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I find most of the illos of Seltyiel in the APG are as much if not way more sexualized than the female iconic illos in the APG, see pages 213 & 242. The guy rocks teh sexy.
I started to list the 20 or so APG illos that had male flesh exposure, but honestly, not going to change the minds of people who go through the effort to think PF art is too much. Keep it where it is, Paizo. You're doing fine.
IMHO, the point is not "as long as there is an equal number of sexualized male and female images it's fine".
The point is sense. How Seltyiel and Seoni are dressed is in their character, and the game does not depicts males and females both in that way only.
So it's fine for me.
Two things.
1) .... I am aware that Molthune would attack chest revealing Nirmathian women as well as soldiers, but wouldn't they also attack half naked men? Same for the Andorean picture, why not a brigade of women charging led by a shirtless man? Sure it's inspired by a real picture, but who's to say you can't change it? And while Conan is quite nearly nude, Conan isn't an Iconic or part of Pathfinder, so bringing him up is a non-point. The degree to which men and women are show in revealing clothing is most certainly not equal.
2) I feel like you're being dismissive of something that I think is rather serious. I know that Pathfinder isn't realistic, but that's not the issue and by bringing it up I feel like you're just trying to muddy the water around the actual issue of sexualization of art. Maybe I'm reading you wrong and if I am I apologize, but I feel like you don't think that the art is sexual and you're hiding your opinion behind that of women who agree with you, like your wife (who sounds awesome, btw) and acting like that should end the issue because two women say it's not too bad. Again, if I'm reading wrong I apologize, but I feel like you're not treating this issue with the thought it deserves.
I still love Pathfinder though!
1)I think the point he was trying to make was, if you are offended by the fantasy art, you are being offended by "real" art as well. Art based on real life and existing dress styles. If you find such things offensive, then maybe the art in the books isn't your "cup of tea" and they are okay with losing a few customers if that is the customers stance. The other point was, they aren't doing anything that hasn't been done before and are actually being more conservative than existing fantasy art.
2) I don't think he is being dismissive. He is stating the belief of the company, that they are comfortable with the art being published (or else it wouldn't be in the book obviously) and that it will be this way regardless of how certain vocal posters feel about the subject. He is actually being very polite and infomative, letting you know if you have genuine problem with the art in the books that they are okay with losing the customer over it.
In effect he's stated they won't be moved by your(in a general sense) being offended or dislike of the art. And that is something I can respect the company for, I believe it is a good thing. If you want to feel that is being dismissive, it is a public forum on the internet after all, it is your right. It is one of those little things in life in which you have to realize that your opinion doesn't bear weight on. But with you last comment, I don't think it is a deal breaker for you ;)
I like boobs, a lot, but are boobs worth it to alienate possible future players who are only turned off by the unnecessarily sexual art?
Totally! The alienating stuff is a reward in itself. :P
It makes me wonder though, does sex really sell? Never in my life have I picked up an RPG and wanted to play it because it featured women with revealing clothes. Is there anyone out there who has? Really, I'm asking, it's not rhetorical.
No, but it doesn't hurt, either. If everything else is the same, more boobs tend to be better. Especially since we're not talking about anything immodest really. You see women wearing outfits that are just as revealing in real life. Or even more so - the Pathfinder pics aren't actually topless.
If the books didn't contain pictures of outfits, I'd wonder why that is so. It's an everyday part of life, so why do they leave it out? That's always a bad sign for me, as it's quite possible that someone is playing modesty police. And who knows what else that person wants to decide for me? No thanks.
None of the female APG Iconics aren't wearing something revealing and none of them have proportions less than voluptuous. I understand this is a fantasy world, but just who's fantasy is it?
You make it sound as if there were hundreds of female iconics in there. It's actually just three.
And whose fantasy is it? I'd say everyone's. I think the desire to be better-looking is quite widespread among both sexes. It's not just guys thinking "I wish women would look better". Just like those characters are often smarter, stronger, faster, and more agile than the people playing them, they are often prettier, too.
