaloceros, riding dog, snapping turtle (giant), triceratops, or tyrannosaurus. At 7th level, he can also choose a dinosaur (deinonychus or velociraptor).
Medium beast riders can choose a camel or horse mount at 1st level. At 4th level, a Medium beast rider can also choose an allosaurus, ankylosaurus, arsinoitherium, aurochs, bison, brachiosaurus, elephant, glyptodon, hippopotamus, lion, mastodon, megaloceros, snapping turtle (giant), tiger, triceratops, or tyrannosaurus as his mount. Additional mounts might be available with GM approval.
In addition, a 7th-level or higher Medium beast rider can select any creature whose natural size is Large or Huge, provided that creature is normally available as a Medium-sized animal companion at 7th level (like a bear). To generate statistics for such a mount, apply the following modifications:
Now from how i read it it seems to me that the cavalier could ride the Turtle at 4th level regardless of the fact that they normally would not as a small sized cavalier has a specifically different list.
If these mounts were not supposed to be ridden until they were large sized then would they not simply be 'unlocked' at seventh level? It seems odd that a medium sized cavalier could use a creature they they could not ride as there mount.
I don't see any reason a medium creature can't ride a medium turtle. I do see problems with generating enough speed to "charge" on a turtle.
I don't see any reason a medium creature can't ride a medium turtle. I do see problems with generating enough speed to "charge" on a turtle.
I suppose you've never tried to ride a st. Bernard in real life. It doesn't really work. You realy do need an animal that's larger so its back can hold your weight.
Also, charging speeds on a turtle?
I have a question about the mechanics of a charge; I apologize because it's slightly off topic but I can't seem to find an answer:
If your *mount* can pounce (like riding a tiger) does it get it's full claw/claw/bite while charging AND you get your full attack sequence (or x3 damage with a lance?)
And a bonus question:
since I know the mount charges on the players initiative, does this mean ALL the attacks for both of you are determined at once, or separate initiative attack sequences?
AKA if you have an initiative of 7 and the mount has a 5, it charges on your turn but then you Lance (or ragelancepounce it), and the mount claw/claw/bites right then; *or* you lance it, someone who acted on 6 acts, then the mount?
What if the BBEG goes on 6 and tries to move, does that mean the mount loses it's attack actions?
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I have a question about the mechanics of a charge; I apologize because it's slightly off topic but I can't seem to find an answer:
If your *mount* can pounce (like riding a tiger) does it get it's full claw/claw/bite while charging AND you get your full attack sequence (or x3 damage with a lance?)
Assuming you're going with a lance (melee attack with a reach weapon): You get one melee attack. If you have Ride-By Attack, you can attack before your mount completes its movement, otherwise you have to choose between pouncing and lancing (or conceivably you might make your tiger Huge so it can attack at 10').
And a bonus question:
since I know the mount charges on the players initiative, does this mean ALL the attacks for both of you are determined at once, or separate initiative attack sequences?
That's a fair question. If you use Ride-By Attack as mentioned, you should resolve your attack immediately when you get it, then complete your mount's movement, then make its attacks.
If you and your mount attack from the same square after it has moved, it shouldn't make any difference to the action economy what order you resolve them. I would tend to do the mount's attacks (completing its turn), then your Ride check to attack with your mount, then your attack. This also avoids the question of what your animal-intelligence mount will do if you drop your charge target before the mount gets its attacks.
AKA if you have an initiative of 7 and the mount has a 5, it charges on your turn
Sadly, if you get into this situation (and generally I would suggest to avoid having a different initiative than your mount) you will have to delay or ready until initiative 5. Either way, that's your initiative from then on.
What if the BBEG goes on 6 and tries to move, does that mean the mount loses it's attack actions?
That won't happen. If you and your mount go on 7 and the bad guy on 6, you and your mount resolve all your actions before him. If you and your mount go on 5 and the bad guy on 6, he completes his turn before you act. He could only do something partway through your charge if he had readied an action.
Lance is a reach weapon. If you charge on a pouncing animal, you hit with the lance while it's still 5 feet away, do your damage, then the animal continues on with it's attack and claw/claw/bite/rakes the same target. It's sort of like adding insult onto injury, but is more like adding injury onto injury.
I assume the Giant Turtle on the medium creature list at level 4 is a mistake. RAW i would say you can use it as a medium creature. RAI i doubt you can.
Official response on medium Beast Rider Cavaliers: the mounts listed are options you get at level 4 but can't select until level 7.
Official response on medium Beast Rider Cavaliers: the mounts listed are options you get at level 4 but can't select until level 7.
Sigh. I REALLY like the beast rider concept, but this issue drives me nuts every time it comes up. Why not just have the mount use the medium stats until 7, which it then gets the large stats. RAW, I simply CANNOT play a concept that has the same mount from 1 to 20, unless I choose a small character. Who ever could think this was a good idea!?
I have a character that I built back in the 2e days (Warrior/Beast Rider kit), and was able to finally rebuild him in 3.5 once the Animal Lord PrC came out, but this archtype IMO is a pale shadow of what it could be.
Official response on medium Beast Rider Cavaliers: the mounts listed are options you get at level 4 but can't select until level 7.Sigh. I REALLY like the beast rider concept, but this issue drives me nuts every time it comes up. Why not just have the mount use the medium stats until 7, which it then gets the large stats. RAW, I simply CANNOT play a concept that has the same mount from 1 to 20, unless I choose a small character. Who ever could think this was a good idea!?
Well, for a home game where our whole team played some variation of mounted character, the dm let me use the medium stats but have a large wolf for my mounted fury barb. I really don't see a problem with it in a home game. Does anyone have any particular reason against this? What I mean to say has anyone had any experience where this made things unbalanced or had some mechanical problem to it?