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Once Again, Endo here to rock you wonderful people with another Character concept. After reading the Ulti-Magic Book (Like 1 hour ago) I have thought up A possible Synthesis/ EK build utilizing Alot of the new stuff in the book
So, Lets go with Half-Elf 20 pt buy. A 5, 10, 15, or 20 level build would be nice to see, as well as utilization of the Eldritch Heritage feats (They are nice)if possible.
Love to see what the Paizoians come up with
Were I to guess its because its late night in the U.S.
You should probably take the opportunity to show such a build yourself as a base to build off of.
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Multi-classing with the synthesist is a terrible idea.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions.
Which means, if you are a paladin 2 / synthesist 8 / eldritch knight 5 and you use your fused eidolon ability, your BAB drops to +6.
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Multi-classing with the synthesist is a terrible idea.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions.Which means, if you are a paladin 2 / synthesist 8 / eldritch knight 5 and you use your fused eidolon ability, your BAB drops to +6.
Sure if it worked like that but There is a precedent shown through the Monk's flurry ability and Im pretty sure that holds over well here. I think of it like this; All of your synthesis levels turn into your eidolon's effective Bab for that level, the rest stacks on that because they have nothing to do with the synthesis much like how your magic stat-boosting items would stack with your changed Str, Dex, and con..I think.Your not JUST a synthesis, your a Synthesis/ pally/ Ek...It seems like summoning the Eidolon would only affect your synthesis portion. Besides I see no reason to screw over this archetype when generally having 2 actions is better.
Multi-classing with the synthesist is a terrible idea.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions.Which means, if you are a paladin 2 / synthesist 8 / eldritch knight 5 and you use your fused eidolon ability, your BAB drops to +6.Sure if it worked like that but There is a precedent shown through the Monk's flurry ability and Im pretty sure that holds over well here. I think of it like this; All of your synthesis levels turn into your eidolon's effective Bab for that level, the rest stacks on that because they have nothing to do with the synthesis much like how your magic stat-boosting items would stack with your changed Str, Dex, and con..I think.Your not JUST a synthesis, your a Synthesis/ pally/ Ek...It seems like summoning the Eidolon would only affect your synthesis portion. Besides I see no reason to screw over this archetype when generally having 2 actions is better.
Yeah....I don't think that's how it works. Pretty sure you would still only use your Eidolon's base attack bonus + str mods and miscellaneous mods
Don't get me wrong. I love the synthesist archtype. It is exactly what I wanted when I created the mutagenist archtype. The ability to apply evolution points to your own body.
The wording between this ability and furry-of-blows bares a slight resemblance and you may be correct. I think this is something that could be clarified though because they are not exactly similar. A GM would be right in saying yea or nay to it.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Yeah....I don't think that's how it works. Pretty sure you would still only use your Eidolon's base attack bonus + str mods and miscellaneous modsMulti-classing with the synthesist is a terrible idea.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions.Which means, if you are a paladin 2 / synthesist 8 / eldritch knight 5 and you use your fused eidolon ability, your BAB drops to +6.Sure if it worked like that but There is a precedent shown through the Monk's flurry ability and Im pretty sure that holds over well here. I think of it like this; All of your synthesis levels turn into your eidolon's effective Bab for that level, the rest stacks on that because they have nothing to do with the synthesis much like how your magic stat-boosting items would stack with your changed Str, Dex, and con..I think.Your not JUST a synthesis, your a Synthesis/ pally/ Ek...It seems like summoning the Eidolon would only affect your synthesis portion. Besides I see no reason to screw over this archetype when generally having 2 actions is better.
Why would the archetype make it where there is no real mechanical benefit to playing said archetype over the summoner, Why make an archetype as bad as the Truenamer for multiclass? It seems to me they had your Bab equal the eidolon simply because it would be one higher for your level until 20. I see no reason why not to allow bab for other classes to apply. Like I said it'd be like the monks flurry only working for monk and staying the same if you multiclass EVER Ex. monk1/fighter 19 does not flurry with a +1 bab, it does so at +20, albiet the flurry ability does not progress. It also seems balanced to work with sythesist, you lose out on evolutions , class abilties and eidolon buffs like any multi-classed character.
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Don't get me wrong. I love the synthesist archtype. It is exactly what I wanted when I created the mutagenist archtype. The ability to apply evolution points to your own body.
The wording between this ability and furry-of-blows bares a slight resemblance and you may be correct. I think this is something that could be clarified though because they are not exactly similar. A GM would be right in saying yea or nay to it.
Its good to hear that, And at least you see the truth in my words as well; Now I would like a favor of you and that would be to post a build IF it did indeed work the way I have listed ; because currently it is up the interpretation either way. Plus I'm curious at others' concepts. I shall post mine in a few
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm pretty sure the synthesist BaB works exactly like flurry I'n that a synthesist 1 fighter 19 would have a 20 BaB not 1.
