|
clerics can have alot of additional options besides being healbots...
it mostly depends on what else you would like to do. Do you want to be a battle cleric ?
take the war or battle subdomain , where heavy armor, wade into combat all buffed up on divine power and kick butt , then heal yourself.
I have made a battle cleric before and it can be entertaining.
|
Look in this forum for TarkXT's Big Holy Book of Cleric Optimization. This will give you some ideas about clerics above and beyond the healbot. There's the Melee Cleric, the Archer Cleric, the Support Cleric, and the Bad Touch Cleric, all giving different ways to approach how you'll contribute in combat.
If I may, what is the overall theme of your cleric? Which God/Concept do you worship? Better yet what domains interest you? I know the first cleric I made was dediacted to the Elemental Princes (focused on Fire and Air) it was pretty fun, though I was mostly pure caster very little melee.
|
I actually tried to design an optimized "healbot" cleric once as an experiment. I tried to see if there was a way to make a cleric where healing (whether in-combat, or between multiple combats but in the same day) was statistically more effective than buffing or battlefield control.
No matter how I crunched the numbers, it always seemed to come out that the ONLY valid time to heal someone is if they would be unconscious without it. Since a fighter is just as effective at 1 hp as he is at 100, is just doesn't make sense to waste actions keeping him "topped up", and while channel energy does help extend the party's "adventuring day", a more judicious use of spells and abilities can keep them from getting hurt in the first place. Also: wand of cure XXX wounds = AWESOME.
Hello everyone!
So I'm having some difficulty with character creation. I have never rolled a cleric before, and am somewhat new to DND. I have no problem being a cleric, the only problem is I am worried about becoming incredibly bored in a position as a simple "healbot."
So, I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on a good way to balance damage-dealing and healing. I dont want to just go straight malice cleric as the party still needs healing done, but as stated earlier I want to do more than just heal.
Are there any suggestions on domains, deity, feats, spells, etc?
Ok, your two main abilities are Wisdom and Charisma. Wisdom affects the number and level of spells you get. Charisma affects things like the number of channeling you can do. However, if you want to be a warrior type you can drop charisma down the 3rd priority and take either Strength (for melee damage), Dex for ac bonus and better use in light weapons or Con to help soak up damage inflicted.
You'll want to take Selective Channeling. If you're using positive energy it will keep a number of your enemies equal to your charisma bonus from healing when you channel. When using this mode the best way to use it is to block the opponent(s) that have taken the most damage in the previous round from gaing the benefit of the channel. If using negative energy you'll want to protect some select members of your party from taking damage (or not).
I don't know if the Pathfinder campaign setting has been updated yet. But if it has not, and you really don't care about domains, you can use the Holy Warrior variant. By giving up your domain powers you will gain the fighter hit dice and BAB.
Clerics get access to almost all the armors (but not tower shields), so they can layer up all they need to if they're a front line fighter for your campaign. On the down side, their weapons choices are much more limited. I have a tendancy to look for whatever deity has a cool weapon that's within a step of whatever alignment I want to play.
If you're more a role-player (rather than a roll-player) and you want to find some examples on how to role-play a cleric, my advice is to check out a couple churches (if you don't go). Don't be afraid to cut loose and ask for a few halleluyas or amens in your game, now.
I will say that being a straight healbot is probably the least effective way to play a cleric. Sure, healing yourself and your allies can be crucial at certain times, but buffing your party, debuffing the enemies, and dishing out damage to down your foes quickly is always going to be more effective than healing when you're in the middle of combat. "A smart cleric will stop the damage from happening in the first place," as our DM says.
We have a healbot cleric in our current campaign. We basically divide everyone up into 4 categories: Big Dumb Fighter, Glass Cannon, Battlefield Controller, and Waste of Space. The healbot cleric is absolutely a Waste of Space. His spells almost always consist entirely of the cure line, the remove spells (disease, curse, etc) and restoration spells. Those are all great spells, in their own right and when they're needed. But so are spells like Bull's Strength/Bear's Endurance/etc, Shield Other, Bless, the Summon Monster line, etc. He hasn't really bothered to look over the Cleric spell list and actually read the description for most of his spells, so he just prepares ones that he knows. One of his domains is even Healing, and he always takes the Healing domain spells (his other domain is Fire, which isn't fantastic but it's infinitely more useful then Healing.)
He also chickens out at the first sign of combat. We're level 8 and he doesn't even have a magical weapon yet; his excuse is that "I'm the healer, I'm not supposed to be fighting!" Sorry, I disagree. Clerics get an average BAB and while their weapon proficiencies aren't great, they're certainly workable, especially if your deity's preferred weapon is good. I play a rogue, do you think he'd be my flanking buddy so I could sneak attack? Nope. Our other PCs include a Gunslinger and a casting-oriented Druid, so it's not like I have a lot of options for flanking buddies.
