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First off I want to say that I really love the Gunslinger class. I am playing one at 5th level right now and he is awesome. There is a small problem that I am having though.
I really want the feat "Deft Shootist Deed" which allows me to shoot and no draw attacks of opportunity when I have one grit point. Now in order to get it I have to have Dodge and Mobility. Since I have Nimble, Dodge is essentially useless because the bonuses don't stack and I am having to take a feat that I can't even use in order to get to the feat that I need. Other than that I like the way the class plays so far.
What do you think?
You should talk to your GM. If it does the exact same thing as Dodge, it would be entirely reasonable to ask him or her to allow Nimble to take the place of Dodge as a prerequisite. After all, the prerequisite basically is saying you need to be able to do X to learn to do Y, and if Dodge and Nimble both let you do X, they should both be valid for meeting the prerequisite to learn to do Y.
First off I want to say that I really love the Gunslinger class. I am playing one at 5th level right now and he is awesome. There is a small problem that I am having though.
I really want the feat "Deft Shootist Deed" which allows me to shoot and no draw attacks of opportunity when I have one grit point. Now in order to get it I have to have Dodge and Mobility. Since I have Nimble, Dodge is essentially useless because the bonuses don't stack and I am having to take a feat that I can't even use in order to get to the feat that I need. Other than that I like the way the class plays so far.
What do you think?
Why don't nimble and Dodge Stack.
Dodge bonuses always stack from different sources.
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First off I want to say that I really love the Gunslinger class. I am playing one at 5th level right now and he is awesome. There is a small problem that I am having though.
I really want the feat "Deft Shootist Deed" which allows me to shoot and no draw attacks of opportunity when I have one grit point. Now in order to get it I have to have Dodge and Mobility. Since I have Nimble, Dodge is essentially useless because the bonuses don't stack and I am having to take a feat that I can't even use in order to get to the feat that I need. Other than that I like the way the class plays so far.
What do you think?
Why don't nimble and Dodge Stack.
Dodge bonuses always stack from different sources.
But same bonuses don't stack even though they are coming from two different places. They are both "Dodge" bonuses.
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Bonus (Dodge)
A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.
Note the bolded part
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Bonus (Dodge)
A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.Note the bolded part
Awesome! I didn't know Dodge bonuses stack.
No problem glad to help man.
Argh! I hate the Gunslinger class because... because... Oh, wrong thread.
But yeah, Dodge is that oddball AC type that always stacks.
The fun one to get used to is Natural Armor, and then items/spells that "enhance" Natural Armor; increasing the NA bonus, or granting one if none is there. The wording can get funny on that one. Not the "same" AC bonus type, per se, but added into the same type.
How is the gunslinger as a class? Is it a bit under the power curve?
I'm playing as one. Started at level 3, just got to 4. I did only one attack per turn; it was kind suboptimal in damage - but I was hitting much more than my fellas. 1d8+nada hurt. At level 4 I got TWF (free feat by having an Enemy, houserule stuff) and Rapid Shot, so now sh*t's gonna get serious! Still my DPR won't be that good - until level 5. Adding DEX to damage is very good indeed; even better when Pistolero archetype does let you add DEX twice (as it has no 'X' in Gun Training check board at archetypes). A bit slimy from my part, but I know this GM quite well - I'll really need every bit of help in that area. He's a 'yes GM' anyway.
Damage and hit aside, I'm having a blast with it. I'm so used to spellcasters and melee that playing something quite different from them is very nice. I like the Grit mechanic, albeit being keyed to INT would be more useful. If you're looking for a fun class that doesn't NEED to be the best there is around, Gunslinger is my hint to ya. Of course, I alreayd like guns and military history, so playing a Gunslinger was a natural.
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even better when Pistolero archetype does let you add DEX twice (as it has no 'X' in Gun Training check board at archetypes). A bit slimy from my part, but I know this GM quite well - I'll really need every bit of help in that area. He's a 'yes GM' anyway.
Oh, come on, you know it's just a mistake from the PRD, same than the True Primitive indicating it doesn't change the Trap Sense ablity when it totally does in the description.
The pistolero is already potent enough to not in addition give her twice her Dexterity on each bullet she shoots.
even better when Pistolero archetype does let you add DEX twice (as it has no 'X' in Gun Training check board at archetypes). A bit slimy from my part, but I know this GM quite well - I'll really need every bit of help in that area. He's a 'yes GM' anyway.Oh, come on, you know it's just a mistake from the PRD, same than the True Primitive indicating it doesn't change the Trap Sense ablity when it totally does in the description.
