Being able to cast a such a low number of spells spontaneously does not make you a sorcerer, especially not a better one if you are spending so many feats to do so. While you are doing a poor imitation of the sorcerer he is using his options to excel at what comes naturally.
Except he doesn't even excel at it -- and I'm sorry I didn't know that "more spells known" was somehow less.
The issue isn't that the sorcerer isn't a sorcerer -- it has become the question of "who isn't?"
He has nothing unique, his very class abilities have been pimped out for feats of all things -- and his supposed 'superior' method of casting (oh yay I have one spell of this level -- I'm versatile!) has been given away as well in the form of a magic item, and feats.
It wasn't bad enough that most his abilities duplicated low level common spells -- or gave abilities that are useless -- now everyone can cherry pick them as well.
If you have to spend >500,000 to make the characters equivalent in some fashion then you have failed. Strip the Sorc and the Wiz naked and put 'em on an island and who wins? It's the Sorc, every time, and it ain't close. Saying that you can spend a bunch of money to make an uber character simply fails to be convincing.
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So again I ask you -- what is unique about the sorcerer? What is it about the sorcerer that is now somehow special?
He is an arcane spontaneous full-caster. That is special, even unique. They are fun to play, and amongst my fellow-players there is at least as many who prefers sorcerers as wizards.
You mention that others haven't proven anything... What exactly have you proven? That by spending almost all his resources (feats and gp) you can make a wizard with the spontaneous casting capabilities of a sorcerer. You haven't shown that said wizards becomes 'better' than the sorcerer at anything other than sheer versatility. And yes the wizard is more versatile than the sorcerer, that is hardly a revelation.
What can the sorcerer do that your spontaneous wizard cannot do? He can specialize, and get certain spell DCs to a level your wizard could even dream of. He can't do as many things, but those that he can, he is going to do better.
Ok so lets reduce this then:
Human Generalist wizard
Arcane Bond(amulet)
Equipment: Amulet of magecraft
Now I have 123 spells that I 'know' for spontaneous casting -- and look all I've spent is 10,000gp.
In fact it's a bit of a false statement saying I spent 500k+ on spontaneous casting -- that is in fact not true -- I spent 500k+ on extra spell slots. I could just as easily not buy the pearls of power (personally I wouldn't buy them -- I always seem to end the day with slots left over even as a generalist anyways).
So the sorcerer can supposedly specialize -- on what though? A single spell with high DC? Alright that's his choice -- of course by the same token we had better hope that no one has any sort of defense against that spell -- say protection from spells, mind blank, or anything else that would stop said sorcerer from using his one trick.
Ok so lets reduce this then:
Human Generalist wizard
Arcane Bond(amulet)
Equipment: Amulet of magecraftNow I have 123 spells that I 'know' for spontaneous casting -- and look all I've spent is 10,000gp.
In fact it's a bit of a false statement saying I spent 500k+ on spontaneous casting -- that is in fact not true -- I spent 500k+ on extra spell slots. I could just as easily not buy the pearls of power (personally I wouldn't buy them -- I always seem to end the day with slots left over even as a generalist anyways).
So the sorcerer can supposedly specialize -- on what though? A single spell with high DC? Alright that's his choice -- of course by the same token we had better hope that no one has any sort of defense against that spell -- say protection from spells, mind blank, or anything else that would stop said sorcerer from using his one trick.
1) The sorcerer will not be restricted in only casting spontaneously from one school a day. This limit on the wizard means that he isn't that much of a spontaneous caster as you work him up to be.
2) The sorcerer is going to be casting more spells unless you use an insane amount of gold on pearls.3) You need to have learned all the spells that exist. In theory this should be a problem and not 'too' costly. In a real game, this might not be feasible.
4) Being specialized is more likely going to be a school/subschools rather than one single spell. And yes, there is always situations where certain spells are useless, but the sorcerer is going to have other tricks as well (while not having as many as the wizard, they are going to be just as good).
5) The wizard if trying to keep par with the specialized sorcerer, has to prepare a lot of his spells in the school in question, thus giving up much of the versatility he is famous for.
6) At the end of the day, with the same feats and items, a specialized sorcerer is in most cases going to better than a wizard specialized in the same thing. Marginally better, but better still.
(Incidentally, I've never seen, much less had, a metamagic rod. Sure, sticking to low levels can do that, but more importantly, I've played in a lot of groups that ban them.)Wow. What drives the groups to ban those?
I haven't banned them, but they really are ridiculously cheap. As for comparisons with "core-ness" on them, it's worth noting they were not in the 3.0 DMG. They caught on quickly, precisely because of how cheap they are considering the benefit provided, as well as how they let a caster go (well) beyond their normal casting ability.
The wizard if trying to keep par with the specialized sorcerer, has to prepare a lot of his spells in the school in question, thus giving up much of the versatility he is famous for.
This one doesn't follow -- after all I have the entire school without having to prepare any of them. I kind see some of the rest but honestly it still isn't anything that any full caster can't already do.
I really do not see how you can claim that a sorcerer will some how specialize better than the wizard does -- a possible exception existed in the arcane bloodline in the past -- but with the bloodline powers now open for everyone and the wizard's better access to feats, spells, and other abilities I'm not sure how the sorcerer is going to out specialize the wizard -- especially when the generalist wizard can metamagic on top of his spell perfection for free.