Whoever said that a Wand of Cure XXX is great is absolutely correct. We always keep a Wand of Cure Light in our party. It's only 750gp to buy one and while it's definitely not an efficient way to heal ourselves during combat, it's great after combat so the cleric doesn't have to blow the rest of his spells/channels healing us (assuming he actually prepares something besides cure spells, that is.)
I actually tried to design an optimized "healbot" cleric once as an experiment. I tried to see if there was a way to make a cleric where healing (whether in-combat, or between multiple combats but in the same day) was statistically more effective than buffing or battlefield control.
No matter how I crunched the numbers, it always seemed to come out that the ONLY valid time to heal someone is if they would be unconscious without it. Since a fighter is just as effective at 1 hp as he is at 100, is just doesn't make sense to waste actions keeping him "topped up", and while channel energy does help extend the party's "adventuring day", a more judicious use of spells and abilities can keep them from getting hurt in the first place. Also: wand of cure XXX wounds = AWESOME.
This is a classic anti-healing argument.
No matter how I crunched the numbers, it always seemed to come out that the ONLY valid time to heal someone is if they would be unconscious without it.
If a fighter is at 100 hp and he's losing 10 hp a round, the optimal time to heal him is when he's at 10 hp and before his opponent acts. That's a perfect idea for a perfect world. . .
But there are a number of mechanics in the game that can cause issues with simply healing at a defined rate.
For one thing, what happens when an enemy joins a fight as a surprise and drastically increases the damage output? In the case above, an extra 30 points of damage you're not expecting can flat-out kill the fighter. Who is to blame? The fighter doing his job? The GM, who simply did what smart NPCs should do? No, it's the healer's fault for being "optimal" with healing efficiency.
The same issue holds true with critical hits. It's also not easy to estimate ahead of time what the flow of damage output is going to be. A dragon hovering using his far-reaching bite attack and breath weapon does a steady stream of damage. But when will he move in and do a full attack action? When the fighter is at 100 hp or 10 hp? (Hint: the dragon will move in when the fighter looks pretty beat up.)
Using wands for out of combat healing is a good idea. Using wands to form the basis of your healing in-combat is essentially relying on the GM to let that work. Any GM using basic combat strategy with monsters/NPCs is going to cause that "constant rate" healing plan to fail. . . consistently.
Domains are your friends- choose wisely. I just played a battle type Cleric and looooved the Travel Domain. I got to ignore difficult terrain and got +10' to movement plus access to longstrider spell that adds another plus ten feet for hours per level.
Whatever flavor you envision your new Cleric to be, Domains can really help to reinforce that concept, or even to give nifty added dimensions (In the example above, without having an arcane caster in our group my access to Dimension Door and Teleport had me as the party bus).
Never ever ever be a heal bot. Only heal if it's the difference between a dead group and a victorious group and that situation won't come up as often as you think. You're always better off preventing the damage in some way either through increasing AC's, preventing full attacks, or outright eliminating the bad guy.
Proactivity>Reactivity
This is all old news.
Only heal if it's the difference between a dead group and a victorious group and that situation won't come up as often as you think.
Hmmm, it comes up all the time in my games. . . I guess it depends on the difficulty level the game.
|
|
If a fighter is at 100 hp and he's losing 10 hp a round, the optimal time to heal him is when he's at 10 hp and before his opponent acts.
No, actually the best time to heal him in that scenario is AFTER his opponent whumps him, but BEFORE his action. Consider two possible rounds:
In descending initiative:
10) I heal the fighter
8) Enemy wounds fighter
5) Fighter wounds enemy
Classic healer, right? The problem is, if the damage done by the enemy wasn't enough to drop the fighter, then my action is effectively wasted.
In the same situation:
10) I delay
8) Enemy drops fighter
7) I heal fighter
5) Fighter gets up (move) and attacks (standard)
Now, yes, the fighter in this case is denied his full-round action (at higher levels a VERY BIG DEAL), but the advantage is that if the enemy DIDN'T drop the fighter then I get to do something else with my action (like buff the fighter).
For one thing, what happens when an enemy joins a fight as a surprise and drastically increases the damage output? In the case above, an extra 30 points of damage you're not expecting can flat-out kill the fighter.
I'm not sure what you're advocating here. Are you saying a healer's job is to always keep the fighter at full health on the off-chance a dragon shows up?
The important thing to remember is that 0 hp isn't GAME OVER, and at higher levels, even death is just a status condition. In almost any situation, it's better to maximize your damage output (and minimize the enemy's), rather than fixate on hp totals.