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Alright I did some work and made a build for 6th and 10th level, trying to make one for 15-16 and 20th later
6th level
Kael Vyse
Male half-elf fighter 1/synthesist 5
CG Medium synthesism (human, outsider, elf)
Init +3 (+2) Senses Perception +11; darkvision 60 ft.
-Defense---------------------------------
AC 27, touch 12, flat-footed 25 (+5 armor, +8 natural armor, +2 (+3) dexterity, +2 shield)
hp (4d8+1d10+21) 45hp + (4d10+8) 30 temporary = 75 total
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +6
-Offense---------------------------------
Space 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Spd 30ft.Fly 30ft (good)
Melee ECB +11 (1d10+9[18-20/x2]) and 2 wing buffets +4 (1d6+4+1d6 Electric) or 2 claws +9 (1d4+6+1d6 Electric), 2 wing buffets +4 (1d6+4+1d6 Electric)
Defensive Abilities Resistance Fire 10, Evasion
-Statistics------------------------------
Str 14 (18), Dex 16 (14), Con 14(14), Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +4 (+5); CMB +6 (+8); CMD 19 (20)
Feats Skill Focus (Planes), Arcane Strike, Power Attack*, Eldritch heritage (Arcane), Exotic Weapon Prof ECB.
Skills 6x2 = 12 ranks;
Languages: common and elven
Gear +1 Transformative Elven Curve Blade, +1 Mithral chainshirt, +1 Cloak of Resistance
Special Abilities evolutions [INA, Powerful Blow (Wings), Resistance, Skilled (Perception), Wing Buffet, Energy attacks, Flight], SM III 5/day, Shielded meld, Fused Link
Kael Vyse
Male half-elf fighter 2/synthesist 8
CG Medium synthesism (human, outsider, elf)
Init +3 (+2) Senses Perception +11; darkvision 60 ft.
-Defense---------------------------------
AC 29, touch 14, flat-footed 27 (+5 armor, +10 natural armor, +2 (+3) dexterity, +2 shield +2 deflection)
hp (7d8+2d10+39) 82hp + (6d10+12) 45 temporary = 127 total
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +6
-Offense---------------------------------
Space 5 ft. Reach 5 ft. (10ft with wings)
Spd 30ft.Fly 30ft (good)
Melee ECB +16/+11 (1d10+12[15-20/x2]) , Bite +10 (1d8+6+1d6 Electric) 2 wing buffets +10 (1d6+6+1d6 Electric) or Bite +15 (1d8+9+1d6 Electric) 2 claws +15 (1d4+9+1d6 Electric), 2 wing buffets +10 (1d6+6+1d6 Electric)
Defensive Abilities Resistance Fire 10, Evasion
-Statistics------------------------------
Str 16 (23), Dex 16 (15), Con 16(16), Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 17
Base Atk +8; CMB +11 (+13); CMD 23 (20)
Feats Skill Focus (Planes), Arcane Strike, Power Attack*, Eldritch heritage (Arcane), Exotic Weapon Prof ECB, Extra Evolution, Vital Strike, Improved Critical (ECB)
Skills 10x2 = 20 ranks;
Languages: common and elven
Gear +1 Transformative Spell Storing Evil outsider Bane Elven Curve Blade +1 Large adamantine ECB, +1 Mithral chainshirt, +2 Cloak of Resistance +2 belt of (Str & Con) +2 headband of (Int[know arcana] and Cha) Amulet of might fists +2 (+1 and evil outsider bane) +2 ring of deflection
Special Abilities evolutions [Bite, INA, Powerful Blow (Wings) Powerful Blow (bite), Resistance, Reach (Wings), Skilled (Perception) Wing Buffet, Abilty increase (Str), Energy attacks, Flight] , SM III 5/day, Shielded meld, Fused Link
Alright, In both cases I get over the casting problem by making my arcane bond into a bastard sword when I want to cast. Evolution sure could be used in conjuction with Enlarge person to make me huge size (Thus the large weapon). At this point barkskin is probably up with its 100 min duration (not included in stats) as well as mage armor (Incorporeals are annoying), haste can come at the drop of a hat. When he hits 11th he takes Improved Eldritch heritage and grabs the Tasty Vampiric Touch Spell or any suitable spell at 3rd level or lower.
So, how does it look baring spell choice of course, Any changes you would like? Let me know how you'd build it. At 20 I'm seeing this going Synthesist 12/Fighter 2-5 (Weapon Master/ TH Fighter)/3-6
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Hm, can you even get into EK at the level in your first example? Yes, your BaB will be +6 when you're fused, but it won't be when you aren't.
