RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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silly mage vs cannon question. With -40 to perception checks how is the mage tossing counterbattery fire?
anyway... (The below is all IMHO of course)
There's a line from the prologue to the first Hammer's Slammer's compilation "Wars begin when one side believes they have an advantage over the other, or wishes to commit suicide. (And not even Massada began as a suicide attempt."
So tactics and troop movements are going to rely on intelligence moreso than the 'real world' because of imbalances. If the attacker knows they have a mage, then he's more likely to spread his troops out, if he knows they don't then they'll cluster up.
Also 'special forces' are going to be more of a factor. The 'starve 'em out' kind of seige isn't as practical if the defender has even low level clerics with create water and purify food and drink handy. But if you can get an elite squad into the castle to damage/destroy spell books, components, etc. you're going to be able to do more damage. Let alone steal bonded items or kidnap familiars. Even pipes of the sewers can be devestating if you can infiltrate the grain storehouses. A particularly gutsy wizard/witch can send in their familiar for more intel gathering. How many castles/towns track every cat or rat?
Counterintelligence is also going to be important. You may be able to 'stone call' that phalanx moving in, but what if there are 6 phalanxes and 4 are illusions? Which one do you target? What if your spy's intel is compromised because he was captured and had a modify memory spell cast on him? On the high power level of things, take that stone golem and cover it in stitched together hides to disguise it as a flesh golem. Wait for that caster to fireball it. Hilarity ensues.
silly mage vs cannon question. With -40 to perception checks how is the mage tossing counterbattery fire?
anyway... (The below is all IMHO of course)
There's a line from the prologue to the first Hammer's Slammer's compilation "Wars begin when one side believes they have an advantage over the other, or wishes to commit suicide. (And not even Massada began as a suicide attempt."
So tactics and troop movements are going to rely on intelligence moreso than the 'real world' because of imbalances. If the attacker knows they have a mage, then he's more likely to spread his troops out, if he knows they don't then they'll cluster up.
Also 'special forces' are going to be more of a factor. The 'starve 'em out' kind of seige isn't as practical if the defender has even low level clerics with create water and purify food and drink handy. But if you can get an elite squad into the castle to damage/destroy spell books, components, etc. you're going to be able to do more damage. Let alone steal bonded items or kidnap familiars. Even pipes of the sewers can be devestating if you can infiltrate the grain storehouses. A particularly gutsy wizard/witch can send in their familiar for more intel gathering. How many castles/towns track every cat or rat?
Counterintelligence is also going to be important. You may be able to 'stone call' that phalanx moving in, but what if there are 6 phalanxes and 4 are illusions? Which one do you target? What if your spy's intel is compromised because he was captured and had a modify memory spell cast on him? On the high power level of things, take that stone golem and cover it in stitched together hides to disguise it as a flesh golem. Wait for that caster to fireball it. Hilarity ensues.
Could not have said it better and precisely what I was getting at.
I was being conservative - not trying to make it a war like the year of 1066 where the english villages were stripped of able bodied men, because after Hastings, the English had NOTHING left.
Ok... call it 20% but it couldn't be 40% unless they were stripping females out as well.
Call it 25 and we have a deal! ;-)
I don't know an exact number, but ten seems really low.
One thing you have to consider is that females would take part in wars, in my day I've seen a lot of female nights, healers, sorceresses, etc. not including them would not only be a waste of power, it would be sexist.
You don't need to bust it. Just wait till they open the door to go in and get the powder. Its a temporary shack remember, and fireball is a spread , you shoot past and over the front of the building to the door.Or just shoot the crew. They're the ones standing next to the ginormous cannon. Makes them stand out a lot more than the wizard.
I think you misunderstand how powder is kept, during combat situations.
You have multiple metal canisters stored inside a wooden trunk. Each canister only holds enough for one shot. Inside each canister is a cloth bag that is burned with the gun powder when fired (the wade).
The only reason gunpowder explodes in a gun is because there is no room for expansion. If you get it while its exposed to open air all you'll do is burn it, so at best you'll ruin one shot while it's getting prepared and you best hope that is the only cannon they have and there aren't any archers with readied actions to shoot casters casting spells that aren't in our army.
Because disguise doesn't mean you go away -- anyone can still see you, if you want to disappear you need stealth, and the second you start casting everyone gets spellcraft checks to know you are casting.
Again it's not a case of one wizard vs one cannon crew -- it's that wizard against a freaking army and you are putting him in the line of fire to possibly stop a cannon from shooting once.
One thing you have to consider is that females would take part in wars, in my day I've seen a lot of female nights, healers, sorceresses, etc. not including them would not only be a waste of power, it would be sexist.I was being conservative - not trying to make it a war like the year of 1066 where the english villages were stripped of able bodied men, because after Hastings, the English had NOTHING left.
