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I'm a little confused on how this would be adjudicated (Core 269).
Saving Throw none and Will negates (object);
Spell Resistance no and yes (object)
Which of the following statement are true:
1) Unwilling targets can roll a Will save.
2) Unwilling targets do NOT get a Will save.
3) Caster must by-pass unwilling target's SR.
4) Caster does NOT need to by-pass unwilling target's SR.
In addition to the above, can you teleport into mid-air within the spell's range? (e.g. 680ft. in the air)
Oh Yay! You don't know it but you just gave me another opportunity to harp on one of my favorite points! THANK YOU!
Read the magic section of the book (that's the point of the harping, not a direct command).
Now the section in question:
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
There you go.
Also about the willing part, from the spell:
You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels.
So all of your statements are false. The following is true:
All creatures transported by this spell must be willing. Objects that are transported are allowed a safe throw (if entitled to one and the object wants to make one) and if it has spell resistance the spell resistance applies against this spell.
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Thanks for pointing out the willing part on the creature I totally missed that.
So as a follow-up, if I and my target are flying can I teleport in Mid-air since our weight is supported when we arrive?
Furthermore, if my target is Charmed or was Suggested could they be considered a willing target?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Thanks for pointing out the willing part on the creature I totally missed that.
So as a follow-up, if I and my target are flying can I teleport in Mid-air since our weight is supported when we arrive?
Nope, because you're still "floating in an empty space" even if you have the power of flight.
Nope, because you're still "floating in an empty space" even if you have the power of flight.Thanks for pointing out the willing part on the creature I totally missed that.
So as a follow-up, if I and my target are flying can I teleport in Mid-air since our weight is supported when we arrive?
I'm going in the opposite direction since the air in this case is a surface that can support you.
This thread reminds me of when I was a little munchkin playing 2nd Edition, discovering the broken world of `skill-based` Psionic cheese, using it`s version of Dimension Door
(w/ none of these silly restrictions like willing targets or supporting surfaces)
to `zap` enemies straight up at max range before seeing what shape they make when flattened.
Oh the good old days...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'm going in the opposite direction since the air in this case is a surface that can support you.Nope, because you're still "floating in an empty space" even if you have the power of flight.Thanks for pointing out the willing part on the creature I totally missed that.
So as a follow-up, if I and my target are flying can I teleport in Mid-air since our weight is supported when we arrive?
To each their own. If you're interested, though:
"Midair" is pretty much the dictionary definition of an "empty space," and the power to fly, whether natural or magical, does not involve having a surface beneath you. It enables you to move WITHIN an empty space; it doesn't change the characteristics of the space at all.
The space is still empty.
The fact that you have the ability to float/fly/hover/stand within it is irrelevant to its emptiness.
I guess it`s possible to say that air can support you (if you are using natural flight),
but air (as in `mid-air`) is definitely not a `surface` by my book... or the dictionary:
sur·face (sûrfs)
n.
1.
a. The outer or the topmost boundary of an object.
b. A material layer constituting such a boundary.
Even viewing air and liquids as equivalent, a homogenous volume does not comprise any sort of `surface`, a surface is the boundary between two different substances, and essentially is referencing a relative solidity (e.g. surface of water, between air and water), i.e. there is no surface OF the water at the bottom of the sea, that is a surface of the sea-bed land mass.
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Like you said to each their own, but I refuse to believe that midair is empty space, since it has air there, and the air literally supports the flyer -- especially with mechanical flight. Air elementals, bralani, and other creatures with perfect maneuverability should be just as at home in mid air as they are on the ground -- I have a hard time thinking an air elemental needs to rest on the ground.
In fact with your definition you could never teleport or plane shift with a conjuration spell to the elemental plane of air without introducing land in it first (or some cloud based equivalent).
Air (in my opinion) is nothing more than a liquid with a very low density.
Like you said to each their own, but I refuse to believe that midair is empty space, since it has air there, and the air literally supports the flyer -- especially with mechanical flight. Air elementals, bralani, and other creatures with perfect maneuverability should be just as at home in mid air as they are on the ground -- I have a hard time thinking an air elemental needs to rest on the ground.
But magical flight works just fine in a vacuum (EXTREMELY empty space) as well, right? I can see how that is wierd re: elemental plane of air, but that IS what the spell says, whether that conflicts with the idea of a plane of existence without any solid surfaces is another issue.
It`s really not that surprising, given the number of other areas of the rules which seem to some-how assume a 2D plane of `game play` even though the game clearly exists in a 3D world. I will hit the FAQ button in the futile hope that Errata manifest from the ether....