Well Actually The build doesn't plan on getting into EK until later levels (essentially working up to EK as I think of how this character would organically grow) Realistically He could get in as soon as 8th...better at 9th...optimal after such for my tastes around 14 when I have my evolutions that I want and just buff my combat prowess from there.... (Synthesist 12/fighter 2....then EK)
I do however plan to show a 20th level build that ACTUALLY includes EK its just not going to happen at lower levels, and probably not until mid-high levels
Looks like it could be a really fun build.
I'm pretty sure that you can cast without the transformative quality on your weapon. Wielding a two hander requires two hands, but holding one doesn't, and switching between the two is a free action. So if you want to cast a spell you can just let go with one hand and do the somatic components, then put both hands on the sword.
The only real downside to this are that while you are casting the spell you are not considered to be wielding the weapon, so if your spell somehow made someone provoke an AoO from you, you wouldn't be able to take it, and if you provoked by not casting defensively, you probably wouldn't get the AC bonus from a Defending weapon (not 100% sure on that one).
I'm pretty sure that you can cast without the transformative quality on your weapon. Wielding a two hander requires two hands, but holding one doesn't, and switching between the two is a free action. So if you want to cast a spell you can just let go with one hand and do the somatic components, then put both hands on the sword.
This is a reasonable house rule, and one, might I add, that every GM I've played under implements and that I've implemented as well. However, my understanding from slogging through the boards is that holding a two-handed weapon and wielding a two-handed weapon are 2 different things. In the case of an arcane bonded item, wielding it is required for casting if the item is a weapon. In which case, it's a no-go unless the weapon in question is able to be wielded in 1 hand (read as: light, one-handed, or double weapon).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's the ruling at this point.
In which case, Endoralis, placing the transformative property on your elven curve blade is a clever work around.
On topic though, I think this looks like a lot of fun. Eldritch Knights are one of my favorite classes, and this one looks like a blast. Good work!
My bad, didn't notice that it was an Arcane Bond, I just thought he was trying to free up a hand for somatic components.
Another thing that might work would be to ditch the wing buffet and another one point evolution (reach maybe), and grab the limbs evolution. That way you could switch your weapon into the new limbs, since they don't have claws yet. Doing this you'd end up with the same number of attacks if you attack with the weapon, but you'd lose out on a pair of secondaries when you attack without. You gain some versatility, and could buy another set of claws later, putting you a bit ahead since they're primary.
One question though, what's powerful blow? I couldn't find it in the evolution list.
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My bad, didn't notice that it was an Arcane Bond, I just thought he was trying to free up a hand for somatic components.
Another thing that might work would be to ditch the wing buffet and another one point evolution (reach maybe), and grab the limbs evolution. That way you could switch your weapon into the new limbs, since they don't have claws yet. Doing this you'd end up with the same number of attacks if you attack with the weapon, but you'd lose out on a pair of secondaries when you attack without. You gain some versatility, and could buy another set of claws later, putting you a bit ahead since they're primary.
One question though, what's powerful blow? I couldn't find it in the evolution list.
I think its powerful attack The one that increases die size
Another thing I can't assume I will constantly have the eidolon which is why I made the sword transformative...I also forgot some bonuses to the 10th level build, also The concept needs wings I keep the claws just in case I cannot use the two hander for some reason. Getting limbs will be a solution, though temporary
Please tell me this synthisist is severly limited in some way. I mean pathfinder wouldn't really nerf the druid into some sort of balance just to make a new class that breaks the game in the same way the old druid did, would they? Please tell me I'm missing something.
You also can't use its scores to qualify for feats.
Well, I suppose that's something. And I *think* the summoners spell list isn't quite as nasty as the druids.
Sorry for the derailng of the thread, I'll go back to grumbling in the corner now.
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Has anyone seen any words on whether or not you can use armor and shield in your fused eidolon form? Cause a normal eidolon can't. The wording does say you gain the eidolons armor and natural armor bonuses...
I'm 90% sure you can't wear armor and shields while fused. The original playtest of the summoner allowed eidolons to do this and it was deemed to powerful.
My GM was already foaming at the mouth when I told him I had a 22 AC at level 2 with the option of bumping it to 26 with shield.
My GM was already foaming at the mouth when I told him I had a 22 AC at level 2 with the option of bumping it to 26 with shield.
I can do that with a cleric at lvl2 easily. HArdly foam worthy.
From the first question I don't believe there's anything specifically restricting it. I suppose if the eidolon gained an armor bonus then stacking rules apply as normal.
Please tell me this synthisist is severly limited in some way. I mean pathfinder wouldn't really nerf the druid into some sort of balance just to make a new class that breaks the game in the same way the old druid did, would they? Please tell me I'm missing something.
