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RD also said his build does not mature until after 10th level, and the spell that makes it really good is not available until about 15th level so it seems to be a non-issue anyway at least until I see a 10th level build that does something remarkable with blasting.Level 10 draconic sorcerer:
Feat: Maximize Spell
Trait: (the one that makes meta magic -1 effective on one spell)
Item: Lesser Rod of Quickened SpellMaximized Fireball (5th level slot) = 60 damage + 10 (bloodline) = 70
Quickened Fireball (3rd level slot) = 35 damage + 10 (bloodline) = 45115 area damage (75 area damage w/ level 10 energy resistance)
(this is far from optimized, but 115 damage at level 10 still raw kills many PCs)
When a sorcerer applies a metamagic feat to a spell it increases the casting time by one step (standard->full-round). The exception is quicken spell. This means a sorcerer can not cast two fireballs in a round unless both are quickened or one has no metamagic applied. Wizards can do what you are describing (and other variations of the same), but the wizard must prepare his spell slots ahead of time and receives less spells per day than the sorcerer.
Also, as for the thread in general. I keep seeing "metamagic using casters can do x damage at y level" but have not yet seen a comparison to another class. In addition several people have mentioned the low saving throw of the metamagic spells, but this argument has been completely ignored. In order to properly support the assertion that metamagic is unbalanced we need to compare damage/effect possible with both the metamagic caster and other min-maxed builds. This requires factoring in the effect of low saves, spell resistance, energy resist, and any other applicable defenses against the caster. Claiming a fighter can produce too much damage due to iterative attacks and then ignoring that targets have high ACs which make the later iterative attacks less likely to hit and never describing the appropriate level of damage for the fighter is similarly ridiculous.
They require higher slots, but the spell is still the level of the spell. So a third spell with metamagic feats added can still be additionally buffed by a metamagic rod.Which are way, way too cheap. A lesser rod of quicken spell is 35000 gold (half if crafted) and would allow you to cast two of those fireballs you described in a round, three times a day.
For roughly the same price as a +4 sword.
35,000 gp or a +4 sword is "cheap?" Wow. I guess I'm just not used to playing such high level characters (or such fantastically wealthy low level characters). Going by the standard wealthy by level, you'd have to be 9th level before you could even afford one of those rods, and that would take up almost all of your wealth! By the time most characters would be able to afford such an item without giving up other vital essentials, you'd probably be 11th-12th level or more. That certainly does not fit my definition of "cheap." And this is the lesser rod of quickening!
So, yeah, I think the large majority of people would agree with me than an item that is so expensive that it's really only attainable by high (10th+) level characters is anything but "cheap." Maybe in your games your DM is very generous with gold, or something, but in my experience, and I've played alot of games around 8th-10th level, I've never once seen a character at that level with a lesser rod of quickening, ever.
This means a sorcerer can not cast two fireballs in a round unless both are quickened or one has no metamagic applied.
Not meaning to nitpick, but this part is incorrect. A character can take both a full round action and a swift action on the same round, so a sorcerer can cast two metamagic spells in the same round even if only one of them is quickened. What you are suggesting, casting two quickened spells, is not actually possible, since characters are specifically limited to casting only one quickened spell per round.
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They require higher slots, but the spell is still the level of the spell. So a third spell with metamagic feats added can still be additionally buffed by a metamagic rod.Which are way, way too cheap. A lesser rod of quicken spell is 35000 gold (half if crafted) and would allow you to cast two of those fireballs you described in a round, three times a day.
For roughly the same price as a +4 sword.
35,000 gp or a +4 sword is "cheap?" Wow. I guess I'm just not used to playing such high level characters (or such fantastically wealthy low level characters). Going by the standard wealthy by level, you'd have to be 9th level before you could even afford one of those rods, and that would take up almost all of your wealth! By the time most characters would be able to afford such an item without giving up other vital essentials, you'd probably be 11th-12th level or more. That certainly does not fit my definition of "cheap." And this is the lesser rod of quickening!
So, yeah, I think the large majority of people would agree with me than an item that is so expensive that it's really only attainable by high (10th+) level characters is anything but "cheap." Maybe in your games your DM is very generous with gold, or something, but in my experience, and I've played alot of games around 8th-10th level, I've never once seen a character at that level with a lesser rod of quickening, ever.