Also:
I don't see the wizard needing as many spells to spontaneous cast as the sorcerer needs in the first place -- After all he still has the versatility of preparing his spells.
If I was going to go about this build a bit more 'honestly' I would probably take fewer spell focus and spell specialization feats (I would probably stick to 4~5 of them), take eschew materials, the eldritch heritage feats, and honestly forget about the pearls of power (again I've never been able to run out of spells past 7th level with a full caster).
Since I can still prep spells in general the spells I would specialize in would be spells of versatility or common usage anyways allowing my normal prepared slots to handle things I normally might not take since I have the freedom of knowing I can trade them out if need be (either with the amulet, or with the greater spell specialization and metamagic feats).
A short list of spells I would consider for making into spontaneous spells would include:
Dragon's Breath -- as far as damaging spells goes this one really takes the cake for versatility of use, both for different damage types, and for different shapes to use it in.
Haste -- A great fall back that never is wrong in my opinion.
Summon Monster 'n' -- with n being about the second or third highest spell level I can cast (leaves myself room to metamagic it, or do other things)
Teleportation, D.Door, Greater Teleportation -- Not sure which I would honestly want but one of these would be a good choice.
Disintegrate -- mostly for its ability beyond combat, lots of times a simple disintegrate can handle an issue -- worse comes to worse it is untyped damage as well (though not as grand as some other choices).
Polymorph, Greater Polymorph, Shapechange -- something on these lines allows me to ignore many spells I might otherwise want, at least short term. I can get flight, energy resistance, more armor, immunity to criticals/sneak attacks, or a whole host of other powers... or I can give them to someone else. If you think the wizard is neat polymorphed wait until it's the barbarian hitting you with all those natural attacks.
I'm sure if I spent more time thinking about it I would find other choices instead -- but as stands those are good 'fall back' spells for almost any situation.
Which is just my thing:
A wizard does fine simply preparing his spells in most cases. Many times he'll simply cast what he has prepared and that's good sometimes he used to be caught without the right spell but that was okay... now not so much -- he can simply have the answer (a limited use spell) prepared and trade it out for a different answer whenever he wants.
Adding this capability to his already large power base is simply much, much more than is needed -- especially compared to the way the sorcerer keeps having everything about it pimped out, or poo-poo'ed away because, "spontaneous casting is so powerful".
I agree spontaneous casting *can* be powerful -- but what's the point if you aren't actually spontaneous with it, or don't have any actual versatility because you only have one spell of the highest spell level you can cast, and 2 of then next highest?
That isn't 'spontaneous' it's "I can do 'y' this many times today."
Don't get discouraged Abe, I see and agree with your points.
I want to like the Sorcerer, like I want to like the Monk, but pre-UM Wizard was clearly better and now a Wiz can even encroach upon the Sor's territory. They are now like the Cleric, everyone else can do what they do, there's nothing left that's unique for them.
I think your mistake was naming this thread like you did. It's not about out Sorcerer-ing the Sorcerer, it's about the fact that their role has been made redundant. Spontaneous casting never matched the Wizard's method before, and now the Wizard can gain spontaneous casts when he needs.
The wizard if trying to keep par with the specialized sorcerer, has to prepare a lot of his spells in the school in question, thus giving up much of the versatility he is famous for.This one doesn't follow -- after all I have the entire school without having to prepare any of them.
It is because amulet of magecraft only allows you to convert prepared spells of the same school into spontaneous spells from that school. So you have to prepare a decent amount of transmutation spells if that is the school you choose for spontaneous use.
Greater spell specialization gives you more flexibility with the spells.
Preferred spell did it better, since you don't change casting time despite applying metamagic feats, but if you want to have multiple spontaneous spells, Specialization would possibly be cheapest in feats (depending on same or different schools), and carry additional benefits.
I agree with your basic premise: That amulet of magecraft as well as some of the new feats/items gives wizards something that they probably shouldn't have.
But I really can't see it as making the sorcerer obsolete, or letting the wizard do everything the sorcerer can.
I think a lot of the contention in this thread has arisen from that claim, compared to simply stating: Isn't granting spontaneous casting to wizards a bad idea?
Concerning your initial build and stated intent to out-Sorc the Sorc, the real issue to me is thus - is your initial build fun to play? I don't see playing PF to be about building a character concept that does the X's job better than an X. It's about building a character that is fun to play and overcoming the challenges the GM throws our way.
And, actually, I have a player who might enjoy playing this build immensely - she had a blast with a gestalted Wiz/Sorc under 3.5. I want to go back over it and review it carefully, but I think your build may well be right up her alley.
I think HK has it right - your thread bursts into existence, screaming "I have a Wizard that can cast like a Wizard AND a Sorcerer, therefore Sorcerers SUXXORS!!!" and that just naturally raises hackles - unless that was your entire intent; if so, bravo you succeeded. If it wasn't, why not approach it from more of a "Look, I managed to build a Wizard that appears in many respects to out-spontaneously cast a Sorcerer. Should this be remedied?" Makes pot-shots at the messenger a much-reduced occurrence.
Concerning your initial build and stated intent to out-Sorc the Sorc, the real issue to me is thus - is your initial build fun to play? I don't see playing PF to be about building a character concept that does the X's job better than an X. It's about building a character that is fun to play and overcoming the challenges the GM throws our way.