Ok... call it 20% but it couldn't be 40% unless they were stripping females out as well.
Call it 25 and we have a deal! ;-)
I don't know an exact number, but ten seems really low.
We were using historical presedence. However, in a fantasy game things are more equal across gender lines. So yea, I think the armies in a fantasy world would conscript able bodied women also.
I think you misunderstand how powder is kept, during combat situations.
Blackpowder goes past my forte for military weaponry. Got any references for these kits? they sound interesting.
You have multiple metal canisters stored inside a wooden trunk. Each canister only holds enough for one shot. Inside each canister is a cloth bag that is burned with the gun powder when fired (the wade).
Because disguise doesn't mean you go away -- anyone can still see you, if you want to disappear you need stealth
You don't need to go away. You just need to not stand out in a crowd of 500 people that look just like you.
and the second you start casting everyone gets spellcraft checks to know you are casting.
Anyone that noticed you, sure.
Again it's not a case of one wizard vs one cannon crew -- it's that wizard against a freaking army and you are putting him in the line of fire to possibly stop a cannon from shooting once.
The cannon is the only thing the wizard needs to worry about at that range. The entire freaking army, as you put it, can't see who did it, has a horrible chance to notice the spell, and those that do notice him probably can't hit him worth a damn. Mage armor , on ok dex and the range increment will put the wizard in the hit on a natural 20 range.
I would like to point out that 3.5 had a rule that turned multiple archers into an AOE attack. And seeing as the nature of PF is it's backwards compatibility, that is still relevant.
... it's clear that if a 5th-level battle mage is pretty rare, there's a lot of value in detailing people to hunt him down...
Actually, I don't think that is clear. Most of the adventures I have read from 2e to PF seem to have several 5+ level casters just as the citizens in almost every village of a couple hundered people. It takes literally thousands of peasants to support even a realatively modest castle. So you have around a dozen 5+ level casters just in the area before you even look at the specialits and retainers that the rulers have hired. The few modules that detail out the crew of even a manor house usually have a 7+ level caster. Looks to me like there are quite a few people available for any army to have some one cast a fireball or two then scuttle back under cover.
For the original topic:
I think you'd actually see something like the last century's cold war. A lot of positioning, saber rattling, posturing, and threats with few actual wars. When something actually breaks out, I think both sides would try to keep it limited in scale because no one would be sure what would happen if it escalated. {Kinda like Vietnam and Korea.} You would have lots of spy, sabatoge, and counter strike small scale events.
Then if things actually go down the tubes into full scale war, I thnk both sides in a magic infused conflict would grind each other up very quickly.
On another note spellcasters get paid by the spell according to the equipment section. So unless you happen to have a lot of mages on retainer they should be quite easy to counter, they will all be stood near the quartermaster getting paid for the fireball they just used, as well as the defensive spells they cast on theirselves just to leave their tower/basement.
I think i depends entirely on the scale of the conflict, larger wars amongst nations that can afford spellcasters will probably enter a MAD mentality like nex and geb, smaller conflictw would probably be settled like the start of the film troy, champion to champion.
On another note spellcasters get paid by the spell according to the equipment section. So unless you happen to have a lot of mages on retainer they should be quite easy to counter, they will all be stood near the quartermaster getting paid for the fireball they just used, as well as the defensive spells they cast on theirselves just to leave their tower/basement.
Or you could just pay them for all of their spells, including the defensive ones they cast on themselves. No point in ticking off the guy with fireball over a few coppers.
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Give me some time to dig it up BNW, there were actual cartridge loaded cannon earlier than most realize -- part of the problem was of course the metals used and lack of understanding on what they did that caused them to explode (metal was too weak powder was too strong) on occasion. I imagine the reports and worries of this were overblown when compared to the actual happenings much like shark attacks are today. The arms in UC look to be well past that point as well.
Quick reference -- yes there are betters but just to get the idea out
Another problem comes in the fact that the wizard is now in the middle of a prime target for said cannon -- and until it fires he's not going to have any better of an indication of where it is compared to where he is.
