|
I might be wrong, I don't play PFRPG but instead stick with 3.5. But I was under the impression that PFRPG still had things like disarm, grapple, as well as things like Merciful enhancements for weapons. I guess if those were indeed removed from PFRPG, then the only option left is killing everything you encounter. I mean, you don't even get xp for overcoming challenges anymore, right? Now it is only by killing things I guess.Still got story awards, fortunately.Oh. *scratches head*
Weird. Wait, the only way to move story forward is by killing things, right?
We prefer the term "petitionerize." "Kill" is a hateful word.
I'd still like to see an EPUB version with no images in it at all, by the way -- and not because I dislike the pictures, but because it'll load and work more smoothly on my Nook.
Just sayin' -- since I think this suggestion is much more productive than the vast majority of the rest of this discussion (even the parts with which I agree).
re: wives not having a problem with the art
My girlfriend (we've a more committed and meaningful relationship than most legally married couples I've met) actually pointed out this thread to me, remarking on the extreme approach the OP takes to censoring his own books. We find it odd, but I don't think that means there's a problem with someone wanting a cut-down version of the book -- especially because I'm pretty sure he'd be willing to pay for his copy.
It's kinda hard for me to tell, though, given the stream-of-consciousness "sentence" structure in his comments, making my eyes glaze over before I get halfway through one. I guess it's a personal failing of mine.
re: the difficulty of reformatting for EPUB
Yes, it would probably be a fair bit of work to rework a PDF layout to produce an EPUB document. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure someone at Paizo is maintaining pre-PDF text in digital records somewhere, in a form much more easily formatted for generating EPUB format. There might be a little trickery necessary for generating tables, but y'know, even HTML is easily enough translated to EPUB format with the right tools.
Speaking of which, if I ever find the time, I might end up just creating EPUBs from the PRD and offering them to the world. Unfortunately, that doesn't solve my problem where things like my AP subscription, my copy of the Inner Sea Guide, and other things that don't appear in the PRD are concerned.
I should also mention that I don't automatically equate "nudity" with "sex," but that might put me in a minority. When I get into the shower, I don't actually wear any clothes, but my purpose has nothing to do with any kind of fetish, and more to do with getting clean.
Neither do I. Nudity can can in artistic terms also represent chastity and virginity, see diana and actaeon.
I think have been on this ride before.... The thrills and spills are all the same.
I think have been on this ride before.... The thrills and spills are all the same.
That's what she said.
Okay, honestly, the art is fine. But increasingly my girlfriend rolls her eyes at it, which means that it isn't quite hitting the mark as far as making her want to play the game, and that should be the primary purpose of the art in game books. I think it needs to be rolled back just a bit.
One example of too far is in the Inner Sea guide (Nirmathas I think) there is a battle scene with a gratuitous cleavage shot in the foreground. I'm no puritan, but I find that inserting sexualized images into the wrong context detracts from my enjoyment of the game.
It seems to me that this is a recent increase, BTW. I'd be happy to return to an earlier level of sexuality in the artwork. For example, the same level of cleavage was totally appropriate in the opening pic for Pett's Bazaar article in Legacy of Fire. There may have been even more cheese that was called for in Pathdinder #5. And I'd never until recently had a problem with incongruous boobs in paizo art.
The message that cheesecake-without-context sends to girls that I game with is that their female characters will be hyper-sexualized by the male players because that is the assumption of the game world. I have a hard time getting the girls in my groups to play female characters at all (though not the reverse problem).
Anyway, it's not a moral outrage. I just think the target should be projecting images of women that make women want to adventure — not merely to titillate men, except where those things overlap. It's a fine line to be certain.
Obviously I'm male, and the only indication that I have that something's off-the-mark is the response I see from my female players.