The pistolero is already potent enough to not in addition give her twice her Dexterity on each bullet she shoots.
I typically just say it doesn't stack, so that I can still be a mysterious stranger/pistolero.
Lets use some common sense here though
in 3.5 the swordsage get to add its wisdom mod to its ac as long as its in light armor and it says
DOES NOT STACK WITH WIS ARMOR BONUS GAINED BY MONKS
but does not state that it didnt stack with the 3.5 ninjas wisdom ac bonus.
but its kind of known that it doesnt or my 3.5 ninjas ac would of been even higher than our dwarven defender.
Pistol training is the same as Musket training.
they both replace gun training also if they had put in the
"This replaces firearm training 1, 2, 3, and 4."
the print would of bled into the next page and just wouldnt of looked good.
probably left it out to keep everything on one page.
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sorry stealth elite, but i just browsed my copy of the book of 9 swords, and it does not say that a swordsages AC bonus doesn't stack with that of the monk. so By RAW, if you meet the conditions for both, they do stack.
they have slightly different circumstances. althought similar. and getting wisdom to AC twice (once each from 2 different class features) isn't the end of the world. you spent 3 levels, a headband, and who knows how many attribute points trying to keep up in AC with the guy who simply chose to wear plate. and now, raising your AC further costs a lot more coin compared to the guy who just decided to buy plate.
it was Monk and Ninja that didn't stack, but either one alone stacked with Swordsage.
should of looked before i typed but still they arent meant to be used together.
My Gms would personally not allow such obvious cheesing
lets assume you have a 20 dex and possibly 20 wis possibly to get with +X items
by level 3 as a swordsage2/3.5 ninja1
AC:25
touch:25
Flat footed:20
free weapon focus
no armor check penilties
as well as dex to damage
plus 2 stances, 7 known and 4 readied Manuevers
trapfinding and sudden strike
or
SS2/Monk1(insert arch here)
get all the above
+bonus feats
stunning fist
Flurry of blows
great saves
Increased unarmed strike damage
Flanking adj foes via the island of blades stance
no loss of run speed
seems to me kinda better of then the fighter trying to weight himself down to be effective
fighter 3
+1 full plate(10), +1 tower shield(5), maybe +1 from dex, ammy or ring giving +1
ac:27
Touch:11
flat footed:26
while taking a huge penalty to skill checks and speed
and since he is using a shield that means no THF so damage output suffers as well as losing to hit for using a tower shield.
personally id take the SS/monk anyday
That aside
I love the gunslinger class but its fine the way it is without people trying to twist things to make it overpowered
using the mysterious pistolaro example with the dex twice to damage and someone pumping dex 20 and cha to 18, could get you when using dual wielding double barrel pistols at level 6 and twf tree and rapid shot, rapid reload, deadly aim and PBS.
a possiblility of
5 attacks (10 when firing both barrels)
if all hit then:
10d8(pistol damage) + 10d6(UCAD) + 10(PBS) + 50(dex) + 50(dex again) + 40(DA) + 40(cha)
for only 2 grit points spent
*Edit* had to do the math and throw in Hammer the gap for fun
without hammer the gap
210-330 damage
with Hammer the gap
255-375
even better when Pistolero archetype does let you add DEX twice (as it has no 'X' in Gun Training check board at archetypes). A bit slimy from my part, but I know this GM quite well - I'll really need every bit of help in that area. He's a 'yes GM' anyway.Oh, come on, you know it's just a mistake from the PRD, same than the True Primitive indicating it doesn't change the Trap Sense ablity when it totally does in the description.
The pistolero is already potent enough to not in addition give her twice her Dexterity on each bullet she shoots.
You're truly right, but... it's an online document. Why they didn't fix it already? Shame on you, Paizo
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You're truly right, but... it's an online document. Why they didn't fix it already? Shame on you, Paizo
d20pfsrd isn't made by Paizo. The PRD is, and we have yet to see the Ultimate Combat full errata. Just saying this because, sincerely, kicking butts with a Pistolero is more than easy, especially if you go [url=TWFing with double-barreled pistols and you take Signature Deed at level 11 for Up, Close and Deadly - being able to shoot up to 8 bullets with a free 3d6 on each of them tends to sting.
getting wisdom to AC twice (once each from 2 different class features) isn't the end of the world.
Erm... maybe in 3.5. A Pathfinder monk would be absurdly broken, especially when we know you can already attain a 45 AC at level 12 with the proper build and magic items ; sacrificing indeed offense, but being a damn tank nonetheless.