How I would see the 'magical' troops being divided:
Assuming you have 3 casters in each 100 men that would be where you would want to divide your troops. You would ideally want a wizard or sorcerer, a bard and a cleric in each such unit. Hopefully this would be a mixed arms group and perhaps circular in formation -- the main force of it would probably be phalanx fighters (using game terms) of about 3rd level (on the professional soldier side) -- these would use either sling or javelins while advancing and switch to either long spears or short swords upon contact with the enemy. The biggest problem with this is you also make yourselves prime targets for the cannon (which is where I would put the recruits and 2nd level people with a higher level officer). The burst rounds cause armies problems because they are basically wizards throwing fireballs over and over much cheaper than the wizard could do so -- the idea of lobbing fireballs and stones is nothing new to medieval combat and was done with catapults and trebuchet long before before cannons came along. Which is why things like
In the back you would have your archers, cannon and other such siege weaponry. Cannon are nice for their ease of reloading, and re-aiming, but they weren't the first means for delivering massive death to the enemy and marching in a pack of soldiers is going to invite the wizard having arrows rained on his head -- unlike the other soldiers that will have shields and armor the wizard won't due to the inability to wear such and cast.
Honestly this is where the problem is -- there isn't a good safe place to put 1 in 100 guys while trying to also line him up to act as artillery. It's exactly the reason cannons weren't placed directly on the front lines.
The wizard isn't offering any new advances in warfare -- he's merely changing methods and even there only slightly. Hand grenades and the like are use well before cannons were, and again he's one guy that's got to deal with everything else everyone in combat has to deal with.
Again in a skirmish situation or in guerrilla warfare the wizard has a lot more utility -- but in a straight up battle his lack of stamina shows clearly, as well as the fact that what he's actually offering isn't anything new to the battlefield. Dropping rocks, making the ground greasy, smoking the enemy, and using fire have already been standard military tactics by this point. The person of more value on the battlefield will be the cleric -- his ability to wear armor and heal quickly means you can keep your troops going faster when first engaging.
After the lines collided though you would want him to pull back and wait to heal later so as to not offer advantage to the enemy, or at minimum simply at like a normal soldier and bash things.
On another note spellcasters get paid by the spell according to the equipment section. So unless you happen to have a lot of mages on retainer they should be quite easy to counter, they will all be stood near the quartermaster getting paid for the fireball they just used, as well as the defensive spells they cast on theirselves just to leave their tower/basement.Or you could just pay them for all of their spells, including the defensive ones they cast on themselves. No point in ticking off the guy with fireball over a few coppers.
Yeah I see them getting paid like officers instead of enlisted men. They're specialists after all -- much like the cannon crew and grenadiers -- people you generally don't piss off.
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Alrighty so now that I'm here once more.
Up until now we've just been assuming magic and humans. We haven't even thought about larger creatures and their other capabilities. Here are soem thoughts.
Darkvision You know how battles typically ended at sundown in the days before electricity? Well forget it. Darkvision throws this out of the window. There's no reason for Orcs, Dwarves, Drow, Goblins, and perpetually anyone with nightvision not to attack in darkness. I don't think it's a coincidence that these same races usually have racial proficiency in melee weapons or have some nasty natural attacks all of their own.
Spell Resistance/Energy Resistance/Etc.: If I formed a unit of nothign but tieflings (looking at you Cheliax) I'd be in good shape to laugh off fireball tactics. Consdering many of them might be 2nd level rogues at the time of conscription? Well... In any case this si a game changer when you talk about magic. The drow in particular have an entire race resistant to magic. This emphasizes control of the field rather than straight up attack. Certain spells (like Stone call) would work wonderfully but you have to be aware that they know that too and will take steps to minimize that threat.
Large Creatures One of the disadvantages of siege weaponry is its cumbersomeness. But if you have say, a handful of ogres to carry your light catapults. Or even ebtter, why not hire some stone giants to sit back and hurl rocks. They tend to be much quicker than trebuchets. Plus they can carry massive amounts of stuff with no loss of speed giving the army a mobility advantage if not a stealth one. Added that thee guys are most certainly not going to die to a single stone call spell and your commander's going to have to step up his game. Infact this is a nice situation where a tight formation actually works in favor here as a bunch of aid another actions or a bunch of attacks will bring down these creatures rather efficiently. That's what adventuring parties have been doing for centuries.
Again, I'll comeback with more but for now I have to do some serious paperwork for my kingmaker game.
Actually the darkvision and large creatures play right into building castles ironically.
*snip*
I brought up giants as siege engines earlier in the threads.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well monsters change any tactics.
To use my special forces above one or two monsters that make it into a city/enemy camp can cause all sorts of havok...
- Medusa rogue with hat of disguse. Give her access to a hammer, and she can gather intel *and* take out officers/rankig targets.
- Worried about sappers? A couple Xorn paid to scout.
- city has sewers? all sorts of critters there.
- Wererats.
- Lantern Archons. A couple of these floating around playing combat medic with cure light wounds.
- Kitsune with that fox feat we're hearing about, again small furry intel.
Lantern Archons. A couple of these floating around playing combat medic with cure light wounds.
