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I was originally going to post "Is there any way to tag the holy descriptor or something similar onto this" for super-good Qinggong monks. I just fell in love with the visuals, the fact that it was useful against flying opponents, and how it was pretty much the "Hadoken" for monks.
Then I looked up and finally noticed the [Evil] tag for the first time.
So, is there any way, hoever obscure, withing the PF rules to "sanctify" a spell in order to cleave off the [Evil] tag and make this available for good Qinggong monks?
Or are there more Qinggong abilities coming in the future that could fill this vacuum?
Seriously. Ignore the evil part and reflavor the spell to create shining golden doves if it bothers you. There's no inherent balance issue that will kill your game by you switching the [evil] out for [good] on this one.
As far as I can see, it is unclear why the spell is evil. The flavor might be because it draws blood from your body or something like that - but that is not directly supported in the text.
I think I would just try to discuss it with the GM and ask to simply have the evil tag removed.
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If I were the GM it wouldn't be an issue. I'd tear it off without a second glance. As a player on the other hand...
As far as I can see, it is unclear why the spell is evil. The flavor might be because it draws blood from your body or something like that - but that is not directly supported in the text.
That's what's so damn irritating about it really. One of the most iconic supernatural monk abilities as far as pop culture is concerned, and it's arbitrarily evil.
But yeah, another thing to have to ask the GM if he's willing to houserule...
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Quick, someone remind me if negative energy is Evil in Golarion again? Cause that's the only justification for the Evil tag I see.
Nope, it's still neutral. Despite it also being used to explain that all undead are evil, always, no exceptions. :(
Except ghosts apparently. Thank God for that story possibility being preserved at least.
edit-Cripes, that sounds way more bitter than I like being. Sorry, just frustrated.
Quick, someone remind me if the inflict spells deal negative energy damage.
;)
ABOMINAAAYTION OF NAAAYTURE!
What does it matter if the spell has an evil tag next to it? Just laugh sinisterly after and you're fulfilling all obligations the [evil] tag comes with.
Player: "I use my Ki to cast Blood Crow Strike."
DM: "As I see it has the Evil descriptor on it, if you choose to cast this you will become evi-"
Player: "HADOUKEN!"
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Player: "I use my Ki to cast Blood Crow Strike."
DM: "As I see it has the Evil descriptor on it, if you choose to cast this you will become evi-"
Player: "HADOUKEN!"
Fixed.
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What does it matter if the spell has an evil tag next to it? Just laugh sinisterly after and you're fulfilling all obligations the [evil] tag comes with.
Mainly because I like to play monks as good as paladins. Same for barbarians...
Hey, I like playing good guys. :)
It just strikes me as odd that it's evil out of nowhere, while a lot of the mind affecting spells introduced in the same section that aren't [evil] are far more morally questionable. I'm really suspecting the [evil] tag was an error, considering how some things were apparently shifted around concerning the Qinggong powers being moved to a different format, according to the Cold Ice Strike discussion.
I suspect that they wanted to prevent the blood crow strike becoming essentially an obligatory item for monks. It really is very good after all. Other than the obvious things that are spelled out in the spell, it also lets you:
- trip, disarm, sunder at range (including snatching their weapon into your hand although you're 100+ft away)
- stunning fist, punishing kick, touch of serenity at a distance of 100+ft
Those things are not to be sneezed at. Especially since you can combine them: use two attacks for stunning and serenitizing, and follow up with a trip attempt or two, and the rest of the time just pummel them ordinarily.
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I'm not seeing where the trips and disarms are coming from. Blood crow strike only allows unarmed strikes according to the text unless I'm missing something.
And if they wanted to prevent blood crow strike from becoming a must-have, there had to have been better ways to do it than make it completely unusable for most monk PCs. Especially considering that there are no good-aligned ki powers to balance things out.
That could be due to the fact that in Golarion the most awful monks are evil, coming from Cheliax and Isger. Even worse, its a sisterhood called the golden Erynies. They already have other real cool feats from there like Hamatulatsu, Hamatula Strike and Grasp, Hellcat Stealth and Pounce and some more. So this fits in the picture actually.
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But aren't the basic rules and Golarion specifics kept separate?
And most of the monk traditions in Golarion should be coming from Irori, Vudra, Jalmeray and the like rather than Cheliax and Isger, though the latter certainly seems to have a disproportionate representation in mechanics.
What about options for good, heroic monk PCs? How about some feats flavored towards good-leaning monasteries or martial art traditions? How about some ki powers evocative of celestial enlightenment?
Really hoping that [Evil] tag was a mistake now.