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Like you said to each their own, but I refuse to believe that midair is empty space, since it has air there, and the air literally supports the flyer -- especially with mechanical flight. Air elementals, bralani, and other creatures with perfect maneuverability should be just as at home in mid air as they are on the ground -- I have a hard time thinking an air elemental needs to rest on the ground.
Actually... teleportation is no more "natural" to an air elemental than it is to a human, so I wouldn't argue that there's anything inherent in teleportation that would be different for an air elemental or water elemental or fire elemental or dire wombat that would be different from what it would be for a human.
But, reasonable people disagree about things.
In fact with your definition you could never teleport or plane shift with a conjuration spell to the elemental plane of air without introducing land in it first (or some cloud based equivalent).
That is correct.
Air (in my opinion) is nothing more than a liquid with a very low density.
Of course, you could argue that the "floating" bit in the prohibition on teleporting applies to floating in water too, disallowing teleportation into or onto water. The space is less "empty" per se than air, but still empty of solid objects. To wit - you can teleport onto an island or a ship (or even a raft), but not out into the middle of the ocean or 5 miles down in an oceanic trench (though you could to the very bottom of the trench).
All of this is an argument about technicalities, though. The real question the OP was asking is:
"Can I use teleportation to kill someone (preferably with no saving throw or SR) by teleporting somewhere dangerous to them but not to me and then dropping them?"
The rational gamist answer to this question is no.
But, if it makes your game more fun for you and your players (if you're the GM) or your GM allows it and you're fine with him doing it to you (if you're a player), then go for it!
All of this is an argument about technicalities, though. The real question the OP was asking is:"Can I use teleportation to kill someone (preferably with no saving throw or SR) by teleporting somewhere dangerous to them but not to me and then dropping them?"
The rational gamist answer to this question is no.
I'm glad this is not the case. It seemed like there was a glaring hole if the spell did NOT require a willing target.
But what about the target being Charmed or Suggested?
Furthermore, if my target is Charmed or was Suggested could they be considered a willing target?I don't think people under a charm or compulsion effect are considered willing, since you are compelling/controlling them with magic.
Hmm...ok. Then what about Dominate Person?
Hmm...ok. Then what about Dominate Person?Furthermore, if my target is Charmed or was Suggested could they be considered a willing target?I don't think people under a charm or compulsion effect are considered willing, since you are compelling/controlling them with magic.
They are still being controlled with magic. Dominate does not make you want to do something. It only makes you do it so they are still not willing.
you could create a horizontal wall of X waaay up in the air teleport you and the charmed enemy up there since its a solid surface, then proceed to dispel your wall of X . Hapless enemy goes tumbling down.
just on charmed I believe if the spell effects the attitude of the person toward you on the pesduo diplo chat scale , hostile -> helpful then you could argue they are willing because at that stage they believe they want to help you, not just being forced to help you.
Witch charm Hex is a good example moving subject 2 steps more freindly
Although baring that insane chain of events
Cast reverse gravity , bingo, enemy way up in the air and then they fall down and go boom.
I think what your looking for is the Ork Mek's Reactive Teleport armor,
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually- but not always- obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
I don't see how this excludes the caster teleporting HIMSELF into empty space.
How about someone who is asleep or unconscious?
How about someone who is asleep or unconscious?
I think if you are unconscious you are automatically considered willing to spells that are (harmless).
PRD
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
PRD
(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires.
I'm a little confused on how this would be adjudicated (Core 269).
Saving Throw none and Will negates (object);
Spell Resistance no and yes (object)Which of the following statement are true:
1) Unwilling targets can roll a Will save.
2) Unwilling targets do NOT get a Will save.
3) Caster must by-pass unwilling target's SR.
4) Caster does NOT need to by-pass unwilling target's SR.In addition to the above, can you teleport into mid-air within the spell's range? (e.g. 680ft. in the air)
Have to say that if the creature HAD to be willing to be teleported there wouldn't be a will save.
Unwilling creatures get a will save and if they fail they teleport.
Oh, an excellent sale.
Thread Necromancy isn't just profitable, it's also ethical.
It's a good first step to remove the the unfortunate bias against Necromancy and undead.
Thus we show our support.
Have to say that if the creature HAD to be willing to be teleported there wouldn't be a will save.Unwilling creatures get a will save and if they fail they teleport.
That's probably why there isn't one for creatures.
Saving Throw and Will negates (object);
Aka, only willing creatures can be teleported/dimension doored.
Objects, which are neither willing nor unwilling, do get a save.