I find that the Magus and Eldritch knight are beginning to look a little boring on paper. The main problem for me is the spell critical thing, which kind of forces you to wield weapons with 18-20 crits. The issue with this is that so few weapons fall into this category, so essentially every EK will wield a scimitar/rapier or waste a feat on exotic proficiency to wield something like a Rhoka with the same crit chance.
Also I feel like the EK can use a little boost somewhere, maybe getting the arcane armor training/mastery feats for free as part of the class progression. What do you think?
I find that the Magus and Eldritch knight are beginning to look a little boring on paper. The main problem for me is the spell critical thing, which kind of forces you to wield weapons with 18-20 crits. The issue with this is that so few weapons fall into this category, so essentially every EK will wield a scimitar/rapier or waste a feat on exotic proficiency to wield something like a Rhoka with the same crit chance.
Also I feel like the EK can use a little boost somewhere, maybe getting the arcane armor training/mastery feats for free as part of the class progression. What do you think?
Guess what ranged rangers only use the statistically highest bow. Guess what, 2H melee players only use weapons that roll 2d6 or have high crit. Guess what unarmed monks only use their fists. What's your point?
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I agree.
I think as written, the Magus has fallen into a trap of being a scimitar user as 'far too good not to take', especially with the Inner Sea Dervish Dance feat. It limits variety within the class considerably and reduces a base class to all resembling each other. Which isn't healthy, I think.
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So? It's OGL... tinker with it. What weapons would you like to see viable for them? Maybe build different styles/archetypes based around similar type weapons?
I do agree that the EK could have just a touch more class abilities (even if it's just bonus magic related feats), but just because a certain weapon seems like the obvious or only choice doesn't mean you have to choose it. I made a build using the EK that focuses on unarmed strikes. That makes Spell Critical mostly useless, but I don't care because that's the flavor I chose for that character. Also, look at the Staff Magus. Paizo made an entire archetype that avoids using a high crit weapon. Why would they do that if you are supposedly "forced" to use a high crit weapon?
I do agree that the EK could have just a touch more class abilities (even if it's just bonus magic related feats), but just because a certain weapon seems like the obvious or only choice doesn't mean you have to choose it. I made a build using the EK that focuses on unarmed strikes. That makes Spell Critical mostly useless, but I don't care because that's the flavor I chose for that character. Also, look at the Staff Magus. Paizo made an entire archetype that avoids using a high crit weapon. Why would they do that if you are supposedly "forced" to use a high crit weapon?
Agreed. The standard magus has 3 bonus feats, three levels of armor proficiency, and plenty of magus arcana slots. Like the staff magus, it is possible to build archetypes that trade out several of these abilities for weapon combat styles, like the monk styles in Unarmed Combat, or the combat styles from 3.5 Complete Warrior (flavor-wise anyway, not so much mechanics-wise). It even makes sense for an individual magus to perfect a style with a single or very limited numbers weapon; they don't have the feats and other mechanics to learn multiple styles like a fighter would.
The hard part will be making them viable choices and flavorfully distinctive, yet still balanced against the other magus archetypes.
Besides, they're the same guy. Just look at the pictures.
Besides, they're the same guy. Just look at the pictures.
I just noticed that a few days ago. I saw the pic in the CRB and it totally threw me off. I was like what is he doing here?
I find that the Magus and Eldritch knight are beginning to look a little boring on paper. The main problem for me is the spell critical thing, which kind of forces you to wield weapons with 18-20 crits. The issue with this is that so few weapons fall into this category, so essentially every EK will wield a scimitar/rapier or waste a feat on exotic proficiency to wield something like a Rhoka with the same crit chance.
Also I feel like the EK can use a little boost somewhere, maybe getting the arcane armor training/mastery feats for free as part of the class progression. What do you think?
I imagine that cookie cutter scimitar magi are more common in high-op games. Haven't seen anyone play a magus, but that's my guess.
As far as the EK, I only have my own experience (currently running a Wiz4/Ftr1) but the ability to change spells is akin to playing a new archetype every day.
Getting AAT/M when you hit EK level would be way too late. I opted for the armor route from 1st level. I'd prefer the feats themselves to be tweaked so they don't conflict with the capstone (make 'em free actions instead of swift, that kind of thing).
I'm pretty happy with my transmuter/fighter/EK archer. Overland Flight + GMW + other spells: mobile gunnery turrent.
