|
I ran a Star Wars game using the Revised Core Rules for nearly two years and had an absolute blast doing it.
Although my next foray into SW will likely be either Saga Edition, or heavily homebrewed with liberal doses of Pathfinderized feats and skills (not to mention some much-needed lightsaber nerfs), the RCR is the foundation of the game for me.
My friends and I enjoyed many great hours of gameplay as a result of that system. For that, I sincerely thank Bill, and I wish him the best in his next endeavor.
I have to say, I really enjoy our revised SW game as well. I think you're selling him short.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Stop being reasonable! This is clearly a case where we all need to jump the gun and assume the worst!Paizo will be fine. They produce products people want to purchase. ;-)
Oh my God! Oh my God! We're all doomed!!! Earthquakes!! Tidal Waves!!! 40 Years of Darkness. Dogs and cats living together!!! MASS HYSTERIA!!!
Oh my God! Oh my God! We're all doomed!!! Earthquakes!! Tidal Waves!!! 40 Years of Darkness. Dogs and cats living together!!! MASS HYSTERIA!!!Stop being reasonable! This is clearly a case where we all need to jump the gun and assume the worst!Paizo will be fine. They produce products people want to purchase. ;-)
Office tour? Meh. Let me know when the office is rented out at night for group sleep overs, then I'll be booking my ticket to Seattle.
A purple border? Where?Lisa answered that question about office tours because she is Just. That. Awesome.
Paizo's doing great. But, you know, if you wanted to turn your list of subs into a superscriber tag and purple avatar border, we won't complain. Not one bit.
I think it is Paizo Superscriber.
Director of Sales
|
A purple border? Where?Lisa answered that question about office tours because she is Just. That. Awesome.
Paizo's doing great. But, you know, if you wanted to turn your list of subs into a superscriber tag and purple avatar border, we won't complain. Not one bit.
Subscribe to Planet Stories, and you will see! ;)
A purple border? Where?Lisa answered that question about office tours because she is Just. That. Awesome.
Paizo's doing great. But, you know, if you wanted to turn your list of subs into a superscriber tag and purple avatar border, we won't complain. Not one bit.
It looks like this.
Paizo will be fine. They produce products people want to purchase. ;-)
I love Paizo and Pathfinder, but ignoring the fact that D&D 4E has been the #1 selling RPG every quarter (except one) since it released seems to be a little silly. They are different games for different tastes, but D&D is still a very successful line.
Wizards reshuffles employees every year. This is just business as usual.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Office tour? Meh. Let me know when the office is rented out at night for group sleep overs, then I'll be booking my ticket to Seattle.You can sleep on my couch for the low, low price of $500 a night! It's a celebrity amateur bed and breakfast.
Oh, how high and might you have become. I will rend my garments, cast dust in my hair, and sit outside the city gate.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
On the other hand he's directly responsible for all the anguish and schisms caused within the rpg community.
Or am I missing something?
While Bill Slavicsek might be (seems likely) responsible for making a product we don't like, the anguish and schisms are largely the responsibility of fanbois (and grrrrls) who turned an undesirable upgrade into a huge frustrating flamewar. Many (most?) of us just sat back, played the game we liked, and watched the trainwreck. I wasn't anguished or schismed.
I would suggest that the only ones who were caused any real emotional stress as a result of the 4e upgrade are the folks at Paizo who had to deal with 6-12 months of "OH HELL, WHAT NOW!!".
Most of them have gotten over it. I think Lisa is upset that her plans to retire on a beach have been put off for a few years.
edit: For grammar/ punctuation!
|
Oh my God! Oh my God! We're all doomed!!! Earthquakes!! Tidal Waves!!! 40 Years of Darkness. Dogs and cats living together!!! MASS HYSTERIA!!!Stop being reasonable! This is clearly a case where we all need to jump the gun and assume the worst!Paizo will be fine. They produce products people want to purchase. ;-)
Yeah! Now that's more like it!
While Bill Slavicsek might be (seems likely) responsible for making a product we don't like the anguish and schisms are largely the responsibility of fanbois (and grrrrls) who turned it into an undesirably upgrade into a huge frustrating flamewar. Many (most?) of us just sat down and played the game they liked and watched the trainwreck. I wasn't anguished or schismed.
QFT
It looks like this.doh!, I got the 'd' and 'ol' right at least.
And here I though you were misspelling Daigle before. He's way more well known than I am. Although, apparently he's "only" a pathfinder superscriber.
