|
...Lots of excitement...
There is a huge thread called Caster Martial Disparity Battleground
Once you have finished reading the 1,376 posts in that thread you will realise that every single point claiming: "Oh. you sillys, wizard will beat you with this obvious tactic!" has already been disproved in that thread.
For instance, the timestop-summon-wooha! tactic is dismissed early on but people are still dragging it up here.
It's an interesting thread, enjoy!
|
|
Drumlord, you pretty obviously missed all the stuff about BATTY BAT and Spell Sunder. Invis is no obstacle (due to blindsense), and defensive buffs are nearly useless (in fact, they're a liability that makes you light up right on through Greater Invis to Arcane Sight).Explain then. I didn't see it in this thread.
Incidentally, an alternate strategy assuming we don't even see Am cuz our perception is not as good:
surprise round: time stop (we'll assume minimum rounds): cast summon monster, cast quickened greater scrying on summoned monster, second round greater teleport to safe location far far away.
first round: watch as Am barbarian smashes summoned critter.
Diviner now knows exactly what Am looks like and is safe. Is Am immune to scrying? Will he be safe for the rest of his life and avoid sleeping knowing the enemy could attack him at any moment? Or are we assuming Am would avoid killing a critter a casty brought in to kill him?
GHOST FIGHTER RAGE POWERPost a touch AC and we'll talk
AMULET OF NEGATES LEVEL DRAINING SPELLSSource? I don't see this in Core or APG so I assume some supplement book?
BLINDSIGHTRange on this? A 20th level diviner has 125 ft. range on enervationsSPELL SUNDERAgainst which one? The mirror image? The stoneskin? The invisibility?
AND FACT THAT RAYS AM VERY DEFINITELY BETRAY LOCATION REGARDLESS OF METAMAGICNow you aren't even trying. I'll adjust: quickened enervation, enervation, move 30 ft. ... and still 125 ft. away from Am.
Can you target scrying on a monster during time stop?
I'm all for AM's build and I think it's funny as hell. But everything is forgetting the obvious weakness to it. It's based on charging for the surprise round kill. Also people are forgetting that the one-hit kill is not the only benefit of the build. So even if the casty neutralizes the charge (as below), AM BARBARIAN can still save against most spells with a 31+ save bonus and outrageous hp.
A charge (even an 800' one) requires line of sight and a clear path, hazardous terrain not withstanding. So the the diviner that uses forewarned to turn invisible breaks AM's ability to charge since AM hadn't yet had a turn. No charge. AM must move normally while looking for casty.
While I would love to devote the time to make a full casty to challenge AM (and I'm not sure I would be successful), here are the two examples off the top of my head that would stand a chance:
1. Casty surrounded by hellknights. Can't charge a creature who has all adjacent squares occupied. And the hellknights can lay down some Smite Chaos while AM tries to cut through.
2. Pixie casty. It's naturally invisible and unless AM can somehow get invisibility purge, he's not able to RAGELANCEPOUNCE period.
AM IN CORE, ALSO GIVE LIKE, SR 19. NEED BETTER PERCEPTION CHECK, MAN.
My perception check is fine. Your memory is hazy. You made me look, but it's the Scarab of Protection, not an amulet you are thinking of.
APPROXIMATE TOUCH AC AM... CARRY TWO... LIKELY IN NEIGHBORHOOD OF 30-32...BARBARIAN GUESS NOT. HAVE FUN WITH +13 TOUCH RAY.
Totally doable. +13 would indeed make sense for a naked wizard. Moment of prescience makes the first one +33. Quickened true strikes can make the rest +33. Only miss on a one, no save. The scarab does indeed make it quite annoying though so many enervations would not be a winning strategy on its own.
SENSE VARY ON CREATURE, AM GENERALLY 30-60 FT. MOVE TO SPOT CASTY AT PRIOR TO MOVING 30 FEET, SUDDENLY CASTY AM QUITE SEEABLE. UH-OH. AS FOR MOVE SPEED, ANY GOOD BARBARIAN AM ABLE TO COVER 125 FT IN SINGLE ROUND. THEY NOT TEACH THAT IN CASTY FANCY SCHOOL? BUFFS AM POINTLESS, WHEN BARBARIAN AM DEALING 3D8+168 PER HIT CASTY LAST TWO, MAYBE, IF BOOSTED CON WAY TOO HIGH.
