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I was wondering how other DMs/groups handle Initiative in the following situtation:-
The PCs are face to face with the BBEG. They are exchanging dialogue and both sides are obviously aware of each other and fully expect combat to start.
Suddenly the PC mage yells "I cast magic missile!"
Does the mage automatically win initiative and get a surprise attack?
Do you have everyone just roll initiative since all opponents are aware of each other?
Do you give the mage PC a bonus to initiative because he stated his action first?
It seems to me if players can get an advantage by doing this then why would the DM ever bother to have the BBEG do his BBEG speech, better to have him just attack and screw the roleplaying.
Thoughts?
Reebo
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Your PC mage gets a surprise round. If you want to be mean to him, you can have everyone roll a perception check to notice the casting, and let the ones who made their check act in the surprise round. But I'd say that in that situation, if the BBEG hasn't attacked yet, let him get force-missiled.
It's just like when you have a panther jump a PC who's been failing his perception checks--the panther gets a surprise round.
Roll for initiative. Have the wizard cast his spell on his turn.
A round lasts six seconds. A standard-action spell should take at least half that time to cast. Since the BBEG and the PCs are aware of each other, and probably keyed up for battle, all it would take to set everyone off would be the first syllable of a spell's incantation.
So, one second into the first round -- at least two seconds before the magic missile gets launched -- everybody's going to start reacting.
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Roll initiative. The moment is tense everyone expects combat. Take the order as rolled.
Alternately, you can enforce a house rule for monologues and pre combat chatter. When the encounter starts roll initiative. Then do the role play. When one of the player or the NPCs decides its time to fight then start at the top of the initiative order.
Once he starts to cast, roll Initiative, if he goes before the BBG then he was fast enough to get the spell off. Starting to cast the spell is a clear indicator you mean to fight right NOW.
If the wizard had a way to cast the spell with some real subtlety, like the spell prepped with silent and still metamagic, I'd probably give him the surprise action. But if he doesn't, everybody rolls initiative and we go with that.
If the wizard had a way to cast the spell with some real subtlety, like the spell prepped with silent and still metamagic, I'd probably give him the surprise action. But if he doesn't, everybody rolls initiative and we go with that.
Agreed.
I had a somewhat similar situation in a one-shot I DM'd. There were people lying in wait, ready to ambush the party. Three of the four party members made their perception check.
RAW, I think, would have dictated that there is a surprise round for nine of the ten combatants. I thought that made no sense. I said initiative order, and the guy who failed his check is flat-footed for this round. I house rule the "flat-footed until you take an action" because I don't get why I can't dodge the guy who I have been arguing with and know a fight will occur when he rushes at me, so normally he wouldn't have been flat-footed, but I figured a failed check should result in consequences. I had two players shouting at me for my ruling.
I'd still roll perception or sense motive to see if the other players and/or the BBEG notice him about to cast. And have a surprise round if at least someone doesn't. But roll initiative normally.
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If you give the wizard PC a surprise round, or even an initiative bonus, be prepared for a lot more shouting players.For this reason alone, it's best to not allow the magic missiler to get a surprise round. Everyone is aware of each other, so just roll initiative normally.
Thanks everyone and thank you James!
Reebo
In fact the BBEG presumably knows what he intends to do and would have a readied action to do it if anyone makes a hostile move while he's talking as a (whole lot of) free action(s).
You can't ready an action outside of combat. If you could, it would invalidate the whole point in initiative even existing. It would also create a world where everyone readied for hostile action, thereby putting you back into the position where everyone has to roll initiative to determine whose readied action goes off first anyways.
The way I run such situations (where combat is clearly expected but then one person starts it) is to have everyone roll initiative normally, then whoever started combat gets to go first for that turn only.
I'd say that in that situation, the BBEG is using out fo combat turns talking, but should be able to set up an "In case of Hostile activity"
I also think out of combat readying of actions is not unreasonable...
Rogue unlocks and disarms the door, and steps back, the tank goes to open the door then 5' back.
The Barb readies an action to PA/VS an enemy that steps out of the door, and the archer readies to shoot past the tank at the first hostile to step out, and the Rogue to SA him from the shadows hiding up against the wall.
looks like this
?????????????
?????????????
W.W.W._.W.W.W
.X..X..R..X..B..X..X
.X..X..X..T..X..X..X
.X..X..A..X..X..X..X
R: rogue
B: barb
T: tank
A: archer/caster
that said, the enemy can ready to shoot at the first person they see that opens the door, and pump him full of arrows, if they notice the whole thing and have a round to prepare. fair is fair, right.