10) I delay
8) Enemy drops fighter
7) I heal fighter
5) Fighter gets up (move) and attacks (standard)Now, yes, the fighter in this case is denied his full-round action (at higher levels a VERY BIG DEAL), but the advantage is that if the enemy DIDN'T drop the fighter then I get to do something else with my action (like buff the fighter).
Except the fighter provokes an AoO by getting up. Assuming the fighter didn't killed by the AoO (which the enemy gets a +4 bonus on, since the fighter is prone), the fighter needs to spend *another* move action getting the weapon he dropped by going unconscious (barring a locked gauntlet). This means the figher's damage output is reduced to essentially zero damage, the damage output on the monster has been drastically increased, and the possibly the fighter could be one-shot by a crit has increased. My, that healing spell is suddenly looking a lot more effective!
For one thing, what happens when an enemy joins a fight as a surprise and drastically increases the damage output? In the case above, an extra 30 points of damage you're not expecting can flat-out kill the fighter.I'm not sure what you're advocating here. Are you saying a healer's job is to always keep the fighter at full health on the off-chance a dragon shows up?
Or a fireball from an invisible wizard shows up.
Or a monster uses a necklace of fireballs bead when you didn't expect it.
Or a monster gets a crit.
Or an anvil falls out of the sky.
The bottom line is that if the character drops because the healing class has been stingy with the healing, the healing class gets the blame. It's one thing if the front-line character simply doesn't have enough AC/saves/etc. It's another thing to watch teammates drop because it's more efficient for your healing. . .
The important thing to remember is that 0 hp isn't GAME OVER, and at higher levels, even death is just a status condition. In almost any situation, it's better to maximize your damage output (and minimize the enemy's), rather than fixate on hp totals.
The "almost any situation" isn't what I'm talking about. Of course the goal of the healing class shouldn't be to top off a fighter every time he takes 1 point of damage. The goal should be to be proactive, as was mentioned above. But you can't be proactive healing a dead character. And if there's a question of *when* to heal, earlier is better, especially if the damage output is high. Waiting for some silly threshold or for your teammate to drop is a recipe for disaster.
I'm in the meabolex's camp here. Cleric should have other things to do usually, but don't let the fighter drop. Casting healing is like admitting you should have done something before (like cast Shield Other to fighter before combat), but its better to admit it sooner than later.
The thing one should definately avoid is dropping initiative past the enemy as it really wastes actions. However its better for fighting types to be after spell casters as they can receive boost before their actions. So in the uriel222's example I would go for:
10) I heal the fighter
8) Enemy wounds fighter
5) Fighter delays
Next round:
10) I boost the fighter (Touch of Good for example)... or wound the enemy or whatever
9) Fighter wounds enemy
8) Enemy wounds fighter
|
Hello everyone!
So I'm having some difficulty with character creation. I have never rolled a cleric before, and am somewhat new to DND. I have no problem being a cleric, the only problem is I am worried about becoming incredibly bored in a position as a simple "healbot."
So, I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on a good way to balance damage-dealing and healing. I dont want to just go straight malice cleric as the party still needs healing done, but as stated earlier I want to do more than just heal.
Are there any suggestions on domains, deity, feats, spells, etc?
As someone who's played a lot of clerics is to first pick a faith. The type of cleric you'll be is often dictated by the nature of the god you're worshipping.
Worship Cayden Calen, you'll probably be a dex based, mobility using (the travel domain is a lot of fun), secondary combatant who can heal as needed, but doesn't only heal.
Worship Gorum, you'll probably be a full plate wearing front line combatant.
Worship Calistra and you'll probably be looking to manipulate the enemies with spells.
Worship Gozreh and you'll probably be doing nature and weather based controls (and blasts).
No matter what kind of Cleric you want to be, pick one you're comfortable RPing, and develop from there.
Of course, the tendancy's of a faith are guidelines only, but they can be helpful.
|
|
The "almost any situation" isn't what I'm talking about. Of course the goal of the healing class shouldn't be to top off a fighter every time he takes 1 point of damage. The goal should be to be proactive, as was mentioned above. But you can't be proactive healing a dead character. And if there's a question of *when* to heal, earlier is better, especially if the damage output is high. Waiting for some silly threshold or for your teammate to drop is a recipe for disaster.
...Now I'm beginning to really understand the value of the Life Oracle's Life Link ability. Feed out hit points and focus on monitoring yourself instead of the fighter.
Never ever ever be a heal bot. Only heal if it's the difference between a dead group and a victorious group and that situation won't come up as often as you think. You're always better off preventing the damage in some way either through increasing AC's, preventing full attacks, or outright eliminating the bad guy.
Proactivity>Reactivity
This is all old news.
TarkXT - can I get in on this and throw my character at you for help?
I have read your guide (very nice by the way) as well as Treantmonk's and a few others. But even after reviewing your advice on Domains and the Battle Cleric build I am still not sure.
