I've had opportunity recently to roll up two characters who wound up focusing on skills and who have relatively low strength (a human bard playing in a PbP of Council of Thieves with STR 8 and a new half-elf character for Society play with STR 10). The problem I'm having is I build these guys to be able to do fun stuff with their Dexterity based skills, and then the second they put on armor and carry a short sword (and yes, have a couple of other standard items like backpacks, and, y'know, CLOTHING--8 pounds for a Traveler's Outfit!) they get knocked into medium encumbrance with its penalty to movement and horrendous -3 Armor Check.
Are there any feats or traits that can help these types of characters out at first level or do I just need to (in the future) "buy" higher strength at the expense of something else that a skills-focused character would normally want?
Meantime, I'm just waiting for enough treasure to be able to afford a Haversack!
The one set of clothing you wear doesn't count for encumbrance, only additional sets you carry (although I can't find the quote for that at the moment). So that at least makes it a little easier to stay under the limit.
Master Work Backpack, Muleback Cords (though you don't get a cloak) Handy Haversack
Wow, you actually count your clothing's weight? Weird. I would never think to do that and would definitely never do it in addition to armor.
But anyway, have you considered buying a mule or hiring a porter? In the old days of D&D, it was basically expected that the adventuring party would have an entourage with them to carry their stuff.
The one set of clothing you wear doesn't count for encumbrance, only additional sets you carry (although I can't find the quote for that at the moment). So that at least makes it a little easier to stay under the limit.
PF got rid of that, your clothes count toward encumbrance now.
To the OP,
A couple of solutions for this, as I had similar problems with a previous character.
- Mithral is your friend. At higher levels, get Mithral armor/shields (Or Elven Chain, from the magic item chapter, it's light armor that provides medium armor protection).
- At very low levels, get a MW backpack. It adds one to your str for encumbrance purposes.
- Mule Back Chords. These are the best solution to your problem. They take up the arm slot (which your skilled armor wearing dude is unlikely to need) and add a whopping +8 to your str for encumbrance.
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PFS characters are built using point buy. If you plan to wear anything better than leather you need a better strength. If you have a 8 str then you might as well forget about carrying anything. Also, if you are wearing armor you take the worse check penalty from armor or encumbrance. Most medium armors have a penalty worse than the medium encumbrance penalty.
In short, put more in STR next time.
@LazarX Yeah, tell me about it. The Bard's abilities were an array assigned by the GM and the 8 was among 'em. The half-elf (a rogue) uses the 20 point buy standard for Society characters and I must admit I used the suggested buy for "skill monkey" rogues from Rogue Eidolon's optimization guide. I don't think of the characters as one trick ponies, oddly, since skills are so varied, and of course the bard has his spells and performances. The rogue as I've envisioned him as eh at combat and social interactions but good at exploration, tricks and traps and so on.
@Are I would love it if that's true (no encumbrance for what you're wearing) but I can't find any confirmation for that. The Encumbrance by Weight section at page 169 of the Core Rulebook says "total the weight of all the character's items..."
@Vuvu All things on my list for when I get the gold! These characters are both just starting out.
If your character(s) trust their PC allies you could ask them nicely to carry a few items for you.
This is all excellent advice, thanks everybody.
The bard is already in play. The rogue, I think I'm going to swap out his 14 INT for his 10 STR and gain a little carrying capacity and some combat effectiveness as well.
There are also ways to skim some mundane weight off if you want to, like trading in your traveller's/explorer's outfit for a monk's outfit, and your backpack for an ordinary sack.
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I highly recommend if your going to make a rogue. Think of using the same point buy you wold for a ranger. I know it sounds weird but it works. It will help avoid one of the pit falls of the rogue class.
The rogue class is a very good class. It is very hard to make a good one. The most common mistakes made with rogues.
1: Dumping Con or not starting with enough. 14 Min starting.
