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HP: 6 means that a level 1 character has a solid chance of one-blow-kill on the critter
HP: 12 means that most level 1 characters don't have a chance of a one-blow-kill.
And on level 1, the difference between being in a fight one round longer is often the difference of new character sheets made ready.
Also, light sensitivity for Orcs.
I was thinking that too, but doesn't ferocity mean you have to dish 18hp of damage to actually finish off the critter? (to take the orc from 6 to -12)
Yes, but after that one hit to take the Orc to 0, the Orc is staggered. That's a pretty debilitating condition; the Orc can only take one action each turn, so it's not able to both move and attack, for instance. The last 12 hit points are fairly easy pickings at that point.
ever hear of a guy on gleemax named 'Yaba the What?'
he wrote a CR calculation system that utilized a point based mechanic. each benefit had a scaling cost in "feature points" proportionate to the benefit. some benefits synergized better than others. some people would take the more synergistic traits and buyoff the cost with penalties to the less important factors. some people foolishly used it as an excuse to say thier overpowered homebrew race was perfectly balanced. because they were abusing the system, which was based off observations made of the designers. now what the designers should have weighed a character by, was not how many functions that they can perform, but how good thier were at thier best intended function.
the difference between the orc, hobgoblin, and gnoll is a problem similar to the feature point system. some feats work better for some characters than others. and some packages are better than others.
and class levels, whether PC or NPC need thier CR adjusted to show thier inherent superiority to racial hit dice.
the hobgoblin is also benefitting from the elite array. give a gnoll that same array. and it will be stronger as well and beat the hobgoblin.
Also, ferocity doesn't stop the loss of 1 HP per round from the dying condition, so the orc is staggered and still in a dying state (I guess he would still make stabilization rolls, though).
a gnoll fighter to compare to a hobgoblin one.
the brave young gnoll of great skill, Kiskt has helped his tribe survive battle against 15 1st level adventurers over the course of a month. even if he did not personally inflict the finishing blow, he held off 15. because of the 15 corpses he proved so proudly to defeat, he was given permission to spend a month of warrior training under Chieftan Kukk. giving him his first fighter level. since the CR for PC classed characters is class levels -1. the first class level doesn't impact his CR. he has looted the chainmail and claymore of Sir Boris, the bow of Sir Robin, and the dagger of Ratt. when Kiskt reaches his second fighter level, his strength will grow, and 1st level adventurers are no longer a meaningful threat to him.
KISKT, GNOLL CHAMPION OF KUKK, MALE GNOLL FIGHTER 1 CR 1
XP 400
CE Medium humanoid (gnoll)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +2
DEFENSE AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +2 Dexterity, +1 natural)
hp 27 (2d8+6+3+1d10+4)
Fort +8, Ref +2, Will +1
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft. (20 ft in armor)
Melee greatsword +6 (2d6+4/×19/20x2)
Ranged longbow +4 (1d8/×3)
Melee greatsword (power attack) +5 2d6+7
Melee dagger +5 1d4+3
Melee dagger (power attack) +4 1d4+5
STATISTICS Str 17, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +2; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Power Attack weapon focus (greatsword), toughness
Skills Perception +4 Sense Motive +4
Languages Gnoll
possesions, (combat gear) chainmail. greatsword, longbow, quiver with 20 arrows
this is what you should compare the example hobgoblin fighter to.
i simply used the elite array and a PC class level. this gnoll can defeat a hobgoblin. it's all gear a 1st level NPC fighter can use.
Just as an aside - the Orc doesn't necessarily have to be equipped with a falchion, either. A less damaging weapon can definitely reduce their impact on the PCs.
To be honest, I think a Gnoll is BARELY tougher than a single orc. There is no way 1 Gnoll = 3 Orcs in terms of a tough encounter.
You are calculating the CR wrong.
