...we're curious to see what the current zeitgeist is. Website cultures evolve over time. We don't have a flag for "off-topic", and not a huge history of removing posts for going off topic outside of product discussion and customer service threads. (We do move threads that go seriously off-topic into the off-topic forum.)
We might start moderating our boards someday for on-topic behavior as opposed to straight-up jerk watching, but keep in mind that everybody who does moderation here has a full-time job doing something else for Paizo—it's nobody's full-time job, and I'm cautious about committing us to monitoring several thousand posts a day for being on or off topic.
I see a lot of ideas nixed.
I see a Paizo culture that is totally transformed from the Dungeon and Dragon days.
We all know that not only website cultures, but also websites themselves evolve over time.
We all know that the boards here are a part of Paizo's success, part of Paizo's marketing and PR.
A business needs a clear plan for evolving it's marketing and PR.
Am I mistaken to think that "We might start moderating our boards someday for on-topic behavior as opposed to straight-up jerk watching" is a good summary of Paizo's plan for the future?
This does not seem to me to be a clear plan.
A lot of questions come to mind:
How bad do things need to get?
How is Paizo going to decide what's on topic and what's off? (seems they don't want us deciding)
If subjects are made taboo, how are we going to extricate ourselves from topics that are inextricable from our lives, personalities, and experiences?
And so many more....
As a concerned member of the community; as someone with a sense of investment in the community; as someone who likes to come here to play; and as someone who likes to just come here and talk about stuff--I would really like to know.
Chief Technical Officer
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You've been around here long enough to know that we consider things before we act; and where it makes sense, we seek input from our community when we're considering major changes.
We're not considering major changes right now, so we don't have a specific plan, other than "maintain business as usual until it appears that that's no longer the right thing to do."
You've been around here long enough to know that we consider things before we act...
Here's a coupon for a home made cookie Vic. I'll pay it next year at Paizocon. In 3 days I move back home--will be living on Salt Spring Island and only a ferry ride away from Seattle.
Yah I know you guys consider stuff. I never meant to imply that you didn't in case you interpret something I've said in that way. Sorry for dissing you guys on the ignore thread, but that's how some folks see the Paizo's approach and you need to hear it. If you saw my smiling face and heard my tone of voice it wouldn't have come across so prickly.
Also, clearly you have completely different ideas of what "major changes" constitute. But I'll leave that. I'll also leave some other stuff that just doesn't make sense to me. Could just be me after all.
From your answer, in the second block of text, is it safe for me to assume that things have to hit "rock bottom"? And that you are going to decide what "rock bottom" is when you start to smell it in the "zeitgeist"? And I'm actually quoting another Paizo board member here with the term rock bottom--he just didn't say it here on the boards--and I use it myself because it fits with what I'm looking at here.
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Y'know, I've been bumming around these boards for a few years now and I used to keep tabs on the drama even though I generally didn't get involved. About a year ago, I turned off the "Off-Topic" forum and that probably cut out about 80-90% of the board drama. I don't miss it and being drama free makes up for whatever discussions I miss in there.
-Skeld
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+1 Skeld.
If you spend 90% of your time on the subforum that generates 90% of drama, well, your choice.
Also, like I said in the Ignore thread, grow a pair.
I'm here for 4 years and I don't think anything has changed much. I believe that Paizo's moderation policy is very liberal (compared to, say, Enworld) and i LIKE it because it means somebody can have a bad day and the worst that will happen is that few of his posts get deleted and Liz sends him/her a cute "please play nice" e-mail, unlike some other fora where you would be looking at a permaban. Been there, done that, got the cute email.
Except perhaps the OTD forums, but I don't read those - American politics are about as exciting as American beer.
....as exciting as American beer.
Hey, come on now! Not all American beer is boring. You've got a lot of interesting craftbrewers out there: Abita, Stoudt's, Anchor, Flying Fish, Harpoon, Magic Hat, Rogue, Ommegang, Saranc, Troegs, Victory, Shiner, Dogfish Head, Yards, Stone, Sierra Nevada, just to name a few.
Mmmmm......beer.
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....as exciting as American beer.Hey, come on now! Not all American beer is boring. You've got a lot of interesting craftbrewers out there: Abita, Stoudt's, Anchor, Flying Fish, Harpoon, Magic Hat, Rogue, Ommegang, Saranc, Troegs, Victory, Shiner, Dogfish Head, Yards, Stone, Sierra Nevada, just to name a few.
Mmmmm......beer.
Unfortunately, none of that makes it over The Pond, and your powers that be continue to attempt to flood us with "Budweiser", which not only is pretty much like making love in a canoe (read: frakking close to water), but also blatantly attempted to legally enforce shutting down the original, one and only, true to the core, Czech Budweiser.