Say what?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Say what?
Lantern Archons. A couple of these floating around playing combat medic with cure light wounds.
Brain fart. I misremembered they had cure light wounds as an at will ability. I was pictureing one or two zipping around a battlefield doing tirage by stablalizing the wounded.
Though if you had called lantern archons, you could have fun with their greater teleport. "Someone in that tower is a mage. Take this 40lbs bomb and teleport into the ground floor..."
Calling them has it's own problems -- they can refuse. Since they are LG you might have an alignment conflict on your hands. Also greater teleport is nice but its still going to have some issues (as could the bomb -- like timing and method of setting it off).
My impression is that Pathfinder warfare shapes up to be alot like the trojan war, as described in the Illiad.
Based on the guidelines in the core book, PC classes are uncommon, and high leveled ones are quite rare.
So for the most part, you need traditional armys, and your own heros to counter enemy heroes. Sure sometimes one army has a powerful wizard, and a=sometimes a great monster will wreck an army, but for the most part, it will end up with the PC classes tieing each other up.
The rest of the army will have what basic contingency can be had, like oil of magic weapon for DR. Proper strategy would be based around nullifying high CR threats, so the armys can function. Hence, quests and adventurers.
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I got out of the United States Marine Corps a Staff Sergeant. I served in combat with the 1st Marine Regiment of the 1st Marine Division, and while there did a lot of study on military tactics…some for self-improvement, some mandatory.
The problem(s) I see with many of the tactics discussed relate to terrain and timing in the battle. Here is what I see…they are all right, and they are all wrong. There is a right time and place and a wrong time and place for each battle tactic / formation presented in this discussion.
Wars unfold across many fronts, some before the first “shot” is taken. Laid out in a somewhat chronological order, here are some “front’s” to consider
-- Political posturing and alliance building / or breaking depending on the politics.
-- Resource gathering and production…hey Clerics, a war is brewing, start making wands of CLW, farmers have their in-kind taxes increased, etc.
-- Home front, as in, getting the populace ready and behind the war effort.
-- Spying / information gathering and the counter-surveillance / counter-intelligence that goes with that.
-- Training, arming, and equipping…which is often used an excuse for pre-position and pre-posturing men, monsters, and materials.
Once a war starts you need to consider these hostile actions:
-- Spying; information gathering never stops, as well, attempts at diversion and presenting false information. Think Task Force Troy in the first Gulf War.
-- Infiltration and Sabotage…poisoning, burning, breaking, stealing, disabling, whatever the enemy has, has access to, or wants…think PC’s as commandos. Some of these shortfalls can be overcome by creation magic, but, one thing has not and will not ever change in war…most wars are fought over territory and you still need to have boots on the ground to occupy the conquered territory. Creation magic to feed tens of thousands in an epic battle will be too expensive and too concentrated…as in, not available for everyone.
-- Logistics, getting what you need to where you need it. Now in a fantasy setting things like folding boats and portable holes , teleportation magic and the like kick in.
Now for battle formations you may need to account for castle sieges, you may need to account for narrow mountain passes, you may need to account for plains, frozen tundra, unearthly hot desserts, tropical islands, towering cliffs, and if a Faerun fan, floating earth motes or whatever they were called.
Attacks may come from the air…think griffon mounted wizards, dragons, and giant owls. Attacks may come from the sea…think ships with large catapults and Marines, think aquatic elves and sahuagin, kraken and dragon turtles. Attacks may come from under ground…think ankhegs and bullettes, drow elves and dwarves. Attacks may come from marauding hordes of orcs, goblins, hobgoblins and giants. Attacks may come from other planes and may be summoned from the very pits of hell itself.
Now for every type of terrain, for every weather climate, and for every defense, there are strengths and weaknesses to numerous to list here because there are too many variables. For every type of offensive attack you can dream up, there are both strengths and weaknesses…and guess what, you won’t know the full capabilities of what you are attacking or of what’s attacking you.
The point is you have to know something about military tactics, your possible enemies, and appropriate counter-measures to defend or attack anything in both large scale military actions and squad sized military actions. Again, there are too many variables to list here or anywhere else. But you need to have contingency plans, backup plans, and options available. Therefore, you need to be prepared and equipped to potentially do a lot of different things.
But other than roll thousands of dice and account for an unlimited number of variables, use mass-combat rules, or use a system like “Heroes of Battle” by WoTC and have the war the background to the PC’s actions.
A good example of a city with a well-thought out fantasy defense is Waterdeep.
Pray you don’t ever face my armies on the fields.
Greg
Now what would a fantasy DnD war look like?