And, actually, I have a player who might enjoy playing this build immensely - she had a blast with a gestalted Wiz/Sorc under 3.5. I want to go back over it and review it carefully, but I think your build may well be right up her alley.
I think HK has it right - your thread bursts into existence, screaming "I have a Wizard that can cast like a Wizard AND a Sorcerer, therefore Sorcerers SUXXORS!!!" and that just naturally raises hackles - unless that was your entire intent; if so, bravo you succeeded. If it wasn't, why not approach it from more of a "Look, I managed to build a Wizard that appears in many respects to out-spontaneously cast a Sorcerer. Should this be remedied?" Makes pot-shots at the messenger a much-reduced occurrence.
Nay I was going for the potshots -- makes people feel better if they see me 'mistaken' every now and then.
Also it was a situation that raised my hackles that much as well -- it is patently absurd the level to which the sorcerer's class abilities and primary class feature has been (I am a bit sorry for continuing to use the term, but it is really the only one that fits to me) pimped out like a cheap prostitute to anyone with two copper pieces and a few feats to spare.
I like the idea that some classes can have some of the neatness that is bloodlines -- I hate the fact that this is achieve by completely ripping off the sorcerer.
I like the fact the wizard is getting some more flexibility -- I hate the fact that it comes at the expense of what made the sorcerer 'special and worthwhile' and that the sorcerer's one 'neat' new thing -- crossblooded -- is such a huge white elephant.
I still feel like they should simply come out and state:
"We screwed up on the sorcerer. We are sorry -- had we fully realized where we would be at this time our initial assessment of the sorcerer's capabilities and need for improvement would have been vastly different. We are going to correct this problem -- and it is a problem -- very shortly."
1) The sorcerer will not be restricted in only casting spontaneously from one school a day. This limit on the wizard means that he isn't that much of a spontaneous caster as you work him up to be.
This is key. A wizard with the pseudo-sorcerer build can cast some of his spells spontaneously. A sorcerer can cast all of this spontaneously. I see this particular wizard as a patchwork sorcerer. As a sorcerer I want to be able to cast spells A-Z right now until I run out of slots. Right now the the best the wizard is giving me is A-F.
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The above wizard has 9 spells he can spontaneously cast and an entire school of magic he can do so from and he can change which school of magic every day. Every time he hits and even level he can change all of his spontaneous spells known out at the same time as opposed to the sorcerer's one spell every even level.In addition he has 6 levels worth of free spontaneous metamagic use per day.
Its a very impressive build. I find most level 19 builds are if designed with an ounce of thought.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'Sorceries.'
Are you saying that the wizard has too many spontaneous spells per day?
I bet that a 19th level sorcerer has more with much less effort.
I consider the wizard and sorcerer to fill the same role of Arcane Caster and to be mostly interchangeable (with of course the sorcerer being less good due to the legacy spontaneous caster penalty of not learning level N spells until caster level 2N).
I haven't banned them, but they really are ridiculously cheap. As for comparisons with "core-ness" on them, it's worth noting they were not in the 3.0 DMG. They caught on quickly, precisely because of how cheap they are considering the benefit provided, as well as how they let a caster go (well) beyond their normal casting ability.
I wonder how many groups think melee characters are superior to spellcasters -- yet these same groups either don't have any casters with metamagic rods or they ban them. . .
I agree with your basic premise: That amulet of magecraft as well as some of the new feats/items gives wizards something that they probably shouldn't have.
But I really can't see it as making the sorcerer obsolete, or letting the wizard do everything the sorcerer can.I think a lot of the contention in this thread has arisen from that claim, compared to simply stating: Isn't granting spontaneous casting to wizards a bad idea?
Yeah that about sums it up for me. I don't like it that the class abilities are now "pimped out" with feats and items. But it's a pretty narrow case for it to happen.
Another thing, I'm a bit tickled that all this discussion is about a universalist wizard -- wasn't that supposed to be the weakest wizard no one plays (and my favorite wizard)?
No, it`s just not as flashy up-front, but by high levels it`s Metamagic ability rocks,
directly encroaching on the `superior spontaneous metamagic` capacities of the Sorceror,
and in effect is upgrading your lower level slots into higher-level ones.
(which is more powerful if you allow the more powerful metamagic feats in APG and UM)
It does require you take those metamagic feats in order to capitalize on it,
though given you have to spend wizard bonus feats on something eligible, metamagic is a pretty good deal.
But other Schools are certainly extremely powerful and playable as well, so Wizard players don`t necessarily focus on Universalist, especially when Specialists get the free crack of bonus spell slots.
Also, in people`s critique of Abe`s build, it seems they`re forgetting the Bonded Item which spontaneously casts any spell in the spellbook from any school, of any level (so it`s an extra max level spell if you want).
I must ask, what really is the point of the spell specs? Depending on how you interpret the amulet, your build either doesn't work, or you don't need to burn any feats on it. If you interpret "any spell you know" to be anything in your spellbook, then the amulet by itself turns the generalist into a better sorcerer. if you interpret it as any spell you can cast spontaneously, then you don't get the entire as promised. If you interpret it as anything you've spent spell mastery on, then you can indeed deliver the full school spontaneity. Nothing seems wrong with the spell specs themselves. It just seems that the amulet is the completely broken thing here.