So just tell me what you would do if you don't mind.
8th level LG Human Cleric. Stats will be 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12 plus the +2 human bonus and 2 leveling bonuses. Allowable domains for me are Good, Destruction, Strength, War and their subdomains.
I want to be a battle cleric. I want to fight as well as I can without dipping into any other classes.
Favored weapon is bastard sword. I know, sweet right? :-)
How would you build it? Mostly I want to know what domains you would choose, but I will take any advice you care to give.
Never ever ever be a heal bot. Only heal if it's the difference between a dead group and a victorious group and that situation won't come up as often as you think. You're always better off preventing the damage in some way either through increasing AC's, preventing full attacks, or outright eliminating the bad guy.
Proactivity>Reactivity
This is all old news.
TarkXT - can I get in on this and throw my character at you for help?
I have read your guide (very nice by the way) as well as Treantmonk's and a few others. But even after reviewing your advice on Domains and the Battle Cleric build I am still not sure.
So just tell me what you would do if you don't mind.
8th level LG Human Cleric. Stats will be 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12 plus the +2 human bonus and 2 leveling bonuses. Allowable domains for me are Good, Destruction, Strength, War and their subdomains.
I want to be a battle cleric. I want to fight as well as I can without dipping into any other classes.
Favored weapon is bastard sword. I know, sweet right? :-)
How would you build it? Mostly I want to know what domains you would choose, but I will take any advice you care to give.
Tark has forgotten more than I know about Clerics, but of the domains you listed I would recommend Destruction and either Ferocity (Strength subdomain from APG) or Tactics (War subdomain from APG), depending on whether you'll be a combat manuvers or raw damage build.
Tark has forgotten more than I know about Clerics, but of the domains you listed I would recommend Destruction and either Ferocity (Strength subdomain from APG) or Tactics (War subdomain from APG), depending on whether you'll be a combat manuvers or raw damage build.
I guess I want raw damage, because I don’t see myself doing many maneuvers. I like trip but I don’t think it fits the character’s personality. Same thing with bull rush and overrun. Disarm makes sense to me, but overall I don’t see him as a finesse type.
Part of my problem with domains is that I keep focusing on the powers and not the spells, If one of the powers turns me off, I forget that the spell list might make it worth living with something like Destructive Aura or Might of the Gods.
And of course I plan to be supportive - hell I was the healbot before the campaign went on hiatus. But I want to focus on the domains that will give ME more combat juice, rather than my allies.
As of now I am thinking Good – I believe most of our enemies will be evil. Can’t decide on the other one. I forgot to mention that Law is also available, but I am not as sure our enemies will be chaotic.
Here is how I see the battles going down. I’ll prep before the fight if I see it coming. If not I’ll spend maybe one round prepping. Then I will focus on helping my allies in the battle. I will stay near the brick if he needs it, and if not I’ll support one of the less meaty PC’s. Perhaps the rogue if he needs a flank.
The only difference from how I used to play him is that I’ll use my bastard sword to help out just as much as I use my spells. And those spells will not be primarily healing.
Never ever ever be a heal bot. Only heal if it's the difference between a dead group and a victorious group and that situation won't come up as often as you think. You're always better off preventing the damage in some way either through increasing AC's, preventing full attacks, or outright eliminating the bad guy.
Proactivity>Reactivity
This is all old news.
TarkXT - can I get in on this and throw my character at you for help?
I have read your guide (very nice by the way) as well as Treantmonk's and a few others. But even after reviewing your advice on Domains and the Battle Cleric build I am still not sure.
So just tell me what you would do if you don't mind.
8th level LG Human Cleric. Stats will be 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 12 plus the +2 human bonus and 2 leveling bonuses. Allowable domains for me are Good, Destruction, Strength, War and their subdomains.
I want to be a battle cleric. I want to fight as well as I can without dipping into any other classes.
Favored weapon is bastard sword. I know, sweet right? :-)
How would you build it? Mostly I want to know what domains you would choose, but I will take any advice you care to give.
No Glory? Bah, oh well. If you want raw damage than Jon has it right. Destruction and Ferocity basically let you stack smites on top of one another since they're separate bonus types.
Lastly take a look at the Alternate channeling for Battle/Wrath adn see if that's up your alley. LEss healing for what is essentially a buff to the party's damage and yours for that matter. It's in UM.
Str:16+2
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Wis: 14
Int: 12
Cha: 14
Feats: Improved Initiative, Toughness or Scribe Scroll
Stick all your ability points gained at levels into Wis and don't do anythign silly like cast a ton of offensive spells at people.
Be conservative early on, there isn't much you'll face at level 1 that will survive a single hit from you.