As I pointed out, craft rod is 9th, making it 17,500, which is well within the reach of characters at that level.
And as I also said, this isn't a huge feat expense when you have 6 or 7 feats at this point as a wizard.
I also love how "High Level" is a moving target. Most discussions call high level 15 plus. Now apparently 10th is high level.
The point was to ask if a +4 weapon was of equal or lesser value to what is provided by this item, since they are similarly priced.
In my mind there is no question the Rod is more valuable.
Or you could take one sixth level slot and summon a huge elemental and choose whatever damage type you want as well as having some aligned outsider options and dinosaurs to choose from. 200 damage in one turn is impressive, but 200 damage from two sixth level slots and one turn's worth of casting isn't looking so special.Assuming your spell isn't disrupted, since it is a full round action to summon unless you are a specialist of some sort. And also assuming where you put the dino when you were casting is still a good place to put it now that a round has passed.
Emphasis mine.
That is wrong.PRD link
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
Also the only thing i don't like about metamagic rods is that spontaneous casters still have to make the spell a full round action (unless it's quicken), other than that i think that ciretose is overreacting.
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Emphasis mine.
That is wrong.
PRD link
** spoiler omitted **
My mistake.
However huge elementals are still only CR 7 creatures.
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I also love how "High Level" is a moving target. Most discussions call high level 15 plus. Now apparently 10th is high level.Sorry to but in to the discussion with a hugely off-topic point before actually participating in the conversation at hand, but apparently that's what I do when I see someone mention typical belief as to what is "high-level."
Back in the days before 3rd edition, before the DMG said "yeah, every metropolis probably has an NPC Wizard around that is around 15th level" and many other silly (especially when paraphrased) things, "High-Level" was very clearly defined.
Back then, it was 9th level - Characters attracted others that wanted to learn from them, built strongholds, ruled countries, and were already more powerful than 99% of NPCs.
3rd edition did absolutely nothing to alter the relative power-level that each level represents - other than making levels after 9th add more power than they used to - and somehow people started insisting that "high-level" moved to higher numbers.
To state my opinion as simply as possible: After 9th is high-level, just like it always has been - people just got confused the moment the official rules let every race reach any level in any class... probably because the DMG for 3rd edition came with a ridiculously poorly thought out city building section that insists that even small villages have PC classed characters of higher than 1st level on a regular basis.
The basic questions are simple.
1) Is the fact that a wizard can do an average of roughly 90 damage at long range to a 20 ft radius area by casting two empowered fireballs with only an investment of 2 feats and 17,500 gold as early as 9th level an unintended consequence of feats added in APG.
2) Is this scaling of this ability up through high level play also problematic (the layout of what you can do at each level going forward were described earlier, allowing for damage at long range for a 20' radius area of between 80% and 100% of Bestiary monster equal CR level hit points)
My contention is that there are more or less 3 problems.
1) Metamagic rods are overpowered, or at minimum underpriced.
2) Both Persistent and Intensify are overpowered for their spell level, and arguably just plain overpowered.
3) Stacking of metamagic with rods opens way to many exploitable loopholes.
Let me be very, very clear. I have no issue with optimized builds that can do amazing things in exchange for having a very narrow utility. If you have to use all of your feats to do one uber-combo, I am not one to begrudge that ubercombo. You will suck in equal measure in other ways to the amount you dominate that one thing you do.
However in this case, the sacrifice isn't significant enough relative to the pay off. 2 feats and the rod becomes 17,500.
It isn't just fireballs. As someone pointed out you can use persistent instead of empowered to make two quickened spells equal having to make 4 consecutive saves on a mid level SoD spell. Granted those saves are two levels lower (roughly 10% easier to make the save) but now you have to make 4 saves in a round instead of one.
In Ultimate Magic the Devs spelled out clearly what appropriate spell level balance should be, and both of these metamagic feats are well beyond what that book describes as "balanced".
I think at minimum that metamagic rods should not stack with other metamagic feats, and I think they should effect the spell slot level and not the spell level. Both of these are easy fixes, and I don't think anyone is arguing against the spell slot being used instead of the spell level issue.
I would personally go farther, as I think relative to other items in the game they are cheap, but that is obviously much more debatable.
Just want to restate the issue at root before the conversations drifts to far away.
