So I quite like Ultimate Combat's new monk archetype. The wisdom to hit is nice for a single attribute build (damage is a toughie, but elemental fist and the various elemental styles might help that later). It makes a very good 5th man character with his party buffing (and with the buff, a Sensei can almost keep up with the flurrying monk's full Bab, if not with the number of attacks).
But what other archetype can I mix it with? I don't mean rules wise, I'm more thinking optimization wise.
I have the following:
Monk of the four winds: Since I'm using elemental fist, might as well use it early and often (extra damage doesn't hurt)
Qinggong Monk: Goes with everything really, in fact this build can probably be Sensei, Qinggong Monk and something else. Heavy duty wis means lots of ki points.
Monk of the Lotus: Interesting choice, touch of serenity affects will and affects every monster in the beastiary. High DC from good wisdom and the ability to charm monsters later on.
Is anyone else working on a Sensei build?
prototype00
Qinggong seems to have the best synergy. Youg et tons of ki points packing in the wisdom. Plus the whole mystical aspect of it really works for a sensei.
Qinggong seems to have the best synergy. Youg et tons of ki points packing in the wisdom. Plus the whole mystical aspect of it really works for a sensei.
Qinggong can in fact stack with both Sensei and either Monk of the Lotus or Monk of the four winds (and certain others I'm sure). Would you take another archetype, t'were it up to you?
prototype00
Qinggong seems to have the best synergy. Youg et tons of ki points packing in the wisdom. Plus the whole mystical aspect of it really works for a sensei.Qinggong can in fact stack with both Sensei and either Monk of the Lotus or Monk of the four winds (and certain others I'm sure). Would you take another archetype, t'were it up to you?
prototype00
Hmm, for really prodigous amounts of ki points, this character can also take drunken master.
The problem with dropping so many class abilities from archetypes is that you can't give them up for unique qinggong abilities.
prototype00
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Hmm, for really prodigous amounts of ki points, this character can also take drunken master.prototype00
Did someone just call for a drunken sensei?
Did someone just call for a drunken sensei?
Hmm, for really prodigous amounts of ki points, this character can also take drunken master.prototype00
I was thinking more original Drunken Master ^_^
prototype00
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Did someone just call for a drunken sensei?
Hmm, for really prodigous amounts of ki points, this character can also take drunken master.prototype00
I was thinking more original Drunken Master ^_^
prototype00
Meanwhile I immediately thought of The Dragon of the West.
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When I think of drunken monks one of my pet peeves flashes immediately - it really bugs me that the regular monk can't be non-lawful and advance in levels. Sure, the vast majority may and should be lawful, but what's so bad in breaking the mold every now and then? Alignment restrictions pretty much only make sense if your mojo is coming from a (sentient, ideally) outside source like it does for divine casters.
BTW, has anyone tried using the Psychic Fist PrC from Psionics Unleashed ? It's on the Pathfinder SRD site and I think could work quite well here; high wistom helps its PP pool, and it stacks with quite a few monk abilities. It doesn't need a level in a psionic class if you get the ild talent feat, although a level or two of psychic warriors could help you qualify, as well as give you a few more powers and feats.
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ninja ninja ninja ninja ninja and um ninja... mystic wisdom works with ninja tricks :D~!!!!!
ninja with a monks belt can hit as hard as a 20th monk + invisibility and sneak attack 8 monk/12 ninja. OR you can give everyone else in the party invisibility if you go 12 monk/8 ninja but thats not all, any ability that requires a k1 point and activation can be given to all party members for 1 ki point. an awesome build that will make your damage go through the roof and give your monk group support functionality.
ninja ninja ninja ninja ninja and um ninja... mystic wisdom works with ninja tricks :D~!!!!!
ninja with a monks belt can hit as hard as a 20th monk + invisibility and sneak attack. THEN you can give everyone else in the party invisibility if you go 12 monk/8 ninja but thats not all, any ability that requires a k1 point and activation can be given to all party members for 1 ki point. an awesome build that will make your damage go through the roof and give your monk group support functionality.
Don't ninjas work with CHA for their ki?