No Glory? Bah, oh well. If you want raw damage than Jon has it right. Destruction and Ferocity basically let you stack smites on top of one another since they're separate bonus types.Lastly take a look at the Alternate channeling for Battle/Wrath adn see if that's up your alley. LEss healing for what is essentially a buff to the party's damage and yours for that matter. It's in UM.
Str:16+2
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Wis: 14
Int: 12
Cha: 14Feats: Improved Initiative, Toughness or Scribe Scroll
Stick all your ability points gained at levels into Wis and don't do anythign silly like cast a ton of offensive spells at people.
Be conservative early on, there isn't much you'll face at level 1 that will survive a single hit from you.
Cool. I'll take scribe scroll I wounld't have tought of that. I love Improved Init for just about everything I play. Toughness I would normally skip but I see the wisdom. He is giving me a minimum 6 on my HP rolls - would that make a difference?
This campaign is coming out of hiatus to replace another game that is ending - so I will be 8th level when we start. I'll put the 2 level points in Wisdom. I was thinking Power Attack, Vital Strike, Augment Summoning for some of the other feats.
My DM is very conservative and new to Pathfinder. Most of his experience is from my not-conservative campaign. My point is he only aware of UM because I told him about it recently. I am pretty sure he won't be allowing it.
Cool. I'll take scribe scroll I wounld't have tought of that. I love Improved Init for just about everything I play. Toughness I would normally skip but I see the wisdom. He is giving me a minimum 6 on my HP rolls - would that make a difference?This campaign is coming out of hiatus to replace another game that is ending - so I will be 8th level when we start. I'll put the 2 level points in Wisdom. I was thinking Power Attack, Vital Strike, Augment Summoning for some of the other feats.
Augment summoning is a two feat investment and I think unless you reallly really want it you should skip it since clerics get ntohign to boost it unlike other classes. I like the idea of Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Vital Strike as a combo. You'll be hitting like a truck on your first attack of the round. Scribe Scroll is there to help you cover the surprises out there. You're not memorizing anywhere near the same crap you did as a healslave but that doesn't mean you won't need it and the feat will let you keep a stockpile of emergency spells. You can live without toughness but because of what will tne to be a rather low AC I like to have plenty of hit points. So it's a matter of taste.
Augment summoning is a two feat investment and I think unless you reallly really want it you should skip it since clerics get ntohign to boost it unlike other classes. I like the idea of Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Vital Strike as a combo. You'll be hitting like a truck on your first attack of the round. Scribe Scroll is there to help you cover the surprises out there. You're not memorizing anywhere near the same crap you did as a healslave but that doesn't mean you won't need it and the feat will let you keep a stockpile of emergency spells. You can live without toughness but because of what will tne to be a rather low AC I like to have plenty of hit points. So it's a matter of taste.
OK no Augment Summoning. My AC is pretty bad so Toughness it is.
I had Furious Focus initially, but then I thought since Power Attack is only giving me -2 right now, maybe I could use the feat for something else. Too short-sighted? Am I under estimating the effect of the -2?
Also I was thinking if I am going to go with a low dex, perhaps I should take Heavy Armor prof? I will miss the 30 move though, so I am still on the fence about that too.
-2 is commonly seen as -10%.
I'm not sure why since that ignores any other bonuses or penalties to a roll, but thems the common wisdom.
-2 is commonly seen as -10%.
I'm not sure why since that ignores any other bonuses or penalties to a roll, but thems the common wisdom.
I look at it more like gaining +2 that scales with level.
Remember you're not a fighter, paladin, or ranger, who can get away with a -2 and still be swinging pretty good. You have a smaller bab progression.
You're too feat starved for heavy armor proficiency. You're nto going to be much of a tank in terms of eating damage, but you can certainly dish it out which often is equally preventative.
Like I said Toughness vs. Scribe Scroll is a toss up.
-2 is commonly seen as -10%.
I'm not sure why since that ignores any other bonuses or penalties to a roll, but thems the common wisdom.
I look at it more like gaining +2 that scales with level.
Remember you're not a fighter, paladin, or ranger, who can get away with a -2 and still be swinging pretty good. You have a smaller bab progression.
You're too feat starved for heavy armor proficiency. You're nto going to be much of a tank in terms of eating damage, but you can certainly dish it out which often is equally preventative.
Like I said Toughness vs. Scribe Scroll is a toss up.
OK got it. Power Attack, Furious Focus, Imp Init, Scribe Scroll, and Vital Strike.
Destruction and Ferocity.
I will have to wait until Oct to play him, maybe later. So I will use him as an enemy NPC vs the evil party in my campaign as a try out.
Thanks.
Dude your after raw damage?
Take Destruction (Rage) Subdomain- You still get destructive smite, rage and 2 free rage powers. Hint: Take Reckless Abandon and Moment of Clarity.