I consider this to be a problem with PF as created by the devs, focus is too much on high crit weapons, not just for magus, I very much dislike being pushed towards using a falchion to use the critical feats while great axe is hardly a viable choice, shifting the balance even further to weapons with a broad crit range.
I find that the Magus and Eldritch knight are beginning to look a little boring on paper.
No way. They're all the fun of fighters plus all the fun of a blaster wizard plus all the fun of doing both at once. Magi are extra helpings of fun.
The main problem for me is the spell critical thing, which kind of forces you to wield weapons with 18-20 crits.
I must have overread that. Where does it say that you have to use such a weapon?
It doesn't. A regular long sword is just as fine. Not quite as many crits, but it's not that bad. It only really "strongly encourages" someone with a strong powergaming streak.
And it's the same for warrior classes. Falchions are hands-down better than greatswords. Two-handed weapon warriors who want to maximise their damage output will basically always go with the falchion. The 2 points of damage you lose on average are a small price to pay for the increased crit chance.
Also I feel like the EK can use a little boost somewhere, maybe getting the arcane armor training/mastery feats for free as part of the class progression. What do you think?
Actually, I think they're a lost cause. The magus came, killed the EK, took all his stuff and assumed his identity (the whole Seltyiel situation).
And the EK was suboptimal before the magus was along. It can be useful for a wizard who is mostly a wizard but will give up one spell level (lagging behind two levels worth of spells/day - or one if you join a guild and get the Eclectic Training benefit for 5 fame) to become less squishy.
The thing is that an eldritch knight will always be only one of two things (fighter or wizard) at a time. The armour mastery part will not really help with it. The best you can do is buff yourself with magic and then lay into enemies.
The magus will always be able to combine his two disciplines into a nice whole.
Well, with Improved Critical and Critical Focus, even non-max-crit weapons can still give you a decent chance of critting. Maybe not maximally, but enough so it's still worth it.
If it cuts into your style, though, maybe come up with an alternate class ability of your own? Could always submit it to something like Wayfinder (if they take submissions like that).
Maybe something where for a number of times per day equal to your Int modifier, as a full attack, you can attach an evocation spell to a single melee attack.
The eldritch knight does have something the magus does not... access to the full realms of wizardry. The EK is basically a wizard who wants to dip his toes in the martial realms without sacrificing the breadth of access to spells. To a major extent he's always wearing his robe and wizard hat, When he's not alternating between spells and melee in combat, he's doing any of the things that a wizard can do when he's off the field, summoning demons, communing with other planes, building castles with magic etc.
The other observation that I may make is that EK is problematic for a lot of people because they choose to build it from classes other than the two it was clearly designed for... fighter and wizard.
The magus on the other hand is the reincarnated warmage. Battle is pretty much what he's about. He's got some strategic spells for placement and battle control but his interest in magic only goes as far as to how it helps him win his next war.
the switch of Seltyiel from EK to Magus was mainly a strategic move to relect where Paizo's focus is at. They clearly prefer base classes to prestige, and the character was too high in appeal to relegate to the rear of the bus.
Actually I now see the EK as a heavily Magus oriented PrC
So to min max you only have one option. I don't see the issue really. Spell critical is such a high level ability for the EK and while it's cool I've never played a game where it actually came into play. So why bother maxing the critical range for something you might never get to play. The Magus gets it at 12th as once per day use through Magus Arcana. Once per doesn't seem worth it to demand a specific type of weapon with high crit range.
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My magus is strength based and uses a long sword and he kicks plenty of butt. There is no way to make all the options for a class statistically identical without making them identical. I think its fine as it is. Just because an option isnt the absolute best doesnt mean it isn't good.
What does the EK give the Magus that the latter doesn't already have? I see a major loss of class features from going the PrC route.
BAB +17, and therefore a 4th attack, unless I've missed something else.
As has been pointed out several times in this thread, there is an optimal build of every class in the game.
People and play-styles are what make a class fun, unique, and more than just a stat block.
My magus (kensai - light armor only) is currently the meat shield in our party. I'm doing extremely well at it to the surprise of the entire party and GM.
We are not min/maxed; people are playing characters for fun, and we see many non-optimal choices that people picked because they were fun rather than designed by someone in a guide to power.
If everyone uses the optimal guide to each class in your group - ultimately you are going to have a party of clones whose names change sometimes.