I can't follow any of this. The diviner would be invisible before you got there, spending his move actions during time stop to get farther than 60 ft. away from his original position. You would need to know where to look before your blindsense would matter.
Also, IIRC you can't summon during Time Stop because you cannot affect other creatures while under time stop.
Never once seen that interpreted that way. If you disagree, make a new thread and FAQ it.
The basics is that he can charge you from further distance than you can see. Even if you're heavily into perception, with say, a +45 modifier, you can see at most about 550 ft. Batty bat can see you from about 850, and AM can charge you from 900. You'll be dead before even rolling initiative.
Speaking of FAQs, you need line of sight to charge something. Just because your mount has line of sight doesn't mean that you do as well. I don't want to harp on this, but it's a pretty clear bending of the rules in Am's strategy.
Even if you WOULD get a surprise round, you don't know anything about what happens - you only get your "spider sense tingling". Do you always burn of all your high-level spells and teleport away if your spider sense goes PING? Sounds like an _unusually_ paranoid wizard, and that says a whole lot.
I'm sorry, are we not talking about somebody murdering somebody who just happens to be wandering around in a field somewhere? Why is it we are applying real world logic to one character and not the other. We could very easily be talking about a wizard who looks like a barbarian. Would we still be talking about Am barbarian charging him from 600 ft. away?
This is an exercise in rules sillyness, not in how you would interpret an ability as a DM. In the rules, forewarned is only going to go off as you are entering combat. Your spidey sense doesn't go off when you are walking through a crowd; it goes off when somebody wants to murder you.
|
|
Read the original thread!
Anyone relying upon invisiblity is wasting a spell.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/arcane-sight
The Time Stop thing is a logical contradiction in the spell write-up. You are both wrong and both correct at the same time.
But, anyway, AM can sunder your summons.
Forewarned is fun, it probably helps, but scrying is a bit useless.
If you read the original thread you'd have seen the ways casters started to get at AM and you could build your response by standing on the shoulders of others. Rather than starting from scratch.
Oh, checked on the summon during time stop. Reread the spells. You can summon during time stop, you just can't Gate or use stuff like Scrying on the summoned creature.
AM BARBARIAN doesn't technically charge, I think. Batty bat does. Look at mounted charging in the PRD: "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge."
I'm sorry, are we not talking about somebody murdering somebody who just happens to be wandering around in a field somewhere? Why is it we are applying real world logic to one character and not the other. We could very easily be talking about a wizard who looks like a barbarian. Would we still be talking about Am barbarian charging him from 600 ft. away?
And when we get to the point that the wizard needs to disguise himself as a barbarian not to get killed, I think AM's point has been made. We are applying logic - it's just that AM BARBARIAN is supersticious, and thus, finds it very logical to RAGEPOUNCELANCE any castys he encounters.
Also, as usual, you're making a shroedinger's wizard. You don't post a build, you post a strategy and assume that the wizard has all these things prepared. When your strategy gets proven ineffective, you retcon and say that oh well in that case I would have done.
How many wizards would have to make it wrong before a single one makes it right?
Read the original thread!
Not interested. No need to be rude about it. I was unaware there was a rule on this forum that you can only post in one thread after reading another. The OP, nor AM, has stated that my posts or anybody else's are not welcome here so you'll have to forgive me if I don't recognize your authority in these matters.
Anyone relying upon invisiblity is wasting a spell.
The scenario is that at of the start of combat, AM is 600 ft. away from caster. The diviner is guaranteed to go first and will make himself invisible while 600 ft. away, and also move away from his original position. AM will not see him.
Incidentally, does he have arcane sight on permanently in this scenario or is he casting it?
You can summon during time stop, you just can't Gate or use stuff like Scrying on the summoned creature.
Scrying doesn't target the creature. It creates a magical sensor. Perfectly legit in time stop.
But, anyway, AM can sunder your summons.
That's absolutely the idea for simply making Am visible to you since your perception isn't as high as his. He charges forward to kill/sunder summon and you see him do it from wherever you want on the planet. The idea in this scenario would be simply to see Am so you know who your threat is.
edit: this is all I can do for now, but I'd be happy to do a build-off with Am. Not going to spend the time on that though unless we will actually see a build.