Unfortunately, none of that makes it over The Pond, and your powers that be continue to attempt to flood us with "Budweiser", which not only is pretty much like making love in a canoe (read: frakking close to water), but also blatantly attempted to legally enforce shutting down the original, one and only, true to the core, Czech Budweiser.
Unfortunately? The other beers actually taste like something?
Hmmm... Budvar Pilsener... though i like Staropramen better...;)PS: didn´t they loose the law-suit and had to rename their coloured water?
PPS: On Topic: Learn to ignore things by yourself, helps your sanity and serenity...hmmm...Serenity...
Unfortunately, none of that makes it over The Pond....
That's very sad. Oh well, more for me!
On the other hand, we get a good selection of European imports. Almost makes me think I should be doing a "nyah nyah nyah"....
....as exciting as American beer.Hey, come on now! Not all American beer is boring. You've got a lot of interesting craftbrewers out there: Abita, Stoudt's, Anchor, Flying Fish, Harpoon, Magic Hat, Rogue, Ommegang, Saranc, Troegs, Victory, Shiner, Dogfish Head, Yards, Stone, Sierra Nevada, just to name a few.
Mmmmm......beer.
Unfortunately, none of that makes it over The Pond, and your powers that be continue to attempt to flood us with "Budweiser", which not only is pretty much like making love in a canoe (read: frakking close to water), but also blatantly attempted to legally enforce shutting down the original, one and only, true to the core, Czech Budweiser.
Ommegang makes Belgian ales that are imported to Belgium. Most of the other ones don't even have distribution throughout the US.
On the other hand, we get a good selection of European imports. Almost makes me think I should be doing a "nyah nyah nyah"....
Just don't drink any of that Zywiec stuff. Tastes like it went through a pig's kidneys first before they bottled it =P
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On the other hand, we get a good selection of European imports. Almost makes me think I should be doing a "nyah nyah nyah"....Just don't drink any of that Zywiec stuff. Tastes like it went through a pig's kidneys first before they bottled it =P
It bothers me that you would know what something tastes like after it has been circulated through a pig's kidneys. :)
Almost makes me think I should be doing a "nyah nyah nyah"....
Cultural difference or obscure reference ? Don´t get that one. Mind telling?
It bothers me that you would know what something tastes like after it has been circulated through a pig's kidneys. :)On the other hand, we get a good selection of European imports. Almost makes me think I should be doing a "nyah nyah nyah"....Just don't drink any of that Zywiec stuff. Tastes like it went through a pig's kidneys first before they bottled it =P
I am evil, you know ;)
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You've been around here long enough to know that we consider things before we act; and where it makes sense, we seek input from our community when we're considering major changes.
We're not considering major changes right now, so we don't have a specific plan, other than "maintain business as usual until it appears that that's no longer the right thing to do."
Not to poke at the current policy, but can you maybe hint at Paizo's plans when the Basic Box drops?
I've got 11 yro and 9 yro nephews that I'm considering the Basic Set as a Christmas present, and I'm a bit concerned about them wandering into some of the more "spirited" discussion areas and more mature PbP sections. Right now there isn't an Internet filter package smart enough to keep them out of only certain areas of Paizo. Any chances on a kids-only site/section for Basic players? I can lock down their PC pretty tight and keep them off Paizo entirely -- and they are smart enough to go to mom & dad when they run across stuff they aren't supposed to see -- but the ability to interact with other Basic players their age and interests would be a big plus.
Thanks :)
Y'know, I've been bumming around these boards for a few years now and I used to keep tabs on the drama even though I generally didn't get involved. About a year ago, I turned off the "Off-Topic" forum and that probably cut out about 80-90% of the board drama. I don't miss it and being drama free makes up for whatever discussions I miss in there.
I have to admit that I'm confused by what the original poster is even talking about, but then again I've had the Off-Topic forum turned off ever since I joined (mostly because it clutters up the list of recently updated thread in the sidebar).
You people and your talk of beer make me sad (and envious).
Augh, AZ talks about great beers all the time, and even brews his own (excellent). If I every plunder his house for loot, I'm not sure if I'll steal the beer or the RPG stuff first. :)
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Chief Technical Officer
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Not to poke at the current policy, but can you maybe hint at Paizo's plans when the Basic Box drops?
I've got 11 yro and 9 yro nephews that I'm considering the Basic Set as a Christmas present, and I'm a bit concerned about them wandering into some of the more "spirited" discussion areas and more mature PbP sections. Right now there isn't an Internet filter package smart enough to keep them out of only certain areas of Paizo. Any chances on a kids-only site/section for Basic players? I can lock down their PC pretty tight and keep them off Paizo entirely -- and they are smart enough to go to mom & dad when they run across stuff they aren't supposed to see -- but the ability to interact with other Basic players their age and interests would be a big plus.