Clearly I need to start the Paizo Superscriber Club.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nope, you're quite right. And he is responsible for the travesty that is star wars d20 revised edition and vitality and wound points among other things. His prior work with TSR and early wotc nonwithstanding, he made a great many f******s. Too many.
@ Scott Betts...resist the urge to fight for 4th edition. There are people who dislike it, and people who hate it. There always will be.
The behavior being exhibited by a lot of Paizo fans (or, perhaps more accurately, anti-WotC folk) in this thread is disgusting. I mean really, really disgusting.
Be better.
For clarification: A guy and his wife (Slavicsek and Carter are married) are now jobless in this economy - whether by choice or not - and all some of you can seem to do is take a dump on the guy for a handful of products you personally did not enjoy but that enriched many others' lives, and treat him as an industry leper not to be allowed near your precious, precious game.
IMHO: Hasbro underestimated the popularity of 3.5...due to the vocal minority who complain about the complexity of the rules, overpowered casters and underpowered melees/skillmonkeys, and the xmas tree effect all at the same time. We do that here, too, but we keep playing 3.5/PF because we feel the pros still outweigh the cons. Hasbro/WotC decided it would be better to risk throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
That. I worry a lot about the vocal minority that hates X, Y, or Z. I worry about the future day Paizo does work on PFRPG 2.0 and that they might have skewed perceptions of what the silent majority want.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nope, you're quite right. And he is responsible for the travesty that is star wars d20 revised edition and vitality and wound points among other things. His prior work with TSR and early wotc nonwithstanding, he made a great many f******s. Too many.
@ Scott Betts...resist the urge to fight for 4th edition. There are people who dislike it, and people who hate it. There always will be.
The behavior being exhibited by a lot of Paizo fans (or, perhaps more accurately, anti-WotC folk) in this thread is disgusting. I mean really, really disgusting.
Be better.
Scott is right. Can people please conjure a single ounce of empathy?
I've definitely railed against Bill S.'s designs in the past, sometimes vocally. But hating on him now is petty and unnecessary. If these are the thoughts you are having, so be it, but must you share them with everyone?
Of course you must. So, I guess I'll just join Scott in declaring "shame on you." I hope nobody ever does something to you like that, but if it happens, may the irony not go unnoticed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, remember that WOTC is owned by Hasbro. Layoffs at WOTC don't necessarily mean the company is in any kind of financial trouble or has "problems." The way modern corporate culture works, these big companies just lay people off to temporarily boost profits. There's no sense of loyalty to employees any more, and people are just seen as disposable cogs.
(This is not a commentary on the WotC layoffs or business practices, just an opinion on the quoted post.)
Um, not really. For laying off people to "boost profits", one or more of the following has to be in play.
1. The company has to be small enough that the layoffs can represent a signficant portion of the company's expenses. WotC is a division of Hasbro. The number of people involved in WotC, let alone Hasbro, if fired in total, wouldn't affect profits or stock price to any measurable degree. It's also a 1-time hit/boost - for that month or quarter.
Unless, we're seeing 1000s of people laid off, or Hasbro is a much smaller enterprise than generally believed, you'd have to see WotC laid off in total to "boost profits".
2. The "boost" has to exceed the value of the severance packages to be meaningful. WotC reportedly gives good severance packages so this is unlikely to be in play.
3. The company has to be in serious decline for this measure to "prop things up". Now perhaps this is in play, but it would be assessed by someone outside of WotC and/or Hasbro based on pure speculation.
These are tough economic times. Companies can be run by great people, average people, or total jerks. "Corporate culture" is dictated by the executive leadership team, fostered by managers, and embraced or rejected by employees.
Corporations provide pay and benefits for work performed. In a good scenario, the employee's efforts are valued and rewarded accordingly. In a bad scenario, they aren't. In a good economy it's easier to leave the latter scenario and find work elsewhere. This isn't a good economy right now.
I seriously question how many "corp bashers" actually live and work in corporate America and how many are basing their opinion on Hollywood movies & Shadowrun...
It looks like this.doh!, I got the 'd' and 'ol' right at least.And here I though you were misspelling Daigle before. He's way more well known than I am. Although, apparently he's "only" a pathfinder superscriber.
Clearly I need to start the Paizo Superscriber Club.
I've got quite a few tags... what does one need for Pathfinder Superscriber? I assume Paizo Superscriber is ALL subscriptions...
Paizo is movin' to Okieland?
WHATNTHETARNATION!?!?!?!!!!!
The behavior being exhibited by a lot of Paizo fans (or, perhaps more accurately, anti-WotC folk) in this thread is disgusting. I mean really, really disgusting.I must be missing it. I mean, Mairkurion is always disgusting, but...(<3)
ZiNG!!!