As many as necessary, of course. I've got just as many wizards as you have AMs, plus, oh, as many clones as I need.
A lvl 20 wizard gives 200k XP. It's only lack of epic level rules that prevent AM from being like level 27 or so by now.
Arcane sight is one dispel magic away from being gone. Or we can bring up mind block and argue about that. Or the fact that knowing what square a person is in doesn't give you line of sight to that person.
Dispel magic isn't really relevant since you don't have time to waste on that when you're inches from Observed State of -300 hit points.
When fluff and rules contradict you have to go with the rules and the rules say you can not effect another creature while in time stop. It sucks, but it is a very fair point.
On a rereading, it only says monsters are invulnerable and that you cannot target them. I guess summon monster works as long as they are willing (not seeing it as a hostile action, thereby not triggering invulnerability) as summon monster doesn't have a target. Gate, however, has.
|
|
Arcane sight is one dispel magic away from being gone. Or we can bring up mind block and argue about that. Or the fact that knowing what square a person is in doesn't give you line of sight to that person.Read the original thread!
Anyone relying upon invisiblity is wasting a spell.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/arcane-sight
Yep, but AM is like an ogre in a cute film.
He has layers.
You're dispelling arcane sight, which is fair enough: What's the range on your dispel? Does it put you inside the mount's blindsense?
What's the routine here? Timestop, summon? dispel when timestop ends?
Ooh, that's interesting, just checked permanency and you can only make arcane sight permanent on yourself - so not sure how Am is getting it.
just checked permanency and you can only make arcane sight permanent on yourself - so not sure how Am is getting it.
That's a very good point. I guess if he had ranks in UMD he could use a scroll, but otherwise it's hard.
|
As many as necessary, of course. I've got just as many wizards as you have AMs, plus, oh, as many clones as I need.A lvl 20 wizard gives 200k XP. It's only lack of epic level rules that prevent AM from being like level 27 or so by now.
By the same logic, my caster is level 587, because he's been wandering around exterminating barbarians for decades. And they're chock full of XPs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know, the castys can't even near AM as it stands right now, and I still haven't ever, in either thread mentioned my final grand F-you.
AM has antagonize and a +31 intimidate check.
I think we're done here. Taking 10 he autowins on any wizard that somehow survives the alpha strike.
Scrying doesn't target the creature. It creates a magical sensor. Perfectly legit in time stop.
Can you stop talking about scrying till you bother to read the spell?
Fair enough, on a natural 1 it only affects wizards with a wisdom of less than 16. Which is all of them. :)
Fair enough, on a natural 1 it only affects wizards with a wisdom of less than 16. Which is all of them. :)I was expecting something about how casty never threaten AM, AM threaten casty instead.
...Dammit!
Scrying doesn't target the creature. It creates a magical sensor. Perfectly legit in time stop.Can you stop talking about scrying till you bother to read the spell?
Would you use these words if you were talking to me in person? Why say this instead of "I think you are mistaken about ____. It's actually ____."
I assume you are referring to this line of time stop:
While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.
The invulnerable part means the caster can't use any spell in any way to hurt a creature (such as using a fireball). If they meant immunity to magic, it would have been stated that way. The second part about not being able to target a creature means the target line of a spell can't include a creature. Scrying creates a magical sensor near a creature; it doesn't target a creature. Maybe an issue of RAI vs. RAW, but certainly not as much as charging something you can't see.
---
Btw, if we're bringing antagonize into the equation, I bow out. There may still be a win condition for a casty, but antagonize means a wizard is bringing a tulip to a gun fight. Using only core races, you are forced to understand common so Am will always be able to antagonize you from any range you can perceive him and any wizard worth their salt will have the ability to get to him and melee attack him in a single round. There's a reason antagonize is banned at so many tables.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Btw, if we're bringing antagonize into the equation, I bow out. There may still be a win condition for a casty, but antagonize means a wizard is bringing a tulip to a gun fight. Using only core races, you are forced to understand common so Am will always be able to antagonize you from any range you can perceive him and any wizard worth their salt will have the ability to get to him and melee attack him in a single round. There's a reason antagonize is banned at so many tables.
AND SO, GM NEEDS TO NERF MARTIALS SO CASTYS CAN KEEP UP. AM DONE HERE.
