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Hi all, I know this might be a newbie question, so sorry for the trouble.
I got a +2 Wis Headband that I want boosted to a +3. However, my party's Wizard (who is also our Magic Items Enchanter) told me that even if I have the gold, he can't enchant it as a Headband of Mental Prowess-type item has a Caster Level of 8 and therefore he needs to be level 8 as a Wizard before he can enchant it. (He is at level 6 now.)
This kinda confuses me, as I read through the rules on magic item creation and the only items with a special prerequisite that requires the creator's caster level to be of a certain value are Magic Armor and Magic Weapons, which requires the caster to be x3 the enchantment value.
Under the Wondrous Items section, this special prerequisite does not seems to be required.
So is there a Caster Level requirement/prerequisite on the Creator for Wondrous Items? or can you make any Wondrous item as long as you can cast the required spells and pay the cost?
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Hi all, I know this might be a newbie question, so sorry for the trouble.
I got a +2 Wis Headband that I want boosted to a +3. However, my party's Wizard (who is also our Magic Items Enchanter) told me that even if I have the gold, he can't enchant it as a Headband of Mental Prowess-type item has a Caster Level of 8 and therefore he needs to be level 8 as a Wizard before he can enchant it. (He is at level 6 now.)
This kinda confuses me, as I read through the rules on magic item creation and the only items with a special prerequisite that requires the creator's caster level to be of a certain value are Magic Armor and Magic Weapons, which requires the caster to be x3 the enchantment value.
Under the Wondrous Items section, this special prerequisite does not seems to be required.
So is there a Caster Level requirement/prerequisite on the Creator for Wondrous Items? or can you make any Wondrous item as long as you can cast the required spells and pay the cost?
The requirements for making a headband of Inspired Wisdom are listed at the bottom of the item info:
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, owl's wisdom; Cost 2,000 gp (+2), 8,000 gp (+4), 18,000 gp (+6)
That is all.
the biggest problem with this is a +3 wisdom headband is a custom item. By defaults, you could push it to a +4 for an additional 6,000 gp, or a +6 for an additional 16,000 gp.|
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Hi all, I know this might be a newbie question, so sorry for the trouble.
I got a +2 Wis Headband that I want boosted to a +3. However, my party's Wizard (who is also our Magic Items Enchanter) told me that even if I have the gold, he can't enchant it as a Headband of Mental Prowess-type item has a Caster Level of 8 and therefore he needs to be level 8 as a Wizard before he can enchant it. (He is at level 6 now.)
This kinda confuses me, as I read through the rules on magic item creation and the only items with a special prerequisite that requires the creator's caster level to be of a certain value are Magic Armor and Magic Weapons, which requires the caster to be x3 the enchantment value.
Under the Wondrous Items section, this special prerequisite does not seems to be required.
So is there a Caster Level requirement/prerequisite on the Creator for Wondrous Items? or can you make any Wondrous item as long as you can cast the required spells and pay the cost?
The requirements for making a headband of Inspired Wisdom are listed at the bottom of the item info:
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, owl's wisdom; Cost 2,000 gp (+2), 8,000 gp (+4), 18,000 gp (+6)
The exact stats aside. IS there a Caster Level requirement? Or is my Wizard player mis-quoting a the rules? (Maybe from 3.5)?
the biggest problem with this is a +3 wisdom headband is a custom item. By defaults, you could push it to a +4 for an additional 6,000 gp, or a +6 for an additional 16,000 gp.
Wait a min, so items that "custom" cannot be upgraded/added to once you made them?
How does is this part of the Magic Item Creation rules work?:
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection 2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
The CL of the item just determines the DC to ID it, the DC to craft it, and the effect of any spells it can do.
You do not need to be that CL to make it, unless "Must be X CL" is in the Requirements section.
The reason that +3 headbands of whatever do not exist is because it's worth different amounts for different people. Someone with 14 Wisdom will be paying a lot more for...basically nothing above a +2, but someone with 15 Wisdom suddenly got what is effectively a +4 Headband of Wisdom for much cheaper.
