The subject may have promised more than I can deliver in one post, but I'd like to open up this thread to anyone with suggestions about ways to dealing with PC classes that seem to overwhelm the table and imbalance play. What are the weakpoints of each class/archetype and how does one exploits these in order to maintain a sense of balance, challenge, and intrigue to your players.
Examples I can provide:
Class: Wizard
Weakness: spellbook
Exploitation: thievery, bookworms
Result: Inability to prepare most spells, lost spells
Class: Fighter
Weakness: Armor dependance
Exploitation: thievery, Night encounters, seduction/betrayal scene
Result: Fighter is caught unarmored and finds himself surprisingly exposed and squishy without items protecting him
Class: Summoner
Weakness: Tenuous connection with Eidolon
Exploitation: casting of blink, teleport or similar on caster (A flavourful way to do this is a bumbling, well-intentioned ally NPC attempting to buff the summoner)
Result: temporary loss of planar connection removes the Eidolon and the Summoner is left to fend for himself.
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Really good fighters don't need armor that much (they also have a lot of hit-points). Their real weakness is raw damage from multiple empowered touch-attack spells or AoEs targeting lousy Ref save.
Wizards: as per archer, anything that blocks sight. Sneak-attacks by invisible bag-guys. Construct opponents.
Rogues: Bad guys who ready two-hander power-attacks.
Paladins: evil bad guys have Undetectable Alignment and hire lots of neutral minions; paladin has trouble guessing who is who and will end up wasting, or not using, his smites.
Barbarians: ...are walking pincushions, so sic some archers on 'em.
....I would avoid "gimmicky" stuff like targeting spellbooks or holy symbols; make your players feel they're just in over their heads versus smart or very tough opponents.
To me the biggest weakness of the wizard is not the spellbook (destroying it is too much of a dick move for a gm to do all that often). It's the spell component pouch. Most wizards I've seen don't take eschew materials. Last time I played a wizard I carried 6 component pouches: 2 on my belt, 2 in my backpack and 2 in a handy haversack.My DM never actually stole/sundered/pickpocketed them, but it pays to be prepared.
There is of the course the sunderable bonded item or the squishy familiar. It's my opinion that improved familiar is more trouble than it's worth. Yes it's powerful, but it also puts the familiar in a position where the DM could target it.
As a player, I find that having my weaknesses exploited is often unfun. Of course it depends. Getting caught without armor as a fighter is a challenge, but it doesn't eliminate his ability to contribute. Destroying a wizard's spellbook removes their ability to contribute.
If you want to nerf someone, I suggest discussing ways they can tone down their character and coming to an agreement, or using stronger monsters to keep up.
If you and your players enjoy this sort of thing though (which seems like a DM vs PC style to me, but perhaps that's just me) and laugh it all off, well, you can do these things.
Give the rogue enemies that can't be flanked, or better yet, have complete immunity to sneak attack.
If the monk likes maneuvers, give him giant enemies that are pretty much unreasonable to attempt to maneuver against. If he likes grapples specifically, I suggest monsters that are on fire. And covered in spikes, coated in poison. Poisonous fire spikes is what I'm getting at here.
^ On the flip side, PCs are usually very vulnerable to combat maneuvers, because monsters have the size (and usually) the Str advantage. PCs almost always use weapons, so you can disarm them. Grappling and Trip are also nice ways to deny options/actions.
This brings me to sunder. Sunder is an excellent way to destroy the treasures the PCs have found and use. This is a sister technique to stealing their things.
Paladins have strict guidelines to, and it's easy to put them into difficult situations. Or just make non-evil enemies/antagonists.
Clerics have a lot of cool spells besides cure, but they are ultimately expected to heal. Don't give them an idle round where a teammate isn't grievously wounded. A wizard without a spellbook is easy to grievously wound.
Casters hate areas of anti-magic or silence. They also hate not being able to sleep in. Deprive them of rest with the shrill ear-piercing cries of the souls of the dead. Even the haunting melody of fiendish crickets can keep them restless if the souls of the dead are not available. They also hate being counterspelled, and Step Up can be annoying too.