One, I'd never say that a sorcerer's method of casting was superior, it serves different needs and a different model.
Never claimed you did -- I do point out that many a person has stated, "the sorcerer is fine because all his spells are ready when he wants them -- so he doesn't really need anything else", on a regular basis.
The sorcerer's advantage is flexibility with metamagic. I don't have to worry about whether to prepare a "silent" spell, or dedicate slots to empower. The Wizard's tradeoff is versatility, the wizard advantage is that he can remake himself each day he prepares spells.
Except that the generalist wizard already has better versatility on metamagic. And since he can still remake himself every day -- and have the sorcerer's exact same ability to turn around and cast a limited subset of spells spontaneously with whatever metamagic he wants to pay for (either with a higher spell slot, or his free usage of metamagic) he again has what the sorcerer is supposedly better at. If he does it with preferred spell he doesn't even have to spend the full round action the sorcerer has to spend to do it.
In addition the sorcerer receives fewer bonus feats to get those metamagic feats with, and has less access to metamagic feats with their bonus feats too.
So on all sides the idea that somehow the sorcerer is going to out metamagic the wizard falls flat. He doesn't have the feats to really take the metamagic feats, the feats he does get do not provide the unlimited choice for metamagic feats the wizard's bonus feats do, and the wizard can spontaneously cast the same spell in the same time with the same feat just almost as easily.
Again the wizard doesn't *need* a whole lot of spontaneous casting anyways. If we were to stick to a 'normal' generalist wizard and only grab, say three spell specializations, greater spell specialization and a preferred spell in addition to several metamagic feats (he has room for two~3 by level depending how many schools of magic he needs spell focus for) and his free scribe scroll (again 'normal generalist') in addition to the amulet, he has a wide open choice of what to do when and how he wants.
Because he can optimize his prepared list each day he can save the few spontaneous spells he has for contingency cases -- in effect each spell slot becomes a limited spontaneous spell choice in and of itself -- case the spell prepared, or a spontaneous spell.
It doesn't have to be *much* spontaneous casting to be too much on top of his daily versatility.
Are you saying that spellcasters without access to metamagic rods are inferior to non-caster types?
I'm saying that if the game is balanced around having a certain set of tools, the game most likely breaks when you remove them. . . or you have to compensate in other ways that aren't necessarily intended.
If, for example, a sorcerer were expected to do X single-target DPR to keep up with melee classes at a certain level, it might not be possible to do that without the tools created to help the casters increase their damage. Suddenly casters suck at doing single-target DPR.
By assuming they're not really needed and throwing them away, you may have just broken a character without realizing it. It's hard to know for sure unless you do a bunch of playtesting with and without them, keeping track of average damage output, and comparing the results.
Are you saying that spellcasters without access to metamagic rods are inferior to non-caster types?I'm saying that if the game is balanced around having a certain set of tools, the game most likely breaks when you remove them. . . or you have to compensate in other ways that aren't necessarily intended.
If, for example, a sorcerer were expected to do X single-target DPR to keep up with melee classes at a certain level, it might not be possible to do that without the tools created to help the casters increase their damage. Suddenly casters suck at doing single-target DPR.
By assuming they're not really needed and throwing them away, you may have just broken a character without realizing it. It's hard to know for sure unless you do a bunch of playtesting with and without them, keeping track of average damage output, and comparing the results.
You're making the critical assuming that the game is indeed balanced. My thread over in the homebrew forum argues otherwise.
Arcane Bond works once a day. Once. Your wizard has 9 spells he can cast spontaneously, plus a one-time floater. A sorcerer can cast every single spell she knows spontaneously with incredible frequency, and the Extra Spells favored class bonus alone gives her pretty much all the selection she needs, let alone if she invests in Expanded Arcana as much as you've invested in Spell Specialization.
So, yeah. Not seeing the out-sorcering here. It looks like a solid build, though I imagine at least a few of those Spell Specialization feats could be better spent elsewhere. I don't even necessarily dispute that the Wizard might be a more powerful class than the Sorcerer. But you certainly haven't proved that the Wizard has stolen the Sorcerer's thunder as a spontaneous caster. The Sorcerer has all his spells at his fingertips at any given time. The Wizard has only nine, plus a single one-time incidence of true spontaneity.
EDIT: OK, missed the bit on Amulet of Magecraft. That is a little ridiculous. But I'll join with those who say it's the Amulet alone that's the problem. The Feats and Arcane Bond turn you into a poor man's sorcerer. The Amulet doesn't take you all the way there, but you definitely reach a very comfortable upper middle class at the least.
It's probably worth noting that in general, a sorcerer only gets about +1 spell per day of a given level more than a wizard, and they get those spells a level to late.
Wizard
Most wizards are probably going to specialize. The fact wizards in Pathfinder don't lose access to spells on their opposed schools, and can prepare them using 2 slots, and use magic items such as wands and staffs which they can make themselves, is pretty huge. A wizard, essentially, isn't giving up anything for specialization.
However, their specialization grants them their appropriate school powers, and most importantly, it grants them an extra spell slot per day for their chosen school, so when dealing with any specialized Wizard, you should be reading their spell chart as X+1.