Personally, I wouldn't even go so far as preventing rods from stacking with other metamagic -- I'd just make them apply to the spell level of the final product -- so you can't use a lesser rod on your maximized fireball. At the point you start needing greater rods to make with the big bangs, I think it's all balanced again.
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1) Is the fact that a wizard can do an average of roughly 90 damage at long range to a 20 ft radius area by casting two empowered fireballs with only an investment of 2 feats and 17,500 gold as early as 9th level an unintended consequence of feats added in APG.
I've been reading this with some amusement but isn't it four feats?
Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Craft Rod, Quicken Spell?
Even if you don't take Quicken Spell and just 'fake it' via the +5 DC, that's a DC of 22, easy, but not automatic. Plus you have invested in craft *something* for those skill points. (aside, I misremembered they required Limited wish, which would make the DC a slightly riskier 27)
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1) Is the fact that a wizard can do an average of roughly 90 damage at long range to a 20 ft radius area by casting two empowered fireballs with only an investment of 2 feats and 17,500 gold as early as 9th level an unintended consequence of feats added in APG.
I've been reading this with some amusement but isn't it four feats?
Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Craft Rod, Quicken Spell?
Even if you don't take Quicken Spell and just 'fake it' via the +5 DC, that's a DC of 22, easy, but not automatic. Plus you have invested in craft *something* for those skill points. (aside, I misremembered they required Limited wish, which would make the DC a slightly riskier 27)
Fair enough, three feats. I appreciate the correction. However remember it is an empowered Fireball at 9th, not maximized since you can only cast 5th level.
So as a 5th level spell slot it is an empowered fireball (10*3.5 *1.5) for an average of 52.6 per fireball, able to cast two in a round for a total possible damage of 105. At 9th this would only be 47.25 since it’s only 9d6 rather than 10 for a max damage of 94.5.
Again at long range for a 20 ft radius.
So let’s go level by level.
At 9th, you spend 17,500, which is 38% of WBL and so well within the standards. We have a max damage of 94.5. I’ve used 3 of 6 feats (7 if human) and 38% of WBL.
At 10th that 17,500 is 28% of WBL and you get a metamagic feat at 10th. We’ll can use that on either Intensified Spell, even though we can’t it yet, or take it next level.
At 11th I will hold off on Maximized (I don’t need it yet) even though now I have a 6th level slot. Now I can cast an intensified fireball at +1 now, so for a 4th level slot I can do 52.5 average damage, 105 if I cast two of them quickened. That is the same as I did last level with a 5th level slot, so that is nice, but not as nice as what I can do with the 6th level slot. Now I can cast an intensified, empowered fireball that does 78.75 damage, and if I quicken it I can send two of those That 17,500 investment is 21% of WBL.
At 12th no real change, other than the 17,500 is now only 16% of WBL, so I could but another one if I want.
At 13th I’ll take maximized so. I still can put the other damage in the slots above, but now in my 7th level slot I can cast a maximized intensified fireball that does 90 damage, or 180 damage quickened. WBL will be 13%
At long range to a 20 ft radius.
This isn’t with any other school or bloodline bonuses. This isn’t with any other equipment to enhance anything. This leaves about half of your feats open, and even at 9th level 62% of your WBL up to your discretion.
Instead of empower, let’s go persistent. And instead of fireball, we can make you try to make 4 consecutive saves against quickened stinking cloud, deep slumber, hold person, etc…
At 11th make those 4 consecutive saves against Phantasmal killer.
At 13th make those 4 consecutive saves against Dominate person or baleful polymorph.
And this requires even fewer feats than the Fireball track above. And neither of these are anywhere near optimized.
I think the intent of Intensify was to make low level spells viable at higher levels. The unintended consequence was that with it only being a +1, combining it with empower, maximize or both then quickening it with a rod is ridiculous.
I think the intent of persistent was as a counter to the improved will/reflex/fort feats. But there was no need for such a thing in the first place and when combined with a quicken rod is ridiculous.
What am I missing that makes these things not a problem?
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I know I'm late to the party, and I haven't read the whole thread, but I just couldn't get over this:
Very first post:
I don't think anyone can honestly contest this fact.
A couple of replies down:
But again, I'm open to suggestion.
So he's open to suggestion, aside from the fact that he believes his views incontestible. Found that pretty amusing.
Also, in before someone tries to accuse me of not understanding how broken and/or lame metamagic is despite my having not actually voiced my own opinion yet.