If the party likes illusion spells like mirror image or invis, use monsters with true seeing (a natural ability for some, or a lvl 5 spell to kill an entire school of magic), blindsight, or tremorsense.
To go with the blundering NPC ally, it is clever for him to "acidentally" debuff the party. Make him persistent, or maybe they can't get rid of him because their lord/guildmaster/etc decided to assign this NPC to them. The NPC can just in general ruin things while thinking he's being thoughtful, like yelling at the sneak if he's okay just when he's sneaking by some enemies.
I don't understand players that have fun being reduced to a 7HD human from a 7HD wizard or whatever they were, but if they exist, hopefully these suggestions help facilitate that.
Chugga: There's no reason not to stock up on spell component pouches when they're so cheap, if you're pulling these anti-PC tactics, hopefully the PCs aren't so green as to only have one pouch.
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To go with the blundering NPC ally, it is clever for him to "acidentally" debuff the party. Make him persistent, or maybe they can't get rid of him because their lord/guildmaster/etc decided to assign this NPC to them. The NPC can just in general ruin things while thinking he's being thoughtful, like yelling at the sneak if he's okay just when he's sneaking by some enemies.
That guy would be dead so fast.
Good thing their lord saves a finger or something of Blundering NPC to raise him whenever he dies. Or maybe the NPC is literally a troll that regenerates from mortal wounds.
Do you any idea how much of a wizard's money is tied up in a spellbook?If a DM destroyed my spellbook after I spent thousands of gold to build it, I would never play with them again.
Most wizards sleep with their spellbook. They study it every single day often. They keep more careful track of their spellbook than they do their family. A spellbook is everything to a wizard. Only low level wizards in generally keep their spellbook in a place where it can easily be taken. And letting worms eat it? Really? How did they get there to begin with?
No way I use such tactics on a wizard.
Smoke stick and a brick. Full cover and a sneak attack pretty much weakens everyone.
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There are some exceptions:
- somebody who's after the PCs is pr0 enough to know that a bookless wizard is a vulnerable target (Thieves Guild is after you? Better learn how to hid the spellbook quickly.)
- the PCs do something obviously stupid ("I'll lend this charming elf my spellbook, he said he'll return it tomorrow for sure!")
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I'll participate. In fact, I'll give you everything you need for classes extant and future:
Class: Any
Weakness: Doesn't matter
Exploit: Good GMs don't need to exploit to show they can win the game. Instead, they conduct themselves like adults and address the problem of an overbearing character by engaging in verbal intercourse with the vexing player. This should resolve any problems, and if this course of action should fail, it is certainly more wise to part with the player in an amiable way than to to repair to the trenches of a puerile war.
Result: A most welcome dearth of scratched autocar exteriors or burning piles of excrement found on your doorstep.
There, as the invisible stalker that shows an uncharacteristic talent in diplomacy, you solved a conflict without resorting to unnecessary crassness.
In the meanwhile, I try to get the Phoenix Guards out of my writing style.
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If you want to steal some as important as a spell book do it for a reason. PC pissed you off is not a reason.
Have the Wizards gear stolen by a low level mage desperate to save his family. The wizard is bookless untill they find the young wizard and his defeat gives you a new villian and a new fight. Bookless wizard is handicapped for as long as you need and the Player won't cut you with a dorito.
Kidnap a familiar, sell an animal companion to a circus, hock a magic sword for a gambling debt.
Screwing with the player is a time honored tradition. So is DM-icide so tread carefully PC are crazy and savage, look at what they did to those goblins.
It would not be the first time a competent team is assigned an incompetent member by their boss. It seems no less fair than sundering their stuff and using other techniques to render them incompetent.