Thanks :)
Creating a kids-only section of the boards would actually invoke a whole bunch of laws that we can safely ignore right now. Among other things, it would force us to apply different labeling standards to all 25,000 products we carry in the store, and we just don't have the resources to do that. It would also require us to implement a whole parental approval infrastructure that a site with an adult target audience doesn't need, and it would throughly complicate our plans for private messaging and other such features. So I'm afraid it's not in the cards.
We will have a specific discussion area for Beginner Box players, but we're not going to be positioning it any differently with respect to age.
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I have to admit that I'm confused by what the original poster is even talking about, but then again I've had the Off-Topic forum turned off ever since I joined (mostly because it clutters up the list of recently updated thread in the sidebar).
It also helps to turn off the Word Games and PBP forums.
-Skeld
I have to admit that I'm confused by what the original poster is even talking about, but then again I've had the Off-Topic forum turned off ever since I joined (mostly because it clutters up the list of recently updated thread in the sidebar).It also helps to turn off the Word Games and PBP forums.
I keep the PbP forum open because I play in a bunch of PbPs. :-)
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On the other hand, we get a good selection of European imports. Almost makes me think I should be doing a "nyah nyah nyah"....Just don't drink any of that Zywiec stuff. Tastes like it went through a pig's kidneys first before they bottled it =P
Zywiec isn't bad, but I'm so bored of it (like any other "mainstream" beer) that I even don't bother anymore.
Also, I'm a big fan of porter beers, which are hopelessly rare as majority of Poles pursue pils and lager. Still, there are a few mighty good porters around here and if you're really lucky, you might find a pub that serves one out of a keg.
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...Long story short, kids shouldn't be surfing the internet without a responsible adult to sit with them and say, "Ah, you shouldn't be reading that..."
-Skeld
Skeld - You can't watch your kids (or nieces and nephews) 100% of the time on the Internet. You do your best to configure the browser, hosts file, etc. to restrict most of it, and teach them to come to you when something inappropriate slips through a chink. I wasn't expecting Paizo to keep them in an impervious bubble, just wondering how they planned to proceed so I could take the appropriate measures on this side.
Thanks, Vic, for the specific answer. :)
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You people and your talk of beer make me sad (and envious).Augh, AZ talks about great beers all the time, and even brews his own (excellent). If I every plunder his house for loot, I'm not sure if I'll steal the beer or the RPG stuff first. :)
You'll find that I keep both protected by potent guardians and lethal traps.
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What I found worrying was when you guys are at GenCon, there are few people available to explain or correct perceptions and answer questions about your latest releases.
The nerd rage and trashing of UC got to the point, where I could no longer read any of the threads. I became very worried about purchasing the product (unwarranted worry). The only Paizo presence in these threads was one of your contributors ( Jason Nelson I think) who did his best to put out fires but my perception was that he was facing some very persistent and vitriolic product bashing.
What those threads needed (probably still need) is somebody with the Authoritas and Gravitas of James or Jason to pop in and do some calming of the boiling nerd rage.
I am all for constructive criticism of Paizo's products and there are rules that my group disagree with (we change them to suit or game) and I am very interested to see how or what rules people don't think work and their work arounds what I don't care for is the tone of some of the criticism (and the tone of some of the defence).
I can only suggest that on the release of major products when you have a skeleton crew manning the ship that you dedicate a few more resources to answering questions about the product.
What is the sound of one hoof clapping?
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The nerd rage and trashing of UC got to the point, where I could no longer read any of the threads. I became very worried about purchasing the product (unwarranted worry). The only Paizo presence in these threads was one of your contributors ( Jason Nelson I think) who did his best to put out fires but my perception was that he was facing some very persistent and vitriolic product bashing.
This is a tangent of a bigger problem which I will start a thread on tomorrow.
Basically, is having 10+ desginers do one splatbook the right way to do it? I see that UM (to a greater) and UC (to a smaller) degree suffer from the "too many cooks spoil a book" syndrome.
Don't get me wrong, I think UC is a good book and UM is an OK book, but I can see several problems which the "shotgun design" approach brings. But that's for another thread. :)
...we're curious to see what the current zeitgeist is. Website cultures evolve over time. We don't have a flag for "off-topic", and not a huge history of removing posts for going off topic outside of product discussion and customer service threads. (We do move threads that go seriously off-topic into the off-topic forum.)
We might start moderating our boards someday for on-topic behavior as opposed to straight-up jerk watching, but keep in mind that everybody who does moderation here has a full-time job doing something else for Paizo—it's nobody's full-time job, and I'm cautious about committing us to monitoring several thousand posts a day for being on or off topic.
I see a lot of ideas nixed.
I see a Paizo culture that is totally transformed from the Dungeon and Dragon days.
We all know that not only website cultures, but also websites themselves evolve over time.
We all know that the boards here are a part of Paizo's success, part of Paizo's marketing and PR.