Now, the blind Oracle might not be able to see what she's wearing, but then again how would she be able to arrange her clothes for the maximum boob revealing in the first place? (Obviously the answer is magic)
I'm not sure, but I think that blind people can dress themselves in real world, too, and that includes revealing clothing. Since I don't know any blind people personally this is pretty much all guesswork, but my gut says that I'm right.
Remember that the same oracle is able to cast spells at enemies. Properly adjusting clothing should be no problem.
The Inquisitor, possibly the most conservative character class (along with the Paladin)
We must be talking about different classes here. Inquisitors get to ignore many of their church's rules and conventions. That's not what I'd call conservative.
Plus, they're skill monkeys with 6+ skill points and all the social skills as class skills - including bluff - which points to a tendency of extroversion.
Historically speaking the Witch is connected with sex and sexuality, but they're also connected with ugly crones who have warts. This would have been a perfect opportunity to have an older female Iconic, equivalent to the Wizard or the Summoner, but instead we have a scantily clad young looking woman with white hair.
The senior citizen thing has been done. Ezren is an old man. Frankly, the whole "arcanists should be old farts" thing is silly and I'm happy Pathfinder doesn't overdo it.
Why would the iconic be someone ugly with warts? To reinforce the "witches are ugly old women" stereotype? Might as well put her in a gingerbread house and feed her children, too.
On a somewhat related, but slightly different note, where are all the sexy guys?
I'm not into guys, but I've read female and gay male posters write about their favourites among the iconics. Seems they are sexies among the iconics.
Plus, trouser bulges will be along together with cameltoes or not at all :P
Everyone's definition of "unnecessarily" is going to be different. We've found a level that we're comfortable with, and I don't think we plan on changing it because some people think we're showing too much.
So what you're saying is that you won't increase the level of cheesecake if we say the current level is too low?
Damn!
Or of the Andoran picture with the charge being led by General Chest Revealer
Yeah, I always wondered about that. Why aren't her boobs exposed like on the original painting that inspired this? (The original is called "Liberty Leading the People") Why must Pathfinder "clean up" classical paintings?
I guess it's because of the American thing. The original painting is French, and the French aren't as prude.
why would the blind woman and the religious conservative being revealing so much?
The blind woman is an oracle. They're charisma-based. So the arguments that go for sorcerers go for oracles, too.
And, again, inquisitors couldn't be further away from being conservative.
Same for the Andorean picture, why not a brigade of women charging led by a shirtless man? Sure it's inspired by a real picture, but who's to say you can't change it?
Because I wrote the art order for the Andoran book, and there were two pieces of art that were supposed to remind viewers of historical Earth art (Liberty Leading the People, and Washington Crossing the Delaware), and I wanted to evoke the feeling of those images.
FYI, here's part of my write-up of the Liberty picture in the Andoran AO:
In the APG not a single Iconic male shows any skin (besides face and hands) while the women are just bursting out of their clothes.
It's all about making sense, I guess. The long coat makes a lot of sense for the alchemist, a cavalier needs to wear heavy metal, and the summoner is a gnome - that alone would say everything, but this one is actually manifesting his imaginary friend. Really weird robes make sense.
Sure it's inspired by a real picture, but who's to say you can't change it?
The fact that it's supposed to be an homage to the original. Change too much and it's no longer that.
How hard would it be to get that EPUB to work as a print on demand book like I mentioned earlier?
I did not notice you mentioning that before. If I had, I might have mentioned something about it.
I imagine it would not be too difficult. There are several services set up for that kind of thing. I guess I'd just need to find one with agreeable terms that takes file formats I would find relatively easy to produce, so if I do create those EPUBs at some point I'll look into setting up some kind of print-on-demand.
Considering the print-on-demand would be something done entirely for the benefit of others, but the EPUB format would be for my own benefit and sharing it wouldn't really cost me any additional effort, I'd probably make the EPUBs available for free and charge a slight markup to make me feel compensated for my time for the print-on-demand. Of course, the PRD is all OGL, so if it turns out that a decent print-on-demand service provider takes EPUBs you could very easily set up your own printing and probably save yourself some money; no hard feelings from me if you did. It's all hypothetical at this point, though, because I don't have the time at present to bother even making EPUBs for myself. I've got a lot of coding, article writing, invoicing, and bureaucracy to deal with right now, and may not be caught up for a month. We'll see.
