Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I come down on the side of allowing both using a reroll on a take-10, and allowing a take-10 on a reroll. It's just simpler, and I don't see a strong argument against it.
I do agree that the reroll happens before you know the result, so the only practical reason to choose to reroll a take-10 is if there's some kind of additional bonus you get on the reroll (like the GM star bonus).
As for forcing a reroll of a take-10, that's also going to be situational, because it means the enemy has to be in a position where they can force the reroll, but the character is also not being threatened and thus able to take-10. So an invisible or hidden enemy while the character is making a skill check or something like that. In combat, it's not going to be an issue except for some rare abilities that allow take-10 under any circumstances. In those cases, I don't see why the player couldn't just take-10 on both dice.
So, for example, if an enemy witch Misfortunes a character, then someone Touch of Laws that character, I'd assume the character could just take-11 on both rolls of the Misfortune. At that point you're getting into very situational combinations of abilities, though, and a GM can just make a call on it that they feel is appropriate.
But can you take 10 on a reroll of a take 10? (To add your GM stars to it.)
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you roll a one. What has happened to your character?
Oh you don't know?
Well then you're free to reroll.
Can you site an example where you know the results of your roll before the GM tells you the results of your roll?
All a one is is that you know what the results should be, but until you tell the GM your total and he tells you the result of that you don't actually know the result.You know you will fail, but you haven't yet failed.
Because you don't really know the results until the GM announces them.
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Because you don't really know the results until the GM announces them.
That depends how you define "know." Is knowing referring to the dice results or is it referring to results of the action the dice represent? That is a question for the GM to answer. The Guide says, "this reroll must happen before the original result is determined."
While I think denying someone a reroll on a "1" because they "know" the result of the roll (auto-fail) is a poor idea, but I would stop short of telling a GM they are wrong for doing it since the rules are not as clear as they could be on that specific point.
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Because you don't really know the results until the GM announces them.That depends how you define "know." Is knowing referring to the dice results or is it referring to results of the action the dice represent? That is a question for the GM to answer. The Guide says, "this reroll must happen before the original result is determined."
While I think denying someone a reroll on a "1" because they "know" the result of the roll (auto-fail) is a poor idea, but I would stop short of telling a GM they are wrong for doing it since the rules are not as clear as they could be on that specific point.
Not technically wrong, no. But a big jerk wad, yes.
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Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Because you don't really know the results until the GM announces them.That depends how you define "know." Is knowing referring to the dice results or is it referring to results of the action the dice represent? That is a question for the GM to answer. The Guide says, "this reroll must happen before the original result is determined."
While I think denying someone a reroll on a "1" because they "know" the result of the roll (auto-fail) is a poor idea, but I would stop short of telling a GM they are wrong for doing it since the rules are not as clear as they could be on that specific point.
I do because it completely renders the reroll pointless. More often than not you have a general idea of what you need to roll to succeed and to say that you can't use your reroll is pretty mean.
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That depends how you define "know."I prefer to not have the players ability to reroll be based on how much they know about the situation, but rather if they have decided to accept the die roll on the table.
Exactly so. Regardless the rules of the game, knowing what the result of the roll is cannot be 100% certain until the GM confirms it so. And while I hate to speak in absolutes or hyperbole, I can assure you that if a GM were to deny me a reroll because I rolled a 1, they would have to have been otherwise extremely exceptional as a GM for me to consider sitting at their table again.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I'm gonna be fairly lenient on the "know" bit.
Suppose the GM blurts out the DC to the roll before the player actually rolls it. Because he's tired maybe. ("Okay, the vampire flunkies all spam Dominate Person again for the third round in a row. DC 15 Will saves everyone.") I wouldn't deny someone their reroll just because they knew the DC and thus could guess whether their save would succeed.
Or a jump: you're jumping a 10ft chasm and your roll results in a 9. You know that won't be enough. (Sometimes the DC is higher, but it's never easier.) Reroll not allowed? What about the guy sitting next to you, who doesn't know the Acrobatics difficulties? Is he allowed to reroll while you aren't? Is he allowed to reroll if you accidentally mention the DC, trying to be helpful? ("You're a rogue, you only need to roll a 3 to clear it!")
Everyone has to make a check. Guy next to you fails on a 15. Your turn to roll and you get a 14. Reroll allowed?
So that's some cases where the player already knows if his roll will succeed, but where it'd be stupid to deny it.
How then is it consistent to deny reroll on a '1' based on "you already know"?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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So, true story (that I made up just now):
A man was convicted of a crime and sentenced to be hanged. The judge said: "You will be hanged one day next week, Sunday through Saturday, but you will not know the day of your execution; it shall be a surprise."
Well, the man was no dummy, and as he thought about his fate, he realized with a gasp, "I cannot be executed on Saturday, for that is the last possible day of my execution, and if I am still alive Saturday morning, then I must be killed that day, and it would be no surprise. That's impossible, according to the sentence, so I cannot be executed on Saturday.