This is going to become the Pathfinder equivalent of Star War's Force Lighting. It is labeled as evil, but it doesn't do anything that's obviously evil and a lot of people who want it will argue that it shouldn't be counted as an evil attack ;)
My group had the same problem in 3.5 with the Deathwatch spell. First level cleric of Pelor wanted to use Deathwatch to scan the battlefield to see if anyone was still alive to be healed. NOPE. That's Evil™ and forbidden. Our DM crossed out the Evil descriptor in his book with a notation that said, "NOT Evil. Read the #%@*ing spell!" Glad to see that sentiment was shared in Pathfinder.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm not seeing where the trips and disarms are coming from. Blood crow strike only allows unarmed strikes according to the text unless I'm missing something
You can use unarmed strikes to trip and disarm normally, and the spell let's you consider the target to be threatened by your unarmed strikes as normal.
Wasn't there a Street Fighter movie where Ryu fights... uh... Akuma?
I only saw it once. I didn't even catch the whole movie, and it was dubbed (some international channel on a hotel TV). But I want to think that ther was some corrupting force behind the use of things like the Hadouken. At least in that movie.
I am pretty sure that the concept of a ki/chi/life force being used for such a purpose is considered an evil act because of the philosophies that go along with the disciplines that teach the control of that energy. (What a mouthful.) Using your essence to reach out and strike another creature from a distance (where they can't strike back) might be considered evil by some.
Can't say I necessarily agree, since there is contradictory material (elemental fist seems to break this logic), but I can see how someone could justify it.
Wasn't there a Street Fighter movie where Ryu fights... uh... Akuma?
I only saw it once. I didn't even catch the whole movie, and it was dubbed (some international channel on a hotel TV). But I want to think that ther was some corrupting force behind the use of things like the Hadouken. At least in that movie.
I am pretty sure that the concept of a ki/chi/life force being used for such a purpose is considered an evil act because of the philosophies that go along with the disciplines that teach the control of that energy. (What a mouthful.) Using your essence to reach out and strike another creature from a distance (where they can't strike back) might be considered evil by some.
Can't say I necessarily agree, since there is contradictory material (elemental fist seems to break this logic), but I can see how someone could justify it.
There is the dark hadou which is used by Akuma, and can be used by Ryu. The Dark Hadou is stronger than the hadou but corrupting.
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Problem is, we don't even get a Vanilla Hadou option.
My group had the same problem in 3.5 with the Deathwatch spell. First level cleric of Pelor wanted to use Deathwatch to scan the battlefield to see if anyone was still alive to be healed. NOPE. That's Evil™ and forbidden. Our DM crossed out the Evil descriptor in his book with a notation that said, "NOT Evil. Read the #%@*ing spell!" Glad to see that sentiment was shared in Pathfinder.
Agreed. Though I wish that sentiment extended to this. So much for throwing hadokens. :(
I'm not seeing where the trips and disarms are coming from. Blood crow strike only allows unarmed strikes according to the text unless I'm missing somethingYou can use unarmed strikes to trip and disarm normally, and the spell let's you consider the target to be threatened by your unarmed strikes as normal.
Good God, if that's the case it should have just been rewritten to be a straight attack, not made arbitrarily evil* and locked away where most PC monks can't use it.
*Blood Crow Strike is evil while the spell that drives people to suicide isn't. How the hell.
Vent/spoilered for negativity:
I want to be happy with the monk, especially the Qinggong monk, I really do. But things like this and True Sacrifice and Cockatrice Strike just keep piling up. Please let Ultimate Combat be good to the monk.
I don't think you need to worry about the monk so much - he's very strong now with qinggong (I specifically look at the level 4 power barkskin - which gives a great AC boost and frees the neck slot for other important things). Just the raw ordinary monk with some help of qinggong for variety is lethal. There's plenty of ways to deal with DR.
I wouldn't rely on a feat that a fighter can get a level 14 and a monk at level 19. That doesn't really a build make.
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I don't think you need to worry about the monk so much - he's very strong now with qinggong (I specifically look at the level 4 power barkskin - which gives a great AC boost and frees the neck slot for other important things). Just the raw ordinary monk with some help of qinggong for variety is lethal. There's plenty of ways to deal with DR.
I wouldn't rely on a feat that a fighter can get a level 14 and a monk at level 19. That doesn't really a build make.
Actually I'm finding a good bit of the Qinggong's ability selection kind of overpriced for what they are. And slapping [Evil] on blood crow strike hinders them against flying enemies, unless the expectation is to force monks to be archers.
And that fighter getting a monk-flavored feat from a monk-flavored feat chain before the monk and being better at it is just another part of the problem.
It's not just mechanics though, or survivability. It's the lack of support for character types, for pretty common themes of flavor. Vow of Poverty contradicting itself aside, we have two Qinggong powers that are evil only. No good ones. And one of the evil ones thematically matches what's likely going to be a very desired power for those whose character concepts are inspired even a bit by Ryu, Terry Bogard, or Liu Kang.