Fair enough, on a natural 1 it only affects wizards with a wisdom of less than 16. Which is all of them. :)
Just a heads-up:
Antagonize: The DC to use the Antagonize feat (page 143) is listed as being equal to the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. Is this correct?
No. The DC to use the Antagonize feat should be 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier.Update: Page 143, in the Antagonize feat, in the benefits section, in the first paragraph, second sentence, change "DC equal to the target's Hit Dice" to "DC equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice".
AND SO, GM NEEDS TO NERF MARTIALS SO CASTYS CAN KEEP UP. AM DONE HERE.
Sort of. I wouldn't want castys to have access to antagonize either.
Of course, casty could use leadership to get a cohort especially good at grappling and dispelling teleportation spells to stop antagonized casty from succumbing to his ridiculous lust for attacking things in melee when they insult him. But that's even beyond my limit for sillyness.
Trinam was taking that into account. On a natural 1 he has a score of 32.Fair enough, on a natural 1 it only affects wizards with a wisdom of less than 16. Which is all of them. :)Just a heads-up:
Antagonize: The DC to use the Antagonize feat (page 143) is listed as being equal to the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. Is this correct?
No. The DC to use the Antagonize feat should be 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier.Update: Page 143, in the Antagonize feat, in the benefits section, in the first paragraph, second sentence, change "DC equal to the target's Hit Dice" to "DC equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice".
That has a 50% chance to affect a lvl 20 casty with a Wis of 14. Not nearly as automatic.
EDIT: Bad math, I see your point. Multitasking is not my strong point. Really enjoying this thread though.
AND SO, GM NEEDS TO NERF MARTIALS SO CASTYS CAN KEEP UP. AM DONE HERE.Sort of. I wouldn't want castys to have access to antagonize either.
Of course, casty could use leadership to get a cohort especially good at grappling and dispelling teleportation spells to stop antagonized casty from succumbing to his ridiculous lust for attacking things in melee when they insult him. But that's even beyond my limit for sillyness.
You can have your tetori monk, but only if I get my summoner.
...and for some reason I can't help but love that idea for a cohort. These are always the best threads. XD
That has a 50% chance to affect a lvl 20 casty with a Wis of 14. Not nearly as automatic.Trinam was taking that into account. On a natural 1 he has a score of 32.Fair enough, on a natural 1 it only affects wizards with a wisdom of less than 16. Which is all of them. :)Just a heads-up:
Antagonize: The DC to use the Antagonize feat (page 143) is listed as being equal to the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. Is this correct?
No. The DC to use the Antagonize feat should be 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier.Update: Page 143, in the Antagonize feat, in the benefits section, in the first paragraph, second sentence, change "DC equal to the target's Hit Dice" to "DC equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice".
+31, not 31 total. Minimum score is a 32, which is a 20 hd creature with a 14 wis or less. Average is 41.
|
|
Scrying doesn't target the creature. It creates a magical sensor. Perfectly legit in time stop.I assume you are referring to this line of time stop:
While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.The invulnerable part means the caster can't use any spell in any way to hurt a creature (such as using a fireball). If they meant immunity to magic, it would have been stated that way. The second part about not being able to target a creature means the target line of a spell can't include a creature. Scrying creates a magical sensor near a creature; it doesn't target a creature. Maybe an issue of RAI vs. RAW, but certainly not as much as charging something you can't see.
I think he was probably referring to the 1 hour casting time for scrying.
Your summons are a distant memory by the time you have finished casting scrying.
+31, not 31 total. Minimum score is a 32, which is a 20 hd creature with a 14 wis or less. Average is 41.
And the max you could get that DC to is 43, but a wizard with a maxed wisdom? I just can't support that, even for this. Especially since then there's still a 40% chance it would work.
I think he was probably referring to the 1 hour casting time for scrying.
Agreed on that count. My original post said greater scrying which is a standard action. Responses referred to just "scrying" so it may have gotten confused.
And the max you could get that DC to is 43, but a wizard with a maxed wisdom? I just can't support that, even for this. Especially since then there's still a 40% chance it would work.
Why on earth would a wizard max WISDOM? It's like his fourth stat. This is an extreme example of shroedinger's wizard. When your idea was rays, you're like "yeah but with maxed dex" and now you're with "yeah but with maxed wisdom". Post a frakkin' build. Yes, AM's build is not finished but he's got the cards on the table with the basis of his build and what his capabilities are.