Sorcerer
The sorcerer gets spontaneous casting, and appears to get a lot more spells per day than wizards, but this usually isn't the case. Additionally, their spells known is far more limited (but PF helped with bloodline spells, which generally end up giving you an extra spell 2 levels after you could have gotten it normally).
The sorcerer boasts a very nice 3 spells per day at the level they gain access to their spells, and up to 6 spells per day maximum. So much more than the wizard, that their raw spellcasting power cannot be rivaled, right? Wrong.
The Breakdown
Let's use 5th and 6th level for our comparisons, shall we? It's when spellcasters really begin coming into their own and begin getting 3rd level spells.
At 5th level, the wizard gets 1+1 3rd level spells. The sorcerer gets - 3rd level spells this level.
At 6th level, the wizard gets 2+1 3rd level spells. The sorcerer gets 3 3rd level spells.
But wait, 2+1 = 3. So...the wizard actually has 2 more spells per day at 5th level, and equal spells per day at 6th level, and only falls behind the sorcerer by 1 spell per day at higher levels (since the wizard will reach 4+1 vs 6).
So the wizard isn't very far behind after all. Meanwhile, the wizard can expand his/her spell list, and get a lot of utility spells in addition to some staple combat spells, whereas the sorcerer is much harder to build for utility + combat.
So now let's take Preferred Spell and pick our wizard's favorite spells. Now we're not really arguing optimization, so let's just use fireball 'cause it's a classic.
So our sorcerer at 6th level learns Fireball and Dispel Magic.
So let's pretend he's a transmutor. He's got 2+1 spells per day. He prepares haste as his specialized spell, fly, and stinking cloud. He takes Preferred Spell (Fireball).
Our sorcerer knows haste and fireball.
During out adventure, our wizard ends up fighting a horde of goblins, and sacrifices stinking cloud for fireball and wastes them. Our sorcerer does the same.
Later in the adventure, our wizard casts fly to fly over a wall and throw down an anchored rope for his friends, or just flies around using spells like scorching ray 'cause that's what the cool kids are doing. Our sorcerer doesn't.
So then later still, we end up in battle again against a giant. The wizard casts haste on the party, and the sorcerer does the same.
So we come to a 4th fight against a very young white dragon, and the wizard pops a surprise fireball via his bonded item. The sorcerer also casts fireball.
Both are now out of 3rd level spells (not counting bonus spells).
Our wizard cast 4 spells, our sorcerer 3. Our wizard was able to meet more situations, and throw off a pair of fireballs spontaneously.
Meanwhile, this is before factoring things like pearls, scrolls,[i] or [i]wands into the mix. It also doesn't count bonus spells, since both casters would likely have at least +1 bonus spell of 3rd level, which the wizard could have used to prepare an additional 3rd level spell (such as tiny hut, wind wall, or invisibility sphere).
And if the wizard wanted to, he could just dump all his spell slots into throwing fireball over and over and over again until he runs out of spells.
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Before anyone thinks I'm bashing on the sorcerer, don't get me wrong. I like sorcerers. I'm just being impartial. In my own games, sorcerers get their spells at the same rate as wizards (effectively they are treated a +1 level higher for purposes of spells per day and spells known), which helps a lot. However, my friends and I have already been discussing the effects of these new spontaneous options, and they're definitely in the wizard's favor.
On a side note, another house rule I have is allowing spontaneous casters to use pearls of power as well, which helps a lot. The pricing guidelines say it would be the same value for a sorcerer-version as well, and it only seems fair to me.
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The sorcerer gets spontaneous casting, and appears to get a lot more spells per day than wizards, but this usually isn't the case.
Say I'm twelfth level and decide that I have an overmastering urge to just, I dunno, burn a whole city to the ground with napalm, I can do it as a sorc by casting twenty Fireballs. No wands. No Pearls. No prep. Completely random spur-of-the-moment chaos.
Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom!
I haven't read all the way through the whole thread (sorry, we sorcerers are lazy and just want to get on with blowing things up), but I would ask, what feats has the 19th level sorcerer taken? Used all her feats on extra spell knowledge (easily get +2 spells known of every level up to 8th). Maybe she's spent a fortune on magic items for all the spells she needs but doesn't have innately available. Maybe she's taken a bunch of combat feats and is planning to whip you with a two handed sword of doom. Used her superior charisma to sign a pact with an arch-devil. Who knows? Characters that high level are absurdly powerful and any given build will have massive advantages over some other 19th level builds while they'll have massive disadvantages against others. (This is one of the reasons I hate new characters joining games at levels above about fifth - they don't have to go through the early levels where their chosen feats are sucky before they get to the point where they click).
I think sorcerers are a bit underpowered, but they're so much FUN!
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You're making the critical assuming that the game is indeed balanced. My thread over in the homebrew forum argues otherwise.Are you saying that spellcasters without access to metamagic rods are inferior to non-caster types?I'm saying that if the game is balanced around having a certain set of tools, the game most likely breaks when you remove them. . . or you have to compensate in other ways that aren't necessarily intended.
If, for example, a sorcerer were expected to do X single-target DPR to keep up with melee classes at a certain level, it might not be possible to do that without the tools created to help the casters increase their damage. Suddenly casters suck at doing single-target DPR.
By assuming they're not really needed and throwing them away, you may have just broken a character without realizing it. It's hard to know for sure unless you do a bunch of playtesting with and without them, keeping track of average damage output, and comparing the results.
