As the title says.
I have seen many brilliant artificer/engineer classes. But they're all very, very different.
Which makes me wonder, what exactly do people want or see in an artificer class?
I might try my hand at one later on, as my first full class -- -- first fully completed full class, just to add to the glut.
As the title says.
I have seen many brilliant artificer/engineer classes. But they're all very, very different.
Which makes me wonder, what exactly do people want or see in an artificer class?
I might try my hand at one later on, as my first full class -- -- first fully completed full class, just to add to the glut.
I think all the versions show the popularity of the original class from 3.5 Eberron ... and the very lack luster appeal of the Pathfinder update. The update to me seems slapped together and very lacking.
I see the Artificer as an alternative to the Rogue/bard.
1.Trapfinding
2.Decent Skill points (6+)
3.Deecent skill set - More tuned toward knowledges instead of social
4.Int utility caster (Up to 6th level caster with limited spell list)
5.Middle Base Attack
6.Flavor wise he should be king conserning Magic Items
7.I like the idea of a pool of abilities to choose from like magus, rogue, barbarian, ect.
As far as roll he should be more of a support/dps.
There's no official Pathfinder artificer.
There's no official Pathfinder artificer.
Well I never said there was. There is an updated Pathfinder artificer though. Its a 3rd party product, but its on the Pathfinder SRD.
Either way thats what I believe the Artificer should be. Have you had a chance to look at my version I posted yesterday?
There's no official Pathfinder artificer.Well I never said there was. There is an updated Pathfinder artificer though. Its a 3rd party product, but its on the Pathfinder SRD.
Either way thats what I believe the Artificer should be. Have you had a chance to look at my version I posted yesterday?
I know which artificer you speak of, it's the one by Adamant Entertainment in their Tome of Secrets. The one widely considered as broken beyond repair. I'm going to hold my tongue about this one.
For more often than I like, people think it's an official one, just because it's on d20pfsrd.com. People often confuse that for the official reference document as well.
And I have not yet had the chance.
There's no official Pathfinder artificer.Well I never said there was. There is an updated Pathfinder artificer though. Its a 3rd party product, but its on the Pathfinder SRD.
Either way thats what I believe the Artificer should be. Have you had a chance to look at my version I posted yesterday?
I know which artificer you speak of, it's the one by Adamant Entertainment in their Tome of Secrets. The one widely considered as broken beyond repair. I'm going to hold my tongue about this one.
For more often than I like, people think it's an official one, just because it's on d20pfsrd.com. People often confuse that for the official reference document as well.
And I have not yet had the chance.
Well I might be mistaken but isnt the Artificer copy righted. I didnt think Eberon classes and material where part of the open license. If they arent then Piazo cant actually update it... which begs to ask why a 3rd party product can get away with it so I might be wrong.
Either way while I agree that their version is poorly implemented I really like the idea of Wierd Science... I just think it needs more boundaries on how many spells you can place on one item. That and leave it up to the DM to determine how said spells interact together.
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Adamant Entertainment's Artificer was good in concept ; but horrible in execution.
How I would like the artificer to be :
- Alchemist archetype. Heavily bomb-oriented.
- I don't want an Eberon conversion. I didn't have this book, I never saw it's content, I don't even now what it looks like, and each time I see someone asking for it, it turns me off. Has been made to death and has never interested me.
- Crafting-oriented. Maybe as a party buffer, or able to craft temporary magic items.
- Trapfinding, and trap setter.
How I would like an engineer to be :
- Alchemist or summoner archetype.
- Dealing with constructs in a CLEAR and QUICK way (sorry Paizo, not the case currently IMHO).
- I want to be able to play Iron Man. Yes, Iron Man. Cunning and/or charismatic guy in an armor he upgrades through levels with flamethrowers, tesla coils, drills, jet-powered boots, lasers, you name it.
Adamant Entertainment's Artificer was good in concept ; but horrible in execution.
How I would like the artificer to be :
- Alchemist archetype. Heavily bomb-oriented.
- I don't want an Eberon conversion. I didn't have this book, I never saw it's content, I don't even now what it looks like, and each time I see someone asking for it, it turns me off. Has been made to death and has never interested me.