I'd like to repeat my caveat though, that these are all things I would not want to see happy to me or my party member. If the DM and party believe that someone has ended up too powerful (and remember power is relative to the party, if the party is powerful, you can just increase the CRs), I would examine that idea with the player. Is his power circumstantial (ie a fire themed mage in the ice dungeon) or a ranger in a warren of his favored enemy? This is there time to shine a little brighter, they'll have trouble later. Send a couple of curveballs at them with enemies that don't match the theme.
If the player is just in general too strong relative to the party, perhaps because he's a competent optimizer while the rest of the party is not, I would (were I that optimizer) prefer to help the party with their mechanics so they can get up to par. I don't mind giving people suggestions with crunch.
There are some people that are allergic to suggestions though, interpreting it as you making their character for them. If they don't want to make their character stronger when given the chance, I don't see why it's fair to expect you to change your character for the worse instead.
It is possible that the party comes to such an agreement. If that's the case, the powered player should comply if he wishes to continue playing with this group. Powering someone down who consents is a much more gentlemanly process. You can agree on spell/feat/etc nerfs (this is difficult to do right), you can let him rebuild and make some worse choices in spells/feats, ask him to change his focus to support, or you can come to another compromise, but just removing a player's ability to contribute is not balance.
If the party and not just a player in it is stronger than you expected, you should increase the CR of your encounters. More monsters, Templates, and/or stronger monsters are a good way to run the same thing as before without killing off the PCs' abilities.
It should be noted that most optimizers can see the difference between a good build, and something that's pure theorycraft. If your player brings Pun-Pun to the table, roll Sense Motive. Is he joking? If not, there's always rocks fall. You just need more rocks.
For the fighter(and most martial types), I would say a big weakness is the reliance on full attack. Ones you get to level 8 or so, most martial types are very reliant on full attacks to get their damage. More so if haste is in play. Almost no one takes vital strike(because is sucks, but that is a different thread), so if you can limit a fighter from taking full attacks by forcing them to constantly move, you significantly lower their damage output without rendering them completely useless.
Special note: some classes and archtypes can get pounce or similar abilities that allows them to more while full attacking. Special care may need to be taken with these abilities.
Enemies that make smart use of full cover with spring attack, fly-by-attack, cast and move, etc are great for exploiting this weakness. Another trick would be to use a group of archers that are spread out, thus limiting the power of melee full attacks.
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Good thing their lord saves a finger or something of Blundering NPC to raise him whenever he dies.
Those True Resurrections are going to get expensive quick.
So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death.
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As I am making a summoner character, I would like to point out that the Master Summoner and Synthesist Archetypes of Summoners, won't/can't be badly affected by "casting of blink, teleport or similar on caster"
Also a normal Summoner would just use a standard action to summon a Monster to fight for him/her once his Eidolon is gone. He is not totally helpless... not to mention the Summon Eidolon spell.
Finally, most characters would have to "fend for himself" if they got teleported away alone.
Exploitation: casting of blink, teleport or similar on caster (A flavourful way to do this is a bumbling, well-intentioned ally NPC attempting to buff the summoner)
Beyond being the biggest jerk move ever, it's also impossible: You can only teleport willing creatures.
As a clarification: I have no particular affinity for unduly disabling characters, and I use these techniques sparingly and in the light of story development. I had wanted these strategies to be available so that beginner GM's ( which are a trained breed, to often left to teach themselves) may look on here and find some useful plot-hooks or ways to ensure that their main boss doesn't get killed before the plot would otherwise allow for it. I realize that last statement is going to bring forth counters along the lines of: "But you shouldn't let your PC's fight something unless their able to kill it, don't put them on a conveyor belt, all campaigns must have sandbox freedom to develop plot" In short, I recognize these concerns, but this is intended for BEGINNERS who have not yet learned these tricks and may just need to have their story on a conveyor belt until they get more comfortable in the GM seat.
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Telling beginner GMs to do things that completely f!#+ over their players and remove their ability to contribute to the game is a great way to turn beginner GMs into never-again-run-a-game GMs.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Myself, I'd prefer to make these available as tools for the right situation. You're just as likely to create never-again-GM's when they find themselves unable to maintain story continuity due to their main boss being killed anti-climactically early. You're just as likely to have other players upset when one person hogs the glory and never has a situation where someone else gets a chance to shine.