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The exact stats aside. IS there a Caster Level requirement? Or is my Wizard player mis-quoting a the rules? (Maybe from 3.5)?
Wait a min, so items that "custom" cannot be upgraded/added to once you made them?
How does is this part of the Magic Item Creation rules work?:
There is no caster level requirements, only what is listed at the bottom of the headband. Some items may have a caster level listed down there, but most do not. What he is seeing is the CL:8 at the top of the item, which just sets the item strength versus dispelling and such like that, and also helps to set the base DC for crafting.
Sure, you can upgrade a headband from +2 to +3, but since the headbands are only listed as +2, +4, and +6, a +3 headband is a custom item. It is up to the GM to allow custom items. This is just a blanket statement for custom items. Some GM's will only go with what is in the book as pre-built items so that they do not have to worry about odd items and balance, while others are much more adventurous on working new items into the game balance and pricing.
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The CL of the item just determines the DC to ID it, the DC to craft it, and the effect of any spells it can do.
You do not need to be that CL to make it, unless "Must be X CL" is in the Requirements section.
The reason that +3 headbands of whatever do not exist is because it's worth different amounts for different people. Someone with 14 Wisdom will be paying a lot more for...basically nothing above a +2, but someone with 15 Wisdom suddenly got what is effectively a +4 Headband of Wisdom for much cheaper.
Whew, now I need to let my wizard know he is not limit by the CL of magic items to make them. (Other then Armor and Weapons.)
On the +3 topic: I am getting kinda confused. The "Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" table list Ability bonus (enhancement) as Bonus squared x 1,000 gp. Since the cost of a +3 ability item is clear when using this formula, (3x2)x1000 = 6000gp, why can't a +3 ability item be made?
I mean why even bother to list something like that if making magical items are limited to only the Pre-made items list?
Am I getting something wrong here?
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Just because a +3 headband doesn't exist as a standard item doesn't mean you can't custom create one. The formula for the cost is there to ensure it's balanced.
that formula does not ensure that it is all balanced, from the PRD:
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
The old example of this is the continuous item of true strike.
(this is a rough estimate, I am sure that I am wrong in here somewhere)By that formula, this would fit in the following:
Spell level * Caster level * 2000 *4 = 8000 gp for a first level caster, first level spell.
this would allow someone to have a continuous +20 to hit via spell effect.
It would be better to price it out as a weapon enchantment even if it is a spell effect. this would be an 800,000 gp item that way..
Pricing magic items is more of an art form then a formula. Those formula are there as a guideline and not a hard pricing list.
I was just explaining the reasoning of Paizo for not including a +3 Headband of Stat Boostin'.
Those guidelines are there to give you a rough idea of the price, but I think they assume that each item (especially stat boosting ones that help everyone) would be the same degree of usefulness to everyone.
Your +3 Headband of stat boosting is essentially a +4 item to you, but a +2 to your friend with an even stat number.
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There is no caster level requirements, only what is listed at the bottom of the headband. Some items may have a caster level listed down there, but most do not. What he is seeing is the CL:8 at the top of the item, which just sets the item strength versus dispelling and such like that, and also helps to set the base DC for crafting.
Wait a min, so what the CL:8 really means is the DC you need to have in Craft(headbands/hat/etc) to MAKE the base mundane item? (and vs dispell etc.)
So if say he buys a silver headband and then enchant it, he does not really need to even make that DC for craft... or in the case of Wonderous Items, he can even just use a Spellcraft check.
If this is so... I am so going to have to refresh his ideal of what he CAN and CANNOT make... =_=!!!
Sure, you can upgrade a headband from +2 to +3, but since the headbands are only listed as +2, +4, and +6, a +3 headband is a custom item. It is up to the GM to allow custom items. This is just a blanket statement for custom items. Some GM's will only go with what is in the book as pre-built items so that they do not have to worry about odd items and balance, while others are much more adventurous on working new items into the game balance and pricing.