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Don't ninjas work with CHA for their ki?ninja ninja ninja ninja ninja and um ninja... mystic wisdom works with ninja tricks :D~!!!!!
ninja with a monks belt can hit as hard as a 20th monk + invisibility and sneak attack. THEN you can give everyone else in the party invisibility if you go 12 monk/8 ninja but thats not all, any ability that requires a k1 point and activation can be given to all party members for 1 ki point. an awesome build that will make your damage go through the roof and give your monk group support functionality.
you get to choose cha or wis if your monk levels keep your ki pool.
you get to choose cha or wis if your monk levels keep your ki pool.Don't ninjas work with CHA for their ki?ninja ninja ninja ninja ninja and um ninja... mystic wisdom works with ninja tricks :D~!!!!!
ninja with a monks belt can hit as hard as a 20th monk + invisibility and sneak attack. THEN you can give everyone else in the party invisibility if you go 12 monk/8 ninja but thats not all, any ability that requires a k1 point and activation can be given to all party members for 1 ki point. an awesome build that will make your damage go through the roof and give your monk group support functionality.
I had a similar plan, 2 ninja (to grab vanishing trick) then sensei the rest of the way, pump wis to get more ki points. (Though those first two levels are going to suck with low-ish dex and low charisma)
prototype00
you get to choose cha or wis if your monk levels keep your ki pool.Don't ninjas work with CHA for their ki?ninja ninja ninja ninja ninja and um ninja... mystic wisdom works with ninja tricks :D~!!!!!
ninja with a monks belt can hit as hard as a 20th monk + invisibility and sneak attack. THEN you can give everyone else in the party invisibility if you go 12 monk/8 ninja but thats not all, any ability that requires a k1 point and activation can be given to all party members for 1 ki point. an awesome build that will make your damage go through the roof and give your monk group support functionality.
Not that i want to argue but how do you do that? I don't understand it.
you get to choose cha or wis if your monk levels keep your ki pool.Don't ninjas work with CHA for their ki?ninja ninja ninja ninja ninja and um ninja... mystic wisdom works with ninja tricks :D~!!!!!
ninja with a monks belt can hit as hard as a 20th monk + invisibility and sneak attack. THEN you can give everyone else in the party invisibility if you go 12 monk/8 ninja but thats not all, any ability that requires a k1 point and activation can be given to all party members for 1 ki point. an awesome build that will make your damage go through the roof and give your monk group support functionality.Not that i want to argue but how do you do that? I don't understand it.
From the SRD:
If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.
prototype00
@prototype00
Thank you.
I have missed that paragraph.
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you get to choose cha or wis if your monk levels keep your ki pool.Don't ninjas work with CHA for their ki?ninja ninja ninja ninja ninja and um ninja... mystic wisdom works with ninja tricks :D~!!!!!
ninja with a monks belt can hit as hard as a 20th monk + invisibility and sneak attack. THEN you can give everyone else in the party invisibility if you go 12 monk/8 ninja but thats not all, any ability that requires a k1 point and activation can be given to all party members for 1 ki point. an awesome build that will make your damage go through the roof and give your monk group support functionality.I had a similar plan, 2 ninja (to grab vanishing trick) then sensei the rest of the way, pump wis to get more ki points. (Though those first two levels are going to suck with low-ish dex and low charisma)
prototype00
my suggestion for level 1 would be stay at a range and ignore your cha completely. stat priority would be wis dex con (as usual) then once you hit level 2 monk you would be a beast. and i believe you can take monk first then dip into ninja. just a suggestion, that if you only go 2 ninja your bab will drop by one over all. go at least 4 if you're going to do it.i would suggest at least 8 so you can keep your 2d8 at 20 and still get vanish, mirror image, pressure points (always dex)and the rogue talent that knocks sneak attack to a 2-6 per die.
The rogue talent you mentioned (powerfull sneak irrc) isn't a methematically good one because you take a -2 to attacks in order to get the 2-6 die.
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The rogue talent you mentioned (powerfull sneak irrc) isn't a methematically good one because you take a -2 to attacks in order to get the 2-6 die.
invisibility counters the -2 so you will still hit more often then not. imo it would still be worth it because fodder troops ac wont matter, and you will save your ki based abilities for the big baddies at the end.
my build is ninja 12/ monk 8 giving me greater invisibility which would counter that -2 on a full attack. but i dont think the OP wanted to go that deep in ninja.
The rogue talent you mentioned (powerfull sneak irrc) isn't a methematically good one because you take a -2 to attacks in order to get the 2-6 die.invisibility counters the -2 so you will still hit more often then not. imo it would still be worth it because fodder troops ac wont matter, and you will save your ki based abilities for the big baddies at the end.
my build is ninja 12/ monk 8 giving me greater invisibility which would counter that -2 on a full attack. but i dont think the OP wanted to go that deep in ninja.
Wouldn't it be better if you get the +2 from the invisibility and you don't trade it for a 0.1666666 per sneak die increase in damage?