I would suggest, however, that Pathfinder is pretty firmly structured so as to teach the lesson that the best way to deal with conflict is by murdering anyone we disagree with. If you change the game so that the best way to deal with conflict is to show someone the error of their ways WITHOUT killing them -- and have it so that you gain treasure and levels by NOT killing people -- then you'd be teaching non-violence. But you'd also not really be playing Pathfinder the way it's written.I might be wrong, I don't play PFRPG but instead stick with 3.5. But I was under the impression that PFRPG still had things like disarm, grapple, as well as things like Merciful enhancements for weapons. I guess if those were indeed removed from PFRPG, then the only option left is killing everything you encounter. I mean, you don't even get xp for overcoming challenges anymore, right? Now it is only by killing things I guess.
I know you're aware of the difference between "best" or "default" on the one hand, and "only" on the other. I know you think you're being clever and witty. It can get tiresome, though.
I know you're aware of the difference between "best" or "default" on the one hand, and "only" on the other. I know you think you're being clever and witty. It can get tiresome, though.I would suggest, however, that Pathfinder is pretty firmly structured so as to teach the lesson that the best way to deal with conflict is by murdering anyone we disagree with. If you change the game so that the best way to deal with conflict is to show someone the error of their ways WITHOUT killing them -- and have it so that you gain treasure and levels by NOT killing people -- then you'd be teaching non-violence. But you'd also not really be playing Pathfinder the way it's written.I might be wrong, I don't play PFRPG but instead stick with 3.5. But I was under the impression that PFRPG still had things like disarm, grapple, as well as things like Merciful enhancements for weapons. I guess if those were indeed removed from PFRPG, then the only option left is killing everything you encounter. I mean, you don't even get xp for overcoming challenges anymore, right? Now it is only by killing things I guess.
I just question how you define "best".
You seem to be defining your own method of preferred play style as best and anything else is not only not best but also "not really be playing Pathfinder the way it's written."
I just question how you define "best".
In the context of game play, it's more efficient, it provides you with more gear, and prevents you from having to fight the same enemy later on. Win all around. Don't get me wrong -- I'd be very much in favor of hard rules giving super-story-awards (extra xp, better gear, etc.) so that good-aligned PCs who DON'T kill all their enemies would be much better off (instead of break-even at best). But those rules aren't written into the game; they're included only by GM fiat.
Looking at the APs, the number of intelligent enemies who "surrender and make friends" with the PCs if defeated is less than the number who "fight to the death." In other words, the designers' default assumption is that you'll kill most of your enemies.
If you are honestly claiming that the default assumption in PF (as seen in the core rules and APs) is that few, if any, enemies will actually ever die, I'd like to see some support for that view (other than mentioning a small handful of inefficient nonlethal options, and ignoring the myriad ways to inflict death that are detailed).
I personally find PF very unsexy. Sure, Seoni is slightly, but that's one picture out of dozens. Compared to other editions of D&D (especially 1st edition, lol), there is nothing in PF. Also, I can't even have lunch at the mall without seeing more revealing outfits, IN REAL LIFE. And I haven't been able to edit real life, if I want to leave my house anyway.
So yeah, too funny, but I guess there are all kinds of people.
Btw Paizo, please don't change anything.
PS. I'm actually going to check out Faery's Tale Deluxe, out of interest.
re: the difficulty of reformatting for EPUBYes, it would probably be a fair bit of work to rework a PDF layout to produce an EPUB document. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure someone at Paizo is maintaining pre-PDF text in digital records somewhere, in a form much more easily formatted for generating EPUB format. There might be a little trickery necessary for generating tables, but y'know, even HTML is easily enough translated to EPUB format with the right tools.
Speaking of which, if I ever find the time, I might end up just creating EPUBs from the PRD and offering them to the world. Unfortunately, that doesn't solve my problem where things like my AP subscription, my copy of the Inner Sea Guide, and other things that don't appear in the PRD are concerned.
At this time we do not have plans to release the Pathfinder RPG line as ePubs, simply because our products have things like tables and sidebars that cannot be accurately laid out in that format (or at least in a way that is comparable to our PDFs). If we were going to do them, it would take some time to evaluate what functions the format would serve, how best to lay them out, and what features would be available to make them viable as a stand alone product.