It's not nearly as bad as the 3.5 druid because:
You only have one form you can change into, not a form for every situation.
Your number of attacks are capped based on level, not on what you can find (eberron halfling dinosaur of wankyness and so on).
You don't have a full caster progression.
No animal companion.
I'm guessing that before long people will start finding some exploits for the synthesist that make it really nasty, but at this point it is probably straight up weaker than the base Summoner. It's just a cool enough idea to make up for it, and is accessible to more players.
I think one of the limiting factors is that the synthesized hps are temp hp. this is a fairly good balancer.
I think one of the limiting factors is that the synthesized hps are temp hp. this is a fairly good balancer.
Or a real bad typo. Keep in mind that an eidolon does not heal naturally so you basically force the summoner to operate with a half hp eidolon for his entire career.
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Hm, can you even get into EK at the level in your first example? Yes, your BaB will be +6 when you're fused, but it won't be when you aren't.
OK BAB Synthesis and Multi-classing
We all have read that you replace the synthesist's BAB with your eidolons. However, it DOES NOT SAY your character replaces their BAB with the eidolons. And each class has it's own BAB. Instinctively we just assume *add BAB's together* which is true mechanically but, I yield to the earlier comment on multi-classing. Your character has NO BAB your classes do. The Eidolon replaces the synthesist BAB and any BAB from another class would combine it's BAB since they are mutually exclusive. I mean if for some reason you did 4 levels Synthesis Summoner and 6 levels barbarian am I a Barbarian or Synthesis Summoner?
The correct answer is both and neither. So for all my opinion which may be worth nothing I would say the Synthesist has it's own BAB and any other class added has it's BAB and they would stack.
*I hope there is ruling on this soon too*
As far as synthesist and armor I would say no... If your Eidolon can't do it you can't. Also since you cant be targeted separately the armor would need to be on both of you so I lean to no on this.
Also this was on another thread about Synthesist, Eidolons, and movement. The dev said that a quad wouldn't get the carrying cap bonus for taking that form because you are still treated as a biped underneath your eidolon. So I guess this means you would get 30 speed if you were a medium creature with serpentine eidolon because your a biped underneath? but you loose climb? I don't know I don't agree with that call but that's here nor there to anything official happens
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OK BAB Synthesis and Multi-classing
We all have read that you replace the synthesist's BAB with your eidolons. However, it DOES NOT SAY your character replaces their BAB with the eidolons. And each class has it's own BAB. Instinctively we just assume *add BAB's together* which is true mechanically but, I yield to the earlier comment on multi-classing. Your character has NO BAB your classes do.
And just to throw some helpful reference quotes and page #'s in there
Page 80 Ultimate Magic
Synthesist (Archetype)
3rd Paragraph 4th Sentence
" The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus and gains the armor and natural armor bonus and modifiers to ability scores "
So I actually retract my earlier statement that I didn't think you could use armor with an Eidolon since it's says "gains vs replace in reference to armor"
Also notice it says the SYNTHESIST uses the eidolon's base attack bonus it does not say " you gain the eidolon's base attack bonus " you're not synthesist you're a character that has classes in synthesist *weird but important distinction*
next we reference the core rule book
Page 30 Core Rule Book
Multi-classing
2nd Paragraph
" For example, let's say a 5th level fighter decides to dabble in the arcane arts, and adds one level of wizard when he advances to 6th level. Such a character would have the powers and abilities of both a 5th level fighter and a 1st level wizard, but would still be considered a 6th level character.(His class levels would be 5th and 1st but his total character level is 5th) He keeps all of his bonus feats, grained from 5 levels of fighter, but can now also cast 1st level spells and picks an arcane school. He adds all of his hit points, base attack bonuses, and saving throws bonuses from a 1st level wizard on top of those gained from a 5th level fighter*
So two big important call outs in that paragraph. #1. SUCH A CHARACTER WOULD HAVE ABILITIES OF BOTH!!!... Doesn't it seem odd that an eidolon would delete the BAB of an entire separate class? also this goes to my earlier comment that classes are mutually exclusive and don't change each other... there are prestige classes that have synergy that is different
#2. He adds all the hit points, base attack bonuses, and saving throws of a 1st level wizard on top of those of a 5th level wizard.
So what's the BAB of synthesist ? Well if his eidolon is on it's 3/4 BAB if it's off it's 1/2 BAB so what ever other class there is on top of that it's still adding it's BAB. So you will have 2 BAB's just as you would if you didn't multi class that depends on whether you eidolon is on or off. However, it states quite clearly that you get BAB from both and nothing in the synthesist says you're BAB changes just the BAB of the synthesist aka class.