::wearing a stained, threadbare ribbed tank-top, face a red mess of tears::
Why does Mark make me do these things? WHY?!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The behavior being exhibited by a lot of Paizo fans (or, perhaps more accurately, anti-WotC folk) in this thread is disgusting. I mean really, really disgusting.
Be better.
For clarification: A guy and his wife (Slavicsek and Carter are married) are now jobless in this economy - whether by choice or not - and all some of you can seem to do is take a dump on the guy for a handful of products you personally did not enjoy but that enriched many others' lives, and treat him as an industry leper not to be allowed near your precious, precious game.
At the risk of causing the Earth to split in two, I agree with SB. I feel bad for anyone who loses their job - moreso when it affects an entire family's income sources. This is not a great economy in which to be seeking work.
However, other than the tone and text of some of the posts, I don't take issue with saying "I don't want X to work on Pathfinder". It might have been stated more diplomatically, but there's nothing wrong with having creative differences with someone and not wanting their creative influence messing with what you like. I like a lot of Mearls d20 and OGL stuff, for example, but after seeing 4e and how his design philosophy has evolved, I can easily say I don't want to see Pathfinder products from him.
Can people please conjure a single ounce of empathy?
Kicking people when they are down is pretty unsavory. Perhaps some genuinely don't believe that he is down, just out, but I think it's better to assume the worst and act for the best.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With all due respect to the posters above who are intimating that people here are lacking empathy:
Look, if I work for a company, and part of my history with that company involves developing a product that causes a schism among the consumers of the company's main product line, when I retire (whatever the reason) I don't expect the primary messageboard of the fans that split from the company to be all like "Congrats on a great career." I would expect them to say "Don't let the door hit you." This is a reality of making products that people care about.
Now, if this gentleman (god forbid) were to die, and people are saying derrogatory things in a thread announcing or talking about his death, that would be reprehensible. This thread is full of people saying (sometimes vehemently) that they don't want this guy to come write for Paizo. I seriously don't see the problem.
PS - I have no opinion at all about this fellow's career. I do think that calling this thread disgusting is a little over the top. I am a little intrigued that this news would come one work day before Paizo's new employee is scheduled to show up for work. That's all I have for everyone.
Paizo is movin' to Okieland?
WHATNTHETARNATION!?!?!?!!!!!
Sweet, I can work part-time on evenings and weekends, but I'll keep my full-time job! C'mon, we're friendly in the north-central parts of Oklahoma. (I'd avoid the southeast if possible.)
I've got quite a few tags... what does one need for Pathfinder Superscriber? I assume Paizo Superscriber is ALL subscriptions...Adventure Path, Modules, Companions, RPG, Pathfinder Tales. I think that's it but maybe mappacks too. Those are all of mine.
Thanks. I've got it covered now, as you can see above. :)
I've got:
Pathfinder Adventure Path
Pathfinder Campaign Setting
Pathfinder Player Companion
Pathfinder Modules
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Tales
I just added modules.
|
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Look, if I work for a company, and part of my history with that company involves developing a product that causes a schism among the consumers of the company's main product line, when I retire (whatever the reason) I don't expect the primary messageboard of the fans that split from the company to be all like "Congrats on a great career." I would expect them to say "Don't let the door hit you." This is a reality of making products that people care about.
Bill designed a new version of D&D with the intent of entertaining the fans of the game. Some of us didn't like it. Most of us have long since gotten over it. Reveling in his and his wife's misfortune is childish at best.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Look, if I work for a company, and part of my history with that company involves developing a product that causes a schism among the consumers of the company's main product line, when I retire (whatever the reason) I don't expect the primary messageboard of the fans that split from the company to be all like "Congrats on a great career." I would expect them to say "Don't let the door hit you." This is a reality of making products that people care about.Bill designed a game with the intent of entertaining the fans of the game. Some of us didn't like it, get over it. Reveling in his misfortune is childish.
This. A million times this.
Bill didn't cause any schism. Don't blame him for your decision to react poorly to changes to a game.
|
|
Bill designed a new version of D&D with the intent of entertaining the fans of the game. Some of us didn't like it. Most of us have long since gotten over it. Reveling in his and his wife's misfortune is childish at best.
I don't disagree with you, Ogre. And for the record, I'm not doing that. There is, however, a difference between resigning and being fired. One engenders a lot more pity than the other. If resigning isn't a man's best option, it's rarely the one he takes. It's extremely rare that a man gives his job up just because he's a nice guy. Doubly so when he needs that job to survive.