Just because a +3 headband doesn't exist as a standard item doesn't mean you can't custom create one. The formula for the cost is there to ensure it's balanced.
I was just explaining the reasoning of Paizo for not including a +3 Headband of Stat Boostin'.
Those guidelines are there to give you a rough idea of the price, but I think they assume that each item (especially stat boosting ones that help everyone) would be the same degree of usefulness to everyone.
Your +3 Headband of stat boosting is essentially a +4 item to you, but a +2 to your friend with an even stat number.
So as long as my DM approves it. It is possible to make +3 items/odd number/additional powers items, like a +2 clock of resistance with invisibility?
As long as its not unbalancing a game, it is possible to slowly "upgrade" an item, 1 point at a time right?
The base DC of creating a magical item is 5+the Caster Level of the item.
Yes, it is possible to make a +3 stat boosting item. I was merely explaining why Paizo didn't make one.
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The base DC of creating a magical item is 5+the Caster Level of the item.
Yes, it is possible to make a +3 stat boosting item. I was merely explaining why Paizo didn't make one.
Thanks for explaining it.
I'm just frustrated by the layers upon layers of rules for each different item and the addition of "non-existence" rules by my wizard player.
Sorry if it comes across as a "Why not!" reply. I just need clarification on this rules badly. Thanks again.
If you don't want to deal with creating "custom" items, just tell them so. You are under no obligation to let your players use the custom item rules.
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Howie fails his will save and engages in a PFRPG magic item creation conversation.
The DC listed for a magic item is not a prerequisite for creating the item. This is errata from 3e that was carried over (and errata'd out) into 3.5, and then carried over again (and errata'd out again) into PF.
It isn't even for setting the DC for the creation of the item itself. See the FAQ entry for a pearl of power here. Many groups do use it that way, but note that the pearl of power that Sean is talking about has a listed CL of 17, yet he speaks of creating it at much lower CL. Using the listed CL of an object to set the DC is inconsistent with the FAQ entry.
The PF developers added a requirement for a Spellcraft check for creating an object, based upon the CL of the object. They never defined how that CL is determined. The text from the PRD itself for CL reads, "For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself." This sort of begs the question. It isn't determined by the listing for the item, it's determined by the item itself. The FAQ above suggests that the item can be created at any level satisfied by the prerequisites. My take on it is that the Wisdom boosting item can be created at CL3 or higher (required to cast owl's wisdom). The typical responses that are seen on these forums on the matter are repeating what has been said by other posters; to my mind, it's one of those errors that has filtered into the community consciousness. YMMV.
As for a +3 item, the scaled cost for a +3 item is 3 squared * 1000, not 3*2*1000, so it would be 9k gold. It isn't a listed item, which puts it in the GM's hand in determining what would be required to make it and the specified cost. It has a marginal utility that is greater than a +2 item, and less than a +4. It is of use to those with an odd score. I personally allow them and provide them on the indicated price scale. And again, YMMV.
The PRD is actually really, really clear on what the DC to create a magic item is:
The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item.
So the DC to make a pearl of power is 5+17 (its CL) = 23.
You do not need to have a caster level of 17 to make it, it's just the power level of the item.
That is, unless you use the optional rule that SKR mentions, whereby the CL is actually the minimum level your class needs to be to cast spells of that level.
In which case, a first level Pearl of Power would have a DC of 6 to make (5+1), a 2nd level one would have a DC of 8 (5 + 3) and a third level one would have a DC of 10 (5 + 5).
To be honest, I see far, far more people saying that the CL is not a requirement. I haven't seen anyone say otherwise, so unless I'm vastly misinterpretting Howie's post, I'm not sure how this is something that has "filtered into the community".
The FAQ listed is just for pearls of power, not in general.
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The PRD is actually really, really clear on what the DC to create a magic item is:
The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item.So the DC to make a pearl of power is 5+17 (its CL) = 23.
You do not need to have a caster level of 17 to make it, it's just the power level of the item.