What does the EK give the Magus that the latter doesn't already have? I see a major loss of class features from going the PrC route.BAB +17, and therefore a 4th attack, unless I've missed something else.
Here is what you gain:
+2 BAB
1 Bonus Combat Feat
Spell Strike usable more than 1/day but delaying access till much higher (level 16 intead of 12).
Gain 3 class skill (Knowledge (nobility), Linguistics, Sense Motive)
Here is what you lose:
1 Caster level
1 Spell casting Level
Arcane pool 5 + Int instead 10 + Int
+3 Weapon Enhancement instead of +5
3 Magus Arcanna
Improved Spell Recall
Ability to cast in Heavy armor
Greater Spell Combat
Counter Strike
Greater Spell Access
True magus
Lose 2 off you Will saves
I don't see the trade off as worth it.
I don't see the trade off as worth it.
Well, if you're just looking at level 20 though, we can go 16 Magus/EK 4 and have a BAB of 16. Then you're losing significantly less for that 4th attack.
Now, I wouldn't do this: I like Greater Spell Access as a thought waaaay too much.
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Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 10:
BAB +13
Average (unmodified) Hit Points 82-83
Casts as a level 14 Wizard (level 7 spells)
Magus 16:
BAB +12
Average (unmodified) Hit Points 75-76
Casts as a level 16 Magus (level 6 spells)
... from the standpoint of the basics, a 'vanilla' Eldritch Knight kicks the Magus's bottom all day long... but that's okay, because being good at 'the basics' is the ElK's main Class Feature. He's a better caster and a better fighter than the Magus... but he's not a better Magus than the Magus. The ElK can't fight and cast at the same time, and doesn't get all the Magus's nifty fun Class Features. This is a good thing - if the classes were identical there'd be no point to having both. They're not the same, and they're not meant to be the same.
People often poo-poo the ElK as being boring, because raw BAB, Hit Points, and casting power just aren't as 'cool' as weird and wonderful class features. Those that suggest the Magus has killed the ElK were probably looking for a Magus type of character in the first place, not what the ElK is. It's horses for courses really, IMHO.
As for the 'high crit range only' weapons concept, I agree with those who've suggested that such a concept is probably the spawn of messageboard number-crunching, rather than actual play. I seriously doubt that everyone who crunches numbers on the boards actually plays the characters those numbers spit out - some may, but I'd like to think that most people just play the characters they want to play, with no more than half an eye on the numbers at most.
With the Magus, UC has given a bunch of new archetypes, and UM itself had staff-magi and knife-magi. Unless Spellstrike-based criticals are the be-all and end-all of your Magus concept, there are plenty of other options. Whip-magi are especially useful, and flail-magi (or other maneuver-plus weapons - lots of new options in UC there) are great if you take the arcana which boosts your CMB with certain maneuvers. Some like a mounted lance-based Magus too.
You can trade four levels of magus for four of EK in order to get +1 to BAB. So:
Magus 7/EK 4 vs. Magus 11:
EK gets +1 BAB in exchange for 2 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 2 points of Will save, Improved Spell Combat, a Magus Arcana, 1 effective level of fighter for feat qualification, and Improved Spell Recall.
Magus 8/EK 4 vs. Magus 12:
EK gets +1 BAB in exchange for 2 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, 1 point of Reflex save, 2 Magus Arcanas, 2 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification, and Improved Spell Recall.
Magus 9/EK 4 versus Magus 13:
EK gets +1 BAB in exchange for 2 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 2 points of Will save, 2 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification, Improved Spell Recall, a magus arcana, and the ability to freely cast in heavy armor.
Magus 10/EK 4 versus Magus 14:
EK gets +1 BAB, 1 iterative attack, and 2 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification in exchange for 2 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, Improved Spell Recall, a magus arcana, the ability to freely cast in heavy armor, and Greater Spell Combat.
Magus 11/EK 4 versus Magus 15:
EK gets +1 BAB, 2 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification, and one bonus feat in exchange for 2 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, 1 point of Reflex save, 2 magus arcanas, the ability to freely cast in heavy armor, and Greater Spell Combat.
Magus 12/EK 4 versus Magus 16:
EK gets +1 BAB, 2 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification, and one bonus feat in exchange for 2 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 2 points of Will save, the ability to freely cast in heavy armor, Greater Spell Combat, 1 magus arcana, and counterstrike.