Out of curiosity, how are people TWF with pistols?
My reading indicated that you wouldn't be able to reload at all since you need a free hand to do so. So unless you get an extra limb from some other class (prehinsile witch hair, tentacles or arms from the alchemist, etc.), use weapon cords to do strange little drop and redraw weapons, or just draw new guns from a gun brace, that it really didn't work.
Are people just ignoring this so they can get the cool effect of the TWF gunslinger? (actually not a bad way to go since it seems pretty intended that people can TWF).
Sean
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How is the gunslinger as a class? Is it a bit under the power curve?I'm playing as one. Started at level 3, just got to 4. I did only one attack per turn; it was kind suboptimal in damage - but I was hitting much more than my fellas. 1d8+nada hurt. At level 4 I got TWF (free feat by having an Enemy, houserule stuff) and Rapid Shot, so now sh*t's gonna get serious! Still my DPR won't be that good - until level 5. Adding DEX to damage is very good indeed; even better when Pistolero archetype does let you add DEX twice (as it has no 'X' in Gun Training check board at archetypes). A bit slimy from my part, but I know this GM quite well - I'll really need every bit of help in that area. He's a 'yes GM' anyway.
Damage and hit aside, I'm having a blast with it. I'm so used to spellcasters and melee that playing something quite different from them is very nice. I like the Grit mechanic, albeit being keyed to INT would be more useful. If you're looking for a fun class that doesn't NEED to be the best there is around, Gunslinger is my hint to ya. Of course, I alreayd like guns and military history, so playing a Gunslinger was a natural.
How's this? Two Double Barrel Masterwork Pistols, TWF, Rapid Reload, using the alchemical paper, bullet and powder combo to make a move action into a FREE action and Rapid Shot!!!
Yes, I'm having fun with my G/S - I'm constantly rolling through an allied occupied square then fire from the floor with guns blazing
TBH with all the hate for gunslingers, when you look at the cash they can generate for the party, by manufacturing firearms if your GM allows to go towards other gear, you just gotta love e'm :)
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Out of curiosity, how are people TWF with pistols?
My reading indicated that you wouldn't be able to reload at all since you need a free hand to do so. So unless you get an extra limb from some other class (prehinsile witch hair, tentacles or arms from the alchemist, etc.), use weapon cords to do strange little drop and redraw weapons, or just draw new guns from a gun brace, that it really didn't work.
Are people just ignoring this so they can get the cool effect of the TWF gunslinger? (actually not a bad way to go since it seems pretty intended that people can TWF).
Sean
With all the fun i'm having I'm still 'rules lawyering'. It's like this:
Both 2 barrel pistols loaded, roll initiative, fire off all four bullets, each gun is on a length of leather cord(Tuco Style from The Good, The Bad and the Ugly) drop a pistol, reload both weapons as a FREE action, using rapid Reload and Alchemical Paper Bullet Thingy, Take hold of 'dropped' pistol on a cord around the neck BAng Bang! Bang Bang Repeat...Sorted!
To change the subject from TWF a bit - and this has probably been beaten to death in some other hate gunslinger thread - but what has been the consensus on the touch attack for the gun range?
Haven't played a gunslinger yet, my party's game is mid-run when the book came out, but the general complaint with the class has been the touch attack. I personally like it but think the modern gun rules for touch attack for their max range increment is ridicules! We have already decided when we incorporate guns next game to house-rule touch ac + natural armor.
Of course its hard to see how a colossal creature with fullplate or some kind of armor of 3+ feet of steel could be bypassed by a bullet.
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I personally like it but think the modern gun rules for touch attack for their max range increment is ridicules! We have already decided when we incorporate guns next game to house-rule touch ac + natural armor.
Of course its hard to see how a colossal creature with fullplate or some kind of armor of 3+ feet of steel could be bypassed by a bullet.
It is bypassed for the same reason that any people hit with a bullet while wearing a bullet-proof vest could explain you.
The Touch AC thing is not overpowered, at same level an archer hitting full AC still deals more damage.|
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should of looked before i typed but still they arent meant to be used together.
My Gms would personally not allow such obvious cheesing
lets assume you have a 20 dex and possibly 20 wis possibly to get with +X items
Where the Hell are you Getting 20 Dex and 20 Wis by 3rd level?
you blew 3 levels of progression to pull this off. that will hinder any other class you take by a lot. unless you do SS/Monk. where your progression is still hindered.
lets see, there is no way it can be done though base stats without one of the following.