Two creatures of CR X = CR X+2. So, your fractional CR critter goes up two steps. 1/3 -> 1/2 -> 1. So, two orcs equals one gnoll. I'd say that, for a party of first level adventurers, 2 orcs is slightly more challenging than a single gnoll, but only because of action economy. It's not significant enough in my opinion to alter the CRs though.
Kiskt, confident in his strength conquers and enslaves a small hamlet with the help of his tribe. he steals a suit of masterwork plate, a masterwork claymore, a masterwork composite longbow with a +3 strength bonus, learns precision aiming and steals a masterwork dagger from the richer parts of the hamlet he conquered. some slaves have provided him with basic potions for the tribe
KISKT, GNOLL CHAMPION OF KUKK, CONQUERER OF THE GRAND SHIRE. MALE GNOLL FIGHTER 2 CR 2
XP 600
CE Medium humanoid (gnoll)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
DEFENSE AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 20 (+9 armor, +2 Dexterity, +1 natural)
hp 38 (2d8+6+4+2d10+8)
Fort +9, Ref +2, Will +1 (+2 against fear)
OFFENSE Speed 30 ft. (20 ft in armor)
Melee masterwork greatsword +9 (2d6+6/×19/20x2)
Ranged masterwork composite longbow (+4 str) +6 (1d8+4/×3)
Melee masterwork greatsword (power attack) +8 2d6+9
Melee dagger masterwork +7 1d4+4
Melee masterwork dagger (power attack) +6 1d4+6
Ranged. masterwork composite longbow (+4 str) +5 (1d8+6/x3)
STATISTICS Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +7; CMD 19
Feats Power Attack weapon focus (greatsword), toughness deadly aim
Skills Perception +5 Sense Motive +5
Languages Gnoll
bravery +1
possesions, (combat gear) masterwork plate. masterwork greatsword, masterwork composite longbow (+3 str), 3 quivers with 20 arrows each 2 potions of cure moderate wounds (CL3rd)
now for corporal scar. a hobgoblin distuinguished by the unique scar across his face. he has survived many battles with adventurers as well. he is the 2nd level fighter we compare to kisk. scar abandoned his sword and shield in favor of a claymore as well. and got his hands on full plate and a composite bow approrpriate as well
Hobgoblin
CR 1
XP 400
Hobgoblin fighter 2
LE Medium humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +3
DEFENSEAC 20, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+9 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 22 (2d10+11)
Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +1 (+2 against fear)
OFFENSESpeed 30 ft. (20 in armor)
Melee greatsword +6 (2d6+3/19–20)
Ranged longbow +5 (1d8+2/×3)
greatsword +5 (2d6+6/19/20x2)
STATISTICSStr 15, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +2; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Toughness, Weapon Focus (greatsword), power attack
Skills Perception +3, Stealth +1; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth
Languages Common, Goblin
possessions, masterwork full plate, masterwork composite longbow (+2 str) masterwork greatsword, 3 quivers with 20 arrows each, 3 potions of cure moderate wounds (CL3rd) 1 masterwork dagger
a hobgoblin and gnoll fighter of the same build and same number of fighter levels. compare as you wish. same basic equipment, but the gnoll is better in this case. both use the elite array with slightly different priorities.
in a battle of champions, i beleive Kiskt can Defeat Scar.
Just as an aside - the Orc doesn't necessarily have to be equipped with a falchion, either. A less damaging weapon can definitely reduce their impact on the PCs.
Of course then I would still change there weapon focus to their new weapon.
i found out something. a gnoll built to be a fighter is better than a hobgoblin intentionally built for that same purpose. i beleive more DMs may like to borrow Kiskt and prove his glory. he should be an NPC in a 1st level module. maybe protecting his chieftan.
Just as an aside - the Orc doesn't necessarily have to be equipped with a falchion, either. A less damaging weapon can definitely reduce their impact on the PCs.Of course then I would still change there weapon focus to their new weapon.
That makes sense to me! Maybe even give them a small shield to pair with their one handed weapon, bump their AC up to 14.