ANd then there's all the devil themed feats. No explicitly good ones.
How about some love for monks of Korada or Iomedae? How about some good-flavored stuff for monks of alignments that players are more likely to make? Why tag thematically awesome powers as evil-only when there's nothing actually evil about them?
Sorry if this is too complainy. It's just that every monk concept I like that I've come up with these past few days has tripped over MAD, alignment oddities, and stuff that just plain doesn't work or requires the breaking of theme to work. It's just that when you've been burned by the Healing Hand archetype, then get excited about VoP and thn find out what it really is, then decide to be positive and roll up your sleeves to throw yourself into Qinggong and run into this...it gets irritating.
Ultimate Combat can't come soon enough. I just pray that the arbitrariness and theme lockout is absent in that book. And that the monk's MAD gets punched in the throat.
The MADness isn't tooo bad. The core thing to know about monks at levels 1 to 8 is that they make use of potions of mage armor. That covers all your AC needs, so you don't need to overcommit your points/stats into Dex and Wis.
Can you describe your monk concepts? Maybe they can be made playable for you :)
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The MADness isn't tooo bad. The core thing to know about monks at levels 1 to 8 is that they make use of potions of mage armor. That covers all your AC needs, so you don't need to overcommit your points/stats into Dex and Wis.
Can you describe your monk concepts? Maybe they can be made playable for you :)
Heh, thanks. :)
I'm half asleep and lost this post twice now, so it's likely pretty sloppy and missing some points. Still..
1. Gearless
An ascetic that forsook material wealth both as a way of seeking enlightenment and to alleviate the suffering of others by shouldering as much of it as he can. Sworn to never use a weapon of war, he would only use his body and rarely improvised weapons(Jackie Chan ladder scenario). Shuns killing except as a last resort or when faced with truly irredeemable foes. Monetary wealth and material goods don't mean anything to him. All he really thinks he needs are the earth, sky, his gods, and the drive to constantly further perfect himself.
Highly nimble, fit, and enduring. Someone whose movement about the enemy when trading blows is like water, one whose agility is somewhat more important than sheer strength. Dumping Int doesn't feel right, nor does CHA, since he's supposed to inspire people(and some GMs are apparently big on needing CHA to ever be capable of that....:( )
Devout worshipper of a pantheistic view of Irori, Iomedae, Sarenrae, and various Vudran deities of a similar nature. As morally upright as a paladin, he uses martial arts steeped in traditions devoted to the divine, some of which would eventually come show itself in his abilities in subtle ways as he grew in strength and understanding.
He was meant as a sort of character that could stand unarmed and unassuming before threats with material advantages over him, but could still hold his own, serving as an example and hope for the poor, weak, and downtrodden. The sort of guy that when faced by a hulking, heavily armed and armored villain mocking his unarmed, unarmored full of a victim, he could just stand in place, smile, motion for the guy to bring it on, weather the storm, and then take the guy apart. The sort of guy that can jump upon and dash across rooftops to get someone out of burning building, moving with fluid grace the whole way. The kind of guy whose smile only faded when there were demons that needed to be punched in the face. If he came upon a village where a criminal was facing corporal punishment far exceeding the weight of his crimes, he'd offer to bear it all in his place and do so in silence.
2. Qinggong
Very similar to the above. Only slightly more trickstery but still highly honorable. Devoted to the service of others and bettering the lot of the world as a whole. Shuns greed but possibly not material wealth, though it is something never to be flaunted. Devout to the same assortment of gods, but leaning more towards the mystical side of things.
Sworn to never wield a weapon of war, just like the above. Barehanded fighter. Perhaps a further increased focus towards dexterity over strength.
Visualized him weaving sublte mystic arts into his martial artistry, and eventually manifesting flashier ki abilities of a celestial bent, throwing heavenly fire at the wicked. Basically someone capable of throwing a hadoken. Someone that could harry spellcasters and flyers with abilities not borne out of magical study but out of a constant quest for martial and spiritual perfection.
In both cases, I'd want them to be survivable. I'd want them to be inspiring figures, not hapless ones. Their idealism and devotion would be the source of their strength, not their weakness.
1. Gearless
I'm copy pasting this from a recent post: I've created a demonstration monk for the vow of poverty here
Up to level 14 only a single special magical item is assumed (a monk's robe) as well as a single manual of strength (+2). By level 18, however, the item is replaced to a highest level amulet of mighty fist and a few more tomes/manuals (all +2). You could argue that the level 18 version is not in the spirit of the vow - I would imagine the in-world flavor is that the amulet is awarded to the monk by his monastry to save the world. Regardless, at least all the way up to level 14 the monk stays playable.