At this time we do not have plans to release the Pathfinder RPG line as ePubs, simply because our products have things like tables and sidebars that cannot be accurately laid out in that format (or at least in a way that is comparable to our PDFs). If we were going to do them, it would take some time to evaluate what functions the format would serve, how best to lay them out, and what features would be available to make them viable as a stand alone product.
Thanks for the information. The tables were the one thing I had in the back of my head as a possible problem, really -- and might require some nontrivial reformatting work. Sidebars should be reasonably easy to format as offset notes within an EPUB, I would think, but maybe I'm overlooking something. I don't really think it's all that big a deal to make the format comparable to the PDFs, of course; the important thing for an EPUB is to make it lightweight and easy to read, which means avoiding things like two-column page formats, images with text wrapped around them (or images at all if they can be avoided), and so on.
I totally understand if it's just not considered worthwhile to pursue the option right now, given whatever business concerns might apply that I don't see as a customer. I just think EPUB versions would not be too difficult to offer once the publication process was set up to handle them. It'd be more of an up-front investment in nailing down a good way to incorporate that into your publishing process than an ongoing difficulty, I think. I'm just some outsider looking in, though, so obviously I might be missing something.
Again, thanks for the reply.
I'm not really qualified to comment on what products we do or do not publish, but I would like to request that this thread not turn into one of those several-hundred-post pile-on/flamewars about sexuality, modesty, morality or the way people choose to raise their own children.
200+ posts,
alas maybe next time
I'm not really qualified to comment on what products we do or do not publish, but I would like to request that this thread not turn into one of those several-hundred-post pile-on/flamewars about sexuality, modesty, morality or the way people choose to raise their own children.200+ posts,
alas maybe next time
At least it appears to be a fairly civil one as these things go..
I do not share the OP's opinion and find that many people do want to see female characters that are pleasant to look at that seems to go for female players I know in particular, male players seem to be more impressed with art that looks 'cool' rather than sexy. This might be different in the US in particular.
I think paizo struck a decent balance with the occasional art that shift a bit to either side of the balance, it fits nicely with their more realistic and gritty approach to fantasy gaming in general, in my opinion at least.
I am not going to post or read anymore here, but thanks to the OP, Gary and others biting their tongue to keep this thread civil.
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It seems like everybody likes to talk about controversial stuff, but nobody wants to be the one who started the moral conversation. In that context, the post count here makes a lot of sense.
I for one am very glad this thread exists. SKR strode through the arguing masses like a bare-chested Liberty, canon in hand, and went off; and I learned some things I otherwise probably would not have.
This thread has an interesting subject being discussed, dev opinions/knowledge, and sporadic links to nude art. It's a shame that it may someday end.
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Let me just say this because I don't think I was clear enough:
I am in no way personally offended by the art for Pathfinder or by art featuring the revealed female form.
To paraphase Oscar Wilde, Art is either good or bad, not moral or immoral. I think the art for Pathfinder is great and Wayne Renyolds is a fantastic artist with a great eye for the female (and male) form.
My problem is that I feel like there is a non-insignificant number of people out there who too easily dismiss the idea that sometimes women are depicted with more of a sexual slant than men and that in some of those cases the sexual slant is perhaps unnecessary. That's all. I've had a few female friends complain about it to me and I know that they wouldn't have something to say about it if it weren't a real issue.
The only reason I keep posting about the subject is that there is some serious defensiveness going on and a lot of people seem unwilling to admit that maybe, just maybe, there might be something to this.
Hey Sean,
I'm really amused by your post, especially the part about the Andoran pic being inspired by another work.
That is exactly the kind of context that makes the difference for pics like this, and I was lacking it. And the importance of context was more or less my only point.