This will get me laughed at, but with regards to the art, I find the super-giant monster swords to be more sexually suggestive than Seoni's decolletage. I mean, what exactly are these people trying to compensate for?
Glance at the iconic sorceress and you might think, "that costume looks inconvenient for running around in." Take one look at the iconic barbarian, though -- I can't take it seriously. "Ooh! My sword is so much bigger than yours!" Maybe there's some serious ladyboy fetishism there?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This will get me laughed at, but with regards to the art, I find the super-giant monster swords to be more sexually suggestive than Seoni's decolletage. I mean, what exactly are these people trying to compensate for?
Glance at the iconic sorceress and you might think, "that costume looks inconvenient for running around in." Take one look at the iconic barbarian, though -- I can't take it seriously. "Ooh! My sword is so much bigger than yours!" Maybe there's some serious ladyboy fetishism there?
Or you read Amiri's backstory and see that she claimed that sword from a frost giant she killed, and actually has penalties for using an oversized weapon, but continues to do so anyway because she is a badass.
People as a rule are entirely to PC and thin skinned... or are self conscious about what there own decisions are...
That's right. Some of us are quite thin-skinned. I, for example, winced when I read your "to" instead of "too" or your "there" instead of "their". ;P
If I say, I prefer no nudity in my game books... that does NOT mean that people who aren't offended are some kind of degenerates... However, I DO get offended by by people saying it BELONGS there, and to find a different game if I don't like it.
And I find it condescending if you want to take a game I like the way it is and force your opinions and your changes on the game, taking what I like away.
Well, not really, since your chances of babifying Pathfinder are pretty much zero, anyway, but since we're going round and round in a vicious circle of being affronted, I thought I might as well jump in and do the next round. ;-)
Likewise, whenever somebody starts a conversation with 'Country music SUCKS...' i don't take offense. i know it's awesome. Obviously this person is ill informed.
Sorry to go on-topic with your off-topic, but are we talking about the same stuff here? They tried to market it as a sleeping aid, but found it was more harmful than those pills? ;)
We prefer the term "petitionerize." "Kill" is a hateful word.
I prefer words that are more hatefull than "kill". Murderdeathkill. Murderise. Kill to death. Torture until it isn't fun any more. Slay.
The last one is the best of all. Slay. SLAY!
This will get me laughed at, but with regards to the art, I find the super-giant monster swords to be more sexually suggestive than Seoni's decolletage. I mean, what exactly are these people trying to compensate for?
Glance at the iconic sorceress and you might think, "that costume looks inconvenient for running around in." Take one look at the iconic barbarian, though -- I can't take it seriously. "Ooh! My sword is so much bigger than yours!" Maybe there's some serious ladyboy fetishism there?
An hero with a giant sword is not something unheard of. See Guts in Berserk.
If EVERY character had something like this would be silly, but I think is nice that Merisel has a thin blade and Amiri a big one.
Kirth, you came out with this when we discussed about Vital Strike, too. You REALLY hate big swords :P
Kirth, you came out with this when we discussed about Vital Strike, too. You REALLY hate big swords :P
Yes, I do! It's a personal pet peeve, no more or less ridiculous than being offended by the costumes, and I admit it freely and without reservation. In terms of mechanics, though, I think the game weighs too heavily in favor of them, and that does bug me a bit. For the art, it's not just the barbarian girl; check out Orik in PF#1 (IIRC) -- dude's bastard sword is longer than he is tall.
Okay, honestly, the art is fine. But increasingly my girlfriend rolls her eyes at it, which means that it isn't quite hitting the mark as far as making her want to play the game, and that should be the primary purpose of the art in game books. I think it needs to be rolled back just a bit.
One example of too far is in the Inner Sea guide (Nirmathas I think) there is a battle scene with a gratuitous cleavage shot in the foreground. I'm no puritan, but I find that inserting sexualized images into the wrong context detracts from my enjoyment of the game.
