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Trying to build a 15-point buy monk that actually looks like the monk I want is like having teeth pulled.
The original concept is a barehanded, DEX and WIS heavy, human(Vudrani or Garundi) Qinggong monk, with a token couple of points in STR to make the Bruce Lee physique believable, 13 INT for greater combat maneuvers, and just a +1 in CON. I was looking at taking Weapon Finesse, Pirahna Strike, and Agile Maneuvers to help the DEX > STR concept work. Then I remembered how restrictive the standard point buy is.
So now the watered down version is:
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 10
Just how much of a negative impact would it make to drop DEX and/or WIS down to 14 or even 15 in order to bring CON and INT up?
In case it matters, the only Vow that wouldn't wreck the character flavor-wise is Truth.
Thanks.
Trying to build a 15-point buy monk that actually looks like the monk I want is like having teeth pulled.
The original concept is a barehanded, DEX and WIS heavy, human(Vudrani or Garundi) Qinggong monk, with a token couple of points in STR to make the Bruce Lee physique believable, 13 INT for greater combat maneuvers, and just a +1 in CON. I was looking at taking Weapon Finesse, Pirahna Strike, and Agile Maneuvers to help the DEX > STR concept work. Then I remembered how restrictive the standard point buy is.
So now the watered down version is:
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 10Just how much of a negative impact would it make to drop DEX and/or WIS down to 14 or even 15 in order to bring CON and INT up?
In case it matters, the only Vow that wouldn't wreck the character flavor-wise is Truth.
Thanks.
Just remember you can point buy your INT to 12 and use the point at 4th level to make it 13. You probably wont get the greater stuff till then anyway
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Wis 14 would probably be survivable, and it would allow for both Con 12 and Int 13. It's not ideal, but, well... it's a 15 points buy monk. Can you stand to drop your Charisma at all?
That's part of my headache. I hate having to dump stats period, and considering how some GMs on these boards hardwire CHA into whether or not you can ever inspire anyone in-game...
But yeah, as a last resort I could drop it down to 8 or 9 under a reasonable GM.
You might want to put Extra Ki on there too.
Noted, hard.
or seriously drop Dex. Like, 12. That should let you put up Int, Con, and mayyybe spring for 13 Str. PA will be better than Weapon Finesse then, as well as free up those feat slots from Agile Maneuvers and Piranha Strike.
Mechanically it's more sound, but dropping DEX and going beefmonk is just a buzzkill for me. I'm really trying to get as close to the monk flavor I want, even if some effectiveness is sacrificed. My concern is just avoiding having that sacrifice mean the monk is doomed not be effective at all.
Just remember you can point buy your INT to 12 and use the point at 4th level to make it 13. You probably wont get the greater stuff till then anyway
Hitting myself on the forehead for not even considering that. That takes some of the pressure off at least.
Thanks guys.
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STR 13
DEX 12
CON 13
INT 12
WIS 16
CHA 10
Plenty of choices of where to put your 4th level increase. Maybe swap Con and Int so you don't have to put the point in Int at 4th and can increase your Str for more damage. Maybe drop your Cha for a couple extra points to work with.
Or, for the Dex version...
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 14
CHA 10
Keeps your Dex high enough to make Weapon Finesse/Agile Maneuvers reasonable choices, avoids dumps, and you have some better saves. Again, maybe swap Con and Int so you have two things to bump up.
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Actually, I noticed my calculations may be off. Your opening monk included racial bonuses didn't it? I think my suggestions still work, using the +2 racial bonus to bump the 14 to a 16.
Yeah, plugged into one or the other 16. Sorry about that.
I'm leaning heavily towards the second stat set in your previous post too right now, with CON and INT switched.
Thanks again, all. :)
You can use magic items to qualify for feats. A headband of +int would allow you to take the maneuver feats.
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A DEX-based monk may be OK if the rest of the party includes some high(er?)-damage classes: you can focus on the role of melee controller. If you DON'T have any melee party members who can do decent damage, your DEX-based monk build just isn't going to be very effective -- monks are really very MAD and creating a monk with a 15 point buy is seriously gimping your build. Here's my suggestion. It's STR-based, but DEX heavy and very balanced. STR is just easier than DEX if you want to be able to do combat maneuvers and still have some melee damage potential: (eg not spending feats to leverage your DEX).
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 8
Note: I'm not familiar with Qigong, so the 12 WIS may not make sense for your build.
There is a regional (Cheliax) Pathfinder feat that allows you to ADD your DEX to your STR for combat maneuvers. That would be awesome if your DM would allow it. W/o a feat like that, your combat maneuvers are going to get very tough to pull off as you level up.
