Continuing items that come up while discussing the Kingmaker AP.
What kind of class/build would make a good ruler of a nation or region?
(I am not planning on running this because I don't think we will be playing the Kingmaker AP, we're just curious.)
Wizard is intelligent, but likely to be obsessed with his magical research.
Cleric is wise, but he really should be devoted to his god plus theocracies always have problems over time.
Fighter/Barbarian is probably good at taking a kingdom, but do you really want a ruler who's go-to solution is hack it to death?
Bard is liked by everyone, but sometimes a ruler should make decisions that won't be liked.
Druid, what does nature boy know about running a kingdom.
Monk, hmm.... uh no. just no.
Etc...
Seems to me like the best would be a combination of noble and rogue. And if you think about it, that probably also matches reality pretty well.
I dont think any of the classes truly makes a bad ruler, it depends on the personality and temperment of the character. Not all wizards are reasearch obsessed, not all fighters only want to smash things (think Roy from Order of the stick), and there is no reason why a bard cant make hard descisions.
Isn't the right answer Paladin?
Isn't the right answer Paladin?
Then won't your whole country be going on crusade all the time?
I'd say a druid is much better than you realize. Is unique understanding of the antural world allows him to continually produce and agriculturally and industrially sound kingdom that does not interfere too much with the natural course. His status as a druid would give him unparalleled diplomatic advantage when it comes to the fey or other such creatures who would respect a druid.
Rogues work remarkably well too.
Barbarians? Well, rule of strength is a big deal in many nations. You can;t win trial by combats if you can't fight worht a damn.
Isn't the right answer Paladin?Then won't your whole country be going on crusade all the time?
Paladins value eradicating evil, and have an absolute ability to detect it. So if your country goes on a crusade, you can be sure that they are evil. Paladins value order, and constant war doesn't leave much room for that, so they would only disrupt that order if it was for the greater good.
Plus the paladin knows if they willingly commit an evil act, and it's fairly easy for others to tell as well, so you have that as an insurance policy.
My group has just started Kingmaker. We went with the sorcerer for king, since high charisma mechanically works for the position.
From a roleplaying standpoint, I think sorcerer works fine. The class gives the king a lot of spontaneous magic to deal with threats, but doesn't have the emphasis on research like the wizard class. Our king may not have exceptional intelligence, but has advisors for that.
On the subject of clerics it really depends on the god. Abadarian clerics for example would be guaranteed to keep the kingdom in order as that's a part of their whole deal.
...So a safty net of good councle who can't be swaped out like bathroom paper will be vital.
So how do you determine who is on the "good council?"
...So a safty net of good councle who can't be swaped out like bathroom paper will be vital.So how do you determine who is on the "good council?"
Paladins! All the way down.
...Paladins! All the way down.
Ever heard the expression, "you can only cheat an honest man."
Our nation is led by a heavens oracle. She's got charisma out the yin yang, and can commune daily for intelligence gathering. Fluffwise, she's a ruthless negotiator who has dealt with every problem presented to the country with a nearly ruthless efficiency. If some god put her there to do a job, she's going to do it well, after all.
...I think sorcerer works fine. The class gives the king a lot of spontaneous magic to deal with threats, but doesn't have the emphasis on research like the wizard class...
Yeah, sorcerer might work pretty well if he's not too much of an idiot (mine tend to be kinda stupid).
Most of the bloodlines might give the population the heebie jeebies though (infernal, aberant, undead, etc...). But Destined or Celestial would probably be good.
Our leader is a monk/warmage. She's got a decent intelligence and wisdom on top of her ludicrous charisma, and LOTS of social skills. (She actually has Open Minded just so she could put skill points in things like Sense Motive and Perform(oratory).) She tends to be strong-willed, but possibly a little headstrong.
Our Council is full of a lot of people who have either a decent intelligence or wisdom (we seem to have very few with both). They are a variety of classes, both PC and NPC, and many of them also have taken the time to put their skill points into social skills.
So I would say the best thing to go with is something that rewards the high Cha that benefits the KM rules, but also allows you to have access to the social skills that benefit a ruler--and if Sense Motive isn't a class skill and your sorcerer dumped his wisdom, convince him to take Skill Focus. :)
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Our leader is a monk/warmage. She's got a decent intelligence and wisdom on top of her ludicrous charisma, and LOTS of social skills. (She actually has Open Minded just so she could put skill points in things like Sense Motive and Perform(oratory).) She tends to be strong-willed, but possibly a little headstrong.
Our Council is full of a lot of people who have either a decent intelligence or wisdom (we seem to have very few with both). They are a variety of classes, both PC and NPC, and many of them also have taken the time to put their skill points into social skills.
So I would say the best thing to go with is something that rewards the high Cha that benefits the KM rules, but also allows you to have access to the social skills that benefit a ruler--and if Sense Motive isn't a class skill and your sorcerer dumped his wisdom, convince him to take Skill Focus. :)
My group just nominated the paladin as the ruler, but they have much to say on most policies.