As I said at the outset, I don't think there is a huge problem — the challenge for me is making female players recognize the context. Just as I don't recognize the homage to an older painting, so too do they not recognize that sexiness is not mandatory in PCs. Given the right context, all might be reconciled. I promise to work harder to notice things like you posted if you guys promise to keep context as you have.
And also, the Nirmathas pic came off as silly, not sympathetic, but a whole product line should not be judged by one instance of art.
It makes me wonder though, does sex really sell? Never in my life have I picked up an RPG and wanted to play it because it featured women with revealing clothes. Is there anyone out there who has? Really, I'm asking, it's not rhetorical.No, but it doesn't hurt, either. If everything else is the same, more boobs tend to be better. Especially since we're not talking about anything immodest really. You see women wearing outfits that are just as revealing in real life. Or even more so - the Pathfinder pics aren't actually topless.
If the books didn't contain pictures of outfits, I'd wonder why that is so. It's an everyday part of life, so why do they leave it out? That's always a bad sign for me, as it's quite possible that someone is playing modesty police. And who knows what else that person wants to decide for me? No thanks.
Here's the problem though, it does hurt. I have had two people (both women) independent of each other turn down playing in a Pathfinder game as they were turned off by the art. Now you and I might find that ridiculous (as I said to them at the time), but if these people, who I know to be thoughtful and reasonable people turned away from something because of the art then perhaps there might be something to that.
I'm not saying that it shouldn't contain pictures of outfits, I'm not even saying that some of them shouldn't be revealing, so acting like that is the issue is setting up a straw man. And no one is playing modesty police (well at least I'm not), I've said multiple times that I don't mind art that has sexiness, but it's got to make sense in context. For example: why the Inquisitor would wear a breastplate and have nothing underneath to prevent chaffing the breast area doesn't make sense, it's just an excuse for some boobage (that breastplate must offer some serious support because she looks like she's baking two loaves of bread in there!). I'm 100% in favor of awesome boobs so long as it makes sense within the context and in that and just a few other instances I don't feel that it does. And even though the Oracle is a heavy charisma using class, they're also one that can wear medium armor so I don't think it makes much sense that she'd be adventuring without it.
And even though the Oracle is a heavy charisma using class, they're also one that can wear medium so I don't think it makes much sense that she'd be adventuring without it.
She's a dexy lady.
Hey Sean,
I'm really amused by your post, especially the part about the Andoran pic being inspired by another work.
That is exactly the kind of context that makes the difference for pics like this, and I was lacking it. And the importance of context was more or less my only point.
As I said at the outset, I don't think there is a huge problem — the challenge for me is making female players recognize the context. Just as I don't recognize the homage to an older painting, so too do they not recognize that sexiness is not mandatory in PCs. Given the right context, all might be reconciled. I promise to work harder to notice things like you posted if you guys promise to keep context as you have.
And also, the Nirmathas pic came off as silly, not sympathetic, but a whole product line should not be judged by one instance of art.
+1
But you're probably sick of being associated in any way with me :)
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And even though the Oracle is a heavy charisma using class, they're also one that can wear medium so I don't think it makes much sense that she'd be adventuring without it.She's a dexy lady.
She's wearing glamered +2 breastplate, or she has instant armor ready, kthnxbai.
Stop using the word "realism" in game about teleporting across dimensions and summoning pit fiends out of air, mmkay?
And even though the Oracle is a heavy charisma using class, they're also one that can wear medium so I don't think it makes much sense that she'd be adventuring without it.She's a dexy lady.
I actually laughed out loud at that. Now all I can hear in my head is "Superfreak".
"She's a very dexy girl..."
And even though the Oracle is a heavy charisma using class, they're also one that can wear medium so I don't think it makes much sense that she'd be adventuring without it.She's a dexy lady.She's wearing glamered +2 breastplate, kthnxbai.
Stop using the word "realism" in game about teleporting across dimensions and summoning pit fiends out of air, mmkay?
Also an acceptable answer.