Feat suggestions (Human monk, huge focus on tripping, grappling (minor focus) and moderate damage):
Feats:
1) Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk Bonus)
1) Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus)
1) Combat Expertise (1st level)
1) Combat Reflexes (Monk)
2) Dodge (Monk)
3) Improved Trip
5) Ki Throw
6) Improved Grapple (Monk)
7) Improved Ki Throw
9) Greater Trip
10) Medusa's Wrath (Monk)
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Odd ability scores and level increases would be your friend here.
Consider:
Str 10
Dex 15
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 10
Yes, it's a worse array than the original above, but not by much; you've got the same total number of bonuses. But by level 8 you've got:
Str 10
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 16
Cha 10
vs. a Dex or Wis of 18. By Level 4,you end up with one more +1 than you could have under the original. So, you start weaker but end stronger.
My two cents: The difference between 16 Wis and 14 Wis is pretty small.
I played a monk to lvl 10 using these stats a 14 14 14 10 14 10 base on 20 ptbuy
if I had to do it 15 it would be 14 14 12 10 13 10.. with the group I play with bothered perfectly viable after racial str becomes 16.
however this depends ALOT on the people you play with. but the char was 28 ac lvl 10 flurrying for +18 18 18 13 8 I think.
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Str 13 (3)
Dex 17 (7) (+2 racial)
Con 14 (5)
Int 9 (-1)
Wis 14 (5)
Cha 7 (-4)
Bonus skill from human still means 4 skills, Str means you qualify for Power Attack (important feat), still can focus around finesse build.
If you really want the greater combat maneuvers:
Str 12 (2)
Dex 17 (7) (+2 racial)
Con 12 (2)
Int 13 (3)
Wis 14 (5)
Cha 7 (-4)
But not having Power Attack is going to hurt (until you get a stat booster at least).
You can use magic items to qualify for feats. A headband of +int would allow you to take the maneuver feats.
Thats also the way I would go, if I was hard-pressed for point buy points.
Put on a +4 int headband (8000, not that hard to get by level 8, which is the first time you can even get the Greater ones), and after 24 hours you qualify for the feats.Ok, you might need it a bit earlier because you need to get Combat Expertise too.
If you ever lose the headband, you lose access to those feats, but only till you get it back.
Or you concentrate on the Greater feats that you can take. Grapple and Bull Rush mainly.
Or you can still get Improved Trip (with the monk bonus feats), just not the greater one.
My opinion, which I know a lot of people disagree with:
STR is actually the monk's primary stat, despite what the flavor text and some of the abilities would lead you to believe.
I've seen a number of 10 STR monks in play and while they had their moments to shine, they also had combats in which they just could not do anything effective at all, beyond your standard desperation moves like "Well, I guess I'll provide a flank for this non-rogue party member."
My opinion, which I know a lot of people disagree with:
STR is actually the monk's primary stat, despite what the flavor text and some of the abilities would lead you to believe.
I've seen a number of 10 STR monks in play and while they had their moments to shine, they also had combats in which they just could not do anything effective at all, beyond your standard desperation moves like "Well, I guess I'll provide a flank for this non-rogue party member."
I wouldn't disagree with this assessment -- it's just not what the OP wanted.
I wouldn't disagree with this assessment -- it's just not what the OP wanted.
That's true -- but I feel compelled to try to warn them. :)
Seriously, I think it's about as bad as playing a cleric with a 12 starting WIS. Not an unplayable character, but oh, the pain.
Depends on what you're doing with the monk.
With my current monk, I dumped CHA, INT, and DEX, pegged STR, took grappling feats, and bought Ranseur proficiency. I drink an Enlarge potion and stab people out of reach, and if they close on me I tackle them and pin them to the ground.
Seems to work okay.
Depends on what you're doing with the monk.
With my current monk, I dumped CHA, INT, and DEX, pegged STR, took grappling feats, and bought Ranseur proficiency. I drink an Enlarge potion and stab people out of reach, and if they close on me I tackle them and pin them to the ground.
Seems to work okay.
I guess my question would be, what level are we talking?
Some point in the midlevels it feels like grapple mostly falls out of the game to me, for a variety of reasons -- enemies either literally can't be grappled (incorporeal, etc), or have titanic CMDs, or have freedom of movement, or don't really care if you're grappling them very much, etc. etc. etc.
Not that you'll never get to use it even still, but it becomes like Christmas when you can rather than something you count on in most fights.
But some of that's campaign design, too. The more you're fighting levelled humanoids instead of monsters, generally, the better it looks.
Seriously, I think it's about as bad as playing a cleric with a 12 starting WIS. Not an unplayable character, but oh, the pain.What about a 14 WIS?
