Weapon Size
Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
If it's a two handed weapon for your size, you need to use two hands to wield it. The weapon is otherwise too large to use effectively.
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If it's a two handed weapon for your size, you need to use two hands to wield it. The weapon is otherwise too large to use effectively.
He's asking about smaller weapons, not bigger ones. A small Great sword is exactly the same as a Bastard sword, in terms of stats, so it wouldn't be a great sword, it would be a bastard sword. When there isn't a smaller equivalent, they can use it at a -2 penalty to hit, that's what the PRD is saying. Though it would probably be two-handed still, unless it had a smaller duplicate, which most weapons do. Not all, but most.
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The player in my group is playing a dwarf fighter. He wants to use a medium size 2 handed flail 1 handed and wants to know the penalty. His theory is since it says in the desription of the dwarven waraxe he can use it with one hand he should be able to use a 2 handed flail 1 handed.
On page 149 of the core book, the disciption of the dwarven waraxe says a medium creature use's it 2 handed. It also says a dwarf treats it as a martial weapon even when using it 1 handed. But dwarf is a medium creature.
The player in my group is playing a dwarf fighter. He wants to use a medium size 2 handed flail 1 handed and wants to know the penalty. His theory is since it says in the desription of the dwarven waraxe he can use it with one hand he should be able to use a 2 handed flail 1 handed.
On page 149 of the core book, the disciption of the dwarven waraxe says a medium creature use's it 2 handed. It also says a dwarf treats it as a martial weapon even when using it 1 handed. But dwarf is a medium creature.
The bastard sword and dwarven war axes are exceptions to the standard rule. They are two handed weapons, that with special training can be wielded in 1 hand. It's a case where a specific rule over rules the standard.
Normally, 2 handed weapons of your size category (i.e. a medium character wielding a 2 handed medium sized weapon) requires 2 hands to wield. They cannot, by RAW, be wielded effectively in 1 hand.
Since it sounds like you're the GM, and if you wished to let him play the character that way, a good rule of thumb might be to count it as an unproficient user (i.e. -4 to hit) as a house rule.
If it's a two handed weapon for your size, you need to use two hands to wield it. The weapon is otherwise too large to use effectively.He's asking about smaller weapons, not bigger ones.
Actually, no he's not. He wants same sized weapons, not smaller ones.
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The player in my group is playing a dwarf fighter. He wants to use a medium size 2 handed flail 1 handed and wants to know the penalty. His theory is since it says in the desription of the dwarven waraxe he can use it with one hand he should be able to use a 2 handed flail 1 handed.
On page 149 of the core book, the disciption of the dwarven waraxe says a medium creature use's it 2 handed. It also says a dwarf treats it as a martial weapon even when using it 1 handed. But dwarf is a medium creature.
Dwarf is medium. Two handed flail is medium. He needs two hands to use it. Period. You cannot use a two handed weapon in one hand.
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He's asking about smaller weapons, not bigger ones. A small Great sword is exactly the same as a Bastard sword, in terms of stats, so it wouldn't be a great sword, it would be a bastard sword. When there isn't a smaller equivalent, they can use it at a -2 penalty to hit, that's what the PRD is saying. Though it would probably be two-handed still, unless it had a smaller duplicate, which most weapons do. Not all, but most.
Also, there is no 'equivalence' - a bastard sword and a small great sword, while identical for damage and whatnot, are not the same weapon in terms of weighting or whatever fluff you want to use to describe it, and still suffer from the -2 penalty to hit.
Otherwise my Large Frost Battleaxe +1-wielding ranger would be a lot happier.
The player wants to make the medium 2 handed flail his characters thing and hand the knowledge down of how to use it to his ansestors. Not sure if I should make him use a small size 2 hand flail or let him use the -4 for a med. then burn a feat to get better at it.
Thanks for everyones responses.