I'm not using the word "realism," I'm using the words "makes sense" between which there is a world of difference. A world where you can summon pit fiends and travel to other dimensions in fact...
She's wearing glamered +2 breastplate, or she has instant armor ready, kthnxbai.Stop using the word "realism" in game about teleporting across dimensions and summoning pit fiends out of air, mmkay?
ALMOST right.
Internal consistence of the gameworld can dictate how much successful is a game.
Said this, in this specific case you are 100% right. Moreover, iconic are not optimized, and if one is proficient with an armor, does not automatically wears it, at least all the times. Valeros has not a full plate, but in this way remember us better Madmartigan.
Hey Sean,
I'm really amused by your post, especially the part about the Andoran pic being inspired by another work.
That is exactly the kind of context that makes the difference for pics like this, and I was lacking it. And the importance of context was more or less my only point.
As I said at the outset, I don't think there is a huge problem — the challenge for me is making female players recognize the context. Just as I don't recognize the homage to an older painting, so too do they not recognize that sexiness is not mandatory in PCs. Given the right context, all might be reconciled. I promise to work harder to notice things like you posted if you guys promise to keep context as you have.
And also, the Nirmathas pic came off as silly, not sympathetic, but a whole product line should not be judged by one instance of art.
For others, equally unaware of which picture Sean is referring to (unless I read things wrong): La liberté guidant le peuple by Eugène Delacroix.
Incidentally, if I'd gotten to do the art-order for my Milani-article in Wayfinder 3, it'd have been "a cross between the Statue of Liberty and Delacroix's Liberty on the Barricades." ;)
So does Golarion have a "lady liberty"? And is she depicted in exactly the same way that she is depicted within our world?
Jiggy: Anyone offended by Seoni's dress or Alhandra's outfit should probably steer clear of beaches, swimming pools, the Internet, formal ballrooms, James Bond movies, beauty pageants, the magazine covers in the check-out aisle as the super market, prime-time television...
Wow, so judgmental. It's his family, after all.
Here's the problem though, it does hurt. I have had two people (both women) independent of each other turn down playing in a Pathfinder game as they were turned off by the art. Now you and I might find that ridiculous (as I said to them at the time), but if these people, who I know to be thoughtful and reasonable people turned away from something because of the art then perhaps there might be something to that.
They're obviously not reasonable in everything.
It's a fact that they can't help but offend someone. Right now, some people are offended because they think the art is too sexy. If they do the ultra-conservative thing, people will be offended because nobody likes the "morals police".
Sure, they can go a middle way, but chances are that it will be bland and, and fans will run away in troves.
I've said multiple times that I don't mind art that has sexiness, but it's got to make sense in context. For example: why the Inquisitor would wear a breastplate and have nothing underneath to prevent chaffing the breast area doesn't make sense, it's just an excuse for some boobage (that breastplate must offer some serious support because she looks like she's baking two loaves of bread in there!).
Maybe it's just my being the apologiser for Paizo, but to me it looks as if she was wearing something underneath.
And even though the Oracle is a heavy charisma using class, they're also one that can wear medium armor so I don't think it makes much sense that she'd be adventuring without it.
Nonsense. Just because they can wear medium armour doesn't mean they have to. There is more than one way to play a class.
Plus, she comes from Rahadoum. Do you know what they call people wearing medium armour in Rahadoum? Heatstroke victims.
Plus, she's a flame oracle. They're dervishes. Not the warrior-cleric type of priest, but a blaster. Those tend to be dex-based and don't want to be tied down by armour.
And even though the Oracle is a heavy charisma using class, they're also one that can wear medium so I don't think it makes much sense that she'd be adventuring without it.She's a dexy lady.
I read that as "sexy lady"!
I just wanted to add that the main reason I got into Pathfinder after playing 1E 2E for many years was by picking up the book and seeing the amazing art.
I now own every Paizo title for Pathfinder.
Out of curiosity, was it specifically clevage that attracted you or the overall high quality of the art?