2: Int is not a dump stat, But with 8 skill ranks a level it is not important to start with a Int above 10. And Combat Expertise is a wast for a rogue your to hit is low already. And Gang up helps but not as much as putting thous same points in Str, Dex, or Con and dose not cost two feet's. Any CM you might think of is not worth the effort compared to getting in place for a sneak attack.
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Yeah, somebody recommending dumping str down to 7 for a min/max cleric build in another thread, and my first thought was that they'd be screwed on encumbrance if they wear medium armor, even if it's mithral. I'm actually considering doing that for another character now, but only because he'll be a halfling, so his weapons and armor will weigh half as much.
Could also buy a pack mule, very low initial cost.
This. If your GM gives you a hard time about the mule, remind her that they also make great plot/story devices.
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Hey, fighter, carry this!
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Or, carry less stuff.
Seriously, as a Rogue you want to travel light anyway, so just wear your leather armor, a melee weapon, a small belt pouch and your picks and tools. Let the rest of the party handle the other mundane gear, and see if your DM will let you exchange your gp/sp for paper script (this is a standard in my games). This way, you'll have the space available for any magic items you find/buy and they won't weigh you down.
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I find with any fighting class that needs armor, even a 14 is too low for light load. It's really pushing it. I got myself a masterwork backpack as soon as I could.
People need to build their characters to be able to handle themselves on a basic level.
I usually think of these before I make a character:
Can I move around without assistance?
Can I defense myself in melee (much harder as a caster obviously)?
Can I bypass a trap?
Can I see or otherwise be aware of my surroundings?
Can I communicate (able to speak Common, usually not an issue)?
Can I heal myself?
When it comes to it, can I perform fight or flight well?
I can't do all of these by myself, but I usually limit these questions to only 1 or 2 that I can't do myself.
Hey, fighter, carry this!
That.
The funny thing is, many gaming groups don't even bother with encumberance. Hell, I'm surprise so many people here do.
I recently tried to push using those rules at out table, and I was shot down pretty darn quick by the other players, AND the current DM, who did'nt want to be bothered with this. I guess it's par for the course. Some of us have been playing together for close to 20 years now, over a bunch of systems, and I can't recall a single game where we calculated encumberance, as long as carried gear was "reasonable" (reasonable being a very relative term).
So, I guess my solution would be to find a lazier DM... O_o
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I find with any fighting class that needs armor, even a 14 is too low for light load. It's really pushing it. I got myself a masterwork backpack as soon as I could.
Once you can afford mithral armor, you should be ok with a 10 or 11 for a medium sized character, but I do agree with you on this. I've already decided that my human cleric will just suffer with a medium load until she has the money to upgrade her armor to mithral.
For small sized characters, lower strength is acceptable, because the weapons and armor weigh half as much. Which is good, since they get a -2 strength penalty.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why it used to be called, "Role-Playing"
I'm more of a "roll-player" myself.
The funny thing is, many gaming groups don't even bother with encumberance. Hell, I'm surprise so many people here do.
I recently tried to push using those rules at out table, and I was shot down pretty darn quick by the other players, AND the current DM, who did'nt want to be bothered with this. I guess it's par for the course. Some of us have been playing together for close to 20 years now, over a bunch of systems, and I can't recall a single game where we calculated encumberance, as long as carried gear was "reasonable" (reasonable being a very relative term).
So, I guess my solution would be to find a lazier DM... O_o
Yeah, I should add that I, also, have never forced a PC to calculate encumberance, nor have I met a GM that did so. It's a tedious calculation that is rarely worth the pay off, in my mind.
But I will reiterate my earlier suggestion with the actual cost to make it look more enticing:
For 8gp, you can buy a mule to carry all your stuff or hire some schmuck to do so for up to 80 days (unskilled hirelings, like people that carry crap, cost 1sp per day).
Actually, think about that for a second--you can hire what amounts to basically a slave for a year for just about the same price as a Light Crossbow.