This gives you (By 20) +2 Hit/Damage from rage, +3 to hit from reckless abandon as a FREE Action you can use right after that prepped quickened divinepower for total +11 to hit, +8 to damage with zero prep time.
I'd Take the good domain (archon) as the other one. Use that one round prep to standard drop all enemy AC'S/Saves by -2. Your party will love it.
Don't Forget Raging Vitality- more HP and takes care of the whole 'die if you go unconscious raging' bit.
Allowable domains for me are Good, Destruction, Strength, War and th to fight as well as I can without dipping into any other classes.
Favored weapon is bastard sword. I know, sweet right?
No Glory? Bah, oh well. If you want raw damage than Jon has it right. Destruction and Ferocity basically let you stack smites on top of one another since they're separate bonus types.
Lastly take a look at the Alternate channeling for Battle/Wrath adn see if that's up your alley. LEss healing for what is essentially a buff to the party's damage and yours for that matter. It's in UM.
Looks like Ragathiel is his deity. Basically a kick a$$ goodly god of vengeance. Like Imodae bit doesn't have to play nice.
What is the Alternative Channel Battle/Wrath, my copy of UM has not reached Australia yet....
Allowable domains for me are Good, Destruction, Strength, War and th to fight as well as I can without dipping into any other classes.
Favored weapon is bastard sword. I know, sweet right?
No Glory? Bah, oh well. If you want raw damage than Jon has it right. Destruction and Ferocity basically let you stack smites on top of one another since they're separate bonus types.
Lastly take a look at the Alternate channeling for Battle/Wrath adn see if that's up your alley. LEss healing for what is essentially a buff to the party's damage and yours for that matter. It's in UM.
Looks like Ragathiel is his deity. Basically a kick a$$ goodly god of vengeance. Like Imodae bit doesn't have to play nice.
What is the Alternative Channel Battle/Wrath, my copy of UM has not reached Australia yet....
Actually it is a home brew game.
Coincidence?
Ragathiel is in the Pathfinder Wiki. Same Domains and Favored Weapon.
Take Destruction (Rage) Subdomain- You still get destructive smite
In any situation where the pc's outnumber the enemmy, destructive aura is going to give you more bang for the buck. Against a solo BBEG, its literally amazing.
Agreed. I like rage better for the 'selfish' battle cleric....
Agreed. I like rage better for the 'selfish' battle cleric....
I honestly don't believe in selfish characters myself, not entirely selfish anyway. Rage grants you some nice boosts certainly even if it does cost you spellcasting while doing it.
However the aura provides for soe hilarious situations involving archery focused rangers, blasting sorcerers, and dual kukri wielding fighters.
Agreed. I like rage better for the 'selfish' battle cleric....I honestly don't believe in selfish characters myself, not entirely selfish anyway. Rage grants you some nice boosts certainly even if it does cost you spellcasting while doing it.
However the aura provides for soe hilarious situations involving archery focused rangers, blasting sorcerers, and dual kukri wielding fighters.
I can’t really play a selfish character either. It was sad what a healbot (a new term to me) I was before the hiatus. I just want to be less bored that I was before. I love to roleplay, but I also need to be truly effective in combat to be happy.
Turns out I overstated my available domains. They are - Destruction (Catastrophe), Strength (Ferocity, Resolve), War (Blood). Based on the advice - I am thinking Destruction and Ferocity.
I am a little disappointed in the domain spell choice thus far. My 4th level choices are Spell Immunity and Inflict Critical, 3rd level is Rage only (can’t cast while raging right?). But there are a few hot spells down the line so I will stick it out.
Clerics are new to me. I normally play Fighter/Rogue TWF types. This is an attempt to play something different, and religion plays a major role in this campaign.
Just a suggestion since you're wanting to play a battle cleric, have you looked at the Holy Vindicator PrC? You can still progress your cleric spellcasting, albeit at a slightly slower pace, in exchange for a full BAB and martial weapon/heavy armor proficiency. The cleric in one of the campaigns I'm in is planning on going Holy Vindicator once his Cleric is 7th level, since you need +5 BAB to qualify for the class.
Just a suggestion since you're wanting to play a battle cleric, have you looked at the Holy Vindicator PrC? You can still progress your cleric spellcasting, albeit at a slightly slower pace, in exchange for a full BAB and martial weapon/heavy armor proficiency. The cleric in one of the campaigns I'm in is planning on going Holy Vindicator once his Cleric is 7th level, since you need +5 BAB to qualify for the class.
You know I had originally taken 8th level as Holy Vindicator. I was going to take on for 9th as well. It seemed like an obvious move for a battle cleric. Somehow my GM talked me out of it.
He was fine with the choice, but he did not feel it was the best path for me. I can't completely recall why now. For my GM it was probably the loss of a spellcasting level, and for me is was the longer wait for 5th level spells.