Damn it, it happened again! I failed my detect troll thread save!
Grrrrr I read all the posts!!!!!!!
I feel that this would be a more constructive thread if it focused on how to challenge particular classes/builds. Going over ways to make a character (near) useless isn't productive for new GMs or players. Speaking from experience, having my character invalidated at the start of a six hour session because it's a "plot point" and sitting around waiting for the opportunity to contribute isn't fun. It's boring and frustrating.
However, setting up encounters that make it very difficult for a caster to cast spells without incurring attacks of opportunity could be very fun. Localized zones of silence, anti-magic, or difficult terrain make for very interesting encounters too. Mobile encounters that make it difficult for full-attack-fighters to get their shtick is another example.
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Before doing anything like the stuff mentioned in this thread, I would point out that DM's should make sure their PC's are aware that 'the DM' doesn't do ANYTHING to their characters -- their enemies do. Then make sure that this - Rule #1, imo - is always followed. It's NEVER personal, and it's NEVER the DM against the players. If you find it is, it's time to call that night's game and figure out why.
That said...
1. Wizards spellbooks' ARE legitimate targets...for a sufficiently intelligent, long-term-planning enemy. Also, probably one of the hardest to pull off.
2. Wizards in combat -- forget the pouch, sunder the -belt-. Takes care of wands usually also, and extra component pouches they're wearing. Again...sufficiently intelligent warriors might know this. Your average goblin will not.
3. Challenge a wizard -- LOS. Fog works wonders...particularly if its' not magical and dense enough that a simple GoW won't take it out. Multiple low-level opponents and FAST opponents. Humanoids with ranged and ready actions.
4. Warriors -- Yes, their armor, obviously. Stress that people do NOT walk around all day in cities decked in full adventuring gear. Also, conditions that might prompt them to rely on a backup weapon. Too much alcohol can also be interesting.
5. Escort quests. If you've ever played any MMO, EVER, you'll know what I'm talking about. This goes along with the aforementioned idiotic NPC. For you DDO players...think Coyle. =)
6. Rogues. Another rogue...or, more likely, a group. Guilds do NOT like freelancers, and they know ALL your tricks by dint of experience.
7. Rangers. Corrupted animals, corrupting influences, undead. Particularly the bony kind. Areas smeared in places that keep animals out could be an interesting tack.
8. Witches. Why would you want to hurt the poor widdle witch?! =D
But really, all these are pretty much common sense. Every class has weaknesses, and most of them are obvious. The question should be, is the enemy intelligent enough (or the gods cruel enough) to create those situations? If yes...GO FOR IT! Just remember to reward your players too, provided they succeed.
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If you wanted to temporarily 'disable' a spell book, you could arrange for it to get soaked. The wizard could need to 'retrace' and/or 'touch up' some pages before those spells can be safely used again.
Or, if you take the book away completely, provide an enemy wizard's book in short order. Wrong spells, sure, but better than nothing, and eventually a net-gain for said Wizard.
How many things would a PC need to do to dominate in every type of battle/scenario?
Not many, if the DM lacks variety:
-kill axe orcs (get map to orc lair)
-kill axe orc guards (no alarm mechanism in sight)
-more orcs (off-duty, drinking beer)
-SWORD orcs wandering by
-big orcs...with bigger axes
OR
Too many, if the DM's creative:
-seduce/bribe/deceive half-orc (get map to orc lair)
-kill axe orc guards (before they hit gong on wall)
-more orcs (off-duty, drinking beer, they unlock barrels to rumble down at party, ground now a slippery mess, party has torches...)
-orcs' oozy-swarmy-tentacley trash compactor wandering by
-big orcs...with rust monster or construct buddy
It doesn't take 'finding weaknesses' to challenge players, and any sniff of that as a tactic is going to alienate players.