- Crafting-oriented. Maybe as a party buffer, or able to craft temporary magic items.
- Trapfinding, and trap setter.How I would like an engineer to be :
- Alchemist or summoner archetype.
- Dealing with constructs in a CLEAR and QUICK way (sorry Paizo, not the case currently IMHO).
- I want to be able to play Iron Man. Yes, Iron Man. Cunning and/or charismatic guy in an armor he upgrades through levels with flamethrowers, tesla coils, drills, jet-powered boots, lasers, you name it.
Im sorry you never got to experience Eberon. I rather enjoyed the setting and the Artificer was probably my favorite part of it... well that and flying ships.
I am not a huge fan of the Alchemist and Artificer in my opinion needs to be its own base class. Im a bit over the archtype thing. But again thats just me and I understand the Alchemist is pretty popular on these boards. I just see the bombs as another version of a warlock. Ones a touch attack ray... the other a touch attack throw.
I could see an archtype filling in but again I think the Artificer is unique enough to diserve its own class.
O and as for Weird Science. The reason I reall like it. It just looks FUN. So much flavor as to why a device acts like a magic spell. Burning Hands.... you just made a mini flame thrower. Fly spell... there is your jet pack/boots. Scorching ray... lasers! Lighting bolt... can you say tesla coils.... lots and lots of ideas pop in my head every time I think of Weird Science.
A crazy gnome tinker who creates toys galore.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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As the title says.
I have seen many brilliant artificer/engineer classes. But they're all very, very different.
Which makes me wonder, what exactly do people want or see in an artificer class?
I might try my hand at one later on, as my first full class -- -- first fully completed full class, just to add to the glut.
Here is my personal Artificer wish list:
1. Crafting is first and foremost. He should be the master at crafting, but he shouldn't tread on the Alchemist. No potion brewing, also no wand, staff or scroll-making. To me, he should effectively get the Master Craftsman feat for free beginning at first level...2. but he should be able to also create items that mimic spell effects. Effectively wands, but with limited uses per day instead of charges, and a chance of them breaking. This means he should have a "spell list" that includes most offensive spells, a few defensive ones, and very few battlefield control ones (these are the Wizard's territory). He should be able to learn these spells using a Wizard's spellbook or a scroll, so Read Magic should be a uses-per-day spell-like ability for him.
3. He should be able to craft constructs at higher levels, and have a construct companion as an option. This means he should also be able to heal constructs during battle.
4. He should NOT have bombs. That's for the alchemist. Maybe you could have a bomb-throwing archetype or something if you like.
5. At very high levels, (like 15), he could make himself a mechanical "shell" that has its own HP and keeps him safe inside and grants him DR15/- and a bunch of energy resistances until it gains the broken condition. If it's destroyed, he'd have to spend a LOT of money rebuilding it.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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As the title says.
I have seen many brilliant artificer/engineer classes. But they're all very, very different.
Which makes me wonder, what exactly do people want or see in an artificer class?
I might try my hand at one later on, as my first full class -- -- first fully completed full class, just to add to the glut.
Here is my personal Artificer wish list:
1. Crafting is first and foremost. He should be the master at crafting, but he shouldn't tread on the Alchemist. No potion brewing, also no wand, staff or scroll-making. To me, he should effectively get the Master Craftsman feat for free beginning at first level...
2. but he should be able to also create items that mimic spell effects. Effectively wands, but with limited uses per day instead of charges, and a chance of them breaking. This means he should have a "spell list" that includes most offensive spells, a few defensive ones, and very few battlefield control ones (these are the Wizard's territory). He should be able to learn these spells using a Wizard's spellbook or a scroll, so Read Magic should be a uses-per-day spell-like ability for him.
3. He should be able to craft constructs at higher levels, and have a construct companion as an option. This means he should also be able to heal constructs during battle.
4. He should NOT have bombs. That's for the alchemist. Maybe you could have a bomb-throwing archetype or something if you like.
5. At very high levels, (like 15), he could make himself a mechanical "shell" that has its own HP and keeps him safe inside and grants him DR15/- and a bunch of energy resistances until it gains the broken condition. If it's destroyed, he'd have to spend a LOT of money rebuilding it.