3.5 had a feat called Monkey Grip with minimal requirements for a Fighter (can't remember what they were but remember I had it once on a 1st lvl Fighter). It let you wield a large weapon in one hand at a -2 penalty. If he'll burn a feat, that seems like a pretty reasonable way to allow him to use a specific two-handed weapon like the flail one-handed.
God, I hope not...
+1 tell your player to stop trying to game the system and being cheesy. If he wants to do something like that use the dwarven waraxe or the bastard sword. Monkey grip needs to die a quick and brutal death.
Derrp I am a Goliath with Monkey Grip and using 2 large sized greatswords TWF. No, just No!
The player wants to make the medium 2 handed flail his characters thing and hand the knowledge down of how to use it to his ansestors. Not sure if I should make him use a small size 2 hand flail or let him use the -4 for a med. then burn a feat to get better at it.
Thanks for everyones responses.
The main differences between the heavy flail and the bastard sword or dwarven waraxe are the special qualities (trip and disarm). If you want to balance the weapon with those, then drop the damage to 1d8 and possibly one of the special qualities.
Dropping the damage to 1d8 makes it possibly equivalent to a temple sword. Dropping the damage to 1d8 and the disarm property makes it equivalent to a khopesh.
Derrp I am a Goliath with Monkey Grip and using 2 large sized greatswords TWF. No, just No!
Goliath with Monkey Grip, pfft, that's child's play. What about the prestige class that allowed the character to dual-wield spiked chains? :)
Anyway: +1 to the suggestions of using dwarven war axe or bastard sword instead. Alternatively, you could let the character invent his own weapon to pass down to his kin. Maybe a "dwarven flail" or something like that. Just balance the new weapon according to the war axe and the bastard sword, and everything should work out fine.
Derrp I am a Goliath with Monkey Grip and using 2 large sized greatswords TWF. No, just No!Goliath with Monkey Grip, pfft, that's child's play. What about the prestige class that allowed the character to dual-wield spiked chains? :)
Nahh I'd rather go War Hulk with the goliath: +2 STR every level, D12 HP and minor DR throw an object and hit multiple squares with it, then have it bouncs and hit another block of squares, cleave on steroids. Miniatures handbook for the cheese :)
In a old 3.5 module, one of the main baddies had a keen raiper and improved crit feat. So he had a critical threat when he rolled a nautural 12 or above.
In PF (and 3.5), those wouldn't work in tandem normally.
Like to know where that dual spiked chain prestige class is.
It's the Cavestalker PrC, in Drow of the Underdark. The 4th-level ability lets you wield a spiked chain in one hand (if you were a TWF-Ranger).
Just a side note
Adding trip to a Dorn-Dergars may work. If that is really want your player is looking for.
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There's a bit of confusion in this thread between 3.0 and 3.5 SRD/D&D.
@Lazar: Weapons had sizes in 3.0 (such as a large greatsword). Weapon sizing in 3.5 works the same as in PF.
@CapeCod: your keen rapier with improved crit was probably a 3.0 adventure, not a 3.5 adventure. In 3.5 and PF, they don't stack. In 3.0, they do. This expands on FarmerBob's reply.
In general
Without a rules resource (feat, class ability, etc.), the dwarf cannot use a heavy flail sized for a Medium creature one-handed. Dwarven waraxe has specific rules; those rules don't translate to all two-handed weapons. Making a houserule that exotic weapon proficiency can allow use of a two-handed weapon in one hand without using a smaller weapon is a course that has been suggested in other threads and seems reasonable.
There are rules that allow you to use a Dorn-Dergars in one hand. Adding Trip would be something you do on your own, but due to the way the weapon works I think trip would be cool with a negative 2-4 on the trip attempt.
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What's important is *why* he wants to wield it one-handed.
The dwarven waraxe is 1d10 x3 slashing.
The heavy flail is 1d10 19-20/x2 bludgeoning.
If you have any cheese concerns at all, tell him to use the stats of the dwarven waraxe, and just describe it in-game as a heavy flail.