I don't disagree with you, Ogre. And for the record, I'm not doing that. There is, however, a difference between resigning and being fired. One engenders a lot more pity than the other. If resigning isn't a man's best option, it's rarely the one he takes. It's extremely rare that a man gives his job up just because he's a nice guy. Doubly so when he needs that job to survive.
Bill designed a new version of D&D with the intent of entertaining the fans of the game. Some of us didn't like it. Most of us have long since gotten over it. Reveling in his and his wife's misfortune is childish at best.
I...wait...what?
|
|
Look, if I work for a company, and part of my history with that company involves developing a product that causes a schism among the consumers of the company's main product line, when I retire (whatever the reason) I don't expect the primary messageboard of the fans that split from the company to be all like "Congrats on a great career." I would expect them to say "Don't let the door hit you." This is a reality of making products that people care about.Bill designed a game with the intent of entertaining the fans of the game. Some of us didn't like it, get over it. Reveling in his misfortune is childish.This. A million times this.
Bill didn't cause any schism. Don't blame him for your decision to react poorly to changes to a game.
You know pretty much nothing about me and the way I reacted to anything, Scott. So please don't presume to.
Did he preside over the development of fourth edition? Yes. Did fourth edition cause a schism in Wizards fan base? Yes.
I'll stand by my statement, your assumptions about me personally notwithstanding.
You know pretty much nothing about me and the way I reacted to anything, Scott. So please don't presume to.
That was a general "you", directed at the thread at large. If it doesn't apply to you, you can safely ignore it. Don't take it personally. You were speaking in general terms, and so was I.
Did he preside over the development of fourth edition? Yes. Did fourth edition cause a schism in Wizards fan base? Yes.
Any schism caused was the direct result of how individuals chose to react to the changes in question.
There's a difference between people not deciding to play the game (a reasonable decision) and reacting in such a way as to create a hostile environment (an unreasonable decision, but unfortunately the one many chose to make).
When people talk about the "schism" they're not referring to people who are enjoying Pathfinder and minding their own business. They're talking about the people who use vitriolic language to attack a game they don't enjoy and its creators/fans.
Consider, for a moment, that no matter what decisions Slavicsek and his team made in designing 4e, some people would be upset and angry. No matter how narrow he was able to make the inevitable rift, some people would still feel the way about 4e that a lot of the people posting in this thread do. They would still be upset about it, and they would still react to news of his leaving WotC in this way. Would they still be excused for their behavior?
I've got quite a few tags... what does one need for Pathfinder Superscriber? I assume Paizo Superscriber is ALL subscriptions...Adventure Path, Modules, Companions, RPG, Pathfinder Tales. I think that's it but maybe mappacks too. Those are all of mine.Thanks. I've got it covered now, as you can see above. :)
I've got:
Pathfinder Adventure Path
Pathfinder Campaign Setting
Pathfinder Player Companion
Pathfinder Modules
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder TalesI just added modules.
Pathfinder Superscriber is the above. To be a Paizo supersciber you need to add maps, cards, and Planet Stories. Every subscription Paizo offers. Then you get the purple shading on the box.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paizo will be fine. They produce products people want to purchase. ;-)
I love Paizo and Pathfinder, but ignoring the fact that D&D 4E has been the #1 selling RPG every quarter (except one) since it released seems to be a little silly. They are different games for different tastes, but D&D is still a very successful line.
Wizards reshuffles employees every year. This is just business as usual.
Dude! Winky face absolves comment of all malice. Sheesh.
I'm happy in my current relationship. I hope WotC is doing well, and wish them all the best. We had some good times together, but we drifted apart. I'd like to think that, to the extent I have a meaningful relationship with a corporation, the employees of whom I have very rarely interacted with, that relationship is secure and comfortable enough that we can make jokes like this.
And, I'd pour a 40 out for Bill any day. Good man, good gamer, good body of work.
Reveling in his misfortune is childish.QFT
I would too, if anyone were doing that. I see lots of people saying they disliked his design choices, what he did or did not bring to the game, and whether he was responsible for this and that. I see a few more hoping he doesn't show up knocking on Paizo's door, again because of the direction of his design work. But, really, I don't see anyone here *gloating* over his misfortune. Really? That would be pretty distasteful, for sure. Or is simply criticising his work taken to be reveling in his misfortune? Is it that whole 'don't speak ill of the dead' kind of thing - someone suffers a personal calamity and suddenly all their sins are forgotten.