Seriously when you have 6 sneak attack die you get ~1 point increase in damage to that attack by taking a -2 to hit, does that sound like a good trade to you?|
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The rogue talent you mentioned (powerfull sneak irrc) isn't a methematically good one because you take a -2 to attacks in order to get the 2-6 die.invisibility counters the -2 so you will still hit more often then not. imo it would still be worth it because fodder troops ac wont matter, and you will save your ki based abilities for the big baddies at the end.
my build is ninja 12/ monk 8 giving me greater invisibility which would counter that -2 on a full attack. but i dont think the OP wanted to go that deep in ninja.
Wouldn't it be better if you get the +2 from the invisibility and you don't trade it for a 0.1666666 per sneak die increase in damage?
Seriously when you have 6 sneak attack die you get ~1 point increase in damage to that attack by taking a -2 to hit, does that sound like a good trade to you?
yes when you factor in the greater version, which you would drop greater invisibility. 3-6 damage per die, 6 die, 8 attacks = 48 die rolled in one full attack, (or maybe 7 attacks, im to tired to care about accuracy)= net gain of average damage=(3+3+3+4+5+6) x 8 =192 assuming all attacks hit, each sucessful hit knocks down its dex by 1 making each other hit more likely to succeed. and thats not counting weapon damage or magic.
oh and then poisons and wounding.
The rogue talent you mentioned (powerfull sneak irrc) isn't a methematically good one because you take a -2 to attacks in order to get the 2-6 die.invisibility counters the -2 so you will still hit more often then not. imo it would still be worth it because fodder troops ac wont matter, and you will save your ki based abilities for the big baddies at the end.
my build is ninja 12/ monk 8 giving me greater invisibility which would counter that -2 on a full attack. but i dont think the OP wanted to go that deep in ninja.
Wouldn't it be better if you get the +2 from the invisibility and you don't trade it for a 0.1666666 per sneak die increase in damage?
Seriously when you have 6 sneak attack die you get ~1 point increase in damage to that attack by taking a -2 to hit, does that sound like a good trade to you?yes when you factor in the greater version, which you would drop greater invisibility. 3-6 damage per die, 6 die, 8 attacks = 48 die rolled in one full attack, (or maybe 7 attacks, im to tired to care about accuracy)= net gain of minimum damage=(3+3+3+4+5+6) x 8 =192 assuming all attacks hit, each sucessful hit knocks down its dex by 1 making each other hit more likely to succeed. and thats not counting weapon damage or magic.
oh and then poisons and wounding.
I see that you also got the upgrade talent (deadly sneak iirc) which lets you treat the sneak die as a 3-6 die, well that gives you a 0.5 increase in damage per die, so in 6 dice you have an increase of 3 points in damage.
You have spent two talents (which are roughly feat-equilevent in power) in order to get a -2/+3 increase in damage when you have 6 sneak attack dice. I really can't see how this is a good trade-off.|
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assuming all attacks hit...Possibly a fatal flaw in any argument unless these supposed attacks are touch attacks.
may as well be, unless my target is a ninja, barbarian, or rogue invisibility will allow me to remove dex and a -2 to ac. then demolish the character even further by stacking -1's to dex making it a very viable build.
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may as well be, unless my target is a ninja, barbarian, or rogue invisibility will allow me to remove dex and a -2 to ac. then demolish the character even further by stacking -1's to dex making it a very viable build.
because 3x8 = 24 not just 3. so its worth while imo, but keep in mind my build is focused around the greater invisibility. the increased damage is different option then what my build was.
because 3x8 = 24 not just 3. so its worth while imo
may as well be, unless my target is a ninja, barbarian, or rogue invisibility will allow me to remove dex and a -2 to ac. then demolish the character even further by stacking -1's to dex making it a very viable build.
I am not sure if this post is directed at me or not (the quote really have me confused) but in case it is:
I was talking about the increase per attack and not during a full attack that's why i said the ratio is -2/+3 when you have both of those talents. Now power attack's (which is one feat not two) ratio is -1/+2 or -1/+3 per 4 BAB. Sure you can't expect every resource you expend for damage to get you the same result as power attack but i at least expect it to be as the old power attack which had (iirc) a -1/+1 or -1/+2 ratio.To summarize i simply see that you don't get enough outcome for the amounts of resources you spend*, those resources might be able to be spend more effectively for damage or just be spend to something else which weilds you better results in one other area.
IF it was one talent it might be worth it.
*especially if you take into consideration the fact that the ratio is -2/+3 when you have 6 sneak dice, meaning 11th level rogue.
im not willing to build and post the character to show you that it is fully functional. theory craft as much as you like dont really care.