A business needs a clear plan for evolving it's marketing and PR.
Am I mistaken to think that "We might start moderating our boards someday for on-topic behavior as opposed to straight-up jerk watching" is a good summary of Paizo's plan for the future?
This does not seem to me to be a clear plan.
A lot of questions come to mind:
How bad do things need to get?
How is Paizo going to decide what's on topic and what's off? (seems they don't want us deciding)
If subjects are made taboo, how are we going to extricate ourselves from topics that are inextricable from our lives, personalities, and experiences?
And so many more....As a concerned member of the community; as someone with a sense of investment in the community; as someone who likes to come here to play; and as someone who likes to just come here and talk about stuff--I would really like to know.
No disrespect, but you are worrying about things that needn't be worried about.
No disrespect, but you are worrying about things that needn't be worried about.
You've been respectful as far as I can see. Never known you to be uncool, dude.
Believe me, I'm not worried about it. Just watching what's happening.
I've worries in RL, don't need any here.
So like before, same thing. This ain't frustration. I'll stop coming here before I ever feel frustrated. I ain't upset. It's just questions.
Hell (until now) I haven't even posted about the fact that moderators did nothing when Gorby debuted on this thread with a cliched personal insult.
I have to admit that I'm confused by what the original poster is even talking about, but then again I've had the Off-Topic forum turned off ever since I joined (mostly because it clutters up the list of recently updated thread in the sidebar).It also helps to turn off the Word Games and PBP forums.
-Skeld
You have a problem with PbPs???????????????
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You have a problem with PbPs???????????????I have to admit that I'm confused by what the original poster is even talking about, but then again I've had the Off-Topic forum turned off ever since I joined (mostly because it clutters up the list of recently updated thread in the sidebar).It also helps to turn off the Word Games and PBP forums.
-Skeld
I think, this was about the concerns about the 'more mature' PbP and how to keep children away from the contents, not about general problems with PbP.
You have a problem with PbPs???????????????I have to admit that I'm confused by what the original poster is even talking about, but then again I've had the Off-Topic forum turned off ever since I joined (mostly because it clutters up the list of recently updated thread in the sidebar).It also helps to turn off the Word Games and PBP forums.
-Skeld
No, he's saying they tend to swamp out other stuff in the sidebar.
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No, he's saying they tend to swamp out other stuff in the sidebar.You have a problem with PbPs???????????????I have to admit that I'm confused by what the original poster is even talking about, but then again I've had the Off-Topic forum turned off ever since I joined (mostly because it clutters up the list of recently updated thread in the sidebar).It also helps to turn off the Word Games and PBP forums.
-Skeld
Hogarth is correct. I don't participate in any and have no interest in them, so I don't want them clogging up my most recent posts.
-Skeld
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Senior Software Developer
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On the main messageboards page, there are triangles next to each forum. Click the triangle to collapse the forum and remove its most recent posts.
Having said that, play-by-posts have some characteristics that I find interesting, and we might do some things in the future to treat them differently from other messageboard threads.
What I found worrying was when you guys are at GenCon, there are few people available to explain or correct perceptions and answer questions about your latest releases.
The nerd rage and trashing of UC got to the point, where I could no longer read any of the threads. I became very worried about purchasing the product (unwarranted worry). The only Paizo presence in these threads was one of your contributors ( Jason Nelson I think) who did his best to put out fires but my perception was that he was facing some very persistent and vitriolic product bashing.
What those threads needed (probably still need) is somebody with the Authoritas and Gravitas of James or Jason to pop in and do some calming of the boiling nerd rage.
I am all for constructive criticism of Paizo's products and there are rules that my group disagree with (we change them to suit or game) and I am very interested to see how or what rules people don't think work and their work arounds what I don't care for is the tone of some of the criticism (and the tone of some of the defence).
I can only suggest that on the release of major products when you have a skeleton crew manning the ship that you dedicate a few more resources to answering questions about the product.
Nerdrage can get scary. It can provide great discussion, though it can quickly turn into something less productive.
This isn't to say, things should not be explained--I'm saying that past a point, these sorts of things feed on themselves and so explaining may quickly become problematic as well as repetative. Cons are a great time to shake hands, game together, and meet others.
Too, sometimes the best way to answer more detailed questions is in a medium such as a forum, or online, rather than in person.
And, it isn't often we get to meet the Paizo staff face-to-face or even gather and throw a few dice.
Someone worked up to a point may not see that, though. They're concerned via their own minds, over some important and (to them) justifiable things. The difference though, is all in how it's handled--either diplomatically, or hyperfocused and angry.
I think we can be nerds without raging. Unfortunately, we nerds have enough of a reputation for being antisocial, awkward, and unwashed as it is. Part of my own upset at some of the discussions is that it appears almost as though they're reinforcing a stereotype.