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Take a page from fantasy art and wear a skimpy loincloth with your leather armor. Since Strength 8 gives you 26 lbs. as your maximum unencumbered weight, you could try the following:
1 lb. skimpy loincloth
15 lbs. leather armor
Instead of a backpack:
Riding Dog
Pack Saddle
All your non-combat stuff
On your person:
½ lb. Belt pouch
0 lbs. Flint and steel
1 lb. torch
Weapons:
4 lbs. light crossbow
1/2 lb. 5 bolts
2 lbs. rapier
0 lbs. sling
1.5 lbs. 3 sling bullets
I don't think the pack animal idea will really work for either of these two characters in particular, but I'll definitely keep it in mind in the future. The bard is already in play in the Council of Thieves AP, and as things turned out he would have lost his mule at the very first as we wound up fleeing a bunch of Hellknights down a sewer. The rogue (who I'm now reworking so that he has a 14 strength) is bound for Society play. In my experience pack animals and even mounts don't really work out for those adventures.
I didn't mean for this to turn into a ideological thing about optimizing and role/"roll" playing and so on, sorry. I think I would probably be judged an over-zealous "role" player by some with the detailed backgrounds and voices and so on, but I'm also attracted to the idea of optimization even if I don't really have the head for it in terms of math or system mastery. I like my characters to have detailed backgrounds, well fleshed out personalities, and to also be as good at their jobs (as I envision them) as I can make them. And sometimes, as in this case, I have trouble making them good at their jobs!
We always ignored encumbrance when I was a teenager back in AD&D--I don't even remember the rules for it. Society play is rules-as-written as far as I know so I kinda have to figure for it. It's not that big a deal figuring it out, I don't think, at least I haven't found it too big a chore so far.
Thanks again, everybody, for all your suggestions.
In my experience pack animals and even mounts don't really work out for those adventures.
I think urban encounters in general discourage pack animals. But if you can get away with it, nothing beats a mule for the price.
I love seeing this post up... because I see builds where people dump str to 7 or 8 without realising THIS is exactly the consequence!
On the upside (MW Pack wont do much for ya at 8 str - works best around 11-12-13) getting the other stuff, assuming your GM is flexible won't take that long. Then again, in an AP, it may define what you can spend on and where.
Exactly, there is a cost to any dump stat and strength is no different. Mounts, pack animals, magic items, trick backpacks and spells are all workarounds but at the end of the day a low strength character should be played like a low strength character, that includes the consequences.
The bard is already in play in the Council of Thieves AP, and as things turned out he would have lost his mule at the very first as we wound up fleeing a bunch of Hellknights down a sewer.
Sure, the mule would be lost, but a slave--er, I mean unskilled hireling--could have jumped right down that sewer with you!
The bard is already in play in the Council of Thieves AP, and as things turned out he would have lost his mule at the very first as we wound up fleeing a bunch of Hellknights down a sewer.Sure, the mule would be lost, but a slave--er, I mean unskilled hireling--could have jumped right down that sewer with you!
+1. Henchmen. Old school. They weren't just window dressing.
I would imagine the vast majority of untrained hirelings would not jump down in a dungeon with you.
Also, paying a wage to an untrained hireling doesn't render the hireling an unthinking automation. If they don't want to go into the scary dark tunnel, they ain't going.
A mule is similar, but it's a bit more willing to go into scary places (per its description).
So in your mind they would decide to parlay with the aggressive hellknights he mentioned? :D
And more specifically with the adventure mentioned, the hirelings wouldn't associate themselves with rebels of any kind. They typically have families to feed/take care of. If they caught wind that you were heading out to be part of some rebellion, they'd either turn you in or attempt to disappear.
Clothing worn does not have to count toward encumbrance. James Jacobs said that the omission converting from 3.5 to Pathfinder was likely unintentional, but not worth adding to errata. I wish it would at least be included in the FAQ, though.
As to the other issue, I recall playing a low Strength character who was an archeologist by trade; she had tons of exploration gear but would be overladen if she carried it all. I decided that her porter had been killed and she was looking to hire a new one (and, indeed, that one of the party warforged--this was an Eberron campaign obviously--who didn't have a name, got quickly dubbed "Porter" by my character).