Here's the problem though, it does hurt. I have had two people (both women) independent of each other turn down playing in a Pathfinder game as they were turned off by the art. Now you and I might find that ridiculous (as I said to them at the time), but if these people, who I know to be thoughtful and reasonable people turned away from something because of the art then perhaps there might be something to that.They're obviously not reasonable in everything.
It's a fact that they can't help but offend someone. Right now, some people are offended because they think the art is too sexy. If they do the ultra-conservative thing, people will be offended because nobody likes the "morals police".
Sure, they can go a middle way, but chances are that it will be bland and, and fans will run away in troves.
At this point were quibbling about something that neither of us are going to change our minds about regarding the specific examples I brought up. There is a whole slew of speculative BS we can throw at each other about characters about why they are or aren't wearing clothes. But I've got to hammer this home for you, all the objections I and the people who have spoken to me have are not moral. Perhaps you're not directing that towards me, but I just want to make that clear.
Also, I think you meant droves rather than troves. Unless they're running away towards treasure :)
conflict is a part of life not to get to existential on you. so using pathfinder you can describe it any way you want we all have the number guy in our groups who just says "I hit for 24 damage" and we have the descriptive dm who says" the longsword pierces the vertebrata of your foe he gasps his last breath as he stares into your eyes you see a tear for his kids who will now not know the love of a father" it is up to you. am I making my self understood? also i only have a one year old and a wife at this point. so the book covers are really for me and her now so she can get started because we know "a couple who games together stays together"
i do think it is funny that people are assuming a bunch of things about me. and i am not offended just perplexed that it is such a big...
And sex isn't? Or any nonharmful sexual act, such as being a bit tittilated by a tight figure? Personally, I'm all for the "Make love, not war" motto. I'd rather live in a world where expression of love, pleasure, and intimacy is dominant than a world of deadly conflict, hatred, and horrifying violence.
Besides, flesh-revealing clothing isn't that bad to kids, as long as you don't associate it with the desire for sex or make such a huge deal out of it. If my 10 year old son sees a naked lady and can shrug at it, job well done. If his mind is forced to think of it as "naughty, bad, sex, arousal", then, yeah, I think I'll have to censor things from him until he understands better of how to think of the human body in its natural state.
Just my two cents.
At this point were quibbling about something that neither of us are going to change our minds about regarding the specific examples I brought up. There is a whole slew of speculative BS we can throw at each other about characters about why they are or aren't wearing clothes. But I've got to hammer this home for you, all the objections I and the people who have spoken to me have are not moral. Perhaps you're not directing that towards me, but I just want to make that clear.
Also, I think you meant droves rather than troves. Unless they're running away towards treasure :)
[Spelling Nazi]Nein, es ist geschrieben "we're!"[/Spelling Nazi]
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Out of curiosity, was it specifically clevage that attracted you or the overall high quality of the art?I just wanted to add that the main reason I got into Pathfinder after playing 1E 2E for many years was by picking up the book and seeing the amazing art.
I now own every Paizo title for Pathfinder.
The quality of the art is what attracted me.But more cleavage = win.
Kirth, you came out with this when we discussed about Vital Strike, too. You REALLY hate big swords :PYes, I do! It's a personal pet peeve, no more or less ridiculous than being offended by the costumes, and I admit it freely and without reservation. In terms of mechanics, though, I think the game weighs too heavily in favor of them, and that does bug me a bit. For the art, it's not just the barbarian girl; check out Orik in PF#1 (IIRC) -- dude's bastard sword is longer than he is tall.
Yeah, but he also brings the awsome, so surely you can forgive him that right?
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Weird question, but am I alone in wanting to see nudes in pathfinder artwork.
Before I go on, I am not asking paizo to change anything, nor do I expect them too, but I am interested to know if I am the only one who feels that nudity along with a slightly more frank dealing with themes of sex, relationships, love,and lust within pathfinder products would be a welcome thing. Classical art and myth, as well as good chunk of fiction from through out the ages has included theses things. Seeing Pathfinder as a product really fairly squarely aimed at adults, it seems incongruous that these subjects are avoided.