This actually illustrates what I'm talking about regarding what has filtered into the community. What you are describing as "really, really clear" is anything but. The DC is based on the caster level of the item. We agree on that. What we don't agree on is what the caster level of the item is. Is it the CL listed in the item's description or is it the CL of the specific item that is created? The CL in the listing predates PF's addition of the Spellcraft DC check. It is a representative CL of a typically found item. It is there for determining the effect of spells like dispel magic. That's it.
That is, unless you use the optional rule that SKR mentions, whereby the CL is actually the minimum level your class needs to be to cast spells of that level.
In which case, a first level Pearl of Power would have a DC of 6 to make (5+1), a 2nd level one would have a DC of 8 (5 + 3) and a third level one would have a DC of 10 (5 + 5).
I'm not sure how the FAQ gets categorized as an optional rule. What I see is SKR providing an example that the DC of the item is determined at the caster's option, with a minimum based on what's being created. If Wizbang, a third level caster, makes a 1st level pearl of power at CL3, that CL3 is the CL for that item. A statblock for that item would show CL3, not CL17. The CL3 would be the relative power of that item. There is no universal "power level" for pearls of power at CL17.
To be honest, I see far, far more people saying that the CL is not a requirement. I haven't seen anyone say otherwise, so unless I'm vastly misinterpretting Howie's post, I'm not sure how this is something that has "filtered into the community".
Correct, CL isn't a requirement. We agree on that. What was not understood as what "filtered into the community" is the idea that the CL of the item listing, in general, has any importance for the specific item created by Wizbang....the one he is holding in his hand and which he just created.
The FAQ listed is just for pearls of power, not in general.
Why? What makes pearls of power special? What makes more sense, that pearls of power have different rules or that this was taken as an example because the listed, generalized CL17 is so out of whack with the prerequisites, and thus provided a more extreme example?
What you see as really, really clear is at the heart of what think is quite unclear. It's one of the reasons that I generally don't get involved in magic item creation discussions. I won't get heavily involved in this one either. If nothing else, call it an alternative point of view, even if viewed as having little value. :)
Good Gaming!
Howie fails his will save and engages in a PFRPG magic item creation conversation.
Howie - next time you level up take Iron Will and then Improved Iron Will to have a better chance of making your save ;-)
but seriously, the whole magic item crafting rules need a serious review, revision and rewrite to clarify a whole range of issues, requirements and terminology.
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I got a +2 Wis Headband that I want boosted to a +3. However, my party's Wizard (who is also our Magic Items Enchanter) told me that even if I have the gold, he can't enchant it as a Headband of Mental Prowess-type item has a Caster Level of 8 and therefore he needs to be level 8 as a Wizard before he can enchant it. (He is at level 6 now.)
AFAIK, if he was making one from scratch the only mandatory rule about the CL of the item is that it it should be at least the minimum level to cast the spell. So, for a stat enhancing spell, level 3 for a wizard (bear's Endurance, Cat's grace and so on are level 2 spells).
The CL of the item mostly affect how easy is to deactivate it with dispel magic.In this particular scenario there is a problem: the headband already exist and is already enchanted at a specific CL, 8. As a GM I wouldn't allow the "downgrading" of the CL of a item, so your wizard would not be capable to upgrade your headband, while he could make a new one with a +3 bonus.
This is my personal interpretation. some people will argue that it would be possible to create an item with a CL higher than your own, but I disagree. RAW is imprecise enough that both position are acceptable.
What is more important is your GM opinion. Ask him. The forum can give his opinion, but he is the final arbiter.
Where does it imply that you need to meet the cl to make it? Or are you seeing no rules on it and assuming that it wasn't a deliberate decision to not include it?
Fwiw, there are items that have a minimum caster level listed as a requirement. That alone convinces me that you don't need to meet the CL. It makes no sense otherwise.
Ahem, time to back up my assertions with some links.
From the FAQ entry Howie listed"[/url]]
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
Emphasis SKR's. Seems exceedingly clear that meeting the Caster Level of an item is not necessary to craft the item, unless it's a part of the Requirements section. Which for the vast majority of items, it is not, I might add.