And a 'newbie' DM is likely to have 'newbie' players who won't understand that being screwed in your main ability is an 'opportunity for fun' or that being singled out for being too effective is 'to make gameplay better'.
@newbie DMs: Look for challenges that require different PCs to capitalize on their specific strengths. (Monsters for casters-archers/monsters for melee/a guard monster sitting near alarm to take out for the rogue/etc.)
Strengths may overlap, so perhaps have two such challenges happen concurrently (i.e. Strong Guy #1 lifts the portcullis while Strong Guy#2 holds the door closed/holds off army as they escape.)
An even better route is simply to have a large variety of monster types (ooze/aberration/humanoid/undead/etc) using a variety of attacks(magic blast/magic mental/ranged/melee/gaze/etc.), defenses (swarm/high AC/flight/Spring Attack/cover/incorporeal/reach/etc.) and a variety of settings (3D/hazardous/dark/swampy/webby/etc) and in various quantities.
If you're basing your encounters off of MMORPGs or in static 'flat/no furniture' rooms, you're missing out on all the cinematic possibilities that make pen-and-paper games shine.
You don't even need a (tactical enemy) purpose to the furnishings/ramps/fire pits/chandeliers. Your players will give them tactical purpose. Flesh out your environment/story setting, and random fun things will happen. :)
Lastly: To be worthwhile, characters need stories, which need settings, which need characters...
Any story-driven plot with rich setting (including NPC interaction) will require the whole team to participate in order to overcome the vast variety of challenges presented.
Just saying...
Edit: By which, I mean, there are better uses for your creative/gameplanning energy than focusing on PC weaknesses. PC weaknesses are obvious (as posted above), but addressing them (instead of the story/environment/personalities) doesn't help much.
(Of course, NPC villains, on the other hand, would be very interested in this thread...)
Ah I see where I've gone wrong with this thread. Sean FitzSimon caught my error. Indeed, I wanted to compile a list of good Challenges based on classes. So, yes the spellbook or arcane bond for the wizard. The familiar for the witch. The armour for the fighter. The large enemy for the monk. The tough moral decision for the paladin. In short, challenges that allow the character to develop outside of their reliance on a particular class feature. This challenges the players to get inventive and to try something more risky. So, hoping that I've put this thread back on the rails, what else do we have for challenges?
Ah I see where I've gone wrong with this thread. Sean FitzSimon caught my error. Indeed, I wanted to compile a list of good Challenges based on classes. So, yes the spellbook or arcane bond for the wizard. The familiar for the witch. The armour for the fighter. The large enemy for the monk. The tough moral decision for the paladin. In short, challenges that allow the character to develop outside of their reliance on a particular class feature. This challenges the players to get inventive and to try something more risky. So, hoping that I've put this thread back on the rails, what else do we have for challenges?
A few thoughts for interesting challenges. You'd have to create some of these, but they should fit the bill nicely. =)
1. Wizard/Sorc/Witch/Alch/Caster: A variant of an inevitable designed solely to confound casters. Causes a (on failed save) spellblight with each spell cast that directly targets it or is centered upon it (for AoE's).
2. Warrior/Magus/Barb/Martial: A creature that adheres metal to its' body every strike (pending save); once adhered, the weapon cannot be retrieved until the creature is destroyed. A few of these work nicely. (Note: This creature was one of the Living Statues from the old BECMI D&D, you might find the base stats there)
3. Monk: Any creature with reactive damage. Fire Shields, auras, that sort of thing. Force the monk to rely on other weaponry for a battle. (Not quite as effective if your monk is teeming with other weaponry obviously)
4. Gunslinger: Underwater combat is a quick go-to, be mindful not to destroy all his/her gear and make certain that they aren't loaded to the gills (so to speak) with waterPROOF gear either. Alternately, a battle in a snowy region with an avalanche nearby could be interesting.
5. Barbarian: An encounter in a region where strong emotions simply cannot exist. Think of the old Star Trek field that made everyone sleepy, or the fields that surrounded the Tower of High Sorcery at...Istar, I think it was? If he can bait the creature out of the fields, he can rage just fine though...
