In my current PF campaign, I'm using some AP installments and some Gamemastery modules - and some older 3.5 modules, and a bunch of Dungeon adventures for filler. As I was riffling through my Dungeons in preparation for running Tammeraut's Fate, it got me to thinking that I'd really like to see more smaller adventures coming out again for Pathfinder, like unto Dungeon Mag format.
Dungeon adventures were great - you weren't in for a huge thing, you could fit them in an existing campaign or play them as one night one shots.
Maybe the Pathfinder Society adventures could be used for this, but I have to say, not being a Society member, I have no idea what their quality is or how I'd figure that out... They seem kinda inaccessible to normal non-Society folks, and it seems they have all that faction stuff and whatnot - maybe it's a misperception but I haven't been tempted to buy any to use in my game.
Is there some deal with WotC where you promise never to do that again, or would you consider doing collections of short format adventures for "normal" Pathfinder games? I think it's a big missing niche, and it also allows you to onboard new authors without having to give them a full module or whatnot.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Most pfs adventures would work just fine for this. I have used them for this purpose once or twice. Plus they are really cheap so it isn't a huge deal if one doesn't work out.
I suspect if you went to the sub-forum and asked which worked best (and had plots which did not depend on being a pathfinder) you would get a solid list.
Yeah, I guess as a customer this doesn't sound very attractive though, I'd rather buy something I know will be a well curated issue with several small/medium/very small adventures in it. It's less fiddly. Plus it sounds like PFS adventures are heavily themed and have a lot of similarities; one of the strengths of Dungeon adventures was their diversity - they could be experimental, whereas I suspect PFS adventures are not due to the required structure involved. I was a RPGA Living Greyhawk triad for some time, and unless PFS adventures are profoundly different and better than RPGA adventures, thye don't really tempt me to use them for home.
I guess here's the bottom line for Paizo...
Are people buying a lot of PFS adventures for home use? I suspect not.
If not, isn't there money to be made in a short adventure compilation mag like Dungeon was? Because plenty of people bought that, even before the APs. Besides the other advantages like onboarding authors, experimental adventures (PFS has to be balanced and watered down out the yin-yang...).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I guess here's the bottom line for Paizo...
Are people buying a lot of PFS adventures for home use? I suspect not.
If not, isn't there money to be made in a short adventure compilation mag like Dungeon was? Because plenty of people bought that, even before the APs. Besides the other advantages like onboarding authors, experimental adventures (PFS has to be balanced and watered down out the yin-yang...).
I've bought 7 of the PFS adventures, they are well written and good for a solid nights play. They don't take a lot of set up and are a lot of fun.
Raging Swan Press
|
I guess here's the bottom line for Paizo...
Are people buying a lot of PFS adventures for home use? I suspect not.
If not, isn't there money to be made in a short adventure compilation mag like Dungeon was? Because plenty of people bought that, even before the APs. Besides the other advantages like onboarding authors, experimental adventures (PFS has to be balanced and watered down out the yin-yang...).
Ernest, I'd be delighted to send you a short Raging Swan module for old times sake! Take a look at Dark Oak and Road of the Dead and let me know at creighton at ragingswan dot con which one you'd like.
Maybe the Pathfinder Society adventures could be used for this
I built a chain of several adventures using PFS adventures for one of my groups that prefer the freedom of the short adventures versus the long haul of the adventure paths.
As far as an adventure being tide to the PFS play and Pathfinders, it is an asumption in each adventure but all that means is that generally that some patron seeks the players aid to get something, rescue someone, or stop something bad from happening.
None of my players I am running have any desire to join the Pathfinders and the adventures I have used so far have had the Pathfinders removed with very little work (if any). In some cases all it required was to just introduce an NPC a couple of adventures early so when that key NPC is in need of the player I can have that NPC come to them directly instead of seeking the aid of the Pathfinder Society.
When I am selecting adventures I look at the reviews and the descriptions and judge from that. So far I have not been disapointed and I have bought more than a dozen adventures so far and plan to buy more. (They are inexpensive and when on sale they are even cheaper, look for a sale in November and Christmas.)
Look guys, trying to be polite, but I imagine PFS adventures are much like Living Greyhawk etc. adventures, and those were not comparable in quality in general to Dungeon adventures. All 'four hour', all constrained in format and challenge and treasure and whatnot because of the organized play format, written for little to no money... Even pro writers spend less time on them, Erik Mona's Dungeon work is 100% better than his LG adventures and I think he'd probably agree with that, it's how it works... My point here is to say "I want me some Dungeon back."