At the levels where you thinking (10 to 20 apparently) the MAD is not so much of an issue: assume you start with 15 instead of 18 Strength at level 1, well... at level 16 your attack might have been +22/+22/(+22)/+17/+17/+12/+12/+7, now it is only +20/+20/(+20)/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5.
Sure, it is less, but at high levels it doesn't really matter that much anymore. The increase in attack tends to out-race the increase in AC (for monsters as well) - so the +22 and the +20 both will hit most of the time.
2. Qinggong
The blood crow strike is obviously the ultimate win for the hadouken - if it were only non-evil. A seriously powerful ability and I can understand that people are irate about the [evil] tag.
But, I think that the ability at level 4 is already sufficient for the hadouken: scorching ray. If your GM is kind and let's you take Quickened Spell-like Ability from the Bestiary, you can do some great things with that ability at levels where most of your character time is spent: levels 4 to 12.
For me of particular interest are the feat-ki-powers. Whirlwind Attack, Spring Attack and Step-Up And Strike. They give great versatility to the monk when he needs it.
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Unfortunately, quickened requires your caster level to be 8th :( And then it's a trade-off between an extra attack from ki or the spell. Of course, 8d6 fire damage is pretty cool. And adding boots of haste remove that particular issue. But so many neat monk abilities run off of swift actions that the awesome-factor is kind of restricted :(
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Use of tomes through story could work, but the depndence on amulets and whatnot still breaks the gearless theme down for me.
Still the tome concept could be something to work with, but it's going to depend entirely on the GM.
On Qinggong, again Quickened is going to depend entirely on GM mercy, but taking scorching ray might be something to work with. If the GM allows reflavoring.
Not giving up on these, but damn is it ever work compared to the other classes.
Thanks for the input and suggestions man.
Well for my 2 cents, the Evil descriptor might be a leftover from an older version of the spell that justified it.
After all the only reason why the arcane healing spell. can´t remember the name right now - is that it uses devil blood or unholy water.
Well.. Monks are not clerics. In this case treat them like wizards.
A good wizard can cast evil spells. I guess spamming them could cause an alignment shift.
If is a forbidden technique, can still be used - make it usable for "worthy" opponents only to justify the [evil] tag.
Clerics of Good can cast inflict just fine. They just can't convert to it spontaneously. Last I checked at least.
As a side note, does Blood Cow Strike keep the "1 round" casting time although it is a spell-like ability for the monk? Or has it "1 standard action" casting time?
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Then I looked up and finally noticed the [Evil] tag for the first time.
DM fiat is probably your best recourse. If you're in PFS there's the option of simply not caring. Most judges won't know unless you tell 'm and there's no restriction on monks to not use evil anyway.
As a side note, does Blood Cow Strike keep the "1 round" casting time although it is a spell-like ability for the monk? Or has it "1 standard action" casting time?
By default spell like abilities have the same cast time as the spell they are biased on.
Clerics of Good can cast inflict just fine. They just can't convert to it spontaneously. Last I checked at least.Which is why I didn' say they could not do it. Just that they are less proficient at it (than the Clerics of Evil who can cast it spontaneously and Channel negative energy) ;-)
They can't use spells with the [evil] descriptor because those spells rely on use of the powers of evil, and good dieties are either unable or unwilling to give clerics the ability to use those powers. Inflict light wounds does not harness the powers of evil for it to function, so it does not have the descriptor nor the restriction.
It does not state anywhere in the rules that the evil descriptor makes casting the spell an evil act.
In my opinion, any reasonable GM will only make it an evil act if the effects of the spell are evil [animating dead might qualify, as would killing a helpless opponent with a spell regardless of descriptors, but infernal healing or blood crow strike certainly wouldn't unless used for an evil purpose].
Also note that it would definitely not change the user's alignment unless the GM specifically ruled that it does [I see no reason why he would in this case]. Alignment changes in general are not covered by the rules, and thus either need to be taken care of by the player or the GM. From the spell atonement:
Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement offers a method for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.
Player: "I use my Ki to cast Blood Crow Strike."
DM: "As I see it has the Evil descriptor on it, if you choose to cast this you will become evi-"
Player: "HADOUKEN!"
Love it!
made me lol
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Mikaze, you must admit that your home game where Good Orcs hug Good Kobolds while picking strawberries together on a sunny Saturday afternoon does somewhat skew your perception on alignments ;-P
That's a load of bull and you know it. My campaign setting doesn't have Saturdays.
By default spell like abilities have the same cast time as the spell they are biased on.
As a side note, does Blood Cow Strike keep the "1 round" casting time although it is a spell-like ability for the monk? Or has it "1 standard action" casting time?
We probably need further clarification on BCS beyond that considering how jumbled up Cold Ice Strike got in the transition from whatever format the Qinggong abilities were originally going to be in to the generic Spell section. Going off of what was said in the Cold Ice Strike thread at least...