Also, ferocity doesn't stop the loss of 1 HP per round from the dying condition, so the orc is staggered and still in a dying state (I guess he would still make stabilization rolls, though).
but then isn't there also a long list of actions that causes him to start losing HP again? the orc's dead unless he gets his hands on some healing...
To be honest, I think a Gnoll is BARELY tougher than a single orc. There is no way 1 Gnoll = 3 Orcs in terms of a tough encounter.You are calculating the CR wrong.
Two creatures of CR X = CR X+2. So, your fractional CR critter goes up two steps. 1/3 -> 1/2 -> 1. So, two orcs equals one gnoll. I'd say that, for a party of first level adventurers, 2 orcs is slightly more challenging than a single gnoll, but only because of action economy. It's not significant enough in my opinion to alter the CRs though.
Actually, that formula doesn't apply at very low CRs (CRs below 1).
A CR 1 encounter has an "XP budget" of 400 xp. That's 3 CR 1/3 creatures. (within a margin of error due to rounding).
3 Orc warriors is a CR 1 encounter
Gnolls have racial Hit Dice, and thus things like CR work a little differently for them. If you want a "fair" comparison between an orc warrior and a gnoll warrior, you really should give the gnoll as many levels of warrior as the orc has, in other words.
But, well, isn't a disparity in accurate reporting of challenge an indication that the difference in CR calculation methods is either flawed, or the results should be tweaked by hand?
Versus 3.5, PF orc warriors gained a hp (since warriors went up an HD size), gained ferocity, and lost CR (1/2 to 1/3, since the warrior NPC class went down in value from level-1 to level-2). On the other hand, the gnoll stood still in capabilities and in CR. And gnoll seems to definitely trail the darkmantle, small elemental, ghoul, giant frog, giant spider, and pseudodragon as threats.
I'm tempted to re-score the gnoll as a CR 1/2 monster.
Gnolls have racial Hit Dice, and thus things like CR work a little differently for them. If you want a "fair" comparison between an orc warrior and a gnoll warrior, you really should give the gnoll as many levels of warrior as the orc has, in other words.But, well, isn't a disparity in accurate reporting of challenge an indication that the difference in CR calculation methods is either flawed, or the results should be tweaked by hand?
Versus 3.5, PF orc warriors gained a hp (since warriors went up an HD size), gained ferocity, and lost CR (1/2 to 1/3, since the warrior NPC class went down in value from level-1 to level-2). On the other hand, the gnoll stood still in capabilities and in CR. And gnoll seems to definitely trail the darkmantle, small elemental, ghoul, giant frog, giant spider, and pseudodragon as threats.
I'm tempted to re-score the gnoll as a CR 1/2 monster.
i created a few sample NPCs to prove that an elite array gnoll fighter can actually be quite nasty at the lowest levels. it's amazing what the elite array and a few fighter levels can do for them. though i do agree that CR 1/2 is appropriate for the core gnoll. though my example gnoll fighters are quite threatening for thier CR. the hobgoblin not so much.
Doesn't the elite array add +1 CR?
I dunno about overpowered, but I see them as being about as dangerous as hobgoblins, goblins, and kobolds (the goblins and kobolds being the most dangerous out of the lot in most cases, since they can happily mob you with a high AC and splash weapons at low levels).
I ran a dungeon recently that had "orc berserkers" which were effectively naked orc warriors who were built with 3 point buy. Their mental stats were hosed, their physical stats were smeared with gravy, and they ran around in a loin cloth wielding clubs (0 gp speant on NPC gear so CR-1).
Their final CR was CR 1/4, but the result was a beast that took about 26 points of combined damage to put down and hit like a loaded cannon. The funny part is that my party mopped the floor with them. Literally taking them out in groups of 4-8 at about 2nd level or so. Stuff like sleep and colorspray made short work of them, and in many cases the party members just tried to keep their distance.