Post a build. And what do you mean with 40% chance? Even if you got your wisdom to 26 it's still only DC 38 which is like 30% chance to save. And that's putting 26 in a more or less dump stat.
I'm curious, is there a way to build mr. casty as to beat AM barbarian in a grapple, and if so, can the attack from antagonize be used to start a grapple?
I don't see it happening, Strength Surge gives him a +20 cmd once a round if he gets threatened with a manuver.
With a max DC of antagonize of 30, AM's intimidation check is Too Big To Fail.
Fair enough, on a natural 1 it only affects wizards with a wisdom of less than 16. Which is all of them. :)Just a heads-up:
Antagonize: The DC to use the Antagonize feat (page 143) is listed as being equal to the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. Is this correct?
No. The DC to use the Antagonize feat should be 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier.Update: Page 143, in the Antagonize feat, in the benefits section, in the first paragraph, second sentence, change "DC equal to the target's Hit Dice" to "DC equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice".
So on a natural 1, he has a 32. Which effects anyone with less than a 16.
Which is... exactly what was said by Trinam?
So double ray of exhaustion, then grapple.I'm curious, is there a way to build mr. casty as to beat AM barbarian in a grapple, and if so, can the attack from antagonize be used to start a grapple?I don't see it happening, Strength Surge gives him a +20 cmd once a round if he gets threatened with a manuver.
Waves of exhaustion. His touch ac is silly high.
Even then, his cmd is about... 48ish while exhausted before surge. (rough estimate)
So what is AM's lowest stat? With Combat Reflexes a casty could get SOMETHING off before the RAGELANCEPOUNCE. I'm just wondering what would even work.
Why on earth would a wizard max WISDOM? It's like his fourth stat. This is an extreme example of shroedinger's wizard. When your idea was rays, you're like "yeah but with maxed dex" and now you're with "yeah but with maxed wisdom". Post a frakkin' build. Yes, AM's build is not finished but he's got the cards on the table with the basis of his build and what his capabilities are.
Post a build.
Um, to quote myself from a few posts ago...
"Would you use these words if you were talking to me in person?" Seriously, what the heck man? Is there a reason why you guys are approaching a discussion this way?
I never said anything about max dex. AM said +13 ranged touch (meaning +10 from BAB and +3 from a 16 dex, which is probably not even needed for the scenario I was describing). I said how a diviner would use magic to increase it (moment of prescience, true strike). So please don't put words in my mouth.
The thing you just quoted has me saying I "can't support" a max wisdom build. "Can't support" means I did not say "yeah but with a maxed wisdom." It means I was explaining why I would not produce a such a build. So please don't put words in my mouth.
And why would I post a build when I said earlier I bowed out because of antagonize?
Anyway, thanks to Trinam for the thought exercise. It was fun before jerks had to go and ruin it.
So what is AM's lowest stat? With Combat Reflexes a casty could get SOMETHING off before the RAGELANCEPOUNCE. I'm just wondering what would even work.
Lowest stat is a 7 charisma, but due to ride by attack he doesn't give the target of his charge an AoO for movement, so not sure how that helps.
@drumlord: No problem. I live for this stuff.
"The cocoon of the Caster-Martial Disparity beast pulsates and moans as the faces of the tormented emerge from beneath the threads of unreality their tortured faces clearly visible before they shriek and are pulled back forcefully. As it pulsates a thousand madmen strip themselves naked before the cocoon and carve alien runes in their skins with flint knives as they chant in a language unknown to human tongues."
"RAI RAI CoDZilla RAW RAW Pun-Pun RAI RAI CoDZilla RAW RAW Pun-Pun DPR DPR DPR Optimization Munchkin erratta! MUNCHKIN ERRATA!"
"As the chanting grows louder and delves into your very soul the cocoon begins to crack and the madmen begin ritually tearing out their own hearts in supplication to the beasts dark growth. As the last one dies he beheads himself and his death whisper ushers forth the final word to usher in the rpg apocalypse."
"Bloat."
"It. Emerges."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
WhySo please don't put words in my mouth.
I'm honestly sorry that I sounded antagonistic. I blame a combination of fever and seeing about fifty-eleven similar suggestions get shot down, but I shouldn't have behaved that way. It was rude and unnecessary. I apologize.