Magus 13/EK 4 versus Magus 17:
EK gets +1 BAB and 2 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification, in exchange for 2 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, Greater Spell Combat, 1 magus arcana, and counterstrike.
Magus 14/EK 4 versus Magus 18:
EK gets +1 BAB and 2 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification, in exchange for 2 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, 1 point of Reflex save, 2 magus arcanas, and counterstrike.
Magus 15/EK 4 versus Magus 19:
EK gets +1 BAB and 2 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification, in exchange for 2 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, counterstrike, 1 magus arcana, and greater spell access.
Magus 16/EK 4 versus Magus 20:
EK gets +1 BAB, 1 iterative attack, and 2 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification, in exchange for 2 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, 1 magus arcana, greater spell access, and the true magus floating +2 bonus.
You can also take the 8 levels of EK to bring yourself to +2 BAB over the straight magus:
Magus 7/EK 8 versus Magus 15:
EK gets +2 BAB, one bonus feat, and 1 effective level of fighter for feat qualification, in exchange for 4 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, improved spell combat, 3 magus arcanas, improved spell recall, the ability to freely cast in heavy armor, and Greater Spell Combat.
Magus 8/EK 8 versus Magus 16:
EK gets +2 BAB, one bonus feat, and 1 effective level of fighter for feat qualification, in exchange for 4 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, 3 magus arcanas, improved spell recall, the ability to freely cast in heavy armor, greater spell combat, and counterstrike.
Magus 9/EK 8 versus Magus 17:
EK gets +2 BAB, 1 effective level of fighter for feat qualification, and +1 Reflex save in exchange for 4 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, 2 magus arcanas, improved spell recall, the ability to freely cast in heavy armor, greater spell combat, and counterstrike.
Magus 10/EK 8 versus Magus 18:
EK gets +2 BAB and 4 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification in exchange for 4 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, 3 magus arcanas, improved spell recall, the ability to freely cast in heavy armor, greater spell combat, and counterstrike.
Magus 11/EK 8 versus Magus 19:
EK gets +2 BAB, 1 iterative attack, 1 bonus feat, and 4 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification in exchange for 4 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, 3 magus arcanas, the ability to freely cast in heavy armor, greater spell combat, counterstrike, and greater spell access.
Magus 12/EK 8 versus Magus 20:
EK gets +2 BAB, 1 iterative attack, 1 bonus feat, +1 Reflex save, and 4 effective levels of fighter for feat qualification in exchange for 4 arcane pool points, 1 level of spellcasting progression, 1 point of Will save, 2 magus arcanas, the ability to freely cast in heavy armor, greater spell combat, counterstrike, greater spell access, and the true magus floating +2 bonus.
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Actually, when you have some ability that triggers on a crit it becomes really blindingly obvious that more crits become better than harder crits and if that ability is good, such as doubling spell damage as a magus or staggering your victim or getting a free combat maneuver, it's better than having slightly higher base damage as well. The only critical triggered ability that isn't obviously worth it is the EK capstone, which is only weak because it loses the potential damage from arcane strike.
Well sure, it's blinding obvious that more=better in all aspects of the game. What's your point? That the single thing the Magus class has going for it is doing criticals with Spellstrike? I believe I mentioned that it's only if you focus on that and nothing else, that you start to feel compelled to take the high crit-range weapons only. My argument is that the Magus has other stuff going for it as well, and that not everybody will focus completely on that single Class Feature. YMMV, of course.
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Actually, we have something much worse right now: there's almost nothing rewarding players for picking up the 2-dot crit weapons, and way too many things cheering for the 3-dot crit weapons. The magus makes the problem obvious- there's whole things that are buffed by 50% when he picks up a scimitar- but a glance at the "critical hit an enemy and they are sooooo screwed" chain that is commonly snarfed up shows that broad-crit weapons have taken over, and that critting 50% more often is a ludicrous advantage (and often, critting 50% harder is a pretty nice thing too, but that one isn't rewarded as much).
So, kukri, scimitar, falchion, and now katana are clearly the ways to attack in most cases (rapiers can party too). Longswords are for suckas.
The game DOES try to address this with the Vital Strike series of feats, but at the end of the day, "you crit 50% harder" is always gonna rule compared to "you do an extra +1 point of damage", even if you can buff that to +4 by late levels.
2-dot and 3-dot???
Are you referring to X2 and X3 critical multiplier weapons? I've never heard of or seen the terms 2-dot and 3-dot before ...