Creative Director
|
Look guys, trying to be polite, but I imagine PFS adventures are much like Living Greyhawk etc. adventures, and those were not comparable in quality in general to Dungeon adventures. All 'four hour', all constrained in format and challenge and treasure and whatnot because of the organized play format, written for little to no money... Even pro writers spend less time on them, Erik Mona's Dungeon work is 100% better than his LG adventures and I think he'd probably agree with that, it's how it works... My point here is to say "I want me some Dungeon back."
Well... I like to think that our Pathfinder Society adventures are a bit better than that.
The average Pathifnder Society Adventure is about the size of a mid-sized Dungeon adventure, first of all, at about 10,000 to 12,000 words (in print, that's about 16 pages or so).
And while work on a PFS adventure does indeed pay less than a Pathfinder AP installment... it's not unpaid work. And many of our PFS adventures are written by authors who also do adventures or other work for us, including some Paizo staffers.
AKA: We don't treat our PFS scenarios like the proverbial red-headded stepchild.
It sounds to me like you haven't actually looked at one of our PFS scenarios (judging by the "I imagine PFS adventures..." comment). If that's the case, I really do think you should check them out—look for ones that get good reviews, of course, and buy a couple to check them out. I think the quality there is on par with what we were doing in Dungeon Magazine—which makes sense, since the PFS adventures essentially have the same authors and developers and editors who worked on Paizo's Dungeon magazines.
|
Aaaand you can check ot without risk. There are three free scenarios you can use to make up your mind without having to rely on imagining anything about their quality.
I do not play PFS, but I have a good amount of PFS scenarios to use as prolonged encounters or short adventures 'in between'. Sure, not all of those are great, but most have some reviews to them, that can help you decide.
It sounds to me like you haven't actually looked at one of our PFS scenarios (judging by the "I imagine PFS adventures..." comment). If that's the case, I really do think you should check them out—look for ones that get good reviews, of course, and buy a couple to check them out. I think the quality there is on par with what we were doing in Dungeon Magazine—which makes sense, since the PFS adventures essentially have the same authors and developers and editors who worked on Paizo's Dungeon magazines.
I'll check them out and would be happy for it to be true. I have a hard time imagining it, just because the OP format requires a certain amount of same-ness among the mods, but still.
If they are that good, why not bundle them up and sell them in a Dungeon-like format? I guaran-frickin-tee you I'm representative of the vast majority of your customer base that doesn't go over in that PFS section because "it's that organized play thing I don't do."
|
Creative Director
|
If they are that good, why not bundle them up and sell them in a Dungeon-like format? I guaran-frickin-tee you I'm representative of the vast majority of your customer base that doesn't go over in that PFS section because "it's that organized play thing I don't do."
There's a simple answer for that—we don't have the capacity at this point (nor have we had the capacity in the past) to do something like that at this time. It's certainly something I wouldn't mind doing some day, since I never got into the RPGA back in the day but I DID buy all the RPGA compilations and tournament modules TSR published.
So, some day we might indeed do something like bundle them, but right now? No capacity.
|
Creative Director
|
So, some day we might indeed do something like bundle them, but right now? No capacity.Maybe you could start with PDF-only compilations, which I would think would be a bit easier logistically. Maybe compile them by season. Then offer them as printed compilations at some future date.
Compilations would have to bring something more to the table, in my opinion, than simply lessening the number of times a customer has to click links to buy and download stuff.
|
Creative Director
|
I know this would throw off the rather nice two-APs-a-year pattern, but maybe every seventh issue of the Pathfinder AP magazine could be a 'Kitchen Sink' issue with 1 side adventure ideal for the most recent AP, 1 comedy adventure (I'm sure the Devs really miss the chance to just be silly for a few pages now and then), and 1 'city adventure' (thus allowing players to revisit Kaer Maga, Katapesh, Magnimar and other faves.) Then again, I don't claim to know Paizo's marketing projections for those sorts of projects -
Disrupting the "2 APs a year pattern" is one of those things that we're not allowed to do. The AP is INCREDIBLY successful, and as such, changing things that drastically would be foolish.
I've bought PFS modules and used them both as stand alone adventures and inserts into Adventure Paths. I find that they're quite a good value and don't feel any need for complilations.
If they are that good, why not bundle them up and sell them in a Dungeon-like format? I guaran-frickin-tee you I'm representative of the vast majority of your customer base that doesn't go over in that PFS section because "it's that organized play thing I don't do."There's a simple answer for that—we don't have the capacity at this point (nor have we had the capacity in the past) to do something like that at this time. It's certainly something I wouldn't mind doing some day, since I never got into the RPGA back in the day but I DID buy all the RPGA compilations and tournament modules TSR published.