It seems to me that this is a recent increase, BTW. I'd be happy to return to an earlier level of sexuality in the artwork. For example, the same level of cleavage was totally appropriate in the opening pic for Pett's Bazaar article in Legacy of Fire. There may have been even more cheese that was called for in Pathdinder #5. And I'd never until recently had a problem with incongruous boobs in paizo art.
The message that cheesecake-without-context sends to girls that I game with is that their female characters will be hyper-sexualized by the male players because that is the assumption of the game world. I have a hard time getting the girls in my groups to play female characters at all (though not the reverse problem).
Anyway, it's not a moral outrage. I just think the target should be projecting images of women that make women want to adventure — not merely to titillate men, except where those things overlap. It's a fine line to be certain.
Obviously I'm male, and the only indication that I have that something's off-the-mark is the response I see from my female players.
+1
Well put, this is part of what I wanted to say on the subject. I like boobs, a lot, but are boobs worth it to alienate possible future players who are only turned off by the unnecessarily sexual art? It makes me wonder though, does sex really sell? Never in my life have I picked up an RPG and wanted to play it because it featured women with revealing clothes. Is there anyone out there who has? Really, I'm asking, it's not rhetorical.
The incongruous boobs that bothers me the most are the Iconic females of the APG. None of the female APG Iconics aren't wearing something revealing and none of them have proportions less than voluptuous. I understand this is a fantasy world, but just who's fantasy is it?
Now, the blind Oracle might not be able to see what she's wearing, but then again how would she be able to arrange her clothes for the maximum boob revealing in the first place? (Obviously the answer is magic)
The Inquisitor, possibly the most conservative character class (along with the Paladin), while being fully armored and wearing a long coat is still showing off "the goods." Why? Wouldn't that breastplate be uncomfortable without a shirt underneath?
Historically speaking the Witch is connected with sex and sexuality, but they're also connected with ugly crones who have warts. This would have been a perfect opportunity to have an older female Iconic, equivalent to the Wizard or the Summoner, but instead we have a scantily clad young looking woman with white hair.
I'm not a moral crusader and I really do like the artwork for Pathfinder, I just want a product I can show to my girlfriend and have her not roll her eyes and think that being a table-top role player also means you're a perv.
On a somewhat related, but slightly different note, where are all the sexy guys? Yeah, the Magus (Elric's little brother Schmelrik of Schmelnibone, amiright?), the Monk and the Bard have their shirts open, but where are the tight trousers with male bulge? If the art isn't going to change, at least make it equally sexual.
|
Or you read Amiri's backstory and see that she claimed that sword from a frost giant she killed, and actually has penalties for using an oversized weapon, but continues to do so anyway because she is a badass.
I love Amiri's back story! I just noticed it in Kingmaker a couple of weeks ago and have been repeating it my gamer friends and players.
I can understand the OP concern. My only suggestion would be to use the SRD and make up the characters for your wife and child. I myself have no problem with the art but I can see where someone else might. Sorry if this wasn't very helpful.
I agree with this. I know it's not the same as a printed hardbound rulebookut PFSRD even has a PDF of the bare bones core rules. Even just downloading that and printing and binding that might serve you and others here better.
Personally I dont have an issue with the art at all. My 3 female players dont seem to have an issue with it either. If they did I would have heard about it I think.
back on topic if i buy a pdf version of the book is it legal for me to print it out at kinkos? i also buy all my music off itunes so yes i am that guy. just want to be fair and honest to paizo. what are the rules?
I like boobs, a lot, but are boobs worth it to alienate possible future players who are only turned off by the unnecessarily sexual art?
Everyone's definition of "unnecessarily" is going to be different. We've found a level that we're comfortable with, and I don't think we plan on changing it because some people think we're showing too much.
And for the record, my wife is totally fine with all the iconic art. Of course, she is a bikini designer for female bodybuilders, so perhaps her idea of "appropriate amount of exposed skin in a public place" is atypical....