We're starting to gossip a bit on who will end up as ruler in our KM campaign... we have several CHA-heavy chars (sorc, pally, oracle). The sorc (my char) is basically a teenager and wouldn't have the temperament for it even if he outgrew his immature worldview overnight- way too soft-hearted. The pally has no brains, and the oracle is chilly and pragmatic (Cheliax ex-noble...we segued from another game into KM). I'm starting to feel our alchemist may be the best choice, personality-wise, honestly... he is level-headed and smart. (The last character, our rogue, would probably try to turn all of Brevoy into an orc-styled clan, so yeah, no.)
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We're starting to gossip a bit on who will end up as ruler in our KM campaign... we have several CHA-heavy chars (sorc, pally, oracle). The sorc (my char) is basically a teenager and wouldn't have the temperament for it even if he outgrew his immature worldview overnight- way too soft-hearted. The pally has no brains, and the oracle is chilly and pragmatic (Cheliax ex-noble...we segued from another game into KM). I'm starting to feel our alchemist may be the best choice, personality-wise, honestly... he is level-headed and smart. (The last character, our rogue, would probably try to turn all of Brevoy into an orc-styled clan, so yeah, no.)
It's pretty interesting how everyone handles power. Group dynamics how it is I almost made a npc and made him king so no one would feel left out.
We're starting to gossip a bit on who will end up as ruler in our KM campaign... we have several CHA-heavy chars (sorc, pally, oracle). The sorc (my char) is basically a teenager and wouldn't have the temperament for it even if he outgrew his immature worldview overnight- way too soft-hearted. The pally has no brains, and the oracle is chilly and pragmatic (Cheliax ex-noble...we segued from another game into KM). I'm starting to feel our alchemist may be the best choice, personality-wise, honestly... he is level-headed and smart. (The last character, our rogue, would probably try to turn all of Brevoy into an orc-styled clan, so yeah, no.)It's pretty interesting how everyone handles power. Group dynamics how it is I almost made a npc and made him king so no one would feel left out.
Yeah, it's not all about who has the best stats for it. Charisma is a tricky stat that way, it covers such a broad territory and not all parts are contiguous. Being well-liked, for example, may not have anything to do with being a good ruler and could even be detrimental in some circumstances (as I think someone noted above).
Our oracle by the book likely has the best stats for rulership. She also can't speak in a language most people can understand when she's upset or stressed. That's a pretty big point in the minuses column of this particular decision.
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I am playing a sorceror (infernal bloodline, convinced everyone it is a Draconic bloodline) who is the ruler. I think just about any classs would be a good ruler, if you don't care about the stats. Of course even if you do care, just put your secondary abilty scores in Charisma. It is entirely possible that even a fighter or wizard could have 14 Charisma which is well above average.
Also I noticed no one mentioned Summoner. I think a Summoner would make an excellent leader. First the majority of their power comes from their pet. Leaving them free to concentrate on other things. And second, since their power comes from their pet, they are already adept at giving orders. And finally, Charisma is the most important stat.
im not sure a paladin would be a good choice, a leader has to be able to make tough calls that sometimes conflict with their moral compass. say a plague sweeps the city and you lack enough clerics to heal the number of afflicted. would a paladin be able make the hard choice to quarantine the sick until they die or even outright kill them to prevent spreading.
id say the rogue or fighter personally, bard would be a good choice too i think.
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My campaign's Ruler is an Oracle. Makes sense stat-wise without the crusades that would pop up with Paladins.
Our ruler is actually my cavalier; you get similar stats to a Paladin, plus it seems to make more sense fluff-wise than an oracle. You get to avoid the crusades, and he can be sworn to defend his own kingdom.
It's in the skills, I think. Sense Motive, Intimidate, Bluff and Diplomacy are a must. Knowledge (Nobility), (Local) and (Geography) as a bonus.
Bards can cover that easily. Or Aristocrats.
But this is Pathfinder, and everything is possible. Just pick the right traits, and you got the skills.
Let's see... mechanically it is the rulers charisma that matters, so the obvious choice is: <drum roll>
As others have stated, class is less important than desire and mindset. Pretty much any character that hasn't dumped Cha can make a suitable Ruler in the expanded/updated Kingdom Building mechanics; investing in a circlet of persuasion (4,500 gp) can be a fairly inexpensive way to help the ruler add an extra +3 to the kingdom checks using the kingdom attribute(s) modified by the Ruler's Cha (as it's technically a "Charisma-based check"), so boosting Cha above 12-15 isn't really needed (along with the bonuses from the other leadership roles).
Palidins are fine the people are under the pally's protection not soldiers in the pally's army.
Last time I ran Kingmaker, the ruler was a weak willed bard who was obsessed with pretty, ornate or showy things. Women, horses, rugs, statues, furniture - just about anything flashy found its way into one of his collections. He often came up with some marvellously showy, ornate and intricate policies ... only to have them brought into line by his more hard nosed advisers (the rest of the PCs).
It worked very well :)