A; Really Damn High Rolled Stats, where then your campaign is already broken and it's your fault as DM for making players roll stats when you didn't want such absurdly overpowered characters
B; Really high powered point buy allotment where your campaign is already screwed and again, it's your fault as DM for giving the PCs too many points
C; the king of all Monty Hauls, where it's your fault for giving your PCs access to all this wealth way before the appropriate level.
or D; allowing a race with extremely high racial attribute modifiers without accounting for the Creature's overall power level. where it's your fault as DM for allowing this overpowered race.
the pistolero does not stack Dex Twice, because "Pistol Training" replaces "Gun Training".
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the pistolero does not stack Dex Twice, because "Pistol Training" replaces "Gun Training".
Well, technically, nope, by RAW Pistol training doesn't replace Gun Training, since it is written nowhere.
By RAI, it obviously does. And I wouldn't care if any player in my game used the RAW excuse to pull this off, he would only deserve a critical hit from my vorpal rulebook.
I personally like it but think the modern gun rules for touch attack for their max range increment is ridicules! We have already decided when we incorporate guns next game to house-rule touch ac + natural armor.
Of course its hard to see how a colossal creature with fullplate or some kind of armor of 3+ feet of steel could be bypassed by a bullet.
It is bypassed for the same reason that any people hit with a bullet while wearing a bullet-proof vest could explain you.
The Touch AC thing is not overpowered, at same level an archer hitting full AC still deals more damage.
How do you figure realistically that if you have plated armor covering any joint or weak spot, except maybe the eyes through a helmet, a bullet can do its full damage to said opponent just by hitting him. With only the DEX saving his ass if he can "move" out of the way.
Now take the same opponent, make him a creature with high natural armor under the plate, increase him to colossal size, and you STILL hit him for full damage rolls just because he couldn't "move" out of the way. Just because you hit something doesn't mean you can actually bypass protection to do damage. Full armor class represents this more accurately.
Maybe, i can see the point for anyone wearing other armor besides some kind of heavy armor that protects the whole body. But no way should natural armor, at least, be figured into the touch ac somehow.
But no way should natural armor, at least, be figured into the touch ac somehow.Excuse me, nat amr SHOULD be figured in somewhere. How do you bypass that just by hitting it?
Where the Hell are you Getting 20 Dex and 20 Wis by 3rd level?
you blew 3 levels of progression to pull this off. that will hinder any other class you take by a lot. unless you do SS/Monk. where your progression is still hindered.
lets see, there is no way it can be done though base stats without one of the following.
youre right 20 dex and wisdom is way to high but ill take your challenge
20 PB
no stat lower than 8
human for the race
WBL standard of 3000 gold by level 3
character will playable
Human Monk1/Sword sage2
Str 12, dex 16, con 12, wis 18, cha 8
AC:24[26 with crane stance,28/ 30 with mobility] (bracers of armor +1, dex +3, Ring of protection +1, wisdom +8, dodge +1
Touch:23[25 crane style] (dex +3, wisdom +8, dodge +1, Ring of protection +1)
Flat footed: 20 (wisdom +8, BoA +1, RoP +1)
CMD: 23 (10 + 1 BAB + 1str + 3dex + 8wis)
Fort: 4
Ref: 9
Will: 10
Speed: 30 ft
Feats: Combat intuition(wisdom based weapon finesse), Shadow Blade (dex added to damage), Dodge*, weapon focus*, Improved unarmed strike*, Stunning fist*, crane stance, mobility.
Gained abilities: Maneuvers, Shadow stance: Island of blades which allows you and allies to flank just for being adjacent to foes, Flurry of blows
Gold went to: Ring of protection(1000) and bracers of armor +1(1000), cloak of resistance +1 (1000
No armor check penalty
Human Fighter 3
19 str, 13 dex, 14 con, 13 int, 8 wis, 8 cha
AC: 27 (9 Full plate + 1 dex + 1 dodge + 1 CE + 1 RoP, +4 tower shield)
Touch: 14 (1 dex + 1 dodge + 1 CE + RoP)
Flat footed: 24 (9 Full plate + 1 RoP, +4 tower shield)
CMD: 18 (10 + 3 bab + 4 str + 1 dex)
Fort: 5
Ref: 2
Will: 2
Speed: 20 ft
Feats: Combat expertise, Dodge, power attack, weapon focus, Iron Will, Cleave
Class features: bravery +1 and armor training 1
Armor check penalty: -10 or -16(not sure if you stack the ACP from the full plate and tower shield)
all in all Id rather have the Swordsage monk, its just more well rounded and a party player.