I mean, I am old enough to drink, vote and make informed decisions. Genitalia do not offend me, nude studies are among many of my favourite works of art, and I can see the odd one fitting well into Pathfinder products. In the same vain, I can see stories about, lust, sex and bigotry being an interesting and vibrant addition to the Pallet used by in the pathfinder adventure paths and modules.
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Weird question, but am I alone in wanting to see nudes in pathfinder artwork.
Before I go on, I am not asking paizo to change anything, nor do I expect them too, but I am interested to know if I am the only one who feels that nudity along with a slightly more frank dealing with themes of sex, relationships, love,and lust within pathfinder products would be a welcome thing. Classical art and myth, as well as good chunk of fiction from through out the ages has included theses things. Seeing Pathfinder as a product really fairly squarely aimed at adults, it seems incongruous that these subjects are avoided.
I mean, I am old enough to drink, vote and make informed decisions. Genitalia do not offend me, nude studies are among many of my favourite works of art, and I can see the odd one fitting well into Pathfinder products. In the same vain, I can see stories about, lust, sex and bigotry being an interesting and vibrant addition to the Pallet used by in the pathfinder adventure paths and modules.
I wouldn't have a problem with that kind of art as long as it fit. Like if the location was a whore house or such. Or even if the society didn't have topless taboo's in some hot dry climates etc.
From page one of this thread:
I'm not really qualified to comment on what products we do or do not publish, but I would like to request that this thread not turn into one of those several-hundred-post pile-on/flamewars about sexuality, modesty, morality or the way people choose to raise their own children.
Back to the original topic, please-and-thank-you.
. Or even if the society didn't have topless taboo's in some hot dry climates etc.
Like most beaches in Australia.
If you don't like a lot of skin being shown don't visit the warmer states, do not go night clubbing and definitely don't come to Sydney during gay and lesbian mardi gras.... The topless dikes on bikes and the marching boys probably would not be to your taste.
I dont have a problem with it it's all a lot of fun and spectacular to watch.
I wouldn't have a problem with that kind of art as long as it fit. Like if the location was a whore house or such. Or even if the society didn't have topless taboo's in some hot dry climates etc.
The most likely publication I could see something like this fitting in would be one of those that specifically deals with Golarion. Perhaps one that examines the interactions between particular religious sects, such as Calistrians, and how they are viewed in both secular and cosmopolitan circles.
Even so, as a CYA I'd think that even a tasteful, artistic treatment of such topics would still be a sensitive enough topic that it would pretty much have to be a non-subscription product. With no disrespect intended to anyone, I could realistically see the unexpected arrival of such a product in some households causing quite a ruckus. There could easily be a backlash against the subscribing member of the household.
Edit: Upon further reflection, it would be interesting to see the views of Calistria's followers contrasted against those of Shelyn and Desna (among others). (I've certainly done so to a good extent in my own homebrew.) However, one thing that I've noticed is that even though there are many controversial points that have come up over the years (i.e. the paladin in Sandpoint), it seems like Paizo's preference is to allow individual GMs to determine what it means for the game world rather than assigning value judgments themselves.
To that end, I'd say there would be a certain risk to how they tried to portray such topics. For instance, if whore houses and temples to Calistria are the main areas of such treatment, then readers might reach certain inferences depending on how their own culture views such locations, etc. I'm not going to speculate on the risk vs. reward for Paizo and its community, just noting that this would in fact be something that would be a likely consideration from a business standpoint.
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I can't imagine a "sanitized" Vampire or Werewolf. It just wouldn't be the same game.
Personally... I don't see the artwork as overly sexy or scandalous in Pathfinder... but World of Darkness books... THOSE are chock full of graphic nudity and prolific swearing... Which doesn't add ANYTHING to the rules or gameplay that I bought them for.If they offered PG versions of THOSE I'd be absolutely ecstatic!
It's called Twilight.
So are we going to edit out all of those "over sexual" immages of shirtless warriors with ripped abbs and swashbuckers with open shirts and tight pants?
Or just the girls need burkas?