Yes, I do! It's a personal pet peeve, no more or less ridiculous than being offended by the costumes, and I admit it freely and without reservation. In terms of mechanics, though, I think the game weighs too heavily in favor of them, and that does bug me a bit. For the art, it's not just the barbarian girl; check out Orik in PF#1 (IIRC) -- dude's bastard sword is longer than he is tall.
I think the game helps TH fighting in general more, but advantages are not related to the weapon size, just to the PA mechanics. In fact, you get penalties for a big sword like the one of Amiri, and swear quite lot to get advantage from the 2d8 damage (and you must "buy" three times vital strike).
In fact, I think that weapon with bigger damage (axes and straight swords) are LESS poweful than picks and scimitars, expecially at high levels when flat bonuses are more important than the damage dice.
BTW, this is one of the reasons of my "crusade" for a 1H-only falcata. Could rebalance a little bit the styles - not enough, and more feats are spent, but is something.
(sorry for the off-topic).
just wanted to make sure my comment wasn't missed
if i but the pdf can i then print them at kinkos. i don't want to break any copyrights or anything.
Senior Software Developer
|
Lobolusk: This is covered in the FAQ.
Can I print my PDF, or have it professionally printed?
You may print one copy of any Paizo PDF for personal use. Note that this only applies to products that list Paizo Publishing as the copyright holder—other publishers may have different policies; you'll need to contact them directly.
The incongruous boobs that bothers me the most are the Iconic females of the APG. None of the female APG Iconics aren't wearing something revealing and none of them have proportions less than voluptuous. I understand this is a fantasy world, but just who's fantasy is it?
Thanks for the +1 Robert, but I actually disagree with you there.
I think Wayne Reynold's depiction of the iconics is actually the "okay" baseline that I want. Seoni looking as she does in the iconic art is fine given her role in the game. Now, some of the other artists just can't seem to resist crossing the stripper line... even that's okay, as long as it makes a bit of sense.
Some of the more recent covers depicting Seoni, and some of the scene art like the Nirmathas world guide pic I mentioned, those are the ones that seem to be eliciting a bad reaction from my female players. I happen to agree with them. Context matters, and seeing cleavage rudely inserted into a battle scene (for me) detracts from both the battle scene and the cleavage. :)
It's worth noting that it is only a handful of images in question, but it is getting noticed at my table, and it is not regarded positively.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lobolusk: This is covered in the FAQ.
Can I print my PDF, or have it professionally printed?
You may print one copy of any Paizo PDF for personal use. Note that this only applies to products that list Paizo Publishing as the copyright holder—other publishers may have different policies; you'll need to contact them directly.
Thanks Gary, i think what i will do is purchase a pdf and then edit the images i want then print it out professionally.
wanted to say you do a good job it must not be easy being the forum guy. but thanks for your work. if no body has said it before
I like boobs, a lot, but are boobs worth it to alienate possible future players who are only turned off by the unnecessarily sexual art?Everyone's definition of "unnecessarily" is going to be different. We've found a level that we're comfortable with, and I don't think we plan on changing it because some people think we're showing too much.
And for the record, my wife is totally fine with all the iconic art. Of course, she is a bikini designer for female bodybuilders, so perhaps her idea of "appropriate amount of exposed skin in a public place" is atypical....
It's not that you're "showing too much" (for me anyway), it's the circumstances under which they are being shown. Like the clevage in the picture that Evil Lincoln mentioned of Nirmathas. Or of the Andoran picture with the charge being led by General Chest Revealer (all mentioned art from the Inner Sea World Guide). If it were art of the inside of a brothel or of a raucous party or of Absalom's annual "Wet Tunic Contest" I would totally agree that sexualizing those images is totally warrented, necessary, and keeping with the context of the situation.
Obviously everyone has a different idea of "unnecessarily" but I think that I'm not far off the mark in saying that exoposed skin adds nothing of actual game value to the APG Iconics or the examples that were previously mentioned.