Back to Gunslingers
If advanced firearms are a problem make them extremely rare, as they are supposed to be.
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How do you figure realistically that if you have plated armor covering any joint or weak spot, except maybe the eyes through a helmet, a bullet can do its full damage to said opponent just by hitting him. With only the DEX saving his ass if he can "move" out of the way.
Now take the same opponent, make him a creature with high natural armor under the plate, increase him to colossal size, and you STILL hit him for full damage rolls just because he couldn't "move" out of the way. Just because you hit something doesn't mean you can actually bypass protection to do damage. Full armor class represents this more accurately.
Maybe, i can see the point for anyone wearing other armor besides some kind of heavy armor that protects the whole body. But no way should natural armor, at least, be figured into the touch ac somehow.
How do you figure realistically that rapiers may be used against full-plates and natural armor covering any joint or weak spot and deal any damage at all, even if you have to hit full AC ?
How do you figure the effects of fireballs on anachronistic barbarians wearing prehistoric-fantasy bone armor and medieval warhammer ?Heck, how do you figure a medium sized creature dealing any damage at all to a colossal creature without using some kind of hyper poison ?
You make a good point. I guess since guns are real i have a harder time with the touch rules and range increment. I guess i need a stand alone thread to see what people think about this balancing. I'm still new to this class.
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All I'm saying is that when it comes to firearms, people have a way too much simulationist look over the mechanics. ;)
While it seems to make more sense to add natural armor to AC against firearms, please remember that you hit Touch AC only at close range, when the penetration value of the bullet is to it's highest. You still have to deal with natural armor when doing attacks at medium-to-long range, unless you specifically spend grit to increase Touch AC range.
Also, bullets, while hitting touch AC, still suffer from any potential Damage Reduction. The game is already balanced around the gunslinger and firearms, so if you nerf them to add natural armor against bullets, you need to give something else to compensate.
EDIT : Also, beware of the Advanced Firearms ; these should not get in your campaign unless you are in a setting where defenses against bullets are commonplace. Hitting Touch AC from so far is way too good, even as a wondrous item, or it should be a high level, costly, low powered one.
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i know the SS/Monk has better AC at the lower levels, but by focusing so heavily on defense, its offense begins to suck drastically compared to a fighter and lags behind. so i suggest we also include an offense focused fighter.
and since the SS/Monk is using 3.5 material, lets give the fighter the same privelege. the monk is using monk fix material, lets have the fighter use fighter fix material.
lets set up a snapshot of level 10. lets try to include at least 3 viable magical backup weapons that aren't your primary weapon. and ammunition (Ammunition on it's own doesn't count as a backup weapon) for any usable ranged weapons these can be the same or similar type if you wish. i mean this for every character involved in the comparison, even the SS/Monk.
EDIT : Also, beware of the Advanced Firearms ; these should not get in your campaign unless you are in a setting where defenses against bullets are commonplace. Hitting Touch AC from so far is way too good, even as a wondrous item, or it should be a high level, costly, low powered one.
Agreed if you as the GM want to use these your gonna need something to balance it out or it would get ridiculous.
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EDIT : Also, beware of the Advanced Firearms ; these should not get in your campaign unless you are in a setting where defenses against bullets are commonplace. Hitting Touch AC from so far is way too good, even as a wondrous item, or it should be a high level, costly, low powered one.Agreed if you as the GM want to use these your gonna need something to balance it out or it would get ridiculous.
why restrict advanced firearms? they are only there so the gunslinger doesn't suck. and even with access to them, and archer attacking full AC still outdamages them. the fact that guns have crappy range increments itself balances out shooting so far.
as an example, a revolver has a 20 foot range increment, and can target touch AC up to 5 increments away. each increment is an additional -2 to hit. 5 increments away (100 feet) is essentially a -8 to hit. which means that firing a revolver from 100 feet away effectively treats a foe as if they effectively had +8 to thier touch AC. a huge penalty. and if we assumed you maxed out Dex/Wis and dumped STR, you can't really carry a lot of ammo.
now, reloading a revolver is a move action, or free action for the price of a feat tax. and requires 2 hands to do so.
extra attacks come with penalties attached. and the "advantage" of an Advanced firearm is merely compensation for a crappy range increment.
there are also all sorts of AC bonuses to augment your touch AC.
Sacred, Profane, Circumstance, Deflection, Insight, Luck, Dodge, Alchemical, Morale, inflicting penalties on enemy attacks, cover/concealment, and a lot of these can be aqcuired through spells or items.
an archer attacking Full AC does more damage.