Exactly. The whole idea of optimization theory that full spellcasting classes with unlimited access to spell lists are Tier 1 and non-spellcasters are at most Tier 3 directly suggests that there is general agreement that the spellcasters are more powerful than the non-spellcasters.
Therefore, it is possible that removal of metamagic rods might, in many people's eyes, restore balance, not remove it.
Let's say you were joining a new campaign, and were informed that there would be no metamagic rods. No finding them, no purchasing them, no crafting them. Metamagic feats are still fully available. Would this fact alone make you say, "I was originally planning to play a spellcaster, but if there won't be metamagic rods, I would rather play a non-caster"?
Are metamagic rods really that important? And if so... isn't that a design flaw because it offers a false choice?
You're making the critical assuming that the game is indeed balanced. My thread over in the homebrew forum argues otherwise.
Years and years went into making 3.0->3.5->PF. I know there was a tremendous amount of playtesting and number-crunching for PF alone. To say the game isn't balanced without providing *years* worth of data, including hundreds of playtests involving possibly thousands of people, is like saying the world is going to end tomorrow. . .
Let's say you were joining a new campaign, and were informed that there would be no metamagic rods. No finding them, no purchasing them, no crafting them. Metamagic feats are still fully available. Would this fact alone make you say, "I was originally planning to play a spellcaster, but if there won't be metamagic rods, I would rather play a non-caster"?
Are metamagic rods really that important? And if so... isn't that a design flaw because it offers a false choice?
Let's change that quote around. . .
Let's say you were joining a new campaign, and were informed that there would be no magic weapons. No finding them, no purchasing them, no crafting them. Spells that make weapons magic are still fully available. Would this fact alone make you say, "I was originally planning to play a non-caster, but if there won't be magic weapons, I would rather play a caster"?
Are magic weapons really that important? And if so... isn't that a design flaw because it offers a false choice?
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Let's say you were joining a new campaign, and were informed that there would be no metamagic rods. No finding them, no purchasing them, no crafting them. Metamagic feats are still fully available. Would this fact alone make you say, "I was originally planning to play a spellcaster, but if there won't be metamagic rods, I would rather play a non-caster"?
Are metamagic rods really that important? And if so... isn't that a design flaw because it offers a false choice?
Let's change that quote around. . .
Let's say you were joining a new campaign, and were informed that there would be no magic weapons. No finding them, no purchasing them, no crafting them. Spells that make weapons magic are still fully available. Would this fact alone make you say, "I was originally planning to play a non-caster, but if there won't be magic weapons, I would rather play a caster"?
Are magic weapons really that important? And if so... isn't that a design flaw because it offers a false choice?
If you won't answer my question, I won't answer yours. (Incidentally, I presently play in a campaign with very few magic weapons, so I do have an answer.)
If you won't answer my question, I won't answer yours. (Incidentally, I presently play in a campaign with very few magic weapons, so I do have an answer.)
OK, the answer is:
A melee class doesn't require magic weapons to do what it does. The arguments about DR and high ACs and blah blah blah. . . All unnecessary. A GM could simply lower the CRs of encounters to compensate for not having them, and it would be fine. Also, other magic items (like potions) would be good enough to compensate. Giving melee characters magic weapons *helps balance* the melee characters against comparable CR.
A caster class doesn't require metamagic rods to do what it does. The arguments about not enough damage, not enough oomph to spells, that blasters suck and blah blah blah. . . all unnecessary. A GM could simply lower the CRs of encounters to compensate for not having them, and it would be fine. Also, other magic items (like wands and staffs) would be good enough to compensate. Giving casters metamagic rods *helps balance* the caster characters against comparable CR.
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If you won't answer my question, I won't answer yours. (Incidentally, I presently play in a campaign with very few magic weapons, so I do have an answer.)OK, the answer is:
A melee class doesn't require magic weapons to do what it does. The arguments about DR and high ACs and blah blah blah. . . All unnecessary. A GM could simply lower the CRs of encounters to compensate for not having them, and it would be fine. Also, other magic items (like potions) would be good enough to compensate. Giving melee characters magic weapons *helps balance* the melee characters against comparable CR.
A caster class doesn't require metamagic rods to do what it does. The arguments about not enough damage, not enough oomph to spells, that blasters suck and blah blah blah. . . all unnecessary. A GM could simply lower the CRs of encounters to compensate for not having them, and it would be fine. Also, other magic items (like wands and staffs) would be good enough to compensate. Giving casters metamagic rods *helps balance* the caster characters against comparable CR.
I agree with everything--mostly. Metamagic rods and magic weapons act as a direct bonus to capabilities.
I agree that the removal of metamagic rods and/or magic weapons can be compensated for. Within the system, the expected gold piece value of equipment goes a long way toward that end. In fact, since swapping out weapons and rods for other items can be done while still maintaining the balance through treasure, they do very little to upset the balance at all. Removal then becomes a personal campaign choice, not a balance choice. If, however, the existence or removal of one particular item tips the decisions you're making in character creation, then we have to stop and ask ourselves if the item has too much power as written, and should be removed.
I've played in campaigns without rods, and without magic weapons, and it's made no impact on my character choices.
How about you?
