I'm really surprised that we haven't heard from the SCA or similar re-enacting groups.
I have no formal training in working with metal at all. I've made a pair of gauntlets that have survived years of intensive training, probably over one hundred hours of use with minimal upkeep. Granted, these were not Masterwork, and I probably don't have skills to make a Masterwork pair. I used only simple tools: cutting shears, pliers, hammer, glue. I made these in less than eight hours total.
I've made a hand-axe. A friend shaped the axe-head from a lump of mild steel over an anvil. We welded hardened steel on for the cutting edge using a modern MIG welder. I cut a branch from an apple tree in my yard, I cured it in flowing water over the winter (actually I cured about a dozen staves). I cleaned and shaped the branch, and fitted the head using simple tools. Again, about eight hours of actual work.
In response to this thread I just rang a bowyer I've bought a longbow from. He is a Paralympic archer, and scoots around his house in his wheel chair going from his polishing room to gluing room to his indoor target. He said it takes him 4-5 weeks to make a MW longbow. He said he only works when he is in the mood, if he is feeling negative about working on the bow then there's no point working at all- I'd call that taking 10.
Where are these ideas that it really does take that long to craft a bow, armour, etc? I read people saying it takes that long in the real world, but I've seen nothing to back it up.
The Craft skill takes an unreasonably long time.
Both you and your buddy used power tools, modern glues and pre prepped materials from the modern world. When crafting a bow means catching fish and boiling the glue out of their gas bladders or making gauntlets means smelting ore and hammering it into wire and plates tell me how long it takes.
To the OP
If you're looking for realism, you need to look for a different game. I'm not even talking about magic here.
I look at these "laws of physics" in the game world and realize that the game world itself has all kinds of differences with our own, even ignoring magic altogether. So, that said, why should crafting have to be realistic to the point where it hurts playability? Non-magical heroes are already stomping all over the laws of realism anyway. Is crafting that sacred?
Quite honestly, I've always been an advocate for a choice on rule types to match game types. You'd obviously favor the "realistic simulationist" game, some would like the "over the top cinematic" game, some would like the "balance-obsessed mechanics" game, and so on. Crafting would be one of those things which would have different rules for different game styles.
B) Items take longer simply because they're made with a more expensive material (Gold takes longer to craft than a silver for no other reason than that it's more expensive)
This is easily circumvented without stretching RaW.
You don't craft a ruby encrusted long sword as a 515 gp. You craft a 15 gp longsword, and then attach a 500 gp ruby to it.
You don't craft a longsword of solid gold as a 200 gp item, you craft a longsword as a 15 gp longsword and add 200 gp worth of gold.
Granted it isn't RaW, but it is in the spirit of RaW.
The RaW craft system is flawed, but this argument is often cited as the foundation as to why the craft system is broken and yet, it is the easiest bug to fix without taking anything from RaW.
Spoiler:Cost of materials5 lb Iron Anvil : 1 gp (iron is 2sp per pound)
5 lb Copper Anvil : 5 gp (100 copper coins = 1 lb of copper)
5 lb Gold Anvil : 500 gp (100 gold coins = 1 lb of gold)
5 lb Platinum Anvil : 5000 gp (100 platinum coins = 1 lb of platinum)Sale Price (2x material cost)
5 lb Iron Anvil : 2 gp (20 sp)
5 lb Copper Anvil : 10 gp (100 sp)
5 lb Gold Anvil : 1,000 gp (10,000 sp)
5 lb Platinum Anvil : 10,000 gp (100,000 sp)Assuming a smith with +10 check and taking ten to get 20. Typical items = DC 10, +10 voluntary = 20. Succeed on all checks.
20x20 = 400 sp per week. 400/7 = 57 sp per day
5 lb Iron Anvil : < 1 day
5 lb Copper Anvil : < 2 days
5 lb Gold Anvil : 25 days
5 lb Platinum Anvil : 250 daysNote that in all situations, you're melting metal and pouring it into a wooden or ceramic mold and letting it harden. You can't just say 'Oh, I'll craft an iron anvil and coat it with gold to get a gold anvil'.
The system, by using value as the basis, is broken from the ground up. Theoretically, a gold anvil should be the easiest (lowest melting point), an iron anvil second, a copper third, and the platinum fourth. However, it doesn't take most of a year to melt...
Anvils where not cast until the late 19th century, casting iron makes cast Iron, a material that is too brittle to be an anvil.
On further reflection would recommend using the gunsmithing rules for working in precious metals and gems (Ie 1 day per 1000 gp in value) while still requiring a skill check.
To the OP
If you're looking for realism, you need to look for a different game. I'm not even talking about magic here.
There should be more feats along the lines of the 'Master Alchemist' feat. Want to make plate armor in 1/10th the time? Make it a feat. The best armorsmiths will have it, plate armor is available in decently quick fashion, and a PC that devotes time to Craft skills doesn't have to sit in one spot for half a year to make stuff.
Though I've always felt that the mass and material basis of an object should be far more important to the amount of time it takes to construct it than the sale value of the item. That would, however, require more math and judgement calls.
There should be more feats along the lines of the 'Master Alchemist' feat. Want to make plate armor in 1/10th the time? Make it a feat. The best armorsmiths will have it, plate armor is available in decently quick fashion, and a PC that devotes time to Craft skills doesn't have to sit in one spot for half a year to make stuff.