But as per the rules, an appropriately sized two-handed weapon requires two hands to use. I mean, he can always wield a regular flail one-handed. And if he wants, he can always wield it in two hands to apply the 1 1/2 str bonus.
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Ok, that post kind of confused me.
-4 with the medium flail?
Do you mean two-weapon fighting with two medium flails?
If he's trying to get two-weapon fighting while leaving an arm open for a shield, that's a bit of cheese.
Note this line from page 141 of the core rule book:
"A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon--only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."
A dwarf counts as a medium creature. Wielding a heavy flail, he wouldn't be at any penalty. Wielding a single regular flail, he wouldn't be at any penalty. two-weapon fighting with two regular flails, with the two-weapon fighting feat would put him at -4.
Otherwise... I'm lost :p
Ok, that post kind of confused me.
-4 with the medium flail?
Do you mean two-weapon fighting with two medium flails?
If he's trying to get two-weapon fighting while leaving an arm open for a shield, that's a bit of cheese.Note this line from page 141 of the core rule book:
"A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon--only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."
A dwarf counts as a medium creature. Wielding a heavy flail, he wouldn't be at any penalty. Wielding a single regular flail, he wouldn't be at any penalty. two-weapon fighting with two regular flails, with the two-weapon fighting feat would put him at -4.
Otherwise... I'm lost :p
The -4 is a potential house rule to allow 2 medium sized heavy flails is mentioned upthread. It's not RAW, just a suggestion if the player really, really wanted to go this route, and CapeCodRPGer wanted to allow it (he's the GM in the current situation).
I wonder if ultimate combat will have anything like that.
Be VERY careful when allowing Monkey Grip or something similar into your game as it is MUCH more powerful than it appears. It was used in 2 campaigns I GM'd and both times it led to overpowered problems.
Imagine a Half-giant(in the Ultimate Psionics conversion) or similar creature with the Powerful Build race feature AND Monkey Grip. We ended up with a Medium sized creature weilding a HUGE sized Glaive(which I think is 4d6 dmg) with 20' of reach.
Ouch.
Combine that with vital strike(weapon would do 8d6 then) and a few other combat feats and you're looking at a PC that can one shot most creatures.
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Ahh, I totally missed that.
If you do allow him to wield the oversized penalty with a -4 penalty, I would strongly suggest not allowing him to use feats to reduce the penalty.
Fighters have a limited number of direct-bonus to weapon damage feats. Basically, the penalty to hit is meant to offset the extra damage potential that this opens up. By allowing him to reduce the penalty by even one point is in effect giving him an extra "weapon focus" feat. It would allow him to supersede the normal damage cap on fighters. It might not seem like a small thing, but it opens up a lot of dangerous doors.
For example, if he can wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, then perhaps in the future he'll want to wield a double weapon in that way and argue that he should be able to use it for two-weapon fighting while wielding it in that manner.
Or, he might argue for larger weapons at greater penalties, and asking for more feats to further offset the penalty.
Again, the easiest way to let the player do it is just to have him use the stats for a different weapon, and describe/call it a heavy mace. It lets him have the theme he wants without risking some future rules problem.
Agreed. Call it a dwarven war flail but have it duplicate the dwarven waraxe statblock other than it is bludgeoning damage rather than slashing. Reskinning existing statblocks with alternate names and descriptions is much better (imho) than altering rules to accommodate something wonky.
I have a player playing a monk PC whose background would never have him throwing shuriken. His background would allow for throwing knives, though, so we reskinned the shuriken stats and called them throwing knives. It's worked out well. /salute!
Removed a post - please don't copy & paste material that isn't Open Game Content.
Agreed. Call it a dwarven war flail but have it duplicate the dwarven waraxe statblock other than it is bludgeoning damage rather than slashing. Reskinning existing statblocks with alternate names and descriptions is much better (imho) than altering rules to accommodate something wonky.