ARRGH I hit the edit button and wrote a whole bunch of stuff, but then when I submitted it, it must've been too late to edit anymore, and the whole damn thing was lost! I had examples for how to do the construct companion, how to let the artificer enter it, all kinds of shit! GRRRRRR!!!!
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The Artificer should be to physics and engineering, what the alchemist is to chemistry and biology.
1 - Construct Companion: Use Eidolon/Animal companion for inspiration.
2 - Gun and Gun use: the artificer might not be the crack-shot the gun slinger is, but he can make his gun do cool stuff.
3 -Magus-like or Alchemist-like casting (devices!)
4 - Trap planting/springing.
Or any 3 out of 4.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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The Artificer should be to physics and engineering, what the alchemist is to chemistry and biology.
1 - Construct Companion: Use Eidolon/Animal companion for inspiration.
2 - Gun and Gun use: the artificer might not be the crack-shot the gun slinger is, but he can make his gun do cool stuff.
3 -Magus-like or Alchemist-like casting (devices!)
4 - Trap planting/springing.
Or any 3 out of 4.
-I'm a huge NOT-FAN of the gunslinger, so I'd prefer to see a gun-weilding Artificer be an archetype, not the main Artificer.
-The Construct companion should start with the stats of a small Animated object and then follow the druid's animal companion table, gaining construction points instead of feats.
-I agree with the casting, you should use the Alchemist spell progression and call them devices, have the spell list be mostly offensive spells and a few defensive, but no battlefield control, that's the Wizard's territory.
-Trapfinding/planting/etc. is great, maybe make that an option. I'm thinking the Artificer should have "Inventions" they get at 2nd and every even level, similar to an Alchemist's discoveries, and trapfinding could be one of them.
I had all this written out in that post that got eaten by the forums... sad times. I literally had written paragraphs of text and it all disappeared....
I always copy before hitting submit on big posts. It's a good habit.
I think the alchemist makes a good framework for a tinker class:
+3/4 BAB
Good Fortitude and Reflex Saves
1d8 HD
4 skill points per level
Int-based 6 level caster
A list of different inventions that can be used to accomplish a bunch of different aspects of the master tinkerer:
Powered Armor
Temporary Magic Items to buff allies
Gunslinging
Pet Construct
Trapfinding and Trapsetting
MacGuyvering solutions
I think the Alchemist is already a great base to build upon. Likely the artificer and/or engineer would do well as archetypes on the Alchemist.
We currently have a character who is that 3rd party Artificer in our game, and while the DM's over-leniency is probably a factor, the class does seem a bit overpowered and very steps-on-toes-ish.
Building from the ground-up, I suppose what I'd like to see is something along the lines of:
- A support-role character, focusing on crafting and using mundane and mildly magic-like equipment for use by himself and the party. In combat, his role should be something like crowd control, using traps and devices to immobilize, lead, or disorient opponents, or to alter the battlefield in some way.
- He should be good with guns, but not as good as the gunslinger. He should be good with some bomb-like thrown weapons, but not as good as the alchemist. He should be knowledgeable without being more so than the bard. He should be able to make devices that can emulate spells, but not ones as potent as a wizard's. He should be not at all good at social situations.
- He should be top-tier in terms of crafting equipment, traps, and other mundane or mechanical items. As he progresses, he should be able to make equipment with enhancement bonuses or other special qualities. While this could be gold-fueled, I like the idea of having a pool of crafting points unique to the class, allowing the creation of items with certain qualities in the same manner as a summoner's eidolon. You could pour all of the points into a few powerful items, or spread them out among multiple smaller, but still useful ones.
These items could range from weapons, to reusable traps, to trinkets with utility purposes like a SCUBA mask, and yes, even constructs who can help in battle or other tasks. The Artificer should be able to spend a set amount of time to deconstruct his items in order to use the crafting points for something else. Some items should have a chance to break on use, in which case they would not be useable until the next day, or if the artificer takes a set amount of time to repair them.