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Fair enough, three feats. I appreciate the correction. However remember it is an empowered Fireball at 9th, not maximized since you can only cast 5th level.
No problem. I personally dislike Metamagic rods (my biases come from being a psionics fan, though, and liking 'our' metamagic rules). I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. I still trip on things that seperate Pathfinder from 3.x (limited wish for metamagic rods for example).
I liked the houserule above about limiting Wizards/clerics/druids/other prepared spell casters to using the rod when memorizing the spell. I don't mind sorcerers being kings of blasting, they already lag in other ways.
Fair enough, three feats. I appreciate the correction. However remember it is an empowered Fireball at 9th, not maximized since you can only cast 5th level.
So as a 5th level spell slot it is an empowered fireball (10*3.5 *1.5) for an average of 52.6 per fireball, able to cast two in a round for a total possible damage of 105. At 9th this would only be 47.25 since it’s only 9d6 rather than 10 for a max damage of 94.5.
Again at long range for a 20 ft radius.
You are burning two spells, and at the highest level you can cast that could also be cut do a small enough amount of damage that it won't give the group an obvious advantage. It seems inefficient to me. If it is one monster cast haste, which is only a 3rd level spell. If it is a lot of them summon monsters then cast quickened haste or vice versa. The summons will keep some of the baddies off the damage dealers in your group. You have done the same thing with less resources being spent.
This strategy works for a lot of levels, and is very efficient. You don't have to worry about reflex saves, and energy resistance, or having to worry about not being able to hit the bad guys without hitting your party members.Can it potentially do a lot of damage? Sure it can. It just uses too many resources to not be able to bring more reliability to the table for my taste.
At 11th make those 4 consecutive saves against Phantasmal killer.
At 13th make those 4 consecutive saves against Dominate person or baleful polymorph.
Phantasmal Killer is a bad spell because most people either have a good fort or will save. The other two are nice though, and I do think Persistent Spell is about right with it taking up 2 more slots. If you moved it to 3 then I would just rather cast a higher level spell. I am still don't think it is game breaking though. There are a lot of slot being burned to make this work.
I had to think about it, but Intensity is only worth about a +1. By itself it is not all that great. It is really empower that brings the pain.
I like persistent, but not in a rod.
It(metamagic stacking) is not something I can't deal with as a GM so I am still not bothered by it, other than a persistent rod, but I have used to played in a lot of games with powergamers also, and that may be the reason.
Am I the only one that gets annoyed with "fixes" along the lines of the GM specifically nerfing a character? Honestly if that is an acceptable answer then everything is always balanced because the GM can always change the circumstances.
It seems like there should be a better way to address the fact that a build is more or less circumstantial than just listing silver bullets.
It seems like there should be a better way to address the fact that a build is more or less circumstantial than just listing silver bullets.
As a note, some of us were not listing silver bullets; this is the sort of build where just regular bullets do just fine.
A GM doesn't have to go out of his way to include monsters with SR, Fire Resist, access to potent treasure, or access to common low level spells.
The GM would have to go out of his way to avoid the party running into them.
Am I the only one that gets annoyed with "fixes" along the lines of the GM specifically nerfing a character? Honestly if that is an acceptable answer then everything is always balanced because the GM can always change the circumstances.
It seems like there should be a better way to address the fact that a build is more or less circumstantial than just listing silver bullets.
Oh, it IS an acceptable answer. Up to a certain point.
Personally, if I see that i just have to homebrew half of the game, I just stop supporting it.
It happened in the past, it can happen again.
I've just played in games without metamagic rods, and we're all happy and feeling balanced. That seems to be the simplest solution that any GM could implement at home.
Even as an optimizer, I take pride in not relying on metamagic rods in most of my spellcaster builds.
I want character to be powerful for themselves, not because of their gear (unless it's an artificer concept).
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I've just played in games without metamagic rods, and we're all happy and feeling balanced. That seems to be the simplest solution that any GM could implement at home.Even as an optimizer, I take pride in not relying on metamagic rods in most of my spellcaster builds.
I want character to be powerful for themselves, not because of their gear (unless it's an artificer concept).
Agreed. I design and build my characters without the assumption that I'll have access to any given piece of equipment when I want/need it. All special equipment I receive becomes gravy, I'm flexible in all sorts of situations all by myself, and taking care of my character is much, much easier.