EDIT : Also, beware of the Advanced Firearms ; these should not get in your campaign unless you are in a setting where defenses against bullets are commonplace. Hitting Touch AC from so far is way too good, even as a wondrous item, or it should be a high level, costly, low powered one.Agreed if you as the GM want to use these your gonna need something to balance it out or it would get ridiculous.
Couldn't disagree more. First: guns cost like rare and powerful magical items, so you pay for what you get. Second: they do low damage compared to an average magic weapon of the same cost. Third: by this reasoning (balance out what you think it's overpowered by putting stuff in the setting with the only purpose is to contrast what the PC can do, which is very bad form by the way), you should include only mosters with damage reduction if you have a barbarian in your party, only opponents with spell resistance if you have a sorcerer, only monsters that are NOT anyone's favoured enemies if you have a ranger, and so on... And this one-upping between the players and the GM can only bring doom to the table.
Seriously, people: Gunslingers hit almost every time, and do very little damage to compensate. That's like the entire point of the Gunslinger, gameplay wise. What's so hard to accept about that?
I guess i should point out I'm talking about the guns everywhere rules not simply the advanced firearms. The guns on their own are fine if you DM is cool with them.
@Luminere Range penalties are easily cut in half by any gunslinger who wants to fight at range for only 1 feat and lets be honest that -4 to hit isn't stopping anyone. Throw distance on their and your golden for a lot farther than 100ft.
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I'll just say this : Pistolero, level 12, normal wealth, 20 point-buy, TWFing with two +2 revolvers, "Up, Close And Deadly" signature deed.
BAB : +12/+7/+2
Ranged : +19/+14/+9
Rapid Shot, TWFing, Weapon Focus, +2 Revolvers, Deadly Aim :
+12/+12/+7/+2 +12/+7 against Touch AC (a CR 12 monster has an average of 9 Touch AC according to the d20pfsrd's bestiary).
Damage : 1d8+17+3d6 per bullet, 6 bullets fired on average (did I mention the previous build doesn't include the benefits of Haste, including one more attack ?), may hit touch AC from 100 Ft, or 40 ft without range penalty if using distance revolvers.
And while your weapon may misfire (at least, until level 13, when the pistolero is immune to misfires...), it may not explode, thus the -2 to attack, damage and the 20x2 multiplier doesn't hurt so much on average.
I would simply not put revolvers on the game if they aren't commonplace ; or else they should be a unique weapon crafted in a rare metal with unknown but incredible craftmanship, thus forcing you to go closer if you want to TWF with it and another kind of pistol.
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Seriously, people: Gunslingers hit almost every time, and do very little damage to compensate. That's like the entire point of the Gunslinger, gameplay wise. What's so hard to accept about that?
I'm the first to accept it.
I'm also the first to advise against using advanced firearms if you are not in a setting where guns are everywhere, because I saw it myself on the game, and we saw it several times since the UC is out and people/DM come on the forums explaining their problem with the gunslinger - only to find out that the player was given an advanced firearm by mistake and thus steamrolls fights from the other side of the planet.And if you think you need advanced firearms at all to be good with a gunslinger, you probably never saw a high level double-barelled pistolero wielder. It's like the previous build, only it's closer and shoots two bullets per attack, so a potential 28 shots on one round.
You know, in real life (and here comes the boos), early firearms such as the one's the Gunslinger uses (unless you allow for revolvers and all, lol) really didn't penetrate armor very well at anything above point-blank range. Even as late as the Napoleonic Wars, there are confirmed cases of a steel plate cuirass stopping a musket ball.
Of course, at typical D&D (or Pathfinder, I use both terms interchangably) ranges for combat (0-100' or so) they would punch right through. Which is one reason I don't like using the gunslinger--the touch AC to hit would be far more appropriate for 18th, 19th, and 20th century firearms, not 15th, 16th, or 17th.
Master Arminas
It's all because of the nature of hp that guns hit touch AC at close range. Getting shot with a bullet is going to hurt, no matter if your armor stopped it. So you take hp damage. Which is one reason I'm using Armor as DR and Wounds and Vigor in my gun-heavy campaign next.
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sorry, but the Early firearms only target Touch AC in the first increment. with is effectively point blank for most. if you go by the ruling of Point Blank Shot.
and @Talonhawk
even a penalty of -4 is still a penalty. and monsters aren't the only foes you face. and Distance is a +1 bonus, which makes enchanting your gun cost even more.