That's just a slap job repair until something really gets done to the rules. Adding more feats to fix what clearly isn't working when put it to a serious test is not a fix.
mdt hits it closer to home, which is more or less what "Making Craft Work" is, only with longer times and a bit more complexity/robustness. Although I say no cap or cap at 75% reduction on time, as at High levels a certain degree of Extraordinary (Ex) use of a skill is not a bad thing.
To the OP
If you're looking for realism, you need to look for a different game. I'm not even talking about magic here.
There should be more feats along the lines of the 'Master Alchemist' feat. Want to make plate armor in 1/10th the time? Make it a feat. The best armorsmiths will have it, plate armor is available in decently quick fashion, and a PC that devotes time to Craft skills doesn't have to sit in one spot for half a year to make stuff.
Though I've always felt that the mass and material basis of an object should be far more important to the amount of time it takes to construct it than the sale value of the item. That would, however, require more math and judgement calls.
The thing people don't seem to get is one person does not make plate armor,ten people do. There are so many steps and so many parts of the process that having one person do it is foolish. You need like four apprentices making charcoal 24/7 and turning iron into the worst grade of steel, 3 intermediate smiths just refining the plates and making wire and 3 journeymen doing the actual work of making the plate armor.
The idea that one person is going to make a suit of plate armor using medieval manufacturing techniques is laughable.
I do not play WoW.
Good for you. Neither do I. However back around 2002 I did play in a game D&D that went that fast or faster.
Thank god Pathfinder pulled the rule of "you can only level once per sessions" however even with that rule still in place lets take a look at how fast In-Game you could go from 1st to 15th level.
Obviously we'll use the fast track. Assuming that each Day in-game is only one session you need 13 APL encounters to level the party. Speaking from experience this is quite doable with the right party makeup and the "right" encounters. So going super speed at 1 level a day you could hit 20 in less then a month in game.
That's rarely done however so 1 month to 3 months of in-game time to hit 15th level is not outside the bounds of what Pathfinder as a system can do.
To be more reasonable lets assume 4 encounters of APL exhaust a party's resources (an old balance assumption from early 3e). So 4 encounters a day, ~3... lets round up and say 4 days to the level. You can reach 15th level in 60 days, basically 2 months.
For the hay of it lets throw in 1 month of just travel time over that period. Hey look at that, 3 months.
Not WoW. Thank you for not playing.
Look I'm not much of a history buff, but are ingots only a modern creation, too? And if we're going to be realistic, why does armor slow you down and apply so many penalties? And why do the average weapons weigh so much? And why are guns armor-piercing? Wasn't bullet-proof used to describe plate? Why can everyone (not just fighters, but wizards too) always survive 60 foot falls through experience? Why are there even mundane crafters when you can do it better through magic? Weren't Falchions one-handed? Weren't most swords use to pierce and slash through history? Why are spears so short? Why isn't stealth and hand to hand combat as taught or respected as it was in history?
Pedantic about realism much?
It is impossible to make a mechanic to cover such a broad generalization (millions if not billions of products).
Making a system based solely on how hard it is to make an item is near impossible with the documentation provided by Pathfinder. It must be done with value or someone will have to provide extensive research for items, a list that will likely never be completed. I did simplify the system and made the time requirements more reasonable for those upset that it could take years to accomplish a task, yet not allowing only one week to make a full plate.
This system excludes adding folks to speed things up and excludes materials harder to work with. They both clog the system down.
Please test your items against my system.
It needs tweaking and I still need to add the base cost, cost of failure, and tool adjustments. Suggestions are appreciated.
Thank you, these are the response I was hoping to see.
Currently, the game designers have to decide on a value and weight for every single item they want to introduce to the game. If a DM wants something outside of that, they have to wing it.
The proposed solution is that we also add a DC check and Time for crafting for each of these items they've already released. Once again, if a DM wants something outside of that, they have to wing it.
The nice thing is that if you get a good spread of items, it's pretty easy to start seeing where something might be "simple" or "complex", etc. Just compare to an existing item that is similar and go from there.
I honestly feel this is something that is doable. However, I don't think it's worth the time invested to go into it, because crafting so rarely comes up that it's just not that big of a deal to get it fixed.
I'm not saying that you can't play with the crafting rules as they are now. I'm saying that they are fundamentally broken in concept. How I cope with this, is that I accept that they are broken, and deal with the case-by-case rare occurrences as they come up.
Mostly, the patch feats have prevented the need for dealing with it even more.
And yet making full plate in 1 week is okay with you?
First of all... someone's game style is not really a thing you can call right or wrong. Personal preference. Chocolate or Vanilla. Or Pralines and Cream.
Personally, I don't want full plate armor to be crafted in a week's time by a single person who's less than level 7.
I read that alexandrian article back before Pathfinder came out, and really like the idea of E6, so I can understand the sentiment of wanting to keep mundane capabilities in the realm of the mundane.
The problem is that the Crafting system doesn't let you get any better once you hit the levels where you are rivaling Hephaestus in your crafting ability. If you have 20 ranks in a skill, +3 class skill, +6 skill focus, some masterwork tools for another +2... You are looking at a check that's in the 30s before you even look at Intelligence. That's a take-10 in the 40s.
What was the "hardest questions known to man"? DC 30 knowledge checks? This 20th level character has the equivalent of "unreachable by normal human standards" in crafting... and we won't let him craft any better?
Beyond that, I'd like crafting rules that are more in sync with the adventurer lifestyle.
It might take more than a couple months for making a masterwork full suit of full plated armor. However, it should be something the character could be working on for a while, in his down time. Hammering out the details of a single part on a small anvil he carries with him while the Wizard is busy clearing his mind for the next day's spellcasting.