I only say this because I know there are people out there who dismiss Pathfinder because of the art and while I think that's ridiculous I want to see Pathfinder as a game of inclusion rather than one that excludes people for something as trivial as the amount of skin shown.
Lobolusk: This is covered in the FAQ.
Can I print my PDF, or have it professionally printed?
You may print one copy of any Paizo PDF for personal use. Note that this only applies to products that list Paizo Publishing as the copyright holder—other publishers may have different policies; you'll need to contact them directly.
Thanks Gary, i think what i will do is purchase a pdf and then edit the images i want then print it out professionally.
wanted to say you do a good job it must not be easy being the forum guy. but thanks for your work. if no body has said it before
Even with permission like this, there may be copier places too skittish to print it for you. Sometimes, they'd rather risk not having you as a customer than risk copying copyright materials you have permission to copy. So if one place turns you down, try another.
The incongruous boobs that bothers me the most are the Iconic females of the APG. None of the female APG Iconics aren't wearing something revealing and none of them have proportions less than voluptuous. I understand this is a fantasy world, but just who's fantasy is it?Thanks for the +1 Robert, but I actually disagree with you there.
I think Wayne Reynold's depiction of the iconics is actually the "okay" baseline that I want. Seoni looking as she does in the iconic art is fine given her role in the game. Now, some of the other artists just can't seem to resist crossing the stripper line... even that's okay, as long as it makes a bit of sense.
Some of the more recent covers depicting Seoni, and some of the scene art like the Nirmathas world guide pic I mentioned, those are the ones that seem to be eliciting a bad reaction from my female players. I happen to agree with them. Context matters, and seeing cleavage rudely inserted into a battle scene (for me) detracts from both the battle scene and the cleavage. :)
It's worth noting that it is only a handful of images in question, but it is getting noticed at my table, and it is not regarded positively.
I think the Core characters are okay, I totally agree with that. It's the basic characters of APG that I think step slightly over that line. I'll give the witch a pass because they've got sex and sexuality in their historical background, but why would the blind woman and the religious conservative being revealing so much? That's an issue of context for me.
But yeah, it is only a handful of images, perhaps I sound a little more heated than I actually am about the issue because my text doesn't carry my tone well.
|
Thanks Gary, i think what i will do is purchase a pdf and then edit the images i want then print it out professionally.
I recommend Lulu Publishing. Just make sure you make it a private thing not available for just anyone to buy and you should have no legal troubles.
|
|
I like boobs, a lot, but are boobs worth it to alienate possible future players who are only turned off by the unnecessarily sexual art?Everyone's definition of "unnecessarily" is going to be different. We've found a level that we're comfortable with, and I don't think we plan on changing it because some people think we're showing too much.
And for the record, my wife is totally fine with all the iconic art. Of course, she is a bikini designer for female bodybuilders, so perhaps her idea of "appropriate amount of exposed skin in a public place" is atypical....
Don't change a thing, Sean.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not that you're "showing too much" (for me anyway), it's the circumstances under which they are being shown. Like the clevage in the picture that Evil Lincoln mentioned of Nirmathas.
I guess because aggressive expansionist countries like Molthune never launch attacks at settlements with by cleavage-revealing farmgirls or barmaids, they only attack soldiers. And we wouldn't want to paint (ha!) Molthune as the bad guys in the section on Nirmathas....
Or of the Andoran picture with the charge being led by General Chest Revealer[/b]
You mean the piece of revolution-themed art that's based on this famous revolution-themed painting?
Art doesn't have to be realistic. Sometimes art is evocative of a mood or theme. Does that art in the Andoran section depict an actual woman, or is it an idealized image of regular people in Andoran standing up for their right to freedom and self-rule? Is it a moment in time, or is it an Andoren painting depicting a historic battle, colored by the lens of propaganda and patriotism?
Obviously everyone has a different idea of "unnecessarily" but I think that I'm not far off the mark in saying that exoposed skin adds nothing of actual game value to the APG Iconics or the examples that were previously mentioned.
Except "nothing of value" is also subjective--it's your opinion of what is or is not necessary.