Depending on what you're trying to do, I wouldn't consider that all that crazy.
The earliest you can get a Greater feat is level 9. You need 6 BAB which monks get at level 8.
STR 13 (3)
DEX 17 (7 + racial)
CON 11 (1)
INT 13 (3)
WIS 14 (5)
CHA 7 (-4)
Weapon Finesse
Power Attack
Agile Maneuvers
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip
Combat Expertise
Greater Trip
You need too many stat points and too many feats. You'd have to sacrifice damage or maneuvers to do this, or put it off until even higher level. And you'd have to dump CHA to make the stats work.
DEX is broken for melee, especially monks. High DEX, 13 STR and four feats still don't equal high STR and PA. It's really sad, and I hate that the rules don't support a DEX monk, or even a Greater maneuver monk.
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You can use magic items to qualify for feats. A headband of +int would allow you to take the maneuver feats.Thats also the way I would go, if I was hard-pressed for point buy points.
I'm keeping that approach in mind going ahead. It pushes the character even further from the gearless concept I originally wanted, but that ship has sailed anyway as far as official options.
Note: I'm not familiar with Qigong, so the 12 WIS may not make sense for your build.
It's pretty important for Qinggong, not just for ki points but because it's their "casting" stat.
On the feats though, I've been very interested in the Ki Throw set, since it plays into theme perfectly. :)
If it can be made to work dependably with these 15-pt. stats.
Of course you may be locked in as wanting to be human.
Yeah, pretty locked in really. Thanks though.
Odd ability scores and level increases would be your friend here.
I'm at the very least looking at doing this with WIS and CON now. Gonna keep playing around with it along with stat-boost gear planning.
My two cents: The difference between 16 Wis and 14 Wis is pretty small.
That's what I'm hoping, particularly with going Qinggong.
I played a monk to lvl 10 using these stats a 14 14 14 10 14 10 base on 20 ptbuy
if I had to do it 15 it would be 14 14 12 10 13 10.. with the group I play with bothered perfectly viable after racial str becomes 16.however this depends ALOT on the people you play with. but the char was 28 ac lvl 10 flurrying for +18 18 18 13 8 I think.
The folks I'm playing with really aren't optimization crazy. There's that at least. My main concern is whether or not this character can be made to fit the theme and not wind up being miserable to play either right out of the gate or further down the line. If you were getting by just fine on 14 STR though, that's a bit heartening for someone at most planning to get by on 12(if even that). :)
If you really want the greater combat maneuvers:
Str 12 (2)
Dex 17 (7) (+2 racial)
Con 12 (2)
Int 13 (3)
Wis 14 (5)
Cha 7 (-4)But not having Power Attack is going to hurt (until you get a stat booster at least).
Adding this to the set of arrays to play around with, though I'm going to try and inch that CHA back up a bit. :)
I wouldn't disagree with this assessment -- it's just not what the OP wanted.That's true -- but I feel compelled to try to warn them. :)
Seriously, I think it's about as bad as playing a cleric with a 12 starting WIS. Not an unplayable character, but oh, the pain.
Heh, yeah I know. Thanks though. :) I've been plenty monk-depressed for a while now about it.
Depends on what you're doing with the monk.
With my current monk, I dumped CHA, INT, and DEX, pegged STR, took grappling feats, and bought Ranseur proficiency. I drink an Enlarge potion and stab people out of reach, and if they close on me I tackle them and pin them to the ground.
Seems to work okay.
I guess my question would be, what level are we talking?
Some point in the midlevels it feels like grapple mostly falls out of the game to me, for a variety of reasons -- enemies either literally can't be grappled (incorporeal, etc), or have titanic CMDs, or have freedom of movement, or don't really care if you're grappling them very much, etc. etc. etc.
Not that you'll never get to use it even still, but it becomes like Christmas when you can rather than something you count on in most fights.
But some of that's campaign design, too. The more you're fighting levelled humanoids instead of monsters, generally, the better it looks.
Yeah, that's one reason I'm trying to fight against putting all my eggs in one basket as far as combat maneuvers go. It is frustrating to see them decay at higher levels.
On the upside, right now it seems I'm most likely going to get to play this character in the pirate AP, so hopefully that means humanoid enemies aplenty. Even if he's going to stick out like a sore thumb in that campaign...
DEX is broken for melee, especially monks. High DEX, 13 STR and four feats still don't equal high STR and PA. It's really sad, and I hate that the rules don't support a DEX monk, or even a Greater maneuver monk.
Hell, it's infuriating. That's why I'm piling so much hope onto Ultimate Combat. Trying very hard to stay optimistic on that book.