Unearthed Arcane (3.5) had Craft Points. While I don't know if they were perfect, they are great at emulating the "behind the scenes" stuff a character did.
If you are okay with a character "suddenly" getting a bunch of neat abilities and stuff when they level, then you should be okay with "suddenly" having an item crafted.
It's just assumed that you've been training or working on that item for the past while during whatever downtime you had. Sort of a ret-con of the last couple months when the craft points are spent.
Doing something like this for regular crafting for a PC that wants to focus on crafting would be a good way to integrate it into the adventuring gameplay.
Sure it took a year... the past year. ;)
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Why are you assuming that campaigns takes months or years? Many times people go from level 1 to 15 or higher over the course of a 2 months or less in an adventure. Should the GM be required to make up some arbitrary reason to extend a campaign just because someone wants to make full plate armor(not even masterwork full plate)?
Do you realize that kings would order a suit of armor and not see it for nearly a year?Why must everything be so MMO.
I do not play WoW.
Don't most of Paizo's adventure paths occur in a timeframe that's less than a couple months? Most of their adventure paths go through the course of levels 1-15 in that time.
The only one so far I can think of at the moment that takes longer is Kingmaker, and that's only because it's specifically designed around long periods of downtime due to growing a proper kingdom.
If an adventurer is going around having encounters at a steady pace (which is very likely with epic campaigns where time is an issue), then the rate of experience you gain for encounters shows us that leveling happens quick. This is simply built into the standard rules for Pathfinder.
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Plus, you are being a jerk to two camps. First, you are mis-labeling a group by saying that the playstyle that they use is like something they aren't playing. Second, you are saying that in the way the implies WoW is derogatory and somehow "bad".
I don't play WoW myself, but I'm not sure why it would be a problem if someone did, or if someone wanted to play in a pen-and-paper game that was similar to it.
This statement kind of smacks of jerky elitism. It's not really a good argument for or against anything here.
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Don't most of Paizo's adventure paths occur in a timeframe that's less than a couple months? Most of their adventure paths go through the course of levels 1-15 in that time.
The one I just finished running certainly did. I had to chop crafting times for the sake of two PCs getting to live up to their theme. The Sarenraen cleric wanted his sword to be an ongoing project that he could upgrade throughout the campaign. The Shoanti alchemist just wanted to make wings of flying that she made on her own. Neither of those characters could have fulfilled those goals within that campaign using the craft rules as written.
And a big ol' +1 on the snotty WoW remarks.
Crafting isn't PFS legal so i dont even see the issue here. You don't like the rules, dont use em and write your own. Some others posted that having a system that actually covers ALL the items would take tomes, yeah probably. On another side, what makes sense to one group will not make sense to another- as is the case now. some believe that taking a year + to make full plate is ok, others say its crap. You reverse that into a week to make full plate and you STILL will have people saying it's broken-it should take longer. The reason I feel that paizo will never redo the crafting rules is so many will never be satisfied and the case will flip flop.
I honestly don't even see the point in crafting. Players play adventurers, not crafters. we have the classes fighter, wizard, cleric, thief etc. Armorer, weaponsmith, and alchemist are NOT classes in the book. People mentioned that adventurers are all powerful and superhuman so should be able to make items in mere days. That made me laugh hysterically! So because you can slay dragons and evil mages you can craft weapons at superhuman speed with the quality of a master smith? Ok you feel your character is super human- GO DO SUPERHUMAN THINGS! Like, slaying a dragon with the equivalent of a needle(to it), destroying mad wizards of demigod status, saving the planet, or over throwing an evil god.
Oh i forgot the most famous, smith a suit of platemail in a week lol. Afterall, who hasn't heard the story of the great Arvandor Fastplate? No? He was that greatest of heroes. He bested the greatest of all villains-TIME. He managed to construct a suit of full plate mail in 7 days as apposed to a year! You can buy the book on amazon and read all about his exploits of how he hammered faster than any man while enduring the grueling temperatures of the forge. I even hear Pathfinder is going to make an adventure ap about him, unfortunately its only going to be one book and to fill it they plan on using pictures and pop-ups.
Seriously though, while some fluff is all that really is the reward of crafting stuff yourself it's fluff left to non-heroes. Why would a hero risk everything at stake to slow a party down just so he can say " well the village got destroyed but i have this awesome masterwork longsword that i crafted myself, behold its greatness" Party- "great now we just took time off so you can have a mwk longsword when we have 6 we need to sell to the town that just got destroyed". Player-" yeah but this one is cooler because I CRAFTED IT MYSELF!"
Usually though crafting isn't even about the "fluff". it's about creating items just to save a few gold coins. Why would a player insist on making his own when he could just buy a masterwork item in the first place? It's not like your trying to buy a +5 vorpal. You don't like the rules then write your own as GM. If your a player, just get over it and play the game AS A HERO NOT AN ARMORSMITH!
One issue i haven't seen addressed is what speeding up crafting would do to the world in general. If you could craft fullplate in a week why would anyone take a profession? HMMM you could make a few gold with a profession or >495 as an armorsmith in a week. everyone would be a smith. Weapons and armor would be worthless and hence iron would be worthless. This would effect the whole world. Another problem is, ok you can make fullplate in a week. since you can make things while adventuring it opens the door for players to craft costly items while adventuring AND SELLING THEM. obviously this will open up a can of worms. And why would a person ever adventure in he first place if he could easily make 24,740 gold in a year crafting and selling items? yeah i know it cost 1/3 the price to craft and that is including that. If you dont think thats broken let a 1st level PC start with 24k gold. after all a human could spend his 17th year strait crafting and selling so a 1st level starting PC should have that much right? NO? whats the difference? If the mechanic works in game you need the same mechanic for the entire game-beginning to end.