We're playing a game where magic is real. If I wanted to play a historical game where all armor had to be completely functional, all the art would show everyone in a helmet, and you'd never see anyone's face. Me, I don't want to play historical RPGs, I want to play in a fantasy world where a person can pick up a sword and not be murdered on sight because only the nobles are allowed to carry weapons. The basic premise of the game is already vastly different than history, so why does every scrap of armor have to conform to history or realism?
Seelah is an armored melee character, and none of her vitals are exposed, so her art makes sense. Seoni doesn't need armor at all, she has magic, so her art makes sense. Merisiel is not a tank, and she needs a little more flexibility for her role as an adventurer, so her armor wouldn't necessarily be tight around her neck, and therefore her art makes sense. Kyra is a conservative priestess and is pretty well covered, not even showing her neck, therefor her art makes sense. Amiri is a crazy raging barbarian who shrugs off hits from a frost giant, her armor is no less practical than "I'm wearing a bearskin as my armor," so in the context of barbarians, her armor makes sense (she's also carrying a sword that weighs about 80 pounds, so the realism of her armor isn't her biggest issue).
Sajan is mostly shirtless, yet that's not "of no value." Conan the Barbarian is rarely shown in armor, yet that's not "of no value." Valeros doesn't even have a helmet in his art, yet that's not "of no value." So many times, these arguments boil down to, "you're showing parts of *women's* bodies, and doing so for no reason," even though man-flesh may also be prevalent.
I only say this because I know there are people out there who dismiss Pathfinder because of the art and while I think that's ridiculous I want to see Pathfinder as a game of inclusion rather than one that excludes people for something as trivial as the amount of skin shown.
If someone decides to not play Pathfinder because some of the characters have exposed arms, legs, or cleavage, so be it. We're not blatantly trying to sexualize the female characters (unlike another d20 publiser's cover art). Women who are offended by Merisiel and Seoni (and let me quote a female game designer here) need to get over it.
Note that I'm not saying Lobolusk is wrong for not wanting to show the art to his children. That's his choice. But he's not saying, "you'd sell more if you stopped doing this because this is offending people." It turns out that no matter what you do, you're going to offend some people, so as a publisher you find what *you* are comfortable with, and let the market decide whether or not that's an appropriate standard.
SKR:
You're largely defending the Core iconics, which Robert Cameron said he was okay with -- I feel like the two of you are somewhat talking past each other.
I was composing that message while other replies were going on.
As for the iconic oracle, the curse doesn't make her totally blind.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OK, guess it's going to take an actual tailor to address this...
The oracle's outfit is the most revealing, but don't the people of her ethnicity come from Golarion's more tropical (i.e. hot and humid) zones? I can tell you that when I visit the renaissance festivals in Charlotte and Atlanta that half-bodices in that same style are extremely popular. Why? Because they are comfortable, give good support, and keep you cool — something that's quite important in Georgia in May and June when it's 95° and 95% humidity.
Trust me, the humidity makes a big difference. Just 2 weeks ago I was in Dallas where it was in the 90s yet the humidity was low. I was able to comfortably wear slacks and a long sleeve shirt the whole time. When I arrived back in Charlotte though, it was the exact same temperature but with high humidity. I needed shorts and short sleeves to avoid roasting to death.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...the Andoran picture with the charge being led by General Chest Revealer...
Really? Do you guys really have female players complaining about that pic? That's not only a period correct neckline, but I'd go so far as to say it is quite modest. I've made chemises like the white one she is wearing. They stay in place and they offer a good range of movement for women who have to do actual work and not just sit around looking pretty.
As for the woman in the Nirmathas picture, she's busty yes, but she's wearing the exact same basic style of chemise only with an underbust corset instead of an overdress. Again, a popular and practical style.
Honestly, if you go looking to be offended, you will find things to offend you. Maybe it's because I actually frequent events where people dress like this, but I'm really starting to feel like people are going out of their way to find stuff to complain about at this point.