At times when she didn't have someone to carry her stuff for her, she just dropped her backpack (a free action) before engaging in combat, to avoid the movement penalties. (And of course had the campaign gone long enough she could have gotten some magic gear, I'm sure begging the GM for a handy haversack was in the plans).
I had another character who I thought about carrying around her stuff in a pullable wagon or maybe on a floating disc.
Yeah, I'd have to go with an untrained hireling being quite a bit more willing to jump into the sewer simply because they'd be far more likely to understand the threat of the hellknights. Actually, the hireling would also be more threatened by the hellknights--I mean, why would they care about a mule? But a co-conspirator would be in trouble.
The last time I made a very skillful character, I made a halfling druid/ranger (it was a Gestalt game). I plotted out my encumbrance in stages, what I had on my person (clothes, on my belt, weapons, armor), then what was in my backpack, then on my bat animal companion. I made sure I could dump all the weight going into combat, or leave what I didn't need with my mule outside.
I feel that's part of a skillful character, knowing his limits and planning accordingly. I could drop the backpack in the first round and get it afterward. If we needed rope or something else big and heavy, it was at the entrance, often protected by my bat if the dungeon was too small for a flying companion.
Hey, fighter, carry this!That.
Yep.
My wife's rangers and my daughter (who favors rogues) both regularly use riding dogs as pack animals to help carry their equipment. In the ranger's case, this is because she prefers to have enough equipment for a lengthy expedition. The rogue finds the animal handy as a "flank buddy".
There are advantages to bringing a riding dog instead of horse or mule: medium-sized creatures, they can go nearly everywhere a PC can go and aren't too big for a burly character to haul up a cliff if needed. With appropriate training, attributes such as scent or the ability to trip foes can come in handy.
To prevent the character from being too dependent on the dog, the rogue usually carries some gear in a satchel, which is dropped or handed off when combat appears imminent. The dog carries bulky items and spares of some items. The dog is also equipped with masterwork studded leather barding, boosting its AC without penalizing it in combat.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The funny thing is, many gaming groups don't even bother with encumberance. Hell, I'm surprise so many people here do.
Things like this are more or less on the honor system in PFS because it's difficult for GMs to police and ultimately shouldn't be their job. I trust players to keep within the rules both in my home game and my PFS games but if a player has dumped strength and carries more than a very modest amount of gear and wears armor, I'm going to question them about it.
Encumbrance can be a PITA if you want to try and nickel and dime every gold piece, but its pretty trivial to get a ballpark guess of how much weight your character is carrying and check the chart and I think that's all most people expect.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Are there any feats or traits that can help these types of characters out at first level or do I just need to (in the future) "buy" higher strength at the expense of something else that a skills-focused character would normally want?
Meantime, I'm just waiting for enough treasure to be able to afford a Haversack!
With your PFS character you can ditch armor entirely and pick up a wand of mage armor for 2PA after your first scenario. Even if you burn 4 charges per scenario that will last you until 5th level where you can afford mithril armor. Your armor bonus is pegged at +4 for that whole time but if you have a high dexterity thats far better than an armor check penalry.
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The funny thing is, many gaming groups don't even bother with encumberance. Hell, I'm surprise so many people here do.Things like this are more or less on the honor system in PFS because it's difficult for GMs to police and ultimately shouldn't be their job. I trust players to keep within the rules both in my home game and my PFS games but if a player has dumped strength and carries more than a very modest amount of gear and wears armor, I'm going to question them about it.
Encumbrance can be a PITA if you want to try and nickel and dime every gold piece, but its pretty trivial to get a ballpark guess of how much weight your character is carrying and check the chart and I think that's all most people expect.
That's about how I think about it. I've never had a DM ask how much my character is carrying. But when I create a character with low strength, I do track encumbrance of my starting items to make sure I'm not going over my limit. For this reason, my low str characters usually end up not buying a rope and grappling hook, which are relatively heavy things that most characters have. I figure I'll usually have at least one or two teammates with such things, anyway.