Are the crafting rules perfect? NO. Do most people houserule them? Seems so. even without houseruling i dont see anything that says you can't aid another on craft, thats a possible +2 per person to the check. You can take +10 on the DC- again it does not say you can only do this once. You could take +50 as far as i'm concerned. i had some players work together to craft some full plate and pulled it off in 10 weeks at lvl ten with lots of help and co-operating. And that was per the rules. Like everyone i now use some housrules. for ever 5 you make over the DC check you multiply your check X1 (if the dc was 20 2x at 25, 3x at 30 etc.)You can also combine Profession ranks (armorer, weaponsmith, alchemist, etc) to the appropriate craft check effectively doubling. IS that perfect? NO. but it's simple and works for us. point is, you don't like the rules work up some new ones.
I conclude with saying that i agree with the OP. craft is not broken, (though not with the reasons he gives). It's not broken because to actually BE broken you actually have to have a mechanic that effects the game in a meaningfull way. To me, arguing that craft is broken is like arguing that red capes or blue hats are broken. It simply has no mechanical effect on the game other than fluff. If you want to make swords instead of using them then give up using the sword and devote your time to making them. Real heroes get there weapons the heroic way- killing evil guys and taking there stuff, having it given to them by important people, or finding it doing heroic things.
Don't most of Paizo's adventure paths occur in a timeframe that's less than a couple months? Most of their adventure paths go through the course of levels 1-15 in that time.The one I just finished running certainly did. I had to chop crafting times for the sake of two PCs getting to live up to their theme. The Sarenraen cleric wanted his sword to be an ongoing project that he could upgrade throughout the campaign. The Shoanti alchemist just wanted to make wings of flying that she made on her own. Neither of those characters could have fulfilled those goals within that campaign using the craft rules as written.
And a big ol' +1 on the snotty WoW remarks.
The problem with this is not the mechanic. If your using an AP with a timeframe (most of them)then you should relay to your players ahead of time as such. This is no different than letting a player play a pirate when you know the campaign will take place in a dessert and not informing him. Plus the GM can always make exceptions, unless PFS play. But, then again craft is not PFS legal. If your player wants to make wings of flying himself then you have options as a GM-it's your campaign! tie it in with a good story arc! you know, run a good fantasy game! Perhaps you can include a gryphon with a special template or have the PC's discover a dead Pegasus. When the players do a knowledge check tell him something along these lines "the Pegasus was slain by a dragon it seems and the corpse still radiates magic absorbed from the dragon. You also detect a slight divine radiance emanating from the corpse, perhaps a diety wishes you to avaenge it's death? You surmise that the Pegasus's wings would easily take to crafting and would readily except your touch" now allow the PC a +50, +100, +1000, or whatever you want him to have to get his item he wants in the time frame you want him to have it. If a character wants an item for special meaning or has a good reason or story for the item then there's no reason you can't tie it into the AP. My problem is the characters that want to adventure but want to make 2-10 items per level so they can just get a power curve.
There's two problems being discussed here.
1. The crafting rules themselves don't make logical sense. They are "broken" in that there's no logical correlation between why the check/time is related to the sale value of the item.
2. Adventuring doesn't lend to practical uses of the craft skill in the game.
@RunebladeX
You're posts have been discussing the 2nd point I mention: how the speed of crafting affects the adventuring character.
The problem is that regardless of what you do with that, the inherent rule relying on sale value still makes this a broken rule.
It's not ruining the game, but it's still a broken mechanic.
I feel the same way about Tumbling vs Maneuver Defense (strength? deflection bonuses? boneless armor? what do these have to do with getting an AoO on someone tumbling away from you?).
There's something to be said about wanting your ruleset to have a logical sense to it. It's not the end of the world, but to claim it's not broken because you can avoid the issue or ignore the logical problems is not a good argument.
I honestly don't even see the point in crafting. Players play adventurers, not crafters. we have the classes fighter, wizard, cleric, thief etc. Armorer, weaponsmith, and alchemist are NOT classes in the book. People mentioned that adventurers are all powerful and superhuman so should be able to make items in mere days. That made me laugh hysterically! So because you can slay dragons and evil mages you can craft weapons at superhuman speed with the quality of a master smith? Ok you feel your character is super human- GO DO SUPERHUMAN THINGS! Like, slaying a dragon with the equivalent of a needle(to it), destroying mad wizards of demigod status, saving the planet, or over throwing an evil god.
1) Alchemist is a class in the game.
2) My character may make his living as an adventurer, but that doesn't mean the Ranger who has appointed himself Warden of the Wilds shouldn't be able to craft a mighty bow from the great oak at the forest's heart, and fletch his own arrows on the go. Nor does it make the image of the mighty warrior laboring at the forge to produce a weapon or armor of superlative quality any less iconic. Any number of characters of legend were known for superlative crafting skill among other heroic traits; Miyamoto Musashi springs immediately to mind. So why exactly can't I be a hero AND an armorsmith?3) For that matter, by the rules of D&D, you have to be a hero to be an armorsmith of any quality. Where else do the skill ranks come from if you're not gaining XP?
Perrin from the Wheel of Time books is not a valid character type for PFRPG.
Wolf Shaman with a level of ranger.
He's also a blacksmith who forges weapons for himself several times in the stories, and not over an extended period of time.Perrin from the Wheel of Time books is not a valid character type for PFRPG.