For intelligent humanoid armies: If you’re bigger than every on else on the battle field…you’re dead. If you show how big of a target you are by tossing around fireballs…you’re dead. If you fly over the battle field on a powerful magical beast…you’re dead. There would be a lot of diplomacy, cloak and dagger, sabotage and subterfuge, and lots of small unit sized commando style actions. But, massed armies will exist…
For monstrous humanoids and goblinoids…you’d likely see mass armies supported by monsters, sorcerers, and adepts. Their tactics would be rudimentary, and behind the scenes sabotage would be not so prevalent.
Except people keep dragging legions of high level casters into the conflict. I think you are right but one thing those who cite a multitude of high level casters have on their side is the amount of mid-high level casters in Paizo's materials.My impression is that Pathfinder warfare shapes up to be alot like the trojan war, as described in the Illiad.
Based on the guidelines in the core book, PC classes are uncommon, and high leveled ones are quite rare.
Which, let's be honest, aren't super accurate summations of what's out there. I think it might be worth sitting down and looking over the town/city rules for population density of casters.
The fantasy game world is strangely balance...if a city happens to have a cabal of high level wizards around I'm sure that the king has something better for them to do than blast low-level mooks. Especially since IF, the city has a cabal of high level wizards, the approaching army also has a group of high level / powewrful entities that the ONLY the high level wizards will be able to tackle.
IF the opposing armies are not balanced, then the game becomes, well, not much fun.
Every military unit has strenghts and weaknesses which are usually overcome by tactics...think Russia in Afghanistan in the 80's, or the US bombing Bosnia, or our involvments in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afhganistan.
Tactics, tactics, tactics and good intel.
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Lantern Archons. A couple of these floating around playing combat medic with cure light wounds.
You're underestimating those suckers. Summon in a swarm of them and you can cut through a city wall like a hot knife through cheese.
Light Ray (Ex) A lantern archon can fire beams of light to damage foes. These light rays have a maximum range of 30 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.
Dynamite with a laserbeam. Guaranteed to blow your mind. Anytime Ooh
Especially since IF, the city has a cabal of high level wizards, the approaching army also has a group of high level / powewrful entities that the ONLY the high level wizards will be able to tackle.
Well, the thing is that you need to look at defense on a countrywide scale, not a town level one. Messing with one town in a country means you're messing with the entire country, and 1 sending spell and 1 teleport spell means you can have a high level wizard on your invading army LITERALLY in the time it takes to say supercalifragalisticexpialidotious
Lantern Archons. A couple of these floating around playing combat medic with cure light wounds.
You're underestimating those suckers. Summon in a swarm of them and you can cut through a city wall like a hot knife through cheese.
Light Ray (Ex) A lantern archon can fire beams of light to damage foes. These light rays have a maximum range of 30 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.
Dynamite with a laserbeam. Guaranteed to blow your mind. Anytime Ooh
Um... Damage reduction isn't the same as hardness and hardness isn't the same as DR.
A monk can ignore DR/adamantine after several levels -- however that doesn't mean he ignores hardness like adamantine would.
Lantern Archons. A couple of these floating around playing combat medic with cure light wounds.
You're underestimating those suckers. Summon in a swarm of them and you can cut through a city wall like a hot knife through cheese.
Light Ray (Ex) A lantern archon can fire beams of light to damage foes. These light rays have a maximum range of 30 feet. This attack overcomes damage reduction of any type.
Dynamite with a laserbeam. Guaranteed to blow your mind. Anytime Ooh
Um... Damage reduction isn't the same as hardness and hardness isn't the same as DR.
A monk can ignore DR/adamantine after several levels -- however that doesn't mean he ignores hardness like adamantine would.
Actually it does, It calls out that the monks unarmed strikes count as adamantine for overcoming DR and bypassing hardness.
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Yeah, Lantern Archons can't laser beam through city walls or cast cure spells at will (love the Queen references 'though!), but they don't suck. As a lesser planar ally, they've got DR 10/evil, two ranged touch always works 1d6 beams, a wimpy aura of menace debuff, can teleport past obstacles or into position, and can use the aid spell (with a duration of three minutes, usable every round) as a support tool for allied troops (or themselves).
They aren't trivial to kill, thanks to the DR, and the support from aid and 'laser beams' aren't bad. Having a half dozen of them flitting amongst your defenders (or your front line troops) could be a big benefit.
Actually it does, It calls out that the monks unarmed strikes count as adamantine for overcoming DR and bypassing hardness.
You are right in the monk's case -- Sorry for being wrong on that point. However the Lantern archon doesn't have the same wording.
I'm not saying lantern archons aren't very useful (they are) only than they aren't going to carve up a city wall.