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I've just played in games without metamagic rods, and we're all happy and feeling balanced. That seems to be the simplest solution that any GM could implement at home.Even as an optimizer, I take pride in not relying on metamagic rods in most of my spellcaster builds.
I want character to be powerful for themselves, not because of their gear (unless it's an artificer concept).
With a caster I agree. With a non-caster...well...kind of hard not expect or plan for items for those classes.
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With a caster I agree. With a non-caster...well...kind of hard not expect or plan for items for those classes.I've just played in games without metamagic rods, and we're all happy and feeling balanced. That seems to be the simplest solution that any GM could implement at home.Even as an optimizer, I take pride in not relying on metamagic rods in most of my spellcaster builds.
I want character to be powerful for themselves, not because of their gear (unless it's an artificer concept).
Unless you're like me and haven't been playing since 3rd Edition came out and have no idea what's out there. Then you go along, trying to get the most out of your actual character, then suddenly say "What's that? For 2k gold I could get a +1 to my shield and my armor? Sign me up! I was wondering what I was supposed to be doing with all this gold... hundreds of potions seemed excessive..."
As I pointed out, craft rod is 9th, making it 17,500, which is well within the reach of characters at that level.
This is a problem with Pathfinder's item creation rules, not with metamagic rods. Plenty of magic items become too cheap when you can make them at half price. There at least used to be an xp cost to make items, now, there is just a trivially easy roll.
And as I also said, this isn't a huge feat expense when you have 6 or 7 feats at this point as a wizard.
One of the things I dislike about metamagic rods is how they are better for wizards than they are for sorcerers. Wizards get around all of the disadvantages that they have with metamagics when they use a rod, most importantly the normal need to prepare the metamagic when they prepare the spell. But sorcerers still have to spend a full round action? WTH?
That said, when you're talking about stacking metamagic rods with other metamagics, in that case the wizard did have to prepare metamagics when he prepared the spell, making this tactis much less convenient for him than it is for a sorcerer, who can do it on the fly.
I also love how "High Level" is a moving target. Most discussions call high level 15 plus. Now apparently 10th is high level.
10th+ level has been considered "high level" at least since 2nd edition. Call it mid-level or whatever you want, but an item that can't normally be purchased or made until 9th+ level, meaning that nearly half of the level range of the game has already passed, is not "cheap" or "too easy" to get!
The point was to ask if a +4 weapon was of equal or lesser value to what is provided by this item, since they are similarly priced.
In my mind there is no question the Rod is more valuable.
The metmagic rod only works 3/day, so obviously, when it is used, it should provide a much more impressive result than an item that works all day, every day. And I think you are seriously underestimating the destructive potential of a +4 weapon in the right hands.
Aye, a +4 weapon is a serious destructive item in the right hands. Bypassing most DR is just the tip of the iceberg...
Actually level 10 is usually more then half the game. The higher levels tend to fly by quicker since the opponents draft more xp. Unless you slow down for item crafting, of course...you still need 35 days to imbue that Quicken rod you're making, and is the rest of the party waiting around while you do that?
If you're playing an AP, odds are this is NOT going to work unless the DM hands you a ton of downtime. Most AP's take place over fairly short periods of time. You don't get a month of downtime to make your Rod, so you have to buy it...you've literally no choice in the matter, and that delays even longer the time it takes for this trick to become a killer.
The Quicken trick with a sorc is indeed a delay thing...it's a full round action to apply metas for a sorc, so unless the Sorc has the Quicken feat and uses it to make his spell a standard action while the Rod makes a second one a swift action, doing this is liable to get interrupted.
==Aelryinth
Considering that in all the games I've played, I've seen maybe 2 metamagic rods total, I'm not sure I'm seeing the concern. Even in the higher level games, the DMs have controlled WBL and time flow enough that even with crafting feats, magical items are not particularly abundant. Take the ability to control WBL with all the defensive measures that start to become common after level 5, and metamagic rods seem balanced enough. They give you a cool trick, but nothing can't reasonably be countered by the DM on a fairly regular basis in a variety of ways.
This is a problem with Pathfinder's item creation rules, not with metamagic rods. Plenty of magic items become too cheap when you can make them at half price. There at least used to be an xp cost to make items, now, there is just a trivially easy roll.