Wolf Shaman with a level of ranger.
Oh gosh, if it happens in a fantasy novel it must be true.
Oh gosh, if it happens in a fantasy novel it must be true.
True in real life? Not at all.
But true for a game world that is based, in large part, on fantasy novels? If not, then maybe we should stop and think a bit, instead of airily dismissing the concern.
It seems then that most people agree on this:
If you want Craft to be used by the players in a relatively short time-frame try Making Craft Work or Houseuling it.
If you don't mind Crafting taking a long time use the RAW.
If you more want realism in Crafting try Houseruling it.
He's also a blacksmith who forges weapons for himself several times in the stories, and not over an extended period of time.
Ahhh, you mean the forging your own weapon thing doesn't work with the craft rules. Yes, and thats a big reason people want to change them.
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It is in my mind.
History and fantasy are rife with master swordsmen also being master weaponsmiths. Especially (but not exclusively) in Japanese lore and history.
Whenever I ponder why Craft is a class skill, I think about a member of that class actually using it in a game.
If Craft was never meant to be used in a game, why is it a class skill for so many characters?
That said, if Craft is used in a game, how do you picture it happening? A level 5 fighter taking a year off to make a suit of armor he could buy with the proceeds from a few days of dungeoncrawling? Suddenly it's not so great a skill, is it?
So again, what's the point?
I've also been consistently disappointed that masterwork is only a binary, yes/no kind of thing. There should be more to it, like in Rolemaster or Palladium Fantasy, where you can enhance it farther and farther, with exponentially increasing demands in effort, skill and materials, until you have something that rivals magic weapons.
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It is in my mind.
Whenever I ponder why Craft is a class skill, I think about a member of that class actually using it in a game.
If Craft was never meant to be used in a game, why is it a class skill for so many characters?
That said, if Craft is used in a game, how do you picture it happening? A level 5 fighter taking a year off to make a suit of armor he could buy with the proceeds from a few days of dungeoncrawling? Suddenly it's not so great a skill, is it?
So again, what's the point?
I've also been consistently disappointed that masterwork is only a binary, yes/no kind of thing. There should be more to it, like in Rolemaster or Palladium Fantasy, where you can enhance it farther and farther, with exponentially increasing demands in effort, skill and materials, until you have something that rivals magic weapons.
Alchemy, ammunition, hobby, something to say you built with your own two hands over a lengthy period, way to make a little extra cash...the list goes on. It isn't all about the suit of armor. Look at the entire system, not just the extremes.
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Alchemy, ammunition, hobby, something to say you built with your own two hands over a lengthy period, way to make a little extra cash...the list goes on. It isn't all about the suit of armor. Look at the entire system, not just the extremes.It is in my mind.
Whenever I ponder why Craft is a class skill, I think about a member of that class actually using it in a game.
If Craft was never meant to be used in a game, why is it a class skill for so many characters?
That said, if Craft is used in a game, how do you picture it happening? A level 5 fighter taking a year off to make a suit of armor he could buy with the proceeds from a few days of dungeoncrawling? Suddenly it's not so great a skill, is it?
So again, what's the point?
I've also been consistently disappointed that masterwork is only a binary, yes/no kind of thing. There should be more to it, like in Rolemaster or Palladium Fantasy, where you can enhance it farther and farther, with exponentially increasing demands in effort, skill and materials, until you have something that rivals magic weapons.
Yeah, well the point is that nobody wants to have craft as a hobby. The only time craft worked as a hobby was in an eberron campaign where i played a warforged who carved small figurines all night while on watch. If i devote actual skill ranks to craft, i want it to mean something. And that means a suit of armor, a masterwork weapon to be enchanted. Also alchemy also takes way way too long. For any high DC poison, i need months to make it. Even with feats. Plus, if craft was meant for npcs. There would be no need for it in the crb as it is useless to players, and the game is about players, not npcs.
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Yeah, well the point is that nobody wants to have craft as a hobby. The only time craft worked as a hobby was in an eberron campaign where i played a warforged who carved small figurines all night while on watch. If i devote actual skill ranks to craft, i want it to mean something. And that means a suit of armor, a masterwork weapon to be enchanted. Also alchemy also takes way way too long. For any high DC poison, i need months to make it. Even with feats. Plus, if craft was meant for npcs. There would be no need for it in the crb as it is useless to players, and the game is about players, not npcs.Alchemy, ammunition, hobby, something to say you built with your own two hands over a lengthy period, way to make a little extra cash...the list goes on. It isn't all about the suit of armor. Look at the entire system, not just the extremes.It is in my mind.
Whenever I ponder why Craft is a class skill, I think about a member of that class actually using it in a game.
If Craft was never meant to be used in a game, why is it a class skill for so many characters?
That said, if Craft is used in a game, how do you picture it happening? A level 5 fighter taking a year off to make a suit of armor he could buy with the proceeds from a few days of dungeoncrawling? Suddenly it's not so great a skill, is it?
So again, what's the point?
I've also been consistently disappointed that masterwork is only a binary, yes/no kind of thing. There should be more to it, like in Rolemaster or Palladium Fantasy, where you can enhance it farther and farther, with exponentially increasing demands in effort, skill and materials, until you have something that rivals magic weapons.
Ring of Sustenance
Aura faint conjuration; CL 5th
Slot ring; Price 2,500 gp; Weight —
Description
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
Construction
Requirements Forge Ring, create food and water; Cost 1,250 gp
Alchemy, ammunition, hobby, something to say you built with your own two hands over a lengthy period, way to make a little extra cash...the list goes on. It isn't all about the suit of armor. Look at the entire system, not just the extremes.