"But hold! If I am alive on Friday morning, then I would know that I would be killed on that day, since the only days remaining would be Friday and Saturday, and I have already ascertained that I cannot be killed on Saturday. So, I must be killed on Friday, but there being no other option, I should know that, and this the sentence prohibits. So I cannot be executed on Friday."
Likewise, he reasoned, he could not be executed on Thursday, since by Thursday morning, having not yet suffered the gallows, he would know that his death would rest on Thursday, or else on those latter days Friday or Saturday, which he had already shown to be impossible.
And so it went. He could not be executed on Wednesday, nor Tuesday, nor Monday, nor even on Sunday. And so he relaxed, secure in the knowledge that there were no days on which he could be executed.
And so, when the hangman came for him on Wednesday, he was well and truly surprised.
THE MORAL OF THIS STORY: Don't be too sure about what fate rests on a roll of "1".
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Rolling a "1" IS knowing the result regardless of whether or not the GM chimes in.
Not really - the player does not know, for example, if there is some kind of effect causing unusual results on a natural 1 or 20. (This is something that does in fact occur, in PFS scenarios.)
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Everyone has to make a check. Guy next to you fails on a 15. Your turn to roll and you get a 14. Reroll allowed?
But you don't really know. You think that if your die is lower than his die, and that he failed, that you would likely also fail. But his DC could be different, and you don't really know until the GM says if you failed.
Mind you, uncommon from a PFS villian, but it could still happen that your race/gender gained a different DC than that of your buddy. Or your alignment, or any number of other things. The GM isn't required to state what modifiers are being applied. It comes up, though certainly uncommon.
It would be a gamble. Though personally, if I roll above 10 on the d20, a re-roll isn't likely going to solve the problem. I'd rather save that reroll for situation that I roll under 10.
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So, true story (that I made up just now):
<i>snip</i>
You did not make that up...
And don't get me wrong, I'm not ever going to deny someone a reroll unless I as the GM have already told them they fail. But to those of you saying "you don't know the outcome on a 1, so you that's why you can reroll it", does your stance change if it's because a spell was cast at them and they've spellcrafted it so they know the outcome? I agree that you should be able to reroll a 1, but your stance just seems flawed.
Okay but like the other listed examples Bob jumps over a pit and rolls a 10+5 gets 15 and fails. Does everyone else lose the ability to reroll if their total is 15 or less since they know Bob failed?
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You can also look at it as the "outcome" not being completely known until everything about the situation is resolved and you're moving on to the next action/whatever.
Enemy casts a spell.
PC spellcrafts it, knows that it's fireball.
PC rolls reflex save. Gets a 1.
-- The Player still does not know what happens as a result of failing the save. They know they'll take some fire damage, but not how much or whether they'll survive it. They do not know the outcome yet.
GM rolls... Max Damage!
PC is dead.
Player wishes he'd used his reroll, but now it's too late, because he knows the outcome.
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You can also look at it as the "outcome" not being completely known until everything about the situation is resolved and you're moving on to the next action/whatever.
Enemy casts a spell.
PC spellcrafts it, knows that it's fireball.
PC rolls reflex save. Gets a 1.
-- The Player still does not know what happens as a result of failing the save. They know they'll take some fire damage, but not how much or whether they'll survive it. They do not know the outcome yet.
GM rolls... Max Damage!
PC is dead.
Player wishes he'd used his reroll, but now it's too late, because he knows the outcome.
And, *even worse* they WOULD have rolled it because the fireball wasn't in a box with a decaying isotope and a cat.
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Pretty sure most interpretations don't let you wait for the actual damage roll.You can also look at it as the "outcome" not being completely known until everything about the situation is resolved and you're moving on to the next action/whatever.
Enemy casts a spell.
PC spellcrafts it, knows that it's fireball.
PC rolls reflex save. Gets a 1.
-- The Player still does not know what happens as a result of failing the save. They know they'll take some fire damage, but not how much or whether they'll survive it. They do not know the outcome yet.
GM rolls... Max Damage!
PC is dead.
Player wishes he'd used his reroll, but now it's too late, because he knows the outcome.
I'm not saying you can wait until after the damage roll. I'm saying you don't know the result until the damage roll. Say I roll a 2 on the die instead of a 1. My total is something like 10. Well, I'm pretty sure, unless the caster somehow has a penalty to their DCs, that I'm going to fail. I know it's a fireball that will likely deal fire damage. I have to decide whether or not I think I can take that damage, or if I want to use my reroll. That's the point I make the decision, before the GM has told me what happens (the result).
I might decide to take it, because I have Protection from Energy Fire going, and I figure it'll absorb all the damage anyway. Then the GM tells me to take 40 points of cold damage, because the caster had something that changes it to cold, which my spell craft check didn't inform me of. I now know the result, so I can't reroll. I thought I knew the result before that, but I was wrong.
In other words, you don't know the full result until you resolve everything. Just knowing that you failed because you rolled a 1 doesn't mean you know the full result.