The XP costs of v3.5 were not only trivial, they were brokenly powerful due to the "rubber band effect" of XP. I can't tell you how often I would level up, choose not to level, spend all my XP crafting a bunch of super powerful items, and then gain two or three levels BEYOND the other party members because I gained more XP due to being behind in level (which was a joke as I readily made up for it in gear).
This is a problem with Pathfinder's item creation rules, not with metamagic rods. Plenty of magic items become too cheap when you can make them at half price. There at least used to be an xp cost to make items, now, there is just a trivially easy roll.
As I pointed out, craft rod is 9th, making it 17,500, which is well within the reach of characters at that level.
While I've never liked the idea, I've always thought that Wealth By Level for characters created above level 1 was, strictly speaking, supposed to be based entirely off the the Base Price (or purchase price / list price) of an item regardless of whether or not it was crafted by the character in question. WBL is an abstraction that provides the general wealth of a generic character of the indicated level independent of the capabilities of that character. (My reasoning against allowing an Item Creation Feat discount is well-documented by others here.) As such, I wouldn't consider the halving in price advanced above as a valid argument for the imbalance of the Rod in the hands of a freshly minted 9th level caster.
As far as an organic 9th level character, in all the adventures I've played, never once have I, on leveling to 9th, had both the time (18 days if you add another +5 to the DC to rush creation, otherwise 35 days of crafting) and the 17,500 gold in readies to spend on the creation of anything. I might have had the WBL to afford it if I sold everything I could do without (since again, WBL figures List price, not the 50% lower sale price most adventurers are limited to), but usually I had plenty of good uses for the items I had already acquired. I'm not saying that an organic character will never be able to make this item, just that there are other factors in play for an organic character that make the procurement of the item more challenging than is being depicted.
Even in the higher level games, the DMs have controlled WBL and time flow enough that even with crafting feats, magical items are not particularly abundant. Take the ability to control WBL with all the defensive measures that start to become common after level 5, and metamagic rods seem balanced enough. They give you a cool trick, but nothing can't reasonably be countered by the DM on a fairly regular basis in a variety of ways.
+1
At 11th make those 4 consecutive saves against Phantasmal killer.At 13th make those 4 consecutive saves against Dominate person or baleful polymorph.
Phantasmal Killer is a bad spell because most people either have a good fort or will save. The other two are nice though, and I do think Persistent Spell is about right with it taking up 2 more slots. If you moved it to 3 then I would just rather cast a higher level spell. I am still don't think it is game breaking though. There are a lot of slot being burned to make this work.
I had to think about it, but Intensity is only worth about a +1. By itself it is not all that great. It is really empower that brings the pain.
I agree that Persistent spell is fine with a +2 bump. I disagree that Dominate Person and Baelful Polymorph require 4 consecutive saves, unless there's a Quickened and a regular casting (in which case the 13th level caster has burned through twice as many of his most limited resource, which may qualify as a Nova, and carries its own balancing mechanic if not employed against a Challenging Encounter, as well as being justified if used against an encounter that is legitimately challenging). The Persistent spell metamagic feats says that "Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw." In both cases, that's two saves if the first save doesn't fail (since any subsequent saves that might be necessary are part of the effect of the spell, not saves against the actual spell, since the spell must be in effect to provoke the later saves).
As far as Intensify and Persistent being unbalanced, while it's true that an Intensified Empowered Fireball will do more dice in damage, the effectiveness of this is mitigated by the save DC being for a 3rd level spell rather than a 6th level spell. If one effect is produced by a Rod, the Rod remains balanced by the fact that it's only usable 3/day. For Persistent spells, the same holds true: the lower save DC and the lower spell level balances the advantage of forcing two saves.
The reason that the Rods are balanced is because encounters are not supposed to occur in a vacuum (as they seem to be being analyzed by the OP here), but in a continuum of other encounters for the day. Using resources faster {here} means that fewer resources (were used/can be used) {there}. Using a Rod depletes the ability to use it later on in the day. Conversely, if the day contains only one or two encounters, either the encounters are Challenging and significant and warrant the expenditure of significant resources, or the GM is content to allow a modicum of easier-to-obtain XP. The GM is never ever "stuck" in a scenario that forces him (or her) to face the party with only one on-level encounter per day.
The XP costs of v3.5 were not only trivial, they were brokenly powerful due to the "rubber band effect" of XP. I can't tell you how often I would level up, choose not to level, spend all my XP crafting a bunch of super powerful items, and then gain two or three levels BEYOND the other party members because I gained more XP due to being behind in level (which was a joke as I readily made up for it in gear).