For the record... I never really warmed to anything he wrote, more because I wasn't interested in those properties, but I think I have a few things with his name on, and was never overly impressed. Am I revelling in his misfortune? No. I've been laid off more than once in the past, and before I got old enough to know better I've quit jobs on a matter of principle in the expectation that I could walk into another, and didn't. Being out of work and having a family to support isn't a situation I'd wish on anyone. I've got no opinion over Wizards & 4e, it's not the game for me but I don't begrudge others who enjoy it. But if it really was a case of 'jump or be pushed' then my heart goes out to him and his family. But I think there are people here who see criticism of his time at Wizards and think he's being subject to personal attack. I really don't think that's the case.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dude! Winky face absolves comment of all malice. Sheesh.
Hey, there's perfectly good malicious smiles...
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey, there's perfectly good malicious smiles...
Dude! Winky face absolves comment of all malice. Sheesh.
I told you this in the other thread, but I think you have some berries in your ears:
Don't be a dick! ;-)
(See, winky face absolves all malice!)
(Wait...can you even absolve malice?)
Hey, there's perfectly good malicious smiles...
Dude! Winky face absolves comment of all malice. Sheesh.
I told you this in the other thread, but I think you have some berries in your ears:
Don't be a dick! ;-)
(See, winky face absolves all malice!)
(Wait...can you even absolve malice?)
That's what absolution is for, lapsed RC.
...I think you have some berries in your ears:
GLORY!
|
|
Fair enough, I completely understand what you are saying. I see that sort of thing often enough where I work. But I was under the impression Bill was proud of and took full ownership of the 4e rules.
Has he ever said he wished things were done differently?
I mean that question in a genuinely curious way. Not as a debate attack point.I think that Bill Slavicsek does have responsibility for much of the 4e ruleset and design choices. That's why I think it's perfectly valid to fault him for design changes from 3rd edition to 4e that you don't like. If you don't like 4e powers, skill challenges, etc it's fair to disagree with his design ideas.
Having said that, he was probably under a lot of pressure to change the entire mechanic to move D&D far away from the OGL so WotC would own all D&D material for future editions, and I'm sure there was pressure to adapt a card/toy(mini)/digital model for future projects. I don't know if the board games were planned back in 2007, but that seems to be a huge part of their business model moving forward.
I don't think it's fair to fault him the disaster of the GSL and the discontinuation of an OGL, alienation of 3PP, the poor customer service, putting half the classes and races in the PHB 2 instead of the PHB, for the shift from print to electronic subscription model, for axing Dragon & Dungeon magazines in favor of DDI, etc.
Ultimately, the problem is that this is a dying market, and WotC tried something big and different to try and revive the market. However, I think they did not do it correctly.
Gamers in general HATE change. They just want more of the same, at a really low price. It's a tough market to sell to. Paizo knew this and took the route of making quality adventures and stories along with digital distribution. WotC went with the route of a major gaming engine change along with sticking with traditional distribution. They knew it would hurt, but they took a chance on new players who grow the market.
Higher priced physical rulesbooks are going to die out. WotC decided to to keep it going, along with not having a digital distribution in fear of pirating. Except they always forget that people will ALWAYS pirate, so they should instead try to just sell it at a reasonable price and get all the money they can from it. This is their biggest mistake IMO. People will like/hate the system, but in general print media is dying, and they really screwed up on that one. Rulesbloat is the other problem, and WotC quickly hit that by releasing all those books.
Paizo stuck with OGL, used digital distribution with small and cheap rulesbooks that almost are not worth the effort of pirating because they are cheap. People really need to not see big prices in general. Making people pay 40-60 for books turn them to video games, where it is easier for them to have their fun. 10 is cheap and makes people just spent it as opposed to make them think about their budget.
I think if WotC went with the Paizo distribution, they would have done much better, even if they used their current 4E engine.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
That's what absolution is for, lapsed RC.Hey, there's perfectly good malicious smiles...
Dude! Winky face absolves comment of all malice. Sheesh.
I told you this in the other thread, but I think you have some berries in your ears:
Don't be a dick! ;-)
(See, winky face absolves all malice!)
(Wait...can you even absolve malice?)
Yeah, but isn't it sin that's absolved, not malice? Or is the existence of malice in the past a sin, and therefore capable of absolution. Don't you have some type of advanced degree on point? You have like 30, right?
Wait...isn't sin a giant ball of water that destroys cities?
Vocabulary is hard.
Dude! Winky face absolves comment of all malice. Sheesh.
True, I didn't actually mean to pick on you. I was responding in general to the vibe from others on the thread and your comment summed it up the most succinctly, if only in jest.