Here's the text for a clay golem manual:
Clay Golem Manual: The book contains animate objects, bless, commune, prayer, and resurrection. The reader may treat her caster level as two levels higher than normal for the purpose of crafting a clay golem. Moderate conjuration, divination, enchantment, and transmutation; CL 11th; Craft Construct, creator must be caster level 11th, animate objects, commune, prayer, resurrection.
Bracers of Armor, Amulet of Mighty Fists, Amulet of Natural Armor also have this text.
And that's just from the CRB :)
The APG magic items chapter says (on page 282), "The creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level." This contradicts the Core Rulebook. Which is correct?
That line in the APG is an error. An item's caster level is not a prerequisite for item creation unless it is specifically mentioned in an item's Requirements line (for example, an amulet of natural armor).
(SKR 8/30/10)
Can't get more clear than that.
Cheapy, no one in this thread has said that there is a CL prerequisite to upgrade the headband.
Diego did. I was responding to him. I do see the confusion that you raise though, and am still considering it.
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Cheapy, no one in this thread has said that there is a CL prerequisite to upgrade the headband.Diego did. I was responding to him. I do see the confusion that you raise though, and am still considering it.
I didn't understand him to be saying that.
He said that the item must be created at a minimum CL. And, he said that as a GM (in other words, as his house rule or GM ruling), he would require that an upgrade also be made at a CL that is no lower than the item already had. These both speak to the CL of the item, not the CL of creator, and not establishing CL as a prerequisite for creation.
He also said that his opinion is that a creator cannot make an item that has a CL (the actual object, not the book listing), that is higher than the creator's CL. He acknowledges it as his opinion and that it isn't based strictly on RAW. I happen to agree with that idea, but that's a matter of how I think the rules should be, not how the rules are written.
SKR's FAQ says that a level 3 wizard could create a level 3 Pearl of Power (normally of CL5) by making the Spellcraft check with DC+5; it isn't clear what he's saying the CL of the resulting PoP would be. Would it be CL5 or CL3? Or as long as the creator is taking the +5 hit on the DC, why not make it CL20?
Perhaps I misinterpreted this statement then:
some people will argue that it would be possible to create an item with a CL higher than your own, but I disagree. RAW is imprecise enough that both position are acceptable.
Just because a +3 headband doesn't exist as a standard item doesn't mean you can't custom create one. The formula for the cost is there to ensure it's balanced.
This.
Cost:
Ability bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp Belt of incredible dexterity 2
Thus the +3 bonus would have a 3x3x1000gp=9000gp value, original cost 4000gp. Value of Increase: 5000gp Thus, Cost of increase is 2,500gp.
As per SKR's clarification, no caster level in the requirements, means to minimal caster level to create (except the ability to cast or have cast, Owl's Wisdom
The caster level in the upper area affects spells cast from the item, such as a wand of fireballs. Now if your GM imposed a requirement, well then that would be his house rule.
Headband of Inspired Wisdom
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th
Slot headband; Price 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6); Weight 1 lb.
Description
This simple bronze headband is decorated with an intricate pattern of small green gemstones. The headband grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to Wisdom of +2, +4, or +6. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the headband is worn.
Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, owl's wisdom; Cost 2,000 gp (+2), 8,000 gp (+4), 18,000 gp (+6) no caster level requirements here
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Just because a +3 headband doesn't exist as a standard item doesn't mean you can't custom create one. The formula for the cost is there to ensure it's balanced.This.
Cost:
Ability bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp Belt of incredible dexterity 2Thus the +3 bonus would have a 3x3x1000gp=9000gp value, original cost 4000gp. Value of Increase: 5000gp Thus, Cost of increase is 2,500gp.
As per SKR's clarification, no caster level in the requirements, means to minimal caster level to create (except the ability to cast or have cast, Owl's Wisdom
The caster level in the upper area affects spells cast from the item, such as a wand of fireballs. Now if your GM imposed a requirement, well then that would be his house rule.