I'm not saying that the item creation rules in 3.5 were perfect. As much as "rubber band" xp could be abused then, making items is even easier now. I don't want to derail this thread with a rant about Pathfinder's item creation rules, though, so I'll save that for another time.
Off topic more than a bit: I think the best solution to crappy magic item economics and players running above WBL would be giving each character another resource.
If all items have drawn from inner spiritual power, that could be level based and fixed. This power could fuel only certain amount of items of set maximum power. The items would require certain investment, which could set their maximum power to which they can grow, but otherwise they'd be locked with wielder's spiritual reserves. The specific enchantments could then be used to grant alternative powers, like flaming. If the items had minimal user levels or worked to a lesser extent for low level characters it could help to keep power creep in check IMO.
Off topic more than a bit: I think the best solution to crappy magic item economics and players running above WBL would be giving each character another resource.
If all items have drawn from inner spiritual power, that could be level based and fixed. This power could fuel only certain amount of items of set maximum power. The items would require certain investment, which could set their maximum power to which they can grow, but otherwise they'd be locked with wielder's spiritual reserves. The specific enchantments could then be used to grant alternative powers, like flaming. If the items had minimal user levels or worked to a lesser extent for low level characters it could help to keep power creep in check IMO.
On paper, in principle, I like this notion a lot!
In implementations I've found or tried to build, I find that this almost always bogs down and bloats into a resource tracking system that takes more time to manage than running the rest of the game.
...
Back on-topic, I can see the validity of complaints of imbalance that Metamagic Rods determine what they can augment based on spell level rather than slot level. I think that the scenario presented is slightly unrealistic (that a character would prefer to use a 7th-9th level spell slot to cast a 3rd level spell with 4 to 6 levels worth of (non-Heighten spell) Metamagic applied to it and then use a Lesser Rod to layer even more metamagic on), but I admit that it could be done, and that for certain (very specific) spells it could be imbalanced.
I do think that the potential balance issue could be easily corrected by having Rods determine their effects based off of the slot they augment rather than the spell.
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Aye, a +4 weapon is a serious destructive item in the right hands. Bypassing most DR is just the tip of the iceberg...
Actually level 10 is usually more then half the game. The higher levels tend to fly by quicker since the opponents draft more xp. Unless you slow down for item crafting, of course...you still need 35 days to imbue that Quicken rod you're making, and is the rest of the party waiting around while you do that?
If you're playing an AP, odds are this is NOT going to work unless the DM hands you a ton of downtime. Most AP's take place over fairly short periods of time. You don't get a month of downtime to make your Rod, so you have to buy it...you've literally no choice in the matter, and that delays even longer the time it takes for this trick to become a killer.
The Quicken trick with a sorc is indeed a delay thing...it's a full round action to apply metas for a sorc, so unless the Sorc has the Quicken feat and uses it to make his spell a standard action while the Rod makes a second one a swift action, doing this is liable to get interrupted.
==Aelryinth
Most of the AP's actually do have gaps between books that allow time for crafting.
A +4 weapon at 10th level is going to add at best 20 points of damage
At the absolute, best case scenario, hasted two weapon fighter who hits on every attack.
More realistically it will be roughly +20% to hit with between 8 and 12 extra damage.
Nice, but it really doesn't compare to having a quickened spell 3/day without having to prepare the spell slot.
Now if you make it so it modifies based on slot level rather than spell level, you can make a better case for it, but I still say it is under priced for what it does when you consider an unmodified caster level 10 fireball is going to do 35 damage in a round, so three times a day a caster can basically at 35 fire damage to a spell for the same price as a +4 weapon.
15th level half-orc red dragon sorcerer: "I am become death."
Two-weapon falcata fighter: "Now we are all sons of bìtches."
Bonus points if the Quicken rod is smelted from pitchblende.
How could nobody get that quote??? I am disappoint.
A +4 weapon at 10th level is going to add at best 20 points of damage
At the absolute, best case scenario, hasted two weapon fighter who hits on every attack.
More realistically it will be roughly +20% to hit with between 8 and 12 extra damage.
I disagree with you on this point. A +4 weapon's ability to not only allow you to hit more often (an important point often overlooked!), but its ability to bypass DR as well will, in effect, mean you are doing far more than an additional 20 damage from before.