I agree that the removal of metamagic rods and/or magic weapons can be compensated for. Within the system, the expected gold piece value of equipment goes a long way toward that end. In fact, since swapping out weapons and rods for other items can be done while still maintaining the balance through treasure, they do very little to upset the balance at all.
That's not entirely true. You can't trade out a magic weapon 1-for-1 for a number of potions. The potions can *simulate* a magic weapon in an ideal situation. But in a bad situation (no time to use the potion, dispel magic, need multiple effects like good weapon + magic), the magic weapon wins.
The same idea can apply to rods. Just because a wand or staff can add a number of extra spells, they don't typically increase the power of individual spells. Quantity is not necessarily quality.
I've played in campaigns without rods, and without magic weapons, and it's made no impact on my character choices.
How about you?
Like I said, a GM can structure the game to compensate for such issues. Playing 15 point buy with the using the CR system as written is going to make a low-magic game more difficult than intended. Upping point buy and lowering CRs can make it work better. . .
I've played in games where wealth is restricted to one level or another. It's all transparent if a GM knows what they're doing.
I've been curious what percentage of the player base is actually playing high level campaigns. IMO, the game becomes more unwieldly as you get higher in level: there's more conditions and effects that have to be tracked. Not many people can keep track of them in their head, and recording and verifying them all really slows the pace of combat. Or the main monster fails an SoD/SoS and combat ends on the 3rd round, which is rather anti-climactic and unsatisfying.
I personally would rather see more content focused at the 3-10 level range, and drop most of the 12+ content. I think the classes are pretty well balanced up until this point, and combat is still...
As a GM in any game (high or low level), I usually delegate the job of keeping track of conditions to the players. They don't have anything better to do (: I also have them keep track of damage dealt to monsters (but not the monster's actual hp).
I also tend to make big, climatic villains incredibly powerful in high-level games. Sometimes I just stack on hp or fudge saving throws if I find the monster isn't powerful enough. Sometimes stacked buffs and random luck drive up the effective APL so much that you've got to compensate somehow. . . otherwise the fight is boring and the game sucks. Usually this isn't necessary; most of the time I make the monster so powerful I have to nerf him somehow (:
Going down this road takes us away from playing a game with rules. Fudging dice rolls is just the GM arbitrarily deciding when things should and shouldn't happen.
The rules don't dictate how hard an encounter should be. They give guidelines of what might be acceptably difficult given adherence to balanced wealth/pointbuy/core material, but those guidelines can't predict everything. And GMs aren't always perfect. (I'm certainly not perfect!) Sometimes an encounter needs to be harder/easier -- it's up to the GM to make the appropriate call to improve the quality of the game. Not making that call means the GM really isn't doing her job.
I like the idea, but many GMs don't like giving away monster abilities like immunities, DR, etc. without a successful Knowledge check. Even conditions like Deafened or Blind can be hidden. If a GM is more open about the monsters abilities, pushing this aspect of bookkeeping to the players makes a lot of sense.
Keeping track of damage dealt to monsters is not the same as keeping track of the monster's hp -- I still keep track of that. DR/immunities are my domain still. If a player deals 50 points of fire damage to a fire immune mob, the player still writes down 50 points. . . or (depending on the situation) I simply tell the player the fire doesn't faze the creature at all (which should be obvious).
Conditions are usually obvious (a nauseated creature vomits) but not always. In the case where it really matters, I don't tell the players.
Wow we're far off topic (:
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I think it's amusing that all of a sudden, rather randomly, metamagic rods are considered must-have items. I personally have never played or GMed a game where they made an appearance. Probably because, as noted earlier in this thread, they are pretty g%*!!#n boring.
I think it's amusing that all of a sudden, rather randomly, metamagic rods are considered must-have items. I personally have never played or GMed a game where they made an appearance. Probably because, as noted earlier in this thread, they are pretty g#%@*#n boring.
Consider that:
1) they are quite powerful and allow you to improvise awesome tricks on the battlefield.
2) they can be made now withou expending XPs
I can see that many casters will get them...
I'm confused, Spell Specialization let's you cast a chosen spell two levels higher, as long as I have Spell Focus in the same school.
So at 1st level as a Human, I could take Spell Focus(Evocation) and Spell Specialization, choosing Magic Missile. I can cast that spell as if I were a 3rd level caster.
When I become second level, I could switch it to Burning Hands, which is now cast as if i were 3rd level.
How does this let me out Sorc a Sorc?? Am I missing something??
Also, a 20th level Shadow-Blooded Sorcerer can do a damn good job of out Wizarding a Wizard via Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation.
Abe can do it with one school, I can do it with two :)
Greater Spell Specialization is what you need to make this work. You don't get it till level 9.I'm confused, Spell Specialization let's you cast a chosen spell two levels higher, as long as I have Spell Focus in the same school.
So at 1st level as a Human, I could take Spell Focus(Evocation) and Spell Specialization, choosing Magic Missile. I can cast that spell as if I were a 3rd level caster.
When I become second level, I could switch it to Burning Hands, which is now cast as if i were 3rd level.
How does this let me out Sorc a Sorc?? Am I missing something??
Also, a 20th level Shadow-Blooded Sorcerer can do a damn good job of out Wizarding a Wizard via Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation.
Abe can do it with one school, I can do it with two :)
Oh. So from 1-8 ur what?? Still a normal Wizard?? Who can cast some spells at a higher level??