Apparently those pictures arent as sexual as a bit of exposed cleavage and or leg. Because women (and gay guys)dont get as uncontrollably turned on by shirtless d00ds with ripped abs and what not.
According to one of the posters here the only thing that is the equivalent is a bulging package on a guy. I wonder if he's taking into account lesbians who might like the cheescake as well or the women (and again, the gay guys) who might appreciate the pictures of the male characters here.Because if some woman or gay guy is looking at a character as nothing but some bulging pecs and tight abs, then that' objectification too. But I'm thinking that maybe in this argument that it doesnt count because it's d00ds?
Andrew R and ShinHakkaider, your comments completely fail to address what I feel are valid issues. Thanks for comparing me to a puritanical regime that I abhor.
I feel that the art only becomes a problem when it starts driving players off from the game. Some amount of this is inevitable, yes, like KaeYoss says. But the girls I game with are not exactly repressed — they just react badly to a small number of very specific pieces, ones where I feel they have a point.
Anyway, this thread is hopelessly derailed I guess. I'm out.
Andrew R and ShinHakkaider, your comments completely fail to address what I feel are valid issues. Thanks for comparing me to a puritanical regime that I abhor.
I feel that the art only becomes a problem when it starts driving players off from the game. Some amount of this is inevitable, yes, like KaeYoss says. But the girls I game with are not exactly repressed — they just react badly to a small number of very specific pieces, ones where I feel they have a point.
Anyway, this thread is hopelessly derailed I guess. I'm out.
I wasnt even responding to you. The things that I referenced in terms of "bulging pants" and what not were in response to Robert's post further up thread. SoI wasnt comparing you to anything.
To get right down to it, I dont think your points are valid at all. If I opened up a White Wolf Book and saw a picture of Sambo being stomped to death by a group of white guys. Would I get offended? Sure, but I'd try to find out what the context of that picture is first before I put down the book. I probably wouldn't buy or look at the book again after that, but that's my right to vote with my wallet and my feet. Just like it's the publishers right to include that picture in the book regardless of the context. I'm certain that there's a huge group of people who would come out and say that I'm being over sensitive and that I was playing the race card and I should just "get over it" but in the end I'M making a choice not to support a game that I find offensive.
The same applies to your friends. They SHOULD walk away if they're offended. That's the end of story. Making an appeal to Paizo to bend over backwards to change something that they (meaning Paizo) dont find offensive is a waste of time.
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I think I'll ask some friend of mine to make a new thread about how he wants pretty much the same thing due to his wife being a devout Muslim and ANY revealing female dress is a no-go for her. Not just oversexualized boobies.
I'm pretty bloody curious if that will get the same level of support, back-patting, appreciation and care from the forum dwellers as the Christian gentleman who started this thread.
The forest has gotten lost among the trees.
To get right down to it, I dont think your points are valid at all. If I opened up a White Wolf Book and saw a picture of Sambo being stomped to death by a group of white guys. Would I get offended? Sure, but I'd try to find out what the context of that picture is first before I put down the book. I probably wouldn't buy or look at the book again after that, but that's my right to vote with my wallet and my feet. Just like it's the publishers right to include that picture in the book regardless of the context. I'm certain that there's a huge group of people who would come out and say that I'm being over sensitive and that I was playing the race card and I should just "get over it" but in the end I'M making a choice not to support a game that I find offensive.The same applies to your friends. They SHOULD walk away if they're offended. That's the end of story. Making an appeal to Paizo to bend over backwards to change something that they (meaning Paizo) dont find offensive is a waste of time.
So wait, if you went to a great restaurant and they served one thing on your plate that you didn't like, would you ask (politely obviously) for something you do like instead or would you just walk out?
Paizo is first and foremost a business and pleasing customers is what a business does. When there is a problem (depending on how you view the situation) people should "make an appeal" to allow the business to decide if this is something that they will take under consideration, even if it's something they don't agree with. Giving a beloved business the opportunity to sell MORE copies of their book by making suggestions about how to get some hold outs interested is not a "waste of time" IMO.