It's not theory craft, at least it's not only theory craft, it's theory craft and math.
which is what theory crafting... is.im not willing to build and post the character to show you that it is fully functional. theory craft as much as you like dont really care.It's not theory craft, at least not only theory craft, it's theory craft and math.
Even if it is (let's not get into that conversation here) you haven't provided any proof for your claim(s).
Even in the example you provided several posts before, 8 attacks, 6 sneak dice, assuming all of your attacks hit (even with the -2), you gain a total of 24 points increase in total damage. You have spent two of your talents in order to get 24 points of damage in 8 succesful attacks.|
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which is what theory crafting... is.im not willing to build and post the character to show you that it is fully functional. theory craft as much as you like dont really care.It's not theory craft, at least not only theory craft, it's theory craft and math.Even if it is (let's not get into that conversation here) you haven't provided any proof for your claim(s).
Even in the example you provided several posts before, 8 attacks, 6 sneak dice, assuming all of your attacks hit (even with the -2), you gain a total of 24 points increase in total damage. You have spent two of your talents in order to get 24 points of damage in 8 succesful attacks.
we're not shopping for cars, a side by side comparison is inane. get you beastiary out and post a level x(cr) monster then i will post the build in question, then i will post 4 other characters, we will then do a mock combat and boil down the percentages of damage during that combat versus that cr monster. thats how we will se if the viability of those 2 feats are sound or not
(being facetious, i really dont care enough)
which is what theory crafting... is.im not willing to build and post the character to show you that it is fully functional. theory craft as much as you like dont really care.It's not theory craft, at least not only theory craft, it's theory craft and math.Even if it is (let's not get into that conversation here) you haven't provided any proof for your claim(s).
Even in the example you provided several posts before, 8 attacks, 6 sneak dice, assuming all of your attacks hit (even with the -2), you gain a total of 24 points increase in total damage. You have spent two of your talents in order to get 24 points of damage in 8 succesful attacks.we're not shopping for cars, a side by side comparison is inane. get you beastiary out and post a level x(cr) monster then i will post the build in question, then i will post 4 other characters, we will then do a mock combat and boil down the percentages of damage during that combat versus that cr monster. thats how we will se if the viability of those 2 feats are sound or not
(being facetious, i really dont care enough)
It's not a side by side comparison, it's a cost/benefit ratio, you think that the cost/benefit ratio is good enough (if not very good) and i think that the cost/benefit ratio is bad.
So you want a DPR contest, unfortunately i don't have enough time in my hands for that (i am in the middle of my exams) i only have time for simple math and simple thinking. In 48 hours i will have enough time for that sort of thing, we can do it then if you like, and in a new thread since i think that we have derailed this one enough as it is.
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cr 12- copper dragon (adult), green dragon (adult), lich, purple worm, roper, sea serpent against your example lvl 11 ninja. 1 CR up would not be a terribly difficult encounter for a lvl 11 party. That was the entire list of cr 12 enemies that I saw in the prd.
Sadly, most of their armor class is natural armor, and some of them do not even have a dex bonus. Meaning any benefit you gain from invisibility is canceled out by deadly sneak attack.
so i balance the penalty.... and bring my minimum damage up from 6 to 18, per attack? how is this bad again?
So you want a DPR contest, unfortunately i don't have enough time in my hands for that (i am in the middle of my exams) i only have time for simple math and simple thinking. In 48 hours i will have enough time for that sort of thing, we can do it then if you like, and in a new thread since i think that we have derailed this one enough as it is.
that exam doesn't cover the definition of facetious does it.
I play a sensei... but a multiclassed one.
Rogar is my dwarven sensei 2/cleric 2 of Irori (further levels will be in cleric and the 3.5 prestige class sacred fist)
Why? well, WIS synergy... AC, attack rolls, spells, DC for stunning fist... everything is wis-based, so crank that up and you'll be golden.
I wanted to play a gish/party buffer, and with inspire courage and spells like bless buffing is what i do atm.
There are also great feats: I've got domain strike (inevitable domain), which basicly lets you use the spell command on a succesful melee attack.
Crushing blow is possibly even better... Rogar's wis is 18 after the point gained this level, so that is a -4 on an enemy AC for 1 minute on a succesfull stunning fist attempt.
Next lvl will bring owls wisdom...
We are playing kingmaker, and Rogar is sort of a would-be (but often ignored, low CHA) adviser of the paladin of the party (our esteemed leader and candidate for kingship).... gives room for some nice roleplaying and eastern teabag wisdoms.
More powerful (and also interesting) perhaps would be sensei/druid, because of wild shaping...
So those are some ideas for you...