They were pretty mean though. However, humorously the party never took more than one character falling into negatives after 2-3 encounters with groups of them in the orc fortress. Meanwhile, I ran another game with some kobolds, and the kobolds wiped the floor with the party, who barely managed to crawl their way back out of the dungeon (they got maybe about 100 ft into the dungeon) with about 4/6 players unconscious and the other two seriously wounded.
Honestly I just see Ferocity as something that makes orcs legitimately frightening. It's their special stick, kind of like how goblins have good speed + dexterity + stealth so they ambush people, orcs just take stupid amounts of punishment, so you have to focus-fire them down or incap them or they will kill you.
On a side note, Half-orc ferocity sucks so badly I house ruled it to match Orc Ferocity, which makes it more appealing.
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On a side note, Half-orc ferocity sucks so badly I house ruled it to match Orc Ferocity, which makes it more appealing.
Tangent: How has this been working out for half-orc players in your games, as far as balance goes?
Been banging out a PC-friendly version of the orc, ditched light sensitivity and changed the stats to the +2,+2,-2 standard, but Ferocity I've been going back and forth on. Love the flavor, but I just want to avoid it being open to abuse or overpowering the other choices(mainly half-orcs).
On a side note, Half-orc ferocity sucks so badly I house ruled it to match Orc Ferocity, which makes it more appealing.Tangent: How has this been working out for half-orc players in your games, as far as balance goes?
Been banging out a PC-friendly version of the orc, ditched light sensitivity and changed the stats to the +2,+2,-2 standard, but Ferocity I've been going back and forth on. Love the flavor, but I just want to avoid it being open to abuse or overpowering the other choices(mainly half-orcs).
Balance wise it's not an issue. It's basically like having the Diehard feat. That's pretty much it. You might as well say orcs and half-orcs get Diehard as a bonus racial feat, but "Ferocity" is faster to say. :P
Yes, the elite array adds a CR.
Also, taking the fighter level adds a CR. Not together though, so a PC class add is better 'economically' for power-GMing.
You don't look at "Level -1" for CR change, that's like adding the CR of a 'creature' you are adding to the base 'creature'.
You start at CR 1 Gnoll and add a relevant class level (+1). With the elite array as bonus.
If you added an NPC Warrior level, then the CR change would be zero or one (depending on if you round up or down.) Arguably rounding down is cheesy (as you can shift to boost its strength to 17 and buy it good AC/better THW) when you could just take 2 Warrior levels (CR 2) for smoothness...and get another stat point in Str for 18, +6 Dam., THW :)
The Bestiary CR 1 Gnoll is barely CR 1 (though do note you're missing out on PA damage), but that (readjusted to) CR 2 Gnoll/F1 is CR 2.
The CR system is a rule-of-thumb system that can be abused/misused (and which is why I really like the appendix in the Bestiary on changing CRs)
The CR 2 Bugbear has the same flaws/strengths. If given it's due, CR 1, it'd work fine. But when you tag on PC levels (with elite array bonus), them Bugbears be good at fightin' (and sneakin').
(Similarly, Ogres & Ettins were both given a CR+1 boost in the change from 3.0-3.5, maybe because of this.)
As for the Orc, use cautiously. They're the number 1 reason for ranged weapons/Sleep/Color Spray/reach. Thrown about haphazardly, they'll wipe out PCs. (Partial Charge! Partial Charge!)
Oh, and a Thrush is CR 1/3... (Just throwing that in there.)
Good enough for me! :)
On a side note, if you ever want to see your players go "O.o", give the diehard feat to some NPCs.
I once ran a game where a group of summoners (as in the class) and their eidolons all had the diehard feat and methods for healing, and the eidolons had damage reduction. It was a hoot. :P
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Orc:
1 HD
Skills Intimidate +2
Ranged javelin +1 (1d6+3)
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will –1
Gnoll:
2 HD
Skills Perception +2
Ranged spear +1 (1d8+2/×3)
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +0
So the gnoll has a better chance to spot your friend trying to approach unnoticed, a slightly better chance to resist your sleep spell and only 2 of them can be put to sleep by it against 4 orcs. He has the same ranged attack.
