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Mostly looking for opinions, as there doesn't seem to be an official ruling...
So, it seems to be generally accepted to let Gloves of Dueling count for most archetypes that replace Weapon Training.
What about the Sash of The War Champion? For example, allowing it to enhance the Archer's Hawkeye and Trick Shot abilities, or would you grant it as Armor Training 1 and Bravery 1?
What about in an edge case, specifically Weapon Master? Would you rule/agree it grants Armor Training 1 instead of adding to Weapon Training (Which is specifically enhanced by gloves)?
Mobile Fighter is another edge case: it still gets Armor Training, but loses out on AT 3 and 4. Would you agree about just enhancing the armor training bonus, rather than letting it receive the AT3/4 bonuses early?
If Ability A is REPLACING Ability B, then you shouldn´t count as having Ability B anymore,
and items that improve Ability A don´t improve Ability B either.
About the Archtype that still gets SOME Armor Training, but not all, I´m not sure...
But I´m not really sure of your question, either.
Armor Training is a scaling numeric bonus, except for AT1 and 2 (these are all one ability even if the Table calls them out as AT#), which allow Tumbling in Medium/Heavy Armor. After AT2, there is no other benefit of AT, EXCEPT the numeric scaling. I think the Sash WOULD benefit a Mobile Fighter (beyond when they have maxed out their normal AT, i.e. AT2) because they still have the ability... Similarly to how some Classes have Animal Companions, but at different effective Companion Levels, it doesn´t really matter if normally the Mobile Fighter would never reach the upper levels of AT. At low level the Sash would certainly increase them from AT1 to AT2, and I don´t see why the Sash would stop working after that. I will hit the FAQ on this one though.
If Ability A is REPLACING Ability B, then you shouldn´t count as having Ability B anymore,
and items that improve Ability A don´t improve Ability B either.
It seems reasonable to still give the benefit. Otherwise, Archetypes are unnecessarily nerfed by it just because they have different names (technically, any archetype that replaces the standard ability at all shouldn't qualify, regardless of name...) They already downgrade their Weapon Training ability considerably, I doubt it was intended that they would further lose the ability to use gloves.
The Sash is more controversial, depending on the balance of abilities. Bravery seems generally weaker than the replacements, for example. Weapon Master gets weapon training in place of armor training, as well.
You can rule that a fighter can get a custom version that works with his variant's ability (for either item), but that's still a non-solution that relies on DM call, rather than working out of the box.
Similarly to how some Classes have Animal Companions, but at different effective Companion Levels, it doesn´t really matter if normally the Mobile Fighter would never reach the upper levels of AT. At low level the Sash would certainly increase them from AT1 to AT2, and I don´t see why the Sash would stop working after that. I will hit the FAQ on this one though.
Right, I'm thinking that the Sash just improves the bonus to AT3 equivalent.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
How the APG items in this general mold interact with UMD is another good question I haven't seen an official answer to yet.
How the APG items in this general mold interact with UMD is another good question I haven't seen an official answer to yet.
Hrm, has there ever been a ruling on the monks robe in this regard? Do you gain the benefits of improved unarmed strike damage despite not having monk levels in the first place?
I'd assume it would be similar.
...Here's a related question: the sash of the war champion says the character's fighter level "counts as four levels higher for purposes of the Armor Training and Bravery abilities." And the item doesn't say anything like "...has no effect if worn by a character with no levels in the Fighter class." Does that mean that any non-fighter can wear it and get those benefits (-1 to armor check penalty and +1 to fear saves)? Because that'd sure make it a more popular item.
I had always wondered this too- if your normal level is 0, then four higher would be fighter 4. However, I can see how this may not be RAI.
How the APG items in this general mold interact with UMD is another good question I haven't seen an official answer to yet.Hrm, has there ever been a ruling on the monks robe in this regard? Do you gain the benefits of improved unarmed strike damage despite not having monk levels in the first place?
I'd assume it would be similar.
Monk Robes actually have a specific clause to let you wear them when you're not a monk, and gain small benefits from it.
I haven't looked at Monk archetypes, but it may be a good exercise to look at them, and see if any of them change unarmed damage/AC bonus.