The extreme would be poison, where you apparently need to spend 6 months of quality alone time with either a snake or a rare flower to get anything done.
Where the system breaks down, and where most people complain, is with weapons. There's a bond between a craftsman and his art that's much like that between a warrior and his art: the two go together but the long crafting times and breakneck pace of most adventurer's lives conspire to keep them apart.
Alchemy, ammunition, hobby, something to say you built with your own two hands over a lengthy period, way to make a little extra cash...the list goes on. It isn't all about the suit of armor. Look at the entire system, not just the extremes.The extreme would be poison, where you apparently need to spend 6 months of quality alone time with either a snake or a rare flower to get anything done.
Where the system breaks down, and where most people complain, is with weapons. There's a bond between a craftsman and his art that's much like that between a warrior and his art: the two go together but the long crafting times and breakneck pace of most adventurer's lives conspire to keep them apart.
Poison is a BS complaint, there is an easy way to make it quickly, Jewelery is where the skill really falls apart.
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Good on the OP. I agree. So it takes time, and? Boring to me is a game that only exists to move little plastic pieces about a battle-mat. Skills like craft allow an 'actual' fantasy world to exist out side of combat.
So a big thumbs up to the OP - the system is not broken, it allows PC's and NPC's to craft goods - it's purpose after all. The complaints seem mainly that the skills doesn't allow you to put +5 holy vorpal defender avenger swords out of your PC's butt every 4.32 seconds.
S.
PS: Does the OP want to write something about the bleeting of those complaining that Paizo have failed to make a class that has full BAB, full casting (both arcane and divine - spontaneously of course), d10 hit dice, and good in all saves yet. "Oh woe is me, I NEED a party of other players to be effective. What a stupid game."
<sigh>
The complaints seem mainly that the skills doesn't allow you to put +5 holy vorpal defender avenger swords out of your PC's butt every 4.32 seconds.
Actually the complaints are more like:
-The crafting rules use the illogical basis of determining crafting time via sale value.-It takes far longer to make use of than is reasonable using most published APs, begging the question of why it is a skill on PC class lists anyway, or even a skill at all if it isn't meant to be able to be used.
-Crafting complicated items may go quicker than crafting simple items since the item's DC times your skill check determines your progress.
All seem like legitimate complaints to me.
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Good on the OP. I agree. So it takes time, and? Boring to me is a game that only exists to move little plastic pieces about a battle-mat. Skills like craft allow an 'actual' fantasy world to exist out side of combat.
So a big thumbs up to the OP - the system is not broken, it allows PC's and NPC's to craft goods - it's purpose after all. The complaints seem mainly that the skills doesn't allow you to put +5 holy vorpal defender avenger swords out of your PC's butt every 4.32 seconds.
S.
PS: Does the OP want to write something about the bleeting of those complaining that Paizo have failed to make a class that has full BAB, full casting (both arcane and divine - spontaneously of course), d10 hit dice, and good in all saves yet. "Oh woe is me, I NEED a party of other players to be effective. What a stupid game."
<sigh>
Don't get me started on Pathfinder Society.
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-Crafting complicated items may go quicker than crafting simple items since the item's DC times your skill check determines your progress.
All seem like legitimate complaints to me.
This I agree with. You are correct that is silly. As for the other point you make, this is a consequence of the errosion/destruction of what has been termed Gygaxian Naturalism. PC's now wander along kill a couple of things, a ding noise is heard, perhaps they are bathed in a golden glow for a few seconds and preso - a level! The skill rules work fine if you re-introduce the very smart idea of 'needing training' and 'training expenses' helps removed gold from PC's. I'm not saying a GM can't but the current rules promote characters being things that go from fight to fight, tied together with a story, with little regard to the 'outside' world other than the bits directly related to the adventure. Making plans for castles and working out how to pay for the castle staff was what high-level was about in the dim dark past.
Some like that, obviously as game design has gone this way. I myself had and have no issues with the idea of training and training times etc.
S.
-Crafting complicated items may go quicker than crafting simple items since the item's DC times your skill check determines your progress.
All seem like legitimate complaints to me.This I agree with. You are correct that is silly. As for the other point you make, this is a consequence of the errosion/destruction of what has been termed Gygaxian Naturalism. PC's now wander along kill a couple of things, a ding noise is heard, perhaps they are bathed in a golden glow for a few seconds and preso - a level! The skill rules work fine if you re-introduce the very smart idea of 'needing training' and 'training expenses' helps removed gold from PC's. I'm not saying a GM can't but the current rules promote characters being things that go from fight to fight, tied together with a story, with little regard to the 'outside' world other than the bits directly related to the adventure. Making plans for castles and working out how to pay for the castle staff was what high-level was about in the dim dark past.
Some like that, obviously as game design has gone this way. I myself had and have no issues with the idea of training and training times etc.
S.