Even if they did ignore hardness they are getting a maximum of 3 rays a round dealing 1d6+7 maximum (inspire courage, good hope and prayer) against something with thousands of HP.
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Now, Pathfinder is generally set in the late medieval period. Therefore, it would be logical to assume that Pathfinder militaries follow IRL medieval patterns in structure, strategy, and tactics. However, that discounts the wide availability of magic in a typical Pathfinder setting. One would think that it would have far reaching effects on how militaries are structured and battles are fought. Precisely what those effects would be, however, is anyone's guess.
So, lets get to guessing.
Firstly, there would be few people running around in heavy or even medium armor. It's not cost effective and would lower your rate of survivability on the battlefield. Most soldiers would likely be 1st level warriors armed with a longspear, studded leather, a heavy wooed shield, club, sling, and some flasks of acid or alchemist fire, and maybe a 1st level potion such as magic weapon to pierce spells like protection from arrows, or possibly longstrider or cure light wounds, or even resist energy. All of which is within the non-heroic standard wealth of a 1st level warrior.
This basic kit would exemplify the basics of D&D warfare. Everyone has at least one grenade-like weapon, defenses against arrows (heavy shield + fall prone + total defense = excellent defense vs long range arrow fire), and solid ranged and melee opportunities, while remaining mobile and cheap.
Monsters such as golems are actually to be protected from groups like this. A group of, let's say 50 soldiers, would take apart an iron golem in a single round if they got their flasks of alchemist fire or acid off (50d6 + 50d6 is a dead golem).
As others have pointed out, it's often the lower level spells that would see heavy use on the battlefield. The entangle spell would be exceedingly powerful for setting up terrain. Minor illusions such as silent image would obscure vision until the enemy came in contact with the illusion. Cheap magic items that use potent spells allow 1st level adepts, wizards, sorcerers, witches, and so forth to be walking war-machines.
Magical creatures would change the nature of warfare as well. A single rider on a griffon could carry a handy haversack or bag of holding filled with alchemist fire, and make bombing runs over the enemy battlefield, dropping acid or fire from the sky to explode when they hit the field around the enemies. In addition to the splash damage, falling object rules come into play as well, meaning first you'd get hit by a flask at terminal velocity, then catch on fire. Not a good day to be a soldier.
Mixed units would probably be frequent. Easily, a group could probably contain 1 adept for every 2 warriors, since they can fight with simple weapons, wear studded leather, and pretty much be identical to the other soldiers in terms of kit, while being able to cast spells like bless, and use wands of lightning bolt and wall of stone.
Spells like animate dead would drastically change warfare. Wars of attrition become much harder. This is especially true when you are dealing with magic items that have the material component factored into the cost, allowing the item to recharge and be used daily. You can literally take the bodies of your enemies, re-animate them, and put them on the front lines. Such units are immune to morale failure, disease, poisons, and cannot be harmed by the cold or heat and fatigue. This makes them ideal for regions like deserts, tundras, bogs, or anywhere that living creatures would have troubles with.
Summoned Monsters could be useful as well. A single celestial or fiendish auroch can trample through a unit of soldiers, dealing 2d6+9 damage to everything along the path of its charge. Essentially, you're playing bowling with soldiers as the pins.
It would also change the way castles are build. Simple stone wouldn't be enough it most cases. More likely that wizards would be brought in to use wall of iron and fabricate to put layers of metal inside the walls of the castles. Not just to strengthen them, but more importantly, to block divination spells and effects, which often cannot easily pierce sheets of metal.
Spells like private sanctum would likely be in effect anywhere that meetings for war were held, to avoid scrying or listening in. Likewise, spells like scry and augury would be used frequently and regularly, to try and out-guess your enemy. Augury can be used to triangulate the position of an enemy force on a map, which can lead to tracking down things like rebel camps easy if the force doesn't keep moving (in short, there is no hiding out in a camp where enemies can't find you).
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As for higher level characters, I think there are reasons they don't usually participate in full-scale warfare. Firstly, they are usually more useful doing things like assassinating enemy leaders, or preforming some other focused task in the background. The second reason is because it is still pretty easy to lose a high level hero in an open warfare situation, due to the ability to focus fire.
Like our golem, getting a crap-ton of alchemist fire thrown at you kind of sucks. Hopefully you're packing some energy resistances, or you're toast, literally.
Lastly, formations would probably be much different. I imagine long marching lines, spread out formations, or anything that would put a damper on big AoE spells.
Food for thought.
Alchemist's fire would heal an iron golem, but your point is clear.
Actually it does, It calls out that the monks unarmed strikes count as adamantine for overcoming DR and bypassing hardness.You are right in the monk's case -- Sorry for being wrong on that point. However the Lantern archon doesn't have the same wording.