I suppose that if ur jumping into a mid to high lvl game this could be cool. But that doesn't usually happen, especially as many games start at lvl 1. So ya, Abe good job showing what a 20th level fully optimized characte can do. We all know that right before epic characters of all sorts can be pretty nuts, especially if you go out of your way to build them thus for a hypothetical epeen contest.
Whether or not you can pull this off in a normal game remains to be seen. But good job nonetheless, I guess? Lol
The sorcerer gets spontaneous casting, and appears to get a lot more spells per day than wizards, but this usually isn't the case.Say I'm twelfth level and decide that I have an overmastering urge to just, I dunno, burn a whole city to the ground with napalm, I can do it as a sorc by casting twenty Fireballs. No wands. No Pearls. No prep. Completely random spur-of-the-moment chaos.
Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom! Kaboom!
Which is kind of the point of the entire thread -- now the wizard can too -- no pearls, no prep, completely random spur-of-the-moment chaos.
Also, a 20th level Shadow-Blooded Sorcerer can do a damn good job of out Wizarding a Wizard via Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation.Abe can do it with one school, I can do it with two :)
oh gee -- wow now I can do it with three:
Spell Focus(illusion)
Spell Specialization(shadow Conjuration *later becomes Shades*)
Spell Specialization(shadow evocation)
Greater Spell specialization
And then the amulet for -- well lets go with necromancy today -- I did transmutation last week, and if I don't like it, I can always change tomorrow...
Can your sorcerer say the same?
Didn't think so.
Whether or not you can pull this off in a normal game remains to be seen. But good job nonetheless, I guess? Lol
Fine then prefer spell -- oops now I'm doing it sooner.
So here's the thing -- the sorcerer can't be a wizard -- the wizard can mimick the sorcerer though, and still be a wizard.
That's a bit hard to match.
@ Abraham - ok I'll bite, but only in a limited fashion. You state that the sorc's bag is spontaneous casting, which I would dispute. For me the Sorcerer is more about raw power. He should be able to exceed what the wizard can do as long as he focuses.
That is what a sorcerer means to me - not merely spontaneous casting.
For classic appeal, let's choose the age old favorite - Fireball. I've put down a build specializing in casting fireball as a singular focus. I would challenge you to exceed the sorc's output with your wizard.
Human Sorcerer Arcane Bloodline
Abilities:
B -- Elemental Focus (Fire)
1 -- Spell Penetration
H -- Greater Elemental Focus (Fire)
Bloodline Arcana -- +1 DC to any spell with metamagic applied that increases the spell level
3 -- Greater Spell Penetration
5 -- Maximized Spell
7 -- Intensified Spell
Blood Feat -- Spell Focus (Evocation)
9 -- Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)
11 -- Silent Spell
13 -- Spontaneous Metafocus (Fireball)
Blood Feat -- Still Spell
15 -- Quicken Spell
Bloodline -- School Power (Evocation) - +2 DC to Evocation spells
17 -- Empowered Spell
19 -- Spell Perfection (Fireball)
Blood Feat -- Combat Casting
Bloodline -- Arcane Apotheosis
Excluding bonus spells, this Sorc can cast 42 fireballs per day - of various degrees of metamagic potential. Can apply one metamagic feat to each fireball at no cost. Can cast metamagiced fireballs with no casting time increase. He does not need a spellbook or bonded item to do so or any magic items. Can also do it bound and gagged.
Gets a +12 to DC and +8 to Spell Penetration from feats before applying any metamagic. Gets a +14 to DC when he raises the spell level through metamagic.
I'm pretty sure that the build isn't optimal, but I'd be interested to see if you can make a wizard that could match it. Remember, the only thing that matters here is the ability to cast Fireball, because as they say "When all you have is a hammer..."
Looks fun Mark and I'm willing to bite -- I would like to offer though that you might be better with a half orc for pure fire damage on a sorcerer. I'm only seeing a +8 to DC's for you though -- class features are not increased by spell perfection only feats that are not metamagic feats... which works well for me since all my DC increases are coming from feats:
Half-Elf(evoker-admixture)Scroll Master
B -- Skill Focus(knowledge(arcana))
B -- Scribe Scroll
1 -- Spell Focus(evocation)
3 -- Eldritch Heritage(arcane)
5 -- Spell Specialization(fireball)
B -- Intensify Spell
7 -- Greater Spell Focus(evocation)
9 -- Maximize Spell
11 -- Improved Eldritch Heritage(arcane -- 3rd level ability ironically)
13 -- Quicken Spell
15 -- Spell Perfection(fireball)
17 -- Greater Eldritch Heritage(arcane)
19 -- Elemental Focus(fire)
20 -- Greater elemental Focus(fire)
DC = +12 CL = 24 Minimum Fireballs a Day = 36 Roll twice on all spell resistance checks and take the better.
Scrolls use my caster level and save throw DC bonuses.
A different build would be human and give up the eldritch heritage feats and take the following:
Still Spell, Silent spell, Eschew Materials, Echoing spell
And would have a caster level of 24 with a DC of +8 but would be able to match the sorcerer in casting in all circumstances. It would also have the effect of giving me a possible 15+ spells per day to cast fireball with out of my fourth, fifth and sixth level spell slots.