This is how I usually handle this :
PC : "I MM the guy while he's talking!"
GM : "Ok, everyone roll initiative, everyone who rolls higher than Mr. Magic Missile is holding their action, is not surprised, and goes immediately before Mr. MM, in order of initiative from highest to lowest, then Mr. MM goes, and then everyone else."
So, if the PC Mage rolled a 15 initiative, and the BBEG rolled a 24, and the mage's mates rolled 18, 13, and 5, then the BBEG goes first, then the PC with 18, then the Mage, and they all have now a 15 initiative, since they all held their action to 15.
This is how I usually handle this :
PC : "I MM the guy while he's talking!"
GM : "Ok, everyone roll initiative, everyone who rolls hire than Mr. Magic Missile is holding their action, is not surprised, and goes immediately before Mr. MM, in order of initiative from highest to lowest, then Mr. MM goes, and then everyone else."So, if the PC Mage rolled a 15 initiative, and the BBEG rolled a 24, and the mage's mates rolled 18, 13, and 5, then the BBEG goes first, then the PC with 18, then the Mage, and they all have now a 15 initiative, since they all held their action to 15.
i like it.
Or, if the Mage is able to roll some serious stealth checks and has some method of hiding his casting, like a still/silent, and the BBEG totally wiffs his perception and is "distracted by butterflies" by rolling a 1 or something... then he can have it.
Or if it's quickened. I'll give him the quickened spell then everyone gets init order, but the mage used his Swift action for his turn, and doesn't get another until his next turn. i don't think anyone gets to react to yadda yadda yad-*snap*[ZOMGFORCEMISSILESTOTHEFACEWTF]-da
This is what initiative is for: People are aware of each other, they are aware that hostilities are a possibility, so initiative determines who goes first, not the guy who can shout the fastest.
This is not a playground where you can "call" anything. This not being the playground is the main reason the rules are there - so your character's abilities matter.
We can turn it into a shouting match "I am first!" "No, I am!" "I called it!" "But I am faster, I'm the fastest cowboy in the wild west!" "I shoot first!" "You miss, I shoot and hit you" "No, I hit".
If the player insists on it, let him do it.
And then proceed to do it to them with everything. People on the street they have no cause to suspect of hostility will just "call" surprise round.
Keep it up until they seem annoyed, and then suggest you all stop annoying each other. :P
Or just explain them first what you're going to do if they insist on playground rules.
This is how I usually handle this :
PC : "I MM the guy while he's talking!"
GM : "Ok, everyone roll initiative, everyone who rolls higher than Mr. Magic Missile is holding their action, is not surprised, and goes immediately before Mr. MM, in order of initiative from highest to lowest, then Mr. MM goes, and then everyone else."So, if the PC Mage rolled a 15 initiative, and the BBEG rolled a 24, and the mage's mates rolled 18, 13, and 5, then the BBEG goes first, then the PC with 18, then the Mage, and they all have now a 15 initiative, since they all held their action to 15.
My apologies, this is functionally no different then a pure initiative roll. The only instance such number adjustment would be useful is where you expect reenforcing allies of one side or the other to show up mid-fight.
BBEG still goes before the RIW (Rudely Interrupting Wizard).
Or did you mean that the RIW goes first, then the BBEG at a delayed post-15 Int as he uses his delayed action reacting to what the Wizard did?
15 WIZ
15- BBEG
15-- Friend 1
13 Friend 2
8 Friend 3
Or
15++ BBEG
15+ Friend 1
15 WIZ
13 Friend 2
8 Friend 3
For those who mention silent/still spell combo, what do you think of using supernatural or spell-like abilities that have no visible indicators? I know many times it's fun to RP that a given ability comes with casting-like motions, but by RAW none is required. Take a witch for instance. In this situation, could a witch try to put the BBEG to sleep with a slumber hex in the surprise round?
And on a similar note, consider the diviner wizard who can always act in the surprise round. Can they toss out a magic missile (or do any other standard action) in a conversation to start combat whenever they like?
I know both of these techniques can seem a little power-gamey and I'm not suggesting they be abused. But they do seem to work within the rule set.
If the MM caster has it quickened, or as a SLA, everyone roll initiative and the caster is at the top without having to roll. The only caveat I would give is that he gets [/]only[/i] the quickened spell, and no other action that round, as he was 'jumping the gun' to initiate combat. After that, depending on whether you roll initiative every round or once for the combat, things could get interesting.