For a general ruling, at the very least I would like to see that fighters can benefit from the sash regardless of archetype, even if it's just receiving Bravery and Armor Training 1. Possible Errata is just changing it to only improve Bravery/Armor training by +1, rather than increasing fighter level, and make it only usable by fighters. Then make a note on whether it:
- Adds to Armor Training/Bravery, granting either at level 1 if your archetype does not possess it.
- As above, but one or both will add to whatever replaces the skill.
I would say, let the Bravery replacement be improved, but just grant armor training 1 if they don't have it.
Alternatively, you could leave the "Fighter Only" requirement off. +1dexlim/-1ACP, +1 will against fear doesn't seem too much for 4000gp.
I don't believe it works that way. By being a... say, Ranger lvl 6, doesn't mean you're also a Fighter lvl 0. You have no levels in fighter and no connection to him whatsoever. In programming it's the same. Null values and 0 value are not the same thing. 0 is a number, null is nonexistence. And thus is the case here. Nothing +4 is still nothing.
So, RAW, you can't enhance the abilities that you don't have.
Is it within reason to allow abilities that replace weapon training/bravery to be affected by the Sash and the Gloves? Yes, but if your DM will allow it. RAW, it doesn't work that way.
Nor would it allow the non-fighters who wear the Sash to gain the benefits of Armor Training.
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There are two things to take into account :
- If a class feature replaces another, then you don't have said replaced feature anymore (I'm pretty sure if you had an item which improves Smite Evil and you don't have Smite Evil anymore, no one would be asking if this could work ?) ;
- Archetypes and splat books are sometimes written by different people who could give different names without having the full perspective of some new items - and Gloves of Duelist may be one of these items. Some effects work exactly like Weapon Training, focused only on one kind of weapons ; some are called Weapon Training, some have a more flavorful name.
By RAW, only "Weapon Training" is increased by Gloves of Duelist. If your archetype hasn't the "Weapon Training" class feature, the bonus you get can't be improved.
Now, the problem is to see if this change was intended for balance, or just an overlooked issue = look at the Unarmed Fighter, and you'll see he gets "Weapon Training"... replacing "Weapon Training". By RAW, Unarmed archetype benefits from the gloves.
The change of name is obviously intentional... and I guess the fact GoD don't work with archetypes is also intentional design, as a lot of archetypes have proven a lot "weaker" than the vanilla class.
By RAW, only "Weapon Training" is increased by Gloves of Duelist. If your archetype hasn't the "Weapon Training" class feature, the bonus you get can't be improved.
Now, the problem is to see if this change was intended for balance, or just an overlooked issue = look at the Unarmed Fighter, and you'll see he gets "Weapon Training"... replacing "Weapon Training". By RAW, Unarmed archetype benefits from the gloves.
By RAW, technically, it improves the Fighter's Weapon Training feature only, not the Unarmed Fighter's Weapon Training feature, as they're different features.
And the idea of intentionally neutering an already gimped option doesn't seem logical, unless you mean the archetypes are stronger.
Unrelated, but does anyone know how the hell Archer's Grapples work by rules? Does it just apply the Grappled condition until the person escapes or breaks the arrow?
Gloves do not work if a fighter doesn't have weapon training. Archetypes that rename it can't use it.
You are not treated as having 0 levels in classes you don't have levels in. You have -. - plus 4 is "Learn math again. It doesn't work this way."
Sash does nothing for classes that aren't fighter.
Gloves do not work if a fighter doesn't have weapon training. Archetypes that rename it can't use it.
You are not treated as having 0 levels in classes you don't have levels in. You have -. - plus 4 is "Learn math again. It doesn't work this way."
Sash does nothing for classes that aren't fighter.
Read what I said again. Any Archetype that changes Weapon Training at all cannot use them by RAW, as it's now a different feature sharing the same name.
Agree with the second/third. Sash as is does nothing for non-fighters.
(Whether it should or not is a question for people with a mind for balance. They're much cheaper than Monk's Robes (Which improve unarmed damage and +1 AC as if a 5th level Monk if you aren't) but provide a lesser bonus. Gloves not working are a heavy blow to archetypes, though they're much easier to houserule than the Sash.)
Addendum to the Archer Grapple question: If the arrow just continues to maintain the grapple using the Archer's CMD-4, can the Archer take a further Grapple Shot to attempt to Pin?
Quite frankly, you may just want to move this to the house rules forum.
You know the RAW. RAW says it doesnt work. What you want is a house rule. Theres a more appropriate place for it.