Just to make sure no-one's putting words into people's mouths, nobody here has said that they are offended by anything. However, what has been mentioned is that the art makes certain people uncomfortable. The key difference is "offended = that's wrong!" and "uncomfortable = I don't want to participate."
And I have found that the art in Pathfinder makes people uncomfortable, particularly female players. They have been put-off and dissauded from the game because "it's obviously written by a bunch of horny guys." They don't feel welcome.
It's a real hurdle I've run into when trying to get people interested in the game. Weirdly enough, I *don't* get that same kind of reaction from Artesia, which features full-frontal nudity (of both genders), but is not sexualized nor presented in an arousing way.
I think it has to do with a feeling of being singled-out, and putting it unnessecarily in the fore.
I think we all know that this discussion is really about dirty old artists.
It's true. You should see all the beautiful women who flock around Larry Elmore at DragonCon even when he's just having fun at karaoke afterwards. ;)
It's not that you're "showing too much" (for me anyway), it's the circumstances under which they are being shown. Like the clevage in the picture that Evil Lincoln mentioned of Nirmathas.I guess because aggressive expansionist countries like Molthune never launch attacks at settlements with by cleavage-revealing farmgirls or barmaids, they only attack soldiers. And we wouldn't want to paint (ha!) Molthune as the bad guys in the section on Nirmathas....
Or of the Andoran picture with the charge being led by General Chest Revealer[/b]You mean the piece of revolution-themed art that's based on this famous revolution-themed painting?
Art doesn't have to be realistic. Sometimes art is evocative of a mood or theme. Does that art in the Andoran section depict an actual woman, or is it an idealized image of regular people in Andoran standing up for their right to freedom and self-rule? Is it a moment in time, or is it an Andoren painting depicting a historic battle, colored by the lens of propaganda and patriotism?
Obviously everyone has a different idea of "unnecessarily" but I think that I'm not far off the mark in saying that exoposed skin adds nothing of actual game value to the APG Iconics or the examples that were previously mentioned.Except "nothing of value" is also subjective--it's your opinion of what is or is not necessary.
We're playing a game where magic is real. If I wanted to play a historical game where all armor had to be completely functional, all the art would show everyone in a helmet, and you'd never see anyone's face. Me, I don't want to play historical RPGs, I want to play in a fantasy world where a person can pick up a sword and not be murdered on sight because only the nobles are allowed to carry weapons. The basic premise of the game is already vastly different than history, so why does every scrap of armor have...
Two things.
1) I don't think there is an equal amount of flesh shown on men as there are on women in Pathfinder. In the APG not a single Iconic male shows any skin (besides face and hands) while the women are just bursting out of their clothes. In my first post on this thread I point out the lack "sexy males." Yes there are two with open shirts, but they are in no way sexualized to the same degree as the women. Your intention may not be to sexualize women, but often time our intentions are thwarted and I think that is the case here, at least in the instances I mentioned.
I am aware that Molthune would attack chest revealing Nirmathian women as well as soldiers, but wouldn't they also attack half naked men? Same for the Andorean picture, why not a brigade of women charging led by a shirtless man? Sure it's inspired by a real picture, but who's to say you can't change it? And while Conan is quite nearly nude, Conan isn't an Iconic or part of Pathfinder, so bringing him up is a non-point. The degree to which men and women are show in revealing clothing is most certainly not equal.
2) I feel like you're being dismissive of something that I think is rather serious. I know that Pathfinder isn't realistic, but that's not the issue and by bringing it up I feel like you're just trying to muddy the water around the actual issue of sexualization of art. Maybe I'm reading you wrong and if I am I apologize, but I feel like you don't think that the art is sexual and you're hiding your opinion behind that of women who agree with you, like your wife (who sounds awesome, btw) and acting like that should end the issue because two women say it's not too bad. Again, if I'm reading wrong I apologize, but I feel like you're not treating this issue with the thought it deserves.
I still love Pathfinder though!
I think this entire argument would be solved if Lem took off his shirt.