My apologies, this is functionally no different then a pure initiative roll. The only instance such number adjustment would be useful is where you expect reenforcing allies of one side or the other to show up mid-fight.
It is, but it's very subtle. Ok, let's give some stats, so everyone can see the subtle difference.
Let's assume the MM guy has dex 16, his ally, a rogue, has dex 20, and the BBEG has a dex of 14 (a summoner bbeg with his eidelon hidden).
Normally, if they just rolled initiative, they would go in this order on the first turn and every turn afterwards :
BBEG : 24
Ally1: 18
WIZ : 15
Ally2: 13
Ally3: 8
With my method, this is what happens :
Surprise round :
BBEG : 15 (1st)
Ally1: 15 (2nd)
WIZ : 15 (3rd)
Ally2: 13
Ally3: 8
Subsequent rounds :
Ally1: 15 (Dex 20, 1st)
WIZ : 15 (Dex 16, 2nd)
BBEG : 15 (Dex 14, 3rd)
Ally2: 13
Ally3: 8
So, the guy who jumps the gun get's a subtle benefit for his team, that is, he slows any enemies (and any allies) faster than him down to his speed, at which point dex takes over as the tie breaker. I put the BBEG and Ally1 first, because they are basically reading an action on their initiatives that triggers to 'Attack if anyone attacks my side, or if my side attacks them'.
My apologies, this is functionally no different then a pure initiative roll. The only instance such number adjustment would be useful is where you expect reenforcing allies of one side or the other to show up mid-fight.
It is, but it's very subtle. Ok, let's give some stats, so everyone can see the subtle difference.
Let's assume the MM guy has dex 16, his ally, a rogue, has dex 20, and the BBEG has a dex of 14 (a summoner bbeg with his eidelon hidden).
Normally, if they just rolled initiative, they would go in this order on the first turn and every turn afterwards :
BBEG : 24
Ally1: 18
WIZ : 15
Ally2: 13
Ally3: 8With my method, this is what happens :
Surprise round :
BBEG : 15 (1st)
Ally1: 15 (2nd)
WIZ : 15 (3rd)
Ally2: 13
Ally3: 8Subsequent rounds :
Ally1: 15 (Dex 20, 1st)
WIZ : 15 (Dex 16, 2nd)
BBEG : 15 (Dex 14, 3rd)
Ally2: 13
Ally3: 8So, the guy who jumps the gun get's a subtle benefit for his team, that is, he slows any enemies (and any allies) faster than him down to his speed, at which point dex takes over as the tie breaker. I put the BBEG and Ally1 first, because they are basically reading an action on their initiatives that triggers to 'Attack if anyone attacks my side, or if my side attacks them'.
I don't think delayed actions actually work that way. You keep your same initiative order from round to round, regardless of what "count" you're on. If I win initiative and then delay to go right before you do, I still go before you next round, regardless of who has the higher initiative mod.
For those who mention silent/still spell combo, what do you think of using supernatural or spell-like abilities that have no visible indicators? I know many times it's fun to RP that a given ability comes with casting-like motions, but by RAW none is required. Take a witch for instance. In this situation, could a witch try to put the BBEG to sleep with a slumber hex in the surprise round?
And on a similar note, consider the diviner wizard who can always act in the surprise round. Can they toss out a magic missile (or do any other standard action) in a conversation to start combat whenever they like?
I know both of these techniques can seem a little power-gamey and I'm not suggesting they be abused. But they do seem to work within the rule set.
Even abilities without visible effects would be pretty obvious (to the target at least) if they still required a saving throw. Whether you arw fighting off poison in your system, explosive fire, or mental domination, you know you are, or have been, attacked in some fashion.
I might even roll initiative normally against such an effect and describe it as "he felt the mental attack, but before it could take its full hold, he wins initiative and acts. *king acts, dominator acts* Despite his cry for help and dramatic weapon draw, the king fails his save and is now dominated. In an a monotone voice, he orders his guards to stand down."
I don't think delayed actions actually work that way. You keep your same initiative order from round to round, regardless of what "count" you're on. If I win initiative and then delay to go right before you do, I still go before you next round, regardless of who has the higher initiative mod.
I don't think mdt is saying that's how things work in the rules, but how they work in his game.
By RAW, any time you start combat everybody rolls initiative. If everybody is aware of everybody else, you start with a normal turn. If some people have awareness and others don't, the former get a surprise round. A diviner always gets a surprise round.