The Distance Property is a gold tax the archer doesn't need to pay
Far Shot is a Feat Tax the Archer Didn't need to take
Rapid Reload is another Feat Tax that The Archer Didn't Need to take either
bullets cost more too.
to use and advanced firearm, you need metal cartridges, which are bought for 20 gold pieces, or crafted for 2 gold pieces.
you can buy 20 arrows for 1 gold piece or craft 60 arrows for 1 gold piece.
Effectively, Ammunition for Advanced Firearms Cost 120 times as much to craft as an arrow per shot.
magic longbows are a lot easier to aquire than magic revolvers, and they are cheaper as well.
and it's also cheaper to Bypass DR with arrows than bullets.
blowing through arrows is blowing through pocket change, blowing through bullets is like wasting a mid level potion every round.
i don't know how many people would actually want to blow through multiple hundreds of gold pieces per combat. reminds me of the Samurai from final fantasy 5.
Archers also can't add dex to damage Can't target touch ac .
Precise shot is a Feat tax on the Archer that any decent Gunslinger can do without.
If the archer makes his own arrows he can't make the 1000gp worth the gunslinger can a day.
High level archers don't get to just decide that they didn't die when they otherwise would be killed.
We can fire things one class does better than the other back and forth all day that doesn't make either of us right.
Archers also can't add dex to damage Can't target touch ac .
Precise shot is a Feat tax on the Archer that any decent Gunslinger can do without.
If the archer makes his own arrows he can't make the 1000gp worth the gunslinger can a day.
High level archers don't get to just decide that they didn't die when they otherwise would be killed.
We can fire things one class does better than the other back and forth all day that doesn't make either of us right.
I'm going to quote someone else:"Call me when the gunslinger is better than a caster."
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Archers may not be able to Get Dex To damage. but they do benefit from a nice strength, making them fairly better switch hitters than the gunslinger. a minor advantage to multiple attribute dependancy. and thier CMD will be higher. and more strength means you can carry a better stocked backup arsenal. it's cheaper to invest in multiple mediocre stats than 1 super stat.
High levels archers may not get to cheat death, but the Gunslinger needs huge amount of Grit to do that. which is just too rare a resource. the Gunslinger gets a daily resource that is rarer than finding drinkable water in a desert.
Archers, have more Feats than a Gunslinger. and can take feats that make them even better.
since the Gunslinger chose not to take precise shot, he won't be able to take Clustered Shots either. and without precise shot, the Gunslinger may as well always have a -4 to his attack rolls.
and the gunslinger has to blow a feat on Deft shootist deed because he has to be in the Suicide Range to gain full the benefit of his weapons. because, if he isn't in melee, he is easily within a closeable gap that the monster he is facing needs at Most, a 5 foot step.
sorry, but you cannot reliably 2 weapon fight with firearms every round, you need a free hand to reload your gun.
but a bow can still be reloaded with a free hand and get pretty similar to TWF. because manyshot is i beleive, bow exclusive. and guns only hold so much ammo at once before you need to reload.
with the "Gun" doing 2WF, you would be doing (At level 10) 5 attacks every 2 rounds without haste and need to reload on the 3rd and maybe the 4th. or without it 2WF. 3 attacks a round. either way, you will need to reload after the second round.
with the bow doing rapid shot/many shot, (at level 10) you will get 4 attacks a round without haste, and you can still fire after the second round. and with feat investment, make attacks of oppurtunity without having to worry about reloading. which is awesome when combined with combat reflexes. though not neccessarily reccomended. or you can combine your bow with a spiked gauntlet.
your strength may not be as high as the Gunslinger's Dexterity, but you can get the weapon focus line alongside weapon training, smite evil, or favored enemy. and make the gunslinger look pathetic. as long as you didn't dump strength. and that composite longbow is still cheaper than that gun. easily affording you more magical equipment that the gunslinger will have a hard time affording.
since the gunslinger blows hundreds of gold per fight, and you blow only pocket change, you can, over the course of a level or few worth of combat encounters, have a better array of magical equipment than the gunslinger. which i think is better than a nonscaling Dex to damage. and most properly built archers will have such high attack bonuses that they still hit reliably most of the time from further away.
Can you plz explain how your shooting 200 times in a fight.
Your saying hundreds of gold so lets go simple and with you saying hundreds is 200g the most cheapest bullets are gonna be about 1.1g a shot thats some long combat there.
Read some threads there are plenty of ways to make your full attacks every round with 2 pistols just seach the forums.
Not gonna argue with you on this one I love my gunslinger period continue your thoughts that its a failure.