How could nobody get that quote??? I am disappoint.15th level half-orc red dragon sorcerer: "I am become death."
Two-weapon falcata fighter: "Now we are all sons of bìtches."
Bonus points if the Quicken rod is smelted from pitchblende.
It's a quote from those scientist guys who developed the nuclear bomb.
I learned that from Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles. :P
Most of the AP's actually do have gaps between books that allow time for crafting.
Other than Kingmaker, which ones? Some might, but I don't think it is the norm.
Other than Kingmaker, which ones? Some might, but I don't think it is the norm.
Most of the AP's actually do have gaps between books that allow time for crafting.
I know there aren't any in Second Darkness. There's a gap between books 1 & 2 of Legacy of Fire, I know, but PCs are 4th or 5th level then. I'm told there are gaps between books in RotRL, but I'm playing in that game so I don't know exactly.
How could nobody get that quote??? I am disappoint.15th level half-orc red dragon sorcerer: "I am become death."
Two-weapon falcata fighter: "Now we are all sons of bìtches."
Bonus points if the Quicken rod is smelted from pitchblende.
Julius Robert Oppenheimer, partially misquoting the Bhagavad Gita, after the Trinity nuclear test.
EDIT: the "I am become death" don't think te "b.." part is from J.R.O.
Savage Tide has some down time, as I recall, but Age of Worms does not.
Legacy of Fire has downtime at low level, as mentioned above. I'm not sure about Rise of the Runelords.
Serpent's Skull has a sandbox at 9-13, but there's things to do, and as you accomplish them the scene advances. Having uninterrupted time is completely DM fiat...and I'd personally have the rest of the crew out adventuring while you craft the Rod, because that's only fair.
No downtime at all in Carrion Crown. You're on a chase, and looks like you'll be going from 1st to 16th inside of 2-3 months.
==Aelryinth
Off topic more than a bit: I think the best solution to crappy magic item economics and players running above WBL would be giving each character another resource.
If all items have drawn from inner spiritual power, that could be level based and fixed. This power could fuel only certain amount of items of set maximum power. The items would require certain investment, which could set their maximum power to which they can grow, but otherwise they'd be locked with wielder's spiritual reserves. The specific enchantments could then be used to grant alternative powers, like flaming. If the items had minimal user levels or worked to a lesser extent for low level characters it could help to keep power creep in check IMO.
On paper, in principle, I like this notion a lot!
In implementations I've found or tried to build, I find that this almost always bogs down and bloats into a resource tracking system that takes more time to manage than running the rest of the game.
...
Back on-topic, I can see the validity of complaints of imbalance that Metamagic Rods determine what they can augment based on spell level rather than slot level. I think that the scenario presented is slightly unrealistic (that a character would prefer to use a 7th-9th level spell slot to cast a 3rd level spell with 4 to 6 levels worth of (non-Heighten spell) Metamagic applied to it and then use a Lesser Rod to layer even more metamagic on), but I admit that it could be done, and that for certain (very specific) spells it could be imbalanced.
I do think that the potential balance issue could be easily corrected by having Rods determine their effects based off of the slot they augment rather than the spell.
If I was to keep it simple it *could* be just a bonus/level table with separate columns for ability bonus, weapon/armour/shield bonus, save/natural armour bonus and bonus spells/modifiable spell level.
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Savage Tide has some down time, as I recall, but Age of Worms does not.
Legacy of Fire has downtime at low level, as mentioned above. I'm not sure about Rise of the Runelords.
Serpent's Skull has a sandbox at 9-13, but there's things to do, and as you accomplish them the scene advances. Having uninterrupted time is completely DM fiat...and I'd personally have the rest of the crew out adventuring while you craft the Rod, because that's only fair.
No downtime at all in Carrion Crown. You're on a chase, and looks like you'll be going from 1st to 16th inside of 2-3 months.
==Aelryinth
RoTRL has multiple gaps for significant downtime written in.
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Otherwise...
Ah, so you are doing it deliberately.
Good to know that you aren't just misguided.-Kle.
I'm sorry, I didn't really "General Discussion" didn't encompass, you know, General Discussion.
I realize you have a of free time, so maybe you can go post by post and create more subcategories, maybe make a spread sheet?
If you want to discuss the topic, by all means do so.
Otherwise stop trolling.