** spoiler omitted **
And the problem comes in that, for a character with a 12 wisdom, it acts like a +2 wisdom headband, and for a character with a 13 wisdom, it acts as a +4 wisdom headband (at least for game affects). If you go by the suggestion from the devs and price it close to a standard item, where do you put it? Do you change the price based on the in game results or the stat blocks?
Many GM's will see a +3 headband as a way to get a cheaper +2 to wisdom bonus based things. That is the reason that the devs did not include +1, +3, or +5 stat boost items.
Sure, the pricing formula guidelines are there, but it is up to the GM to balance it into their game.
Just because a +3 headband doesn't exist as a standard item doesn't mean you can't custom create one. The formula for the cost is there to ensure it's balanced.snip my own quote
The caster level in the upper area affects spells cast from the item, such as a wand of fireballs. Now if your GM imposed a requirement, well then that would be his house rule.
** spoiler omitted **
And the problem comes in that, for a character with a 12 wisdom, it acts like a +2 wisdom headband, and for a character with a 13 wisdom, it acts as a +4 wisdom headband (at least for game affects). If you go by the suggestion from the devs and price it close to a standard item, where do you put it? Do you change the price based on the in game results or the stat blocks?
Many GM's will see a +3 headband as a way to get a cheaper +2 to wisdom bonus based things. That is the reason that the devs did not include +1, +3, or +5 stat boost items.
Sure, the pricing formula guidelines are there, but it is up to the GM to balance it into their game.
I allow it. RAW allows it. PFS does not because PFS must stick to static items.
Yes, the devs left it out of the pre-made items, but they didn't prohibit it in the item creation rules.
It acts as a +3 item; not as a +2 or a +4 item, that is based upon the character's ability score, WHICH, in a point buy game, actually cost the character an additional point. Thus it's actually a reward for the character who isn't made of all even stats.
The reason odd ability score items don't exist is because no one would ever create a magic item that randomly only worked for half of the world's population.
The reason odd ability score items don't exist is because no one would ever create a magic item that randomly only worked for half of the world's population.
But aren't even bonuses bonuses as useless to characters with odd ability scores as odd bonuses are to characters with even ability scores? Well, beyond having 1 extra point in an attribute as a buffer against ability drain or damage.
An even bonused item always provides an increase in the stat modifier, where as the odd bonused items provide a different bonus depending upon the wearer. So generic stock will always be even - so that it works for all and the odd stuff is best left to the crafter of your party (With GM approval)
An even bonused item always provides an increase in the stat modifier, where as the odd bonused items provide a different bonus depending upon the wearer. So generic stock will always be even - so that it works for all and the odd stuff is best left to the crafter of your party (With GM approval)
I guess I just look at it a bit differentially than some of the posters in this thread. It seems like the ability to use (cheaper) odd bonus items is one of the advantages of having an odd ability score (and gives some incentive to not have a character with all even ability scores).
I think what it all comes down to is: If you can make a +2 Magic Item (say Gauntlets of Strength +2), then you can make, or upgrade you item to, a +6 item (Gauntlets of Strength +6). The only thing stopping you is the cost. You don't need to wait to be at a higher caster level.
Which I find ridiculous, but there it is.
I also agree that the magic item making rules needs a complete overhaul.
Ultradan
Well, beyond having 1 extra point in an attribute as a buffer against ability drain or damage.
Umm... this buffer is against drain only. Startign with PF, ability damage does not reduce your ability temporarily, rather half the ability damage taken is translated into appropriate penalties.
Whether you hace Con 16 or 17, 5 points of Con damage will reduce your bonus from +3 to +1. You do NOT calculate 'current Con = 16-5 (=11) or 17-5 (=12).
Allowing for odd-numbered ability bonuses would do the very thing Paizo is avoiding like the plague: Re-calculate the effects on a case by case basis, rather then slapping a simple effect on the character.
This having beeen said, I'd disallow the +1 items. Too damn cheap for the effect...
It seems like the ability to use (cheaper) odd bonus items is one of the advantages of having an odd ability score (and gives some incentive to not have a character with all even ability scores).