I am going to look at it again.
I have to admit that I don't find Stigmata aesthetically pleasing… kind of gross.
Definately Take 8th level cleric first. Those level 8 domain powers are usually pretty sweet.
Incidently if you want Max personal AND Party DPR you might be better off playing a Human Inquisitor.
They Kick a$$ better than any cleric (access to divine power, judgements, Gtr Bane),
Still get a domain (re: Destruction Aura for your party vs BBEG)
and the human bonus spells should allow you enough spells know to get all the fighty/buffy spells you want with the relevant healing spells to boot.
|
|
3 or less encounters per day.
Inquisitor>Cleric>Oracle
4 or more encounters per day.
Oracle>Inquisitor>Cleric
The more encounters per day you have. The more you find out the oracle lacks in up front. They make up for in staying power. So if your going with mostly 3 or less encounters per day Inquisitor and Clerics are better. If your doing 4+ the Oracle is better.
It realy depends on your partys make up. Group that hase a caster in it cleric is better. Group with out full caster in it oracle is better. My group runs combat heavy for most games. 5 players: 3 will be some type of combat class, we will get some one to play the bard, and some one will play cleric/druid/oracle.
It realy depends on your partys make up. Group that hase a caster in it cleric is better. Group with out full caster in it oracle is better.
I completely disagree. Cleric is much better as the only caster.
1) Utility spells: Sometimes before actually going to adventure site group wants to magically get more prepared. Cleric can switch Scrying, Divination etc. for the duration of spying. Also Wind Walk can replace Teleport for high level movement.
2) Saves. The reasoning that after party has been struck by an evil effect Oracle can as well as Cleric read the scroll and solve situation is quite wrong. Why? Because Oracles saves generally suck he is likely to be the first one to fall to tricks. Cleric has one of the toughest saves thanks to the importance of Wisdom (witch is one of Oracles natural dump stats). To add the insult Dwarves are quite good clerics and add further the gap. Clerics saves are total +4-+16 better than Oracles at the start and gain about +8 more during adventure path. Also some Clric domains help with saves (like Luck) and Community even lets Cleric share the saves with the group.
|
|
Hello everyone!
So I'm having some difficulty with character creation. I have never rolled a cleric before, and am somewhat new to DND. I have no problem being a cleric, the only problem is I am worried about becoming incredibly bored in a position as a simple "healbot."
So, I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on a good way to balance damage-dealing and healing. I dont want to just go straight malice cleric as the party still needs healing done, but as stated earlier I want to do more than just heal.
Are there any suggestions on domains, deity, feats, spells, etc?
With channel, heal bot isn't as much an issue anymore. Plus remember you can change any spell into a heal so you'll have it if you need it.
Start with a concept and work backwards from there. I suggest reading up on the gods and find on you like and it will all shake out for which domains to pick from there.
|
|
It realy depends on your partys make up. Group that hase a caster in it cleric is better. Group with out full caster in it oracle is better.I completely disagree. Cleric is much better as the only caster.
1) Utility spells: Sometimes before actually going to adventure site group wants to magically get more prepared. Cleric can switch Scrying, Divination etc. for the duration of spying. Also Wind Walk can replace Teleport for high level movement.
2) Saves. The reasoning that after party has been struck by an evil effect Oracle can as well as Cleric read the scroll and solve situation is quite wrong. Why? Because Oracles saves generally suck he is likely to be the first one to fall to tricks. Cleric has one of the toughest saves thanks to the importance of Wisdom (witch is one of Oracles natural dump stats). To add the insult Dwarves are quite good clerics and add further the gap. Clerics saves are total +4-+16 better than Oracles at the start and gain about +8 more during adventure path. Also some Clric domains help with saves (like Luck) and Community even lets Cleric share the saves with the group.
You can disagree. But we run combat heavy characters in my group all the time. The oracle of battle dose better then any of the clerics we have hade. The cleric suffers from a lack of castings per day and specal abilitys per day. Keaping them limited to how usefull they are after the first few encounters. Oracle dose the same thing but hase not run out of spells to keap his to hit and damage up. Untill the group is ready to stop. Normal when the bard runs out of songs. Or when it in game time makes them rest to not be fatagued.
You can disagree. But we run combat heavy characters in my group all the time. The oracle of battle dose better then any of the clerics we have hade. The cleric suffers from a lack of castings per day and specal abilitys per day. Keaping them limited to how usefull they are after the first few encounters. Oracle dose the same thing but hase not run out of spells to keap his to hit and damage up. Untill the group is ready to stop. Normal when the bard runs out of songs. Or when it in game time makes them rest to not be fatagued.