It's just another way to look at it to maybe ease some GM's minds about allowing a reroll on a 1. No matter how much we think we know about a situation, it's always possible there's something we don't know, until the situation is fully explained.
That said, maybe we can take it even further: PC rolls 1, fails save, takes full damage, but survives. Next round gets hit by a sword and worries about dying, so "shirt reroll on the fireball save - outcome still isn't known!"
I think it's pretty easy to distinguish what is part of a finite event like a spell. Obviously coming back a round later to reroll isn't going to be allowed.
I've also had many times where I've wasted my reroll, because I thought I knew what was happening. GM says make a Will save, and I roll low. I think, this is probably something that's going to take me out of the fight, at least for a few rounds. So I reroll, and it turns out it's just Channel Energy or something like that.
At any rate, just be fair as a GM. If you shout out everything about a spell before the players have a chance to roll, and one of them rolls a 1, don't penalize them because you were trying to save time.
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So, if I just announce what the DC is before the players roll, then that would prevent them from being able to use a re-roll?
hmmm.... maybe I should think about this some more...
No, all that does is extend the "nat 1" realm, the realm where you know that the GM should tell you you fail, but he hasn't told you you fail yet, because you haven't told him your result yet, so you don't "know" the result of your roll yet.
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Even if the GM is looking at the die when it rolls a 1 and blurts out, "You fail, take 100 points of damage!" they should probably allow a reroll, because the player never really had a chance to make a decision in that situation.
Just be fair and stop worrying so much about the timing of things.
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Even if the GM is looking at the die when it rolls a 1 and blurts out, "You fail, take 100 points of damage!" they should probably allow a reroll, because the player never really had a chance to make a decision in that situation.
Just be fair and stop worrying so much about the timing of things.
Pretty much. I also hate it when GM's try to play the "I gotchya" game by saying things like, "Do you want to reroll that?" When they know you've succeeded.
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You don't know the result until the GM tells you it.
The GM can't tell you the results till you tell them your roll.
You tell the GM your roll after deciding if you want to re-roll or not.
Any knowledge you have to inform you that you would fail if you keep that roll doesn't stop you from choosing to re-roll.
If any of these are done out of order they don't need to be considered "official". If the GM tells you you fail before you roll the first die doesn't make that the "official" result because you haven't done all the steps before then. Sure if the GM blurts something out you CAN decide to let that blurt be official, but you don't need to.
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You don't know the result until the GM tells you it.
The GM can't tell you the results till you tell them your roll.
You tell the GM your roll after deciding if you want to re-roll or not.
Any knowledge you have to inform you that you would fail if you keep that roll doesn't stop you from choosing to re-roll.If any of these are done out of order they don't need to be considered "official". If the GM tells you you fail before you roll the first die doesn't make that the "official" result because you haven't done all the steps before then. Sure if the GM blurts something out you CAN decide to let that blurt be official, but you don't need to.
Taking that a step further.
If I accidentally blurt it out before they've had a reasonable amount of time to consider anything (and I'm pretty liberal on what I consider reasonable time), I allow a reroll. I'm not out to get the players.
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You don't know the result until the GM tells you it.
The GM can't tell you the results till you tell them your roll.
You tell the GM your roll after deciding if you want to re-roll or not.
Any knowledge you have to inform you that you would fail if you keep that roll doesn't stop you from choosing to re-roll.If any of these are done out of order they don't need to be considered "official". If the GM tells you you fail before you roll the first die doesn't make that the "official" result because you haven't done all the steps before then. Sure if the GM blurts something out you CAN decide to let that blurt be official, but you don't need to.
Taking that a step further.
If I accidentally blurt it out before they've had a reasonable amount of time to consider anything (and I'm pretty liberal on what I consider reasonable time), I allow a reroll. I'm not out to get the players.
Which is you skipping the step of, "they tell you their roll" and thus you correctly need to go back and let them decide, now knowing more than they would have. So they don't need to decide off of "what would they have done" but get to decide knowing that the GM will likely say the same thing if they don't re-roll.
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Which is you skipping the step of, "they tell you their roll" and thus you correctly need to go back and let them decide, now knowing more than they would have. So they don't need to decide off of "what would they have done" but get to decide knowing that the GM will likely say the same thing if they don't re-roll.You don't know the result until the GM tells you it.
The GM can't tell you the results till you tell them your roll.
You tell the GM your roll after deciding if you want to re-roll or not.
Any knowledge you have to inform you that you would fail if you keep that roll doesn't stop you from choosing to re-roll.If any of these are done out of order they don't need to be considered "official". If the GM tells you you fail before you roll the first die doesn't make that the "official" result because you haven't done all the steps before then. Sure if the GM blurts something out you CAN decide to let that blurt be official, but you don't need to.
Taking that a step further.
If I accidentally blurt it out before they've had a reasonable amount of time to consider anything (and I'm pretty liberal on what I consider reasonable time), I allow a reroll. I'm not out to get the players.
Sure, I suppose.
But I don't like to think in terms of order of operations while running a game. It makes it too mechanical for me.
I just try to be fair.