My group used to use training for levels, not just in 2eAD&D (the edition I started in), but well into 3.5 as well. We've used: 1 day per level, 1 week per level, and 1d4 days over the course of various campaigns, with the addition of needing to find someone to train you if you were looking to do something not quite covered by the rules of if you were entering a different class. Training broke down though. If you could get better by practicing your skills, doing push-ups, and so on in town, why didn't you just do that until you were at high enough levels to steamroll your current situation? A game would feel forced and contrived if matters were always pressing to prevent this. Why did you need to go out and meet so many encounters (for practical experience?)? If characters were getting practice and practical experience as they adventured and met challenges, why did they need to pause and train, or even find a trainer, to make them put all of the pieces together; aren't they basically "training" as they go along? And how did our characters magically know when we had enough experience to level and needed to go and find a trainer to gain aforementioned level? What were you supposed to do when there was a deadline that prevented leveling because of training time or the lack of the ability to find a trainer? Could a DM have too much control over how your character develops simply by stating that there is nobody to train you in the class that you want to make the character that you envisoned? If we adventure for gold, but need to spend that gold to level up to continue to adventure for more gold, why do we bother continuing the viscious cycle that will surely one day kills us? With these issues and others gradually bubbling up, we scrapped "training".
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My group used to use training for levels, not just in 2eAD&D (the edition I started in), but well into 3.5 as well. We've used: 1 day per level, 1 week per level, and 1d4 days over the course of various campaigns, with the addition of needing to find someone to train you if you were looking to do something not quite covered by the rules of if you were entering a different class. Training broke down though. If you could get better by practicing your skills, doing push-ups, and so on in town, why didn't you just do that until you were at high enough levels to steamroll your current situation? A game would feel forced and contrived if matters were always pressing to prevent this. Why did you need to go out and meet so many encounters (for practical experience?)? If characters were getting practice and...-Crafting complicated items may go quicker than crafting simple items since the item's DC times your skill check determines your progress.
All seem like legitimate complaints to me.This I agree with. You are correct that is silly. As for the other point you make, this is a consequence of the errosion/destruction of what has been termed Gygaxian Naturalism. PC's now wander along kill a couple of things, a ding noise is heard, perhaps they are bathed in a golden glow for a few seconds and preso - a level! The skill rules work fine if you re-introduce the very smart idea of 'needing training' and 'training expenses' helps removed gold from PC's. I'm not saying a GM can't but the current rules promote characters being things that go from fight to fight, tied together with a story, with little regard to the 'outside' world other than the bits directly related to the adventure. Making plans for castles and working out how to pay for the castle staff was what high-level was about in the dim dark past.
Some like that, obviously as game design has gone this way. I myself had and have no issues with the idea of training and training times etc.
S.
I use training in my campaign - 1 week per every 4 levels and 100g per level. There is no finding a trainer though. I set it up so I could have a little more control over funds. The players think they are getting more money, but they really aren't. It also increases their age (yes, I keep track of every day in my campaign). Since not everyone levels at the same time, the other players have opportunities to, oh say Craft if they wanted to.
As for the reality of training, the perception is that the players are spending their time and money to analysis and reflect on the things they had experienced in the past. To solidify any newly learned abilities. The players would be allowed to do this at any time after they leveled so it did not affect their experience gain.
I am a follower of Gygaxian Naturalism which is "to paint a picture of a 'real' world, which is to say, a world that exists for reasons other than purely gaming ones." When you say it is okay to make a full plate in 1 week because it helps the flow of the game, I am fundamentally opposed to your beliefs. WE WILL NEVER AGREE.
I do not see roleplaying as MMOs, as Pathfinder Society, as the current accepted norm. I have gamed for over 30 years - D&D, Cyberpunk, Pathfinder, everything from a TI-99/4A with a cassette player to load games to the current incarnates of Playstation, and into online games, MUDs, MUSHs, MMOs (DAoC, WoW, currently LoL). But I distinguish the differences between the MMO feel and a roleplay game. When I played Pathfinder Society, I felt as if I was playing an MMO. I was given a task with side quests all of which gave me a monetary system to buy things and increase my character's strength as I saw fit. There was no roleplaying. There was no world to experience. There was no story. The history of my character meant nothing. His personality quirks were rarely seen. The entirety of roleplaying was lost. Hell, the GM was simply a moderator nothing else.
Do not get me wrong, Pathfinder rules work beautifully for my style of play, but when you come out and try to convince me, or anyone with any understanding of roleplaying that 1 week full plate should be allowed...you should drag yourself back to your MMOs because that is exactly what you are playing.
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(1) My group used to use training for levels, not just in 2eAD&D (the edition I started in), but well into 3.5 as well. We've used: 1 day per level, 1 week per level, and 1d4 days over the course of various campaigns, with the addition of needing to find someone to train you if you were looking to do something not quite covered by the rules of if you were entering a different class.(2) Training broke down though. If you could get better by practicing your skills, doing push-ups, and so on in town, why didn't you just do that until you were at high enough levels to steamroll your current situation?
(3) why did they need to pause and train, or even find a trainer
(4) What were you supposed to do when there was a deadline that prevented leveling because of training time or the lack of the ability to find a trainer?
(5) Could a DM have too much control over how your character develops simply by stating that there is nobody to train you in the class that you want to make the character that you envisoned?
(6) If we adventure for gold, but need to spend that gold to level up to continue to adventure for more gold, why do we bother continuing the viscious cycle that will surely one day kills us?
(1) I like it, simple but allows adventure hooks. I may steal your idea if you don't mind.
(2) Same reason everyone doesn't have a PhD from reading wikipedia entries - the experience (no pun intended) of others is what can turn practice into a real skill. I just got back from a trip to Germany to get some hands on training, because all the tinkering around I was doing at work may or may not have ended in success. With training and advice from experts you are better off.
(3) see comment (2)
(4) You didn't level, same thing happen when you didn't have the cash. Again perhaps I missed the point of 'modern' d20 RPG's where the goal was to get from level 1 to 20 in the shortest possible space of time.