I'm not saying lantern archons aren't very useful (they are) only than they aren't going to carve up a city wall.
Even if they did ignore hardness they are getting a maximum of 3 rays a round dealing 1d6+7 maximum (inspire courage, good hope and prayer) against something with thousands of HP.
Better to just find a 6th level fighter. With an 18 strength, he has a +6 to damage with a 2 handed weapon, a +2 to damage due to specialization, +1 to damage due to training, +6 to damage due to power attack, and 2 attacks per round, before rolling dice. That means it can deal 2d6+6 damage to the wall after hardness (an average of 13.5 damage per attack, or 27 damage per round). With a few rounds, a Fighter can tear a hole through a stone wall.
Alchemist's fire would heal an iron golem, but your point is clear.
Actually, it won't. Iron golems only heal from magical attacks that deal fire damage. It is neither immune, nor does it heal from, alchemist fire.
Better to just find a 6th level fighter. With an 18 strength, he has a +6 to damage with a 2 handed weapon, a +2 to damage due to specialization, +1 to damage due to training, +6 to damage due to power attack, and 2 attacks per round, before rolling dice. That means it can deal 2d6+6 damage to the wall after hardness (an average of 13.5 damage per attack, or 27 damage per round). With a few rounds, a Fighter can tear a hole through a stone wall.
Um... no -- it's much more than a few rounds. 180 hp for just a 5 foot by 5 foot section of stone.
Um... no -- it's much more than a few rounds. 180 hp for just a 5 foot by 5 foot section of stone.
Better to just find a 6th level fighter. With an 18 strength, he has a +6 to damage with a 2 handed weapon, a +2 to damage due to specialization, +1 to damage due to training, +6 to damage due to power attack, and 2 attacks per round, before rolling dice. That means it can deal 2d6+6 damage to the wall after hardness (an average of 13.5 damage per attack, or 27 damage per round). With a few rounds, a Fighter can tear a hole through a stone wall.
Statistically, the Fighter will deal about 27 damage to the wall every round. In 7.8 rounds (might as well just say 8 rounds) the Fighter will tear a 5 x 5 hole in the wall, which is enough to begin funneling a unit through single-file. For those at home watching, that is in fact less than 1 minute of tearing the wall apart. This also does not assume a magic weapon, merely entirely based on the 6th level fighter's own capability.
EDIT: It also doesn't assume any special buffs. Bull's strength would increase the damage per round by +6. Haste would increase it by another 13.5. So if the 6th level Fighter was hasted by his 6th level caster friend, he would tear the wall apart in 4.4 rounds, or let's just say 5 rounds. That would be tearing a 5 x 5 section of wall out in 30 seconds.
Um... no -- it's much more than a few rounds. 180 hp for just a 5 foot by 5 foot section of stone.
Better to just find a 6th level fighter. With an 18 strength, he has a +6 to damage with a 2 handed weapon, a +2 to damage due to specialization, +1 to damage due to training, +6 to damage due to power attack, and 2 attacks per round, before rolling dice. That means it can deal 2d6+6 damage to the wall after hardness (an average of 13.5 damage per attack, or 27 damage per round). With a few rounds, a Fighter can tear a hole through a stone wall.Statistically, the Fighter will deal about 27 damage to the wall every round. In 7.8 rounds (might as well just say 8 rounds) the Fighter will tear a 5 x 5 hole in the wall, which is enough to begin funneling a unit through single-file. For those at home watching, that is in fact less than 1 minute of tearing the wall apart. This also does not assume a magic weapon, merely entirely based on the 6th level fighter's own capability.
EDIT: It also doesn't assume any special buffs. Bull's strength would increase the damage per round by +6. Haste would increase it by another 13.5. So if the 6th level Fighter was hasted by his 6th level caster friend, he would tear the wall apart in 4.4 rounds, or let's just say 5 rounds. That would be tearing a 5 x 5 section of wall out in 30 seconds.
EDIT 2: To put this in perspective, that Fighter just tore a tunnel through a stone wall in less than the time it takes to heat up some ravioli in the microwave.
But that is only a 5' x 5' hole in a 1 foot thick wall. castle walls are never just 1 foot thick. Typical city walls are 5' thick, with typical large city walls are 10 foot thick, and typical metropolis walls 15 foot thick. (page 434, core rulebook). 5' walls have 450 hp per 10' section, 10' walls 720 hp, and 15' walls 1170 hp.
Still, its a short amount of time to get through a stone wall with just a normal sword.
Edit: Saw thicker walls were already given a hp total, so removed the multipliers and just noted the hp.