So, some day we might indeed do something like bundle them, but right now? No capacity.
OK, just saying that there's "capacity" and there's ROI - I bet you made a lot more $$ on Dungeon than you're making on PFS, and there's a big gap for a pre-AP format Dungeon type offering. I am in some arbitrary sense happy for you to spend all that effort just on PFS if it's worth it to y'all, just from having been involved with the RPGA I find it hard to believe that it is.
|
Creative Director
|
OK, just saying that there's "capacity" and there's ROI - I bet you made a lot more $$ on Dungeon than you're making on PFS, and there's a big gap for a pre-AP format Dungeon type offering. I am in some arbitrary sense happy for you to spend all that effort just on PFS if it's worth it to y'all, just from having been involved with the RPGA I find it hard to believe that it is.
Actually... I'm not sure we DID make more money on Dungeon than we do on our PFS scenarios... in fact, when you factor in the SIGNIFICANT costs associated with a magazine and some other factors... I wouldn't be surprised to find out we're making more money on the PFS scenarios than we did on Dungeon Magazine.
We don't show off those numbers publicly, so I can't go into it any further than that... but yeah. The PFS scenarios are doing QUITE a hearty bit of business.
|
|
Unless things have changed drastically since Season 1 (nevermind Season 0) the PFS Scenarios really aren't good enough for print publishing. They're way too formulaic with little more than 4 encounters and a macguffin.
Our group tried them out till about mid-season 1 before simply giving up on them entirely.
I've said it before and I'll says it again. I want modules to become a double-feature product. 64 pages with two 32 page modules per book. I'd gladly see one of the other lines lose some to make up for it if need be. The campaign setting stuff is great and a fun to read, but the modules are far more universally useful with the amount of people who play in homebrew settings. Also you could tie in a popular module idea with a more experimental one to get more experimental modules out to the public and be safer financially.
Actually... I'm not sure we DID make more money on Dungeon than we do on our PFS scenarios... in fact, when you factor in the SIGNIFICANT costs associated with a magazine and some other factors... I wouldn't be surprised to find out we're making more money on the PFS scenarios than we did on Dungeon Magazine.We don't show off those numbers publicly, so I can't go into it any further than that... but yeah. The PFS scenarios are doing QUITE a hearty bit of business.
I seem to remember Vic saying they were pretty low margin though - it was one of many reasons that make a PFS subscription unlikely to be feasible, as I recall.
I seem to remember Vic saying they were pretty low margin though - it was one of many reasons that make a PFS subscription unlikely to be feasible, as I recall.
Anything that has a fixed cost and infinite resale, margin is defined by volume. If sales have doubled every year and costs remained the same, that can be a good margin.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I have a few of the scenarios. My campaigns are set in Golarion atm, so when we go to a new area, I get a few of the scenarios for that area. I haven't bought any in a while since my current group tends to stay on the campaign track I have devised.
Parts of them can be reused as well. One adventure in particular I have reskinned 3 times and only one player has noticed so far.
|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
OK, just saying that there's "capacity" and there's ROI - I bet you made a lot more $$ on Dungeon than you're making on PFS, and there's a big gap for a pre-AP format Dungeon type offering. I am in some arbitrary sense happy for you to spend all that effort just on PFS if it's worth it to y'all, just from having been involved with the RPGA I find it hard to believe that it is.If they are that good, why not bundle them up and sell them in a Dungeon-like format? I guaran-frickin-tee you I'm representative of the vast majority of your customer base that doesn't go over in that PFS section because "it's that organized play thing I don't do."There's a simple answer for that—we don't have the capacity at this point (nor have we had the capacity in the past) to do something like that at this time. It's certainly something I wouldn't mind doing some day, since I never got into the RPGA back in the day but I DID buy all the RPGA compilations and tournament modules TSR published.
So, some day we might indeed do something like bundle them, but right now? No capacity.
One thing to bear in mind is that the PFS modules have both a direct ROI based on actual sales, but also the indirect ROI based on how many people stay involved in Pathfinder, and continue to buy other Pathfinder products based on being kept active in the game based on PFS play (not to mention brand new customers that PFS draws in.) It's harded to measure the indirect ROI based on ancillary purchases, but I'm sure Paizo realizes the benefits of PFS mods beyond just the revenue they directly bring in.