I can agree that Oracle of Battle does greater damage in the long run (mainly because of the extra feats from Weapon Mastery). Battle Cleric can easily be sidetracked to the nova domains like Destruction (only a few attacks worth / day), since those domains have the most battle oriented names. The best domain for Battle Cleric (=Demon) is usaully not available & the second best (=Growth) is not so obvious by the name. Usually the lack of the Demon domain should mean Cleric is going to be at least party support person. This means the 2nd domain should be about support in optimatization sense. But you seem completely disregard defense:
Lets assume Oracle of Battle takes Weapon Mastery at the first level. Now he has effectively mastercrafted weapon over the Cleric for the first 7 levels. But Cleric has effectively Cloak of Resistance +2 simply because of the inherent abilities (=better Fort & Will saves) over Oracle (yes I've seen your build posted and compared to TarkXT's build). My claim is that Cloak of Resistance +2 is simply much better equipment in the long run than Masterwork Weapon.
-----
Lack of spells & abilities:
Since Cleric gains Spell levels quicker he has at some levels same number of spells as does Oracle. Now Cleric has limited number of daily uses for Domain abilities to patch that up (Oracle doesn't).
-----
So what is left in the difference for the first 6 levels?
Oracle gets Revelation at the 3rd level. Well that is obviously Weapon Mastery. That leaves Cleric 2 feats short (=Heavy Armor & Weapon of choice). However clever Cleric Deity selection gives the martial weapon proficiency. Currently I think best choices are reach weapons (or Bow) that allows you to skip heavy Armor completely. Now its ok to assume that Cleirc is still one feat short as Cleirc still has one ability that has now been counted: Channel Energy. I think its best used as off combat healing. Still it increases Clerics support value as one saved Cure Light Wounds wand means one useful wand for he Cleric for support purposes.
-----
As for non-combat abilities Cleric has lots more support for that section from Spells, Oracle has more skills.
-----
All in all I think they are pretty even. Cleric is much harder to build, because the build needs deep look into deities & domains. On the other hand I think that because of that (=many options) Cleric can be optimized a but further.
We play quite heavy combats also (and are wargamers in our other hobby), numerical optimatization being accepted.
Just a suggestion since you're wanting to play a battle cleric, have you looked at the Holy Vindicator PrC? You can still progress your cleric spellcasting, albeit at a slightly slower pace, in exchange for a full BAB and martial weapon/heavy armor proficiency. The cleric in one of the campaigns I'm in is planning on going Holy Vindicator once his Cleric is 7th level, since you need +5 BAB to qualify for the class.
And burn a feat for that.
|
|
Hello everyone!
So I'm having some difficulty with character creation. I have never rolled a cleric before, and am somewhat new to DND. I have no problem being a cleric, the only problem is I am worried about becoming incredibly bored in a position as a simple "healbot."
So, I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on a good way to balance damage-dealing and healing. I dont want to just go straight malice cleric as the party still needs healing done, but as stated earlier I want to do more than just heal.
Are there any suggestions on domains, deity, feats, spells, etc?
In addition to what was said in other posts, all of it interesting takes, I will give you the results of a few calculations I did to help a fellow player choose what his new healing PC will be.
First, I chose to look only at the Classes with Channel because I have always been impressed by its efficiency both to heal and to deal damage.
I took a number of hypotheses in my calculations, which I will not detail here, and looked only at the amount of HP a PC could heal in a single day at level 4 and level 10.
Level 4 :
- Cleric with Healing domain : 234 HP healed
- Oracle with Life mystery : 231.5
- Cleric without Healing domain : 199
- Paladin : 49
Level 10 :
- Oracle with Life mystery : 1332
- Cleric with Healing domain : 1262,5
- Cleric without Healing domain : 978,5
- Paladin : 350
My conclusion :
- The Oracle of Life will be the best healer, especially since his revelations make him very good at it. BUT he is only good at healing and almost nothing else
- The Cleric with Healing domain will come a very close second but will have more diversity in his abilities thanks to both the many spells available to him and his second domain
- The Cleric without the Healing domain is no slouch either and gets even more diversity for having 2 domains' powers which are centered on something other than healing
- The Paladin cannot play the healer role all by himself. But he could be viable in a team where most PCs have some degree of healing magic
Of course, the choice for the kind of PC's role in the group is still up to you. It really depens on how much of a focus you want to give to your healing role.
To get more out of your Channel ability, I advise you to take feats that diversify what you get out of it. For example, Turn Undead gives you more options than just dealing damage to the undead. And if your alignment and your god meet its prerequisites, Versatile Channeler (from Ultimate Magic) will let you use both positive and negative energy. Of course, Selective Channeling will be necessary first.
Every class can be a lot of fun to play. Concerning the Cleric, you just have to avoid the twin pitfalls of the Healbot and the Waste of Space. Have fun :-)