Well, the only reason you'd want an odd score at all it to qualify for feats (which always have an odd ability prerequisite).
On the other hand... let's do a bit of cost optimisation, shall we? Low level character, wants both his STR and CON to be reasonable... say we buy them both to 16.
'Classic' Way: Buy a 16 and a 14, slap on a Girdle of STR+2
Costs 15 points for point-buying, plus 4000 Gold for the +2 girdle.
'El-Cheapo' Way: Buy two 15s, use a Girdle of STR+1, CON+1
Costs 14 pointas for point-buying, plus 1000 + 1.5x 1000 = 2500 Gold.
Woot! Just saves 1500 Gold, and a character point... Hmm...
Well, beyond having 1 extra point in an attribute as a buffer against ability drain or damage.Umm... this buffer is against drain only. Startign with PF, ability damage does not reduce your ability temporarily, rather half the ability damage taken is translated into appropriate penalties.
Whether you hace Con 16 or 17, 5 points of Con damage will reduce your bonus from +3 to +1. You do NOT calculate 'current Con = 16-5 (=11) or 17-5 (=12).
Allowing for odd-numbered ability bonuses would do the very thing Paizo is avoiding like the plague: Re-calculate the effects on a case by case basis, rather then slapping a simple effect on the character.
This having beeen said, I'd disallow the +1 items. Too damn cheap for the effect...
Ahh, thanks for that. I'm one of those people walking around with old 3.5 garbage in his head (long-time 3.5 DM, currently in two PF campaigns; have only been DM in 3 short PF sessions).
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On the Even vs Odd balance issue,
I find it a little over meta-gaming to justify why odd number items should be restricted for balancing.
A character in-game won't know that. The character would just know that his enchanted item now has a more powerful enchantment on it.
Just my point of view on this.
On "saving" gold by getting odd items and slapping +1 items on them... unless it is a 1 shot, why do that? You as a player do know that items are maxed at +6, so... why?
This is getting way to min/max. But thanks for everyone's input into this. :)
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I think what it all comes down to is: If you can make a +2 Magic Item (say Gauntlets of Strength +2), then you can make, or upgrade you item to, a +6 item (Gauntlets of Strength +6). The only thing stopping you is the cost. You don't need to wait to be at a higher caster level.
Which I find ridiculous, but there it is.
I also agree that the magic item making rules needs a complete overhaul.
Ultradan
That is another thing, Ultra.
I houseruled it already in the 3.0 version of the game. In my world your caster level need to be the stat enhancing item bonus x3.
I.e. you need to be 3rd level to make a +1 stat enhancing item and level 18 to make a +6.
As Pathfinder generally has lower level NPC and a slower character progression I am thinking to change this requirement to something like x2.5, so that a level 15 crafter can make a +6 item.
But this is an houserule, nothing like that in the RAW.
I houseruled it already in the 3.0 version of the game. In my world your caster level need to be the stat enhancing item bonus x3.
I.e. you need to be 3rd level to make a +1 stat enhancing item and level 18 to make a +6.
As Pathfinder generally has lower level NPC and a slower character progression I am thinking to change this requirement to something like x2.5, so that a level 15 crafter can make a +6 item.But this is an houserule, nothing like that in the RAW.
Hmmmm... Vellly Intelllesting!
Ultradan
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I houseruled it already in the 3.0 version of the game. In my world your caster level need to be the stat enhancing item bonus x3.
I.e. you need to be 3rd level to make a +1 stat enhancing item and level 18 to make a +6.
As Pathfinder generally has lower level NPC and a slower character progression I am thinking to change this requirement to something like x2.5, so that a level 15 crafter can make a +6 item.But this is an houserule, nothing like that in the RAW.
Hmmmm... Vellly Intelllesting!
Ultradan
Ah... In Pathfinder Magic Weapons and Armor already have this rule.
Your CL need to be x3 the +(enchantment) to enchant a Weapon/Armor.
So for example, a +3 longsword needs you to be at least a lv9 CL.