@Luminiere Solas
Here you go, Level 10, 20 pb, no stat under 8, WBL 10
Starting stats
Str 12, dex 16, con 12, int 8, wis 18, cha 8
Level 10 stats
Str 12, dex 16, con 12, int 8, wis 24, cha 8
AC: 35(39 if ki spent)
Touch: 33(37 if ki spent)
Flat footed: 29
Snake stance AC: 1d20 + 28(29 if including traits)
Free attack deflect per round via crane style
BAB: +7/+2
CMB: +9
CMD: 35
Fort: 9
Ref: 14
Will: 18
Speed:50ft
Init: +3
Combat:
Weapon Attack bonus Damage Crit
Unarmed Strike +14/+9 2d6 + 11 x2
Stances:
-Child of Shadow:As long as you move 10 feet you gain 20% concealment.
-Island of blades:allies only need to be Adj to you and the enemy to flank.
Maneuvers:
-Distracting ember(Boost: summons a fire elemental to flank a foe for one turn)
-Counter charge(Counter: Redirect a foes charge in another direction negating the charge)
-Wolf Fang Strikes(Attack: make two attacks)
-Clinging Shadow Strike(Attack: foe struck gains a 20% miss chance)
-Shadow Blade Technique(Attack: roll the attack twice, if you take the lower roll then the attack deals an extra 1d6 cold damage)
-Steely Strike(Attack: gain a +4 to the attack roll, gain a -4 ac for one round)
-Rabid wolf strike(Attack:+4 to the attack, plus 2d6 extra damage, -4 AC for 1 round
Special abilities:
Stunning Fist 8/day, DC 24
Evasion
High jump
Still mind
Purity of body
Wholeness of Body
Ki pool (11)
Feats:
5 from level
1 from swordsage
1 from human
5 from monk
total=12
-Combat Intuition
-Shadow blade
-Crane I
-Crane II
-Crane III
-Snake I
-Snake III
-Combat Reflexes
-Skill focus: sense motive
-Improved unarmed strike
-Weapon Focus
-Stunning fist
Standard defensive strategy:
-Force opponent to miss on attacks and take extra attacks from snake style AoOs and crane style retaliation attacks.(using Stunning fist when possibe)
-Use counter charge to negate enemy charge attacks
-Use crane Style to deflect attack made at opponent’s highest BAB
-Use Snake Style to deflect opponent’s next highest attack with Sense motive AC
(at level 10 unless hasted, enemies with class levels will have no more than 2 attacks albeit TWF in which case they are already adding penalties to their attacks)
-Rely on decent AC to negate opponent’s remaining attacks, if any
Standard offensive strategy:
Remain mobile and use offensive maneuvers to increase chances to hit and land stunning fists.
Magic items:
Amulet of mighty fists +2: collision(20000 gold)
Headband of Wisdom +4(16000 gold)
Monks Robe(13000 gold)
Bracers of Armor +2(4000 gold)
Cloak of resistance +2(4000 gold)
Ki straps(5000 gold)
Total gold spent: 62000(WBL 10)
Back to gunslingers
For those of you that have not actually tried playing a Gunslinger, go play one before you try and fix something that isnt broken.
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at least you like your character.
i don't personally hate the concept of the gunslinger. i just don't like it's impracticality in an AP or similar campaign. it's one of those fringe classes with very little support. and it always will be.
the problem with a fringe class with very little support, is that you won't find much material that supports it. usually this is due to an Exotic Mechanic or unique equipment of some kind.
in the case of unique equipment, you shouldn't expect to see much of it in an AP, making upgrades hard to find. and in the case of an exotic mechanic, there will be very little page space devoted to that exotic mechanic.
the 3.5 designers eventually got lazy, and instead of designing new spell lists, they started recycling core lists. the classes that didn't get these core lists failed to compete.
Sorry about this...about to show my ignorance, but in reading this - I get that you can reload a firearm as a free action, but with TWF can you reload 2 weapons as a single free action? Or wouldn't that be considered 2 free actions and still take 2 rounds to complete.
With all the fun i'm having I'm still 'rules lawyering'. It's like this:Both 2 barrel pistols loaded, roll initiative, fire off all four bullets, each gun is on a length of leather cord(Tuco Style from The Good, The Bad and the Ugly) drop a pistol, reload both weapons as a FREE action using rapid Reload and Alchemical Paper Bullet Thingy, Take hold of 'dropped' pistol on a cord around the neck BAng Bang! Bang Bang Repeat...Sorted!