Thanks big time, everyone. It's never going to be perfect, but I've got some more angles to approach this concept now. :)
The Elite array is 15 point buy I believe, which provides a nice variety in where the bonuses go.
You'll end up with one dump stat though, so you'll have to move the numbers around a little.
It's the array I used for my DPR monk (not the concept you're going for, but still) and that put up some pretty respectable numbers.
On the bright side, if your monk will stick out like a sore thumb in the AP, that's a good RP excuse for having low CHA.
Some thoughts:
Pirahna Strike doesn't require STR. (Didn't know, core only.)
Starting with 9 HP isn't much better than 8, especially if you can use the stat points to boost AC/Will.
No reason to gimp your entire low level career for something you won't have until level 9+, especially when you can buy +4 INT at high level without much care for the cost.
So you could do something like this:
STR 10
DEX 18 (10+2)
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 15 (7)
CHA 8 (-2)
Boost WIS at 4 and buy headband of WIS to get to 18.
1- Weapon Finesse
1- Agile Maneuvers or Combat Reflexes
3- Pirahna Strike
6- AM or CR or Imp Trip
9- Combat Exp or one from 6
12- Greater Trip
Question: Is Greater Trip worth so much hastle? Do the AoOs you get from Combat Reflexes stack with Greater Trip?
Trying to build a 15-point buy monk that actually looks like the monk I want is like having teeth pulled.
The original concept is a barehanded, DEX and WIS heavy, human(Vudrani or Garundi) Qinggong monk, with a token couple of points in STR to make the Bruce Lee physique believable, 13 INT for greater combat maneuvers, and just a +1 in CON. I was looking at taking Weapon Finesse, Pirahna Strike, and Agile Maneuvers to help the DEX > STR concept work. Then I remembered how restrictive the standard point buy is.
So now the watered down version is:
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 10Just how much of a negative impact would it make to drop DEX and/or WIS down to 14 or even 15 in order to bring CON and INT up?
In case it matters, the only Vow that wouldn't wreck the character flavor-wise is Truth.
Thanks.
You get most maneuvers as bonus feats anyway. Have you already allocated or just overlooked that route?
Bonus feats?
/punt self
1- Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes
2- ?
3- Pirahna Strike
6- Combat Expertise, Imp Trip
9- Greater Trip
I tried one, seems playable. Just stay back with the xbow for a good long while :).
Male Human (Vudrani) Monk 1
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +6
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DEFENSE
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AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 9 (1d8)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Dagger +2 (1d4/19-20/x2) and
Shortsword +2 (1d6/19-20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +2 (1d6/20/x2)
Ranged Crossbow, Heavy +2 (1d10/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows -1/-1
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STATISTICS
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Str 10, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 10
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 15
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 13), Weapon Finesse
Traits Resilient, World Traveler: Diplomacy
Skills Acrobatics +6, Diplomacy +5, Escape Artist +6, Perception +6, Sense Motive +6, Stealth +6
Languages Common, Osiriani, Vudrani
SQ AC Bonus +2, Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d6)
Combat Gear Bolts, Crossbow (40), Crossbow, Heavy, Dagger, Shortsword; Other Gear Backpack (empty), Waterskin
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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AC Bonus +2 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Flurry of Blows -1/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Stunning Fist (1/day) (DC 13) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Out of curiosity I also built a dwarf that didn't focus on Str, as a Zen Archer Monk with Str 13 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 17 Cha 8, going +1 Wis at 4th level seems like a very capable archer. +8/+8 flurry with a +1 composite longbow seems solid.
I don't have the Ultimate Magic HL files, so no Qinggong in the spoiler.
Depends on what you're doing with the monk.
With my current monk, I dumped CHA, INT, and DEX, pegged STR, took grappling feats, and bought Ranseur proficiency. I drink an Enlarge potion and stab people out of reach, and if they close on me I tackle them and pin them to the ground.
Seems to work okay.
I guess my question would be, what level are we talking?
Some point in the midlevels it feels like grapple mostly falls out of the game to me, for a variety of reasons -- enemies either literally can't be grappled (incorporeal, etc), or have titanic CMDs, or have freedom of movement, or don't really care if you're grappling them very much, etc. etc. etc.
Not that you'll never get to use it even still, but it becomes like Christmas when you can rather than something you count on in most fights.
But some of that's campaign design, too. The more you're fighting levelled humanoids instead of monsters, generally, the better it looks.
Well ok, so you stab that stuff with your ranseur.
Is it the a plus best minmax? Maybe not, but it let's you play a strength pegged monk fairly well, and it's unique and gives you much more options than just "I flurry" every round.