Its under the Create Magic Weapon/Armor section of the Core Rule Book.
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Ah... In Pathfinder Magic Weapons and Armor already have this rule.Your CL need to be x3 the +(enchantment) to enchant a Weapon/Armor.
So for example, a +3 longsword needs you to be at least a lv9 CL.Its under the Create Magic Weapon/Armor section of the Core Rule Book.
Which, of course, can be overcome by taking a +5 on your Spellcraft DC... since that would be a Requirement that was missing. ;)
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Which, of course, can be overcome by taking a +5 on your Spellcraft DC... since that would be a Requirement that was missing. ;)
Ah... In Pathfinder Magic Weapons and Armor already have this rule.Your CL need to be x3 the +(enchantment) to enchant a Weapon/Armor.
So for example, a +3 longsword needs you to be at least a lv9 CL.Its under the Create Magic Weapon/Armor section of the Core Rule Book.
I don't quite understand why you mean.
The CL requirements is a Special Prerequisite for Magic Weapons/Armor. As stated here:
"Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor."
Spellcraft does not allow you to overcome this. So how can you "take a +5" on Spellcraft and overcome this? It makes no sense.
Which, of course, can be overcome by taking a +5 on your Spellcraft DC... since that would be a Requirement that was missing. ;)
Ah... In Pathfinder Magic Weapons and Armor already have this rule.Your CL need to be x3 the +(enchantment) to enchant a Weapon/Armor.
So for example, a +3 longsword needs you to be at least a lv9 CL.Its under the Create Magic Weapon/Armor section of the Core Rule Book.
I don't quite understand why you mean.
The CL requirements is a Special Prerequisite for Magic Weapons/Armor. As stated here:
"Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor."Spellcraft does not allow you to overcome this. So how can you "take a +5" on Spellcraft and overcome this? It makes no sense.
MAGIC ITEM CREATION RULES
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."Note that the rules don't differentiate between prerequisite types. Whether it's a spell prerequisite or a "special" prerequisite is inconsequential. For every prerequisite you don't meet, increase the DC by 5. That's RAW.
Having said that, I'm fairly certain that game developers have posted in the past that the RAI of it is that, since the armor and weapon special prerequisites is not included under the prerequisite line, but under the magic armor and weapons sections, that it cannot be so easily skimped out on.
I don't quite understand why you mean.The CL requirements is a Special Prerequisite for Magic Weapons/Armor. As stated here:
"Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor."Spellcraft does not allow you to overcome this. So how can you "take a +5" on Spellcraft and overcome this? It makes no sense.
There is a school of thought that interprets the "must" to be like all the other prerequisites/requirements and therefor can be overcome with a +5. There are numerous lengthy threads on the issue of the ambiguity and inconsistencies in the wording used in the item crafting rules so I won't go into further details here.
Someone a while ago made the very sensible suggestion that the terminology used for requirements and prerequisites should be standardised into something like hard and soft prerequisites to cover those things that cannot or can be avoided by taking the +5 to the DC.
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I don't quite understand why you mean.The CL requirements is a Special Prerequisite for Magic Weapons/Armor. As stated here:
"Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor."Spellcraft does not allow you to overcome this. So how can you "take a +5" on Spellcraft and overcome this? It makes no sense.
There is a school of thought that interprets the "must" to be like all the other prerequisites/requirements and therefor can be overcome with a +5. There are numerous lengthy threads on the issue of the ambiguity and inconsistencies in the wording used in the item crafting rules so I won't go into further details here.
Someone a while ago made the very sensible suggestion that the terminology used for requirements and prerequisites should be standardised into something like hard and soft prerequisites to cover those things that cannot or can be avoided by taking the +5 to the DC.
I have to agree... that +5 seems... broken...
I do note that it did say "Special Prerequisite" and not simply "Prerequisite". How clear must the rules be? Does it have to stat each and every situation/circumstance where something can and cannot happen?
Sigh... starting to get an ideal why DnD when the way of 4e...
Pathfinder, I love and hate you! SO MANY rules!!!!