This thread has had a number of good house rules for handling the OP's situation. I myself ran a similar encounter by forcing the caster to make a bluff check opposed by a perception check.
I was wondering how other DMs/groups handle Initiative in the following situtation:-
The PCs are face to face with the BBEG. They are exchanging dialogue and both sides are obviously aware of each other and fully expect combat to start.
Suddenly the PC mage yells "I cast magic missile!"Does the mage automatically win initiative and get a surprise attack?
Do you have everyone just roll initiative since all opponents are aware of each other?
Do you give the mage PC a bonus to initiative because he stated his action first?
It seems to me if players can get an advantage by doing this then why would the DM ever bother to have the BBEG do his BBEG speech, better to have him just attack and screw the roleplaying.
Thoughts?
Reebo
Initiative should have been rolled. Characters can talk out of initiative order because it's not an action (save for talking to cast a spell). While delaying actions the monologue could have went on and come the wizards turn he then may choose to delay to see what happens or attack. That's how I'd handle it. Unless the villain is unreachable at the current moment expect his monologue to be interrupted by an attack.
I don't think delayed actions actually work that way. You keep your same initiative order from round to round, regardless of what "count" you're on. If I win initiative and then delay to go right before you do, I still go before you next round, regardless of who has the higher initiative mod.I don't think mdt is saying that's how things work in the rules, but how they work in his game.
By RAW, any time you start combat everybody rolls initiative. If everybody is aware of everybody else, you start with a normal turn. If some people have awareness and others don't, the former get a surprise round. A diviner always gets a surprise round.
This thread has had a number of good house rules for handling the OP's situation. I myself ran a similar encounter by forcing the caster to make a bluff check opposed by a perception check.
DelayBy choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.
You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what's going to happen. You also can't interrupt anyone else's action (as you can with a readied action).
Initiative Consequences of Delaying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don't get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again).
If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
rules quote
That doesn't make your suggestion RAW. You can't delay out of combat. Even if you are saying the wizard's attempt at a quick attack retroactively starts combat and some people must have delayed, it's still not RAW as that is the GM telling the players what choices they would make.
rules quoteThat doesn't make your suggestion RAW. You can't delay out of combat. Even if you are saying the wizard's attempt at a quick attack retroactively starts combat and some people must have delayed, it's still not RAW as that is the GM telling the players what choices they would make.
It's not at all me telling them what choices they would make. They came face to face with the BBEG, and everyone started talking. They are ALREADY in combat, they are all simply talking rather than fighting. As soon as one of them (either the BBEG or the PCs) decide to stop talking and attack, then they stop delaying attacks. If you've been talking to someone you know is hostile for 5 minutes, there is no such thing as surprise, nor surprise round.
EDIT : Also, please provide a rules quote that says you cannot delay outside of combat? I would like to know how an ambush works if you cannot delay.
They came face to face with the BBEG, and everyone started talking. They are ALREADY in combat, they are all simply talking rather than fighting.
I disagree. Combat involves initiative. If you do your RP using initiative you could make the argument your characters are always in combat, but I suspect you don't. I also suspect people aren't talking in initiative order which is typically the only way to do it in combat. The mechanics for out of combat aren't well defined on purpose while combat is heavily defined. That's what makes the issues around switching from one to another so dicey.
As soon as one of them (either the BBEG or the PCs) decide to stop talking and attack, then they stop delaying attacks. If you've been talking to someone you know is hostile for 5 minutes, there is no such thing as surprise, nor surprise round.
Agreed and the rules reflect that. Combat begins when anybody says they want to do a combat action and at that point initiative is rolled, etc. The exception James said he would allow above is when somebody attempts to do an action that is completely unnoticeable within the rules until its effects take place.
EDIT : Also, please provide a rules quote that says you cannot delay outside of combat? I would like to know how an ambush works if you cannot delay.
Under Special Initiative Actions in the Combat section: "Here are ways to change when you act during combat by altering your place in the initiative order." The next heading after that is "Delay".
An ambush, by RAW, involves some group of ambushers attempting to hide from the unsuspecting victims. Combat starts with initiative rolls, and stealth rolls opposed by perception rolls. If none of the victims noticed the ambushers you have a good old fashioned ambush and the ambushers all get one standard action a piece in the surprise round.
Everyone is aware, roll initiative.
If if helps - "I cast magic missile!" - doesn't actually mean he casts it. What he's saying is "I begin casting a spell!". You roll init to see if he's fast enough to get it off.