By day the orc has a further -1 to his to hit and perception.
You shouldn't compare only the damage dealing capabilities but the full package.
You shouldn't compare only the damage dealing capabilities but the full package.
Gnoll:
2 HDAC 15
Melee spear +3 (1d8+3/×3)
Ranged spear +1 (1d8+2/×3)
Skills Perception +2
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +0
Small Earth Elemental:
2 HD
AC 17
Melee slam +6 (1d4+4)
Skills: Appraise +1, Climb +7, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +1, Knowledge (planes) +1, Perception +4, Stealth +7
Saves: Fort +4, Ref -1, Will +3
Immune to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, stunning, critical hits, flanking, and precision damage.
Can Earth Glide into melee range
Gets additional +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its foe are touching the ground.
By your whole package analysis, is the gnoll really the same CR 1 as the small earth elemental? One lower average melee damage (even if you're both on ground), except the elemental hits more often. Elemental notices sneakers more often. Elemental is absolutely immune to sleep. Elemental can sneak up underground to completely avoid the ranged attack efforts.
I think the Elementals are all underrated, but the Gnoll doesn't match up with many other CR 1 critters either. A 2nd level PC class 'monster' (CR 1) would be better by default, even made by a new GM.
As for Elems, it's hard to find (or build) anything for CR 11 that compares to an Elder Elemental. So many immunities topped with DR 10/- means you'd better be ready to Banish it. A change in their CR was one of my few wishes for monster changes in PF.
I think the Elementals are all underrated, but the Gnoll doesn't match up with many other CR 1 critters either. A 2nd level PC class 'monster' (CR 1) would be better by default, even made by a new GM.
As for Elems, it's hard to find (or build) anything for CR 11 that compares to an Elder Elemental. So many immunities topped with DR 10/- means you'd better be ready to Banish it. A change in their CR was one of my few wishes for monster changes in PF.
well, outsiders in general, as well as dragons should have thier CRs increased. and the gnoll should have thiers decreased.
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In my humble opinion, gnolls should probably be CR 1/2. 2 humanoid HD does not a CR 1 warrant alone. They're not even unbalanced as far as their ability scores go (+4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, and -2 Cha = Net +2) and their racial features are nothing to write home about (+1 natural armor and darkvision 60ft, woo).
That being said, gnolls can make generic decent opponents depending on their equipment. Longspears and slings both take advantage of their impressive strength.
But yeah, gnoll is definitely underpowered. Likewise, wolves are pretty underpowered too, at CR 1. Otherwise, no real complaints here.
OriginalAragorn - You are correct NPC classes do not get max hp, or the same point buy.
"Aren't they overpowered for CR 1 / 3?"
Yes. But the fix is fairly simple:
Change Ferocity to Orc Ferocity (from the half-orc race in the core rules.)
Change falchion to long sword and shield.
But those two changes should put orc back between hobgoblin and gnoll where they belong.
Changing Ferocity to the half-orc ferocity just means that now orcs are probably underpowered for CR 1/3, 'cause all they get is crappy stats ('cept strength), darkvision, and light sensitivity. Solves nothing. Likewise, swapping their equipment solves nothing unless you assume all orcs have to use the same equipment which is metagaming and pretty dumb.
Also, non-PC-classed NPCs use 3 point buy. It's noted in the getting started section under ability generation, and is also the value of the point buy for the generic arrays as well.
What would be better would be just reduce the gnolls to CR 1/2, or remove their racial HD and let them be CR 1/3 warriors like everyone else. Consider giving them scent as well, since they have hyena-heads and noses.
For the Elemental, the reason they have a low CR is likely because they are vulnerable to a small number of spells that affect only outsiders but really kick their butts.
As for Dragons, their CR is purposely low b/c the dev's assume that a Dragon is a capstone or boss type monster and expect players to expend more resources fighting a Dragon than another monster of the same CR.