Um... no he damaged a stone wall in a five foot section. He's not taken out the wall or put a hole through it. Remember a wall is a structure and it has that hp for each five foot by five foot by five foot section.
What the fighter did was pummel a stone that is 5x5x5 -- not the same as opening up a wall, and that assumes that his work didn't drop more stone on top of him (to the tune of 20d6 of damage falling on his head).
EDIT: Ninja'ed by Jeraa.
But that is only a 5' x 5' hole in a 1 foot thick wall. castle walls are never just 1 foot thick. Typical city walls are 5' thick, with typical large city walls are 10 foot thick, and typical metropolis walls 15 foot thick. (page 434, core rulebook). So multiply the hit points by 5, 10, or 15. Still, its a short amount of time to get through a stone wall with just a normal sword.
Yeah even at x15 thats still only like 8 minutes to breach a 15ft wall
But that is only a 5' x 5' hole in a 1 foot thick wall. castle walls are never just 1 foot thick. Typical city walls are 5' thick, with typical large city walls are 10 foot thick, and typical metropolis walls 15 foot thick. (page 434, core rulebook). So multiply the hit points by 5, 10, or 15. Still, its a short amount of time to get through a stone wall with just a normal sword.Yeah even at x15 thats still only like 8 minutes to breach a 15ft wall
That's about 10 minutes to significantly damage a section that is 5 foot by 5 foot with a sword. He's not breached the wall as he hasn't removed the stone around him.
And again that's not the wall's actual HP -- that's a single section.
If the way is 100 feet long and 15 feet high and 10 feet deep you've got 20 sections x 3 sections x 2 sections = 120 sections of 5x5x5 stone.
All the while people are trying to kill you with stuff like boiling oil, arrows and the like.
Stone has 15 hp per inch of thickness. 12x15 is 180 per foot x 5 feet is 900 hp for a single 5 foot thick section that is 5x5x5.
IF the wall is only 500 feet long and 20 feet high and only 15 feet thick that's 100 sections x 4 sections x 3 sections or 1,200 sections with 900 hp each.
So a wall has 1,080,000 hp.
If it's only 10 feet tall and 10 feet thick then it's still 400 sections or 360,000 hp total.
But that is only a 5' x 5' hole in a 1 foot thick wall. castle walls are never just 1 foot thick. Typical city walls are 5' thick, with typical large city walls are 10 foot thick, and typical metropolis walls 15 foot thick. (page 434, core rulebook). So multiply the hit points by 5, 10, or 15. Still, its a short amount of time to get through a stone wall with just a normal sword.Yeah even at x15 thats still only like 8 minutes to breach a 15ft wall
Pretty much this. A higher level warrior can do it faster and faster. At 8th level the power attack bonus rises to +9, his strength is probably more like +9 while buffed, weapon training +4, and probably a +2 weapon, would all let him tunnel through faster and faster.
Literally, an entire strategy could revolve around just having this Fighter drill his way through a wall with his awesomeness, while others support him. Using wind wall to ward against archers while you carve through the wall would be useful, for example.
Also, it's worth noting that to deal 20d6 falling damage, you'd have to drop a colossal sized boulder on him from an excess of 150 ft in the air. Even then, it's a ranged touch attack at about a -14 to hit due to distance, so it's likely to just land next to him. Might want to check out the Environment rules for Falling Objects again.
This is of course, what happens when you're dealing with super-heroes in a military situation. They do junk like this.
I was more considering the wall above him falling on him. Stone normally doesn't simply float in midair when you remove its supports, especially not if there is a lot of it.
Stone has 15 hp per inch of thickness. 12x15 is 180 per foot x 5 feet is 900 hp for a single 5 foot thick section that is 5x5x5.
IF the wall is only 500 feet long and 20 feet high and only 15 feet thick that's 100 sections x 4 sections x 3 sections or 1,200 sections with 900 hp each.
So a wall has 1,080,000 hp.
If it's only 10 feet tall and 10 feet thick then it's still 400 sections or 360,000 hp total.
So 2.2 minutes to carve through 900 hp worth of stone 5ft thick. If the wall was fifteen feet thick, he would have it done in less than 7 minutes. That's better than a siege ram.
Just think how Quick AM BARBBARIAN would get though the wall if you told him it was a casty.
I was more considering the wall above him falling on him. Stone normally doesn't simply float in midair when you remove its supports, especially not if there is a lot of it.
That's 8d6 damage, with a DC 15 Reflex for half if the thing collapses in on him. However, he could just be weakening it with the express intention of causing it to collapse, creating a breach in the wall that he and his allies could move across to reach the rest of a fortress.
EDIT: Also, is there a reason it feels like you're being resistant / argumentative, Abraham?