- Primary Abilities: Intelligence (for craft/knowledge), Dexterity (for skills/thrown devices)
- His skills should be item- and knowledge-focused: Appraise, Craft (Any), Disable Device, Escape Artist (maybe), Knowledge (Arcana, Engineering), Perception (maybe), Profession, Spellcraft (maybe), Survival (maybe), Use Magic Device
- Alignment: any
- Hit Die: d8
- Probably 6 + Int per level for skills
- Decent starting wealth, at least on par with Bard.
- Low or medium attack progression
- Low fortitude, high reflex, high will (maybe)
- At higher levels, the artificer would be able to make incredible, da Vinci-esque devices such as mechanically driven robots and ornithopters (flying machines). They should be able to pinpoint what part of a building should be detonated to bring the whole thing tumbling down. I do NOT think the artificer should ever feel like a spellcaster. It should be gritty, greasy, and almost steam-punk. Tesla-esque technology might be neat, but flavor-wise, I don't know about computers, ray-guns, and hoverboots.
I think the traps, guns and the bombs should be things you can choose with his "Inventions" but not a fixed part of the class.
The craft part could be handled by giving Master craftsman for free at 1st level and then Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item at higher levels.
The main course of the class could be a craft points system. This could be used to make bonded armor or weapons, macGyver one off spell trigger items, make magic items, armor or weapons with a discount or with abilities that can be obtained only with engineering but not magic. Archetypes could be able to use craft points to make eidolon-like constructs or 'iron man' type armor.
I'm not sure about the casting as 'devices', doesn't seem to fit with the flavor of the class.
No magic, i think is the class was made correctly it should represent the march of technology, the non-magical minds dealing with magic.
I think having their "spells" be one time use crafted devices would fit really well. Kinda like Alchemist potions / bombs
I think having their "spells" be one time use crafted devices would fit really well. Kinda like Alchemist potions / bombs
Yea, that's what I'm thinking as well.
Possibly an archetype for Alchemists that refluffs the Extracts as devices.
I think an alchemist with that fluff change, SGG's Spagyric Devices instead of Mutagen, no poison abilities, and...the alchemy creation buffs applied to any items would work fairly well.
Doesn't quite have the right feel though, but it's a decent enough quick-and-dirty thing.
FWIF, this is my favorite take on it so far. It's Christopher Delvo's version.
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FWIF, this is my favorite take on it so far. It's Christopher Delvo's version.
This... well, this class is pretty cool. It maybe looks a bit weak at first though when compared to other classes.
For starters, the companion should be a true construct. It's in a weird position as it is.
I have updated my Artificer class for any that are interested. I would love to hear everyone's opinion. Cheapy I took quite a few of your suggestions.
d20 Past had a Mad Scientist type Advanced Class. It basically built devices that simulated magic spells as extraordinary effects.
Anyone else have something to add?
The most appropriate example I could probably think of is, unfortunately, one that I really doubt most people would understand without some level of explanation, so here we go:
My ideal Artificer would be a class akin to Kamen Rider Fourze.
Kamen Rider Fourze is a Japanese TV series that focuses on a transforming super hero who fights space monsters using a large collection of tools called Astro Switches. These Astro Switches arm Kamen Rider Fourze with a variety of different tools to perform a multitude of functions, and the functions of certain Astro Switches can be combined together for a different result (for example, combining a missile launcher or a turret with a radar dish would give him homing missiles or better targeting).
This is what I would like to see in an Artificer: A class that can construct different pieces of technology that perform certain functions to do whatever the user needed it to do at the time. I suppose, in a way, it would be a bit like an Alchemist, only instead of an Alchemist turning spells into potions or bombs, an Artificer would turn spells into pieces of technology. Basically how that 3rd-party version of Artificer works, only having the bugs worked out of it so it wasn't horribly easy to make the class more broken than Wizards.
A suit like Iron Man would be pretty badass as well, but that's minor.
Hey Harrison, this is my current list of Artificer classes.
While none of them that I recall have quite that ability, many of the listed ones do have "devices as spells". And your idea is certainly pretty interesting...hmm
Also, there are 4 3rd party artificer classes. LPJr's Machinesmith is a much better take on the concept than the Adamant one, precisely for the reasons you outlined.