6. Paladin: A LG enemy (or even neutrals). LG can sometimes be open to interpretation, especially when different races are involved. Consider the case of an (insane) dragon who thinks that he would be doing the greatest favor in the world to humans if he turned them all into partial lizards, thereby conferring resilience to disease and poison. "How can you call me evil?! All I've done, I've done to PROTECT and HELP your kind!"
Perhaps, perhaps not. Myself, I'd prefer to make these available as tools for the right situation.
However, what you do here is the equivalent of visiting teenage parents and giving them a "kid thrashing bat" that are ostensibly for just the most extreme of situations, like children showing signs of infernal possession. We're talking about young, inexperienced parents here, the first time the baby won't stop crying and they don't know what to do, they'll think it's an extreme situation, or they're simply overwhelmed. And there it is, the nice, shiny bat, that will look very inviting.
Similarly, you have new GMs who don't know what extreme situations are, and give them a dangerous weapon. How are they going to know when players are really bad? They have no real reference.
A responsible GM trying to teach the next generation will help them with the actual situations that do come up, not with over-the-top jerk moves they don't know how to employ properly (which is funny, because those moves' right time is never).
Before doing anything like the stuff mentioned in this thread, I would point out that DM's should make sure their PC's are aware that 'the DM' doesn't do ANYTHING to their characters -- their enemies do.
This could not be more wrong. Everything that is done is done by the GM. A bad GM can't hide behind NPCs. The GM is always responsible for everyhing that happens. It's his job to make sure not to have his NPCs do stuff that will provide a crappy game experience.
And while players shouldn't be too pansy and expect nothing bad can happen to them, there are plenty of ways for a GM to cross lines.
Then make sure that this - Rule #1, imo - is always followed. It's NEVER personal, and it's NEVER the DM against the players.
That is a very good rule. However, it is a rule about conduct, not how things are. So it's better formulated as "The GM (and players, actually) should never make things personal, pick on other players, or do other sorts of metagaming." That makes it more clear that we're stating that such behaviour is inappropriate, not that it is impossible.
1. Wizards spellbooks' ARE legitimate targets...for a sufficiently intelligent, long-term-planning enemy. Also, probably one of the hardest to pull off.
Make sure, though, to tell the players before the campaign that you in the course of the game, enemies might target spellbooks and the like, so players can prepare for this. Because in many games, there is an unspoken agreement that stunts like that aren't pulled.
2. Wizards in combat -- forget the pouch, sunder the -belt-. Takes care of wands usually also, and extra component pouches they're wearing. Again...sufficiently intelligent warriors might know this. Your average goblin will not.
As with everything, take a note that this opens a door: Show the players that stuff like this is fair game, and they'll do the same to your NPCs.
4. Warriors -- Yes, their armor, obviously. Stress that people do NOT walk around all day in cities decked in full adventuring gear. Also, conditions that might prompt them to rely on a backup weapon. Too much alcohol can also be interesting.
If you tell them they can't use their gear in cities and then spring enemies on them that do, they'll turn outlaw simply to save their lives.
And note that destroying armour will probably be seen as a jerk move, especially if you don't award them extra treasure to make up for the equipment they keep losing to sunder attempts.
5. Escort quests. If you've ever played any MMO, EVER, you'll know what I'm talking about. This goes along with the aforementioned idiotic NPC. For you DDO players...think Coyle. =)
We all know and groan about this. They're probably the most hated aspect of computer games, in that probably everyone agrees that they are crap.
Overdo it (say, more than once a campaign) and you'll find that while computer designers are save from irate players, you are not...
6. Rogues. Another rogue...or, more likely, a group. Guilds do NOT like freelancers, and they know ALL your tricks by dint of experience.
There are rogues' guilds? I think not. There might be thieves' guilds and assassins' guilds, but not general guilds. So make sure before you sic a guild on a character with rogue levels that he is one of the old stereotypes, not just an adventurer who specialises in traps and a more relaxed approach to honourable conduct in combat.