(5) A bad DM maybe, but a reasonable DM will fit the 'trainer' into the story.
(6) Why do people adventure in real life? Fame, fortune, revenge, power, etc - basically the full range of human motivations. Well that is the way I would like to see an RPG. The idea it is all about going from 1 to 20 while getting the biggest DPS leaves me cold.
But we all play for differing reasons the OP's comments in general appealed to MY play/DM style. Even if I become president of the World I won't force my play style on any other DM's - I promise.
S.
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Man, the badwrongfun sentiments are starting to multiply too.
tie it in with a good story arc! you know, run a good fantasy game!
Thank you for the implication that I did not run a good fantasy game.
Also, player wanted to make it all with her own bare hands. No easy shortcuts. There was even one point she was presented a way to simply buy a pair. She was tempted for a moment, then got mad and worked even more furiously on getting it done herself.
Personally I'm rather comfortable with the decision to enable that character and the other player's cleric being fulfilled the way they wanted rather than saying "nah, let's just do it like this".
*Wants the system to have normal crafting times based on reality and the amount of money you can earn based on mechanics like those of profession. There are only so many buyers for those goods out there... this would need to rework the reward system however*
Realistic crafting is for realistic folk.
Over-the-top crafting is for over-the-top folk.
PCs over level 10 are over-the-top.
It's not MMO, it's grand fantasy.
Please, OP & OP sycophants, stop obsessing over gritty fantasy and painting everything with that brush. Consider a world with more than level 1-5 thinking.
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As for the reality of training, the perception is that the players are spending their time and money to analysis and reflect on the things they had experienced in the past. To solidify any newly learned abilities. The players would be allowed to do this at any time after they leveled so it did not affect their experience gain.
Crafting quickly breaks immersion for you. That's cool. Just like pausing to train and level up at arbitrary points (knowing you've received enough experience to level), breaks immersion for me.
I am a follower of Gygaxian Naturalism...
Here is precisely why we won't agree.
...When you say it is okay to make a full plate in 1 week because it helps the flow of the game, I am fundamentally opposed to your beliefs. WE WILL NEVER AGREE.
To be fair, you asked if I thought it was okay to have a player make full plate in 1 week and I answered honestly. In truth, I don't care how long it takes to craft as long as the rules are clear, consistent, and make sense. The rules as they stand do not. For the reason I've already outlined:
-The crafting rules use the illogical basis of determining crafting time via sale value.
-It takes far longer to make use of than is reasonable using most published APs, begging the question of why it is a skill on PC class lists anyway, or even a skill at all if it isn't meant to be able to be used.
-Crafting complicated items may go quicker than crafting simple items since the item's DC times your skill check determines your progress.
I do not see roleplaying as MMOs, as Pathfinder Society, as the current accepted norm.
Me neither. Although I don't have any experience with MMOs. I don't even own my own computer- I post primarily from my work PC- so I really don't have enough experience to say one way or another. But seeing as MMOs are a game in an entirely different format I fail to see how one would see them as closely related being on the inside of gamer society.
I have gamed for over 30 years - D&D, Cyberpunk, Pathfinder, everything from a TI-99/4A with a cassette player to load games to the current incarnates of Playstation, and into online games, MUDs, MUSHs, MMOs (DAoC, WoW, currently LoL). But I distinguish the differences between the MMO feel and a roleplay game. When I played Pathfinder Society, I felt as if I was playing an MMO. I was given a task with side quests all of which gave me a monetary system to buy things and increase my character's strength as I saw fit. There was no roleplaying.
The level of roleplaying in a group is entirely dependent on the players themselves. As to organized play- I avoid it because I prefer to game with those I know when at a table.
There was no world to experience. There was no story. The history of my character meant nothing.
Welcome to organized play. When you only have a four hour slot to cover a prebuilt module...
His personality quirks were rarely seen.
You're the player; it isn't anybody else's job to portray your character's personality.
Do not get me wrong, Pathfinder rules work beautifully for my style of play, but when you come out and try to convince me, or anyone with any understanding of roleplaying that 1 week full plate should be allowed...you should drag yourself back to your MMOs because that is exactly what you are playing.
You were the one that brought that subject up. Again, I don't care the time frame as long as the rules are logical and consistent. And again, I've never played an MMO, but I have friends that do and I don't appreciate you trying to use it as an insult, especially directed and me when you were the one who wanted to keep conversation constructive.
(1) My group used to use training for levels, not just in 2eAD&D (the edition I started in), but well into 3.5 as well. We've used: 1 day per level, 1 week per level, and 1d4 days over the course of various campaigns, with the addition of needing to find someone to train you if you were looking to do something not quite covered by the rules of if you were entering a different class.
(1) I like it, simple but allows adventure hooks. I may steal your idea if you don't mind.
When we did use it, I preferred the 1d4 days method. It allowed for a short break to rest and recuperate without breaking pace in an event based adventure.
PCs over level 10 are over-the-top.
Precisely. Post level 6, characters are essentially superhuman considering their skills, spells, and abilities. Why should some characters after a certain point be limited to reality when quite a bit more isn't?
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I do not see roleplaying as MMOs, as Pathfinder Society, as the current accepted norm.Me neither. Although I don't have any experience with MMOs. I don't even own my own computer- I post primarily from my work PC- so I really don't have enough experience to say one way or another. But seeing as MMOs are a game in an entirely different format I fail to see how one would see them as...
You contradict yourself. You say you have no experience yet you agree with me. Huh?
And Pathfinder Society (paper) is the EXACT same format as most MMOs (pixels). That is factual information.