Plus, how would they know all his tricks? Chances are that this rogue, being a PC, is an exceptional person destined for greatness.
Plus, the stories are full of freelancers who outwit the guilds.
7. Rangers. Corrupted animals, corrupting influences, undead. Particularly the bony kind. Areas smeared in places that keep animals out could be an interesting tack.
That should not be a problem for a ranger. He can have undead as favoured enemies, and if he has an animal companion, it's an exceptional specimen that will not necessarily be deterred by undead or anti-animal stink.
the spellbook or arcane bond for the wizard. The familiar for the witch. The armour for the fighter. The large enemy for the monk. The tough moral decision for the paladin. In short, challenges that allow the character to develop outside of their reliance on a particular class feature.
Note that for the wizard and the witch, the "class feature" you mention is basically all they get. By taking that away, you turn them into commoners.
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the spellbook or arcane bond for the wizard. The familiar for the witch. The armour for the fighter. The large enemy for the monk. The tough moral decision for the paladin. In short, challenges that allow the character to develop outside of their reliance on a particular class feature.Note that for the wizard and the witch, the "class feature" you mention is basically all they get. By taking that away, you turn them into commoners.
I think you need to re-read the witch. Because hexes should still work.
@KaeYoss:You presume to speak for most players and GM's and you may be correct in a lot of your assumptions, but I wonder if you are being contrary just to play devil's advocate. When someone refers to a rogue guild knowing all of a PC's tricks, most people understand that the term "Assassin's guild" would be more appropriate and that "knowing all their tricks" means that they will be more vigilant against other rogues and have some similar abilities. Of course the PC is destined for greatness, but that doesn't mean they don't have to earn it. Honestly, I wonder if you would coddle your own players in this way. Essentially you've said: "Oh, I don't want to risk giving you a challenge, you might not like me for that." It's part of the experience to see just how far into the jaws of defeat a player can go while still snatching victory and coming back. This is THE literary device. I mean that you would be hard pressed to find a story where the hero never changed, or grew as a person before defeating their final opponent. Sometimes it looks linear with constant growth, but a good story is one where you are forced to face your weaknesses and overcome them.
@Kthulhu: True, as I've said, I'm not looking to completely cripple these PC's, that was never the point. Having your familiar captured and having only the limited spells you have already prepared and your hexes would be a very interesting challenge for a witch, I think.
Stupid Monster's someone was paid to make.
Read this guy's article, particularly the part about the monster ceiling, the monster floor, and the monster walls.
Wouldn't it be more of a challenge for a wizard to wisely ration out there spells, or come up with creative solutions to problems, rather then sundering there spell book? I mean if a wizard has to protect the party from scryings so winged monkies don't descend on them, provide distractions so the rogue can be all rogue-like, enable the fighter to ambush the winged monkies, and then disable the great and powerful oz, that's a bit more of a challenge then making a backup spellbook.
Also the wizards real weakness is beatings.
If the GM had a habbit of targeting the spellbook on my wizard I would counter this by having all the spells tattooed onto the wizards skin.
In regards to the fighter, if they were an AC tank I would go for the sunder against that armor and shield to see what I can do to bring them down to size.
But these kinds of tactics, they should not be occuring all the time. A proper GM knows when to break out the nasty tricks against the players and when to let them feel powerful.
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Good thing their lord saves a finger or something of Blundering NPC to raise him whenever he dies.
Those True Resurrections are going to get expensive quick.
So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death.
That's why I clone all of my minions, and name them all Gary.
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- A wizard can gain any spell he wants, via the spells he gains when he levels.
Yeesh, I dunno about that. I'd exclude Wish and Limited Wish from the "anything you want" list.
All spells have 75% chance of being available in any town. This allow the wizard to get any spell if he has some money.
Yup. The village of twenty people, three dogs, and one goat is 75% likely to have a scroll of Wish. Of course. After all, that place is rich in magic! Why, just three generations back, old Mammie was a 2nd level adept!