+1 but one change: Make the dwarven war flail an exotic weapon like the bastard sword. In this case "dwarven" doesn't mean it counts as a martial weapon because he is a dwarf. So probably "Bastard War Flail".
He takes the feat "Bastard War Flail" (exotic weapon prof.) and so can wield the War Flail one-handed. Stats are the same as for the Bastard Sword, just bludgeoning damage (and are still exactly the stats of a war flail).
No -4.
Why? The only difference to the bastard sword is the type of damage, so there is no mechanical gain and no reason for a -4.
So I'm the only one here who though he wanted to wield a cat the same size as him?
So I'm the only one here who though he wanted to wield a cat the same size as him?
No I'm right behind you
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The player wants to make the medium 2 handed flail his characters thing and hand the knowledge down of how to use it to his ansestors. Not sure if I should make him use a small size 2 hand flail or let him use the -4 for a med. then burn a feat to get better at it.
Thanks for everyones responses.
A Medium two handed flail cannot be wielded one handed by a medium character, RAW.
The player wants to make the medium 2 handed flail his characters thing and hand the knowledge down of how to use it to his ancestors. Not sure if I should make him use a small size 2 hand flail or let him use the -4 for a med. then burn a feat to get better at it.
Thanks for everyone's responses.
actually if he wants it that bad over the dwarven waraxe it sounds more like powergaming to me. It sounds like he's trying to justify his case with fluff and story so he can use a 2-handed only weapon that has trip ,disarm, and a higher crit range. It's in all ways superior to the dwarven war axe if not for requiring two hands, you take that away and it's completely superior. i think your player is trying to trap you.
Dwarves get to use there racial axe in one hand because they train with it from youth. other characters can accomplish this as well but they need to spend a feat to do so. Even if a dwarf has no interest in the dwarven war axe he has no choice, it's a part of there culture. But a dwarf is not going to train his son to give up a peace of his culture just so he can take up another weapon instead. His race might even look down on him for this as it would be an insult to his heritage.
Now the other posters have it right. per raw there is no legal way to allow this and you should think VERY carefully on allowing it in your game for the reasons i mentioned earlier. Now if you want to houserule it then feel free. As mentioned above you could allow him to take monkey grip. or, i have another proposal but it's a houserule.
have him take the heirloom weapon trait
HOUSERULE-
Alternate Racial Trait (dwarf)
Nontraditional Clan: Dwarven notoriety revolves around there clan. On rare occasions dwarves start new clans for varying reasons. Even rarer still are clans that start there own family traditions outside the norm of dwarven society. A Dwarf who selects this trait belongs to a clan who has neglected there focus of dwarven weapons in favor of a clan weapon. A dwarf from such a clan has adapted his racial weapon training to a nontraditional dwarven weapon. Dwarves who select this racial trait choose either a single one handed melee weapon,a double weapon,or a two handed melee weapon. You gain martial weapon proficiency in that type of weapon and treat it as a martial weapon for all purposes. If a two handed weapon is chosen it may be wielded in one hand but you suffer a -2 penalty to attack roles and Combat maneuvers. If you attack with a two handed weapon in such a way you suffer a -2 to your CMB until your next turn even if the weapon is returned to two hands.
Additionally you suffer a -2 penalty to all diplomacy checks involving dwarves.
you must posses the heirloom weapon trait to select this alternate racial trait. This racial trait replaces the weapon familiarity trait.
cheers,
So I'm the only one here who though he wanted to wield a cat the same size as him?I thought he was going to dual wield a flail and a cat. Most awesome image ever, dwarven flail/cat fighter.
Who needs a cat-o-nine-tails when you can use the whole cat!
This whole thing strikes me as a non-issue. You want to use a flail in one hand without penalty? There are stats for that right on the equipment list--"flail" under martial one-handed weapons. If you want something better then that, you could burn a feat for an exotic weapon. Maybe bump the die up a notch or add a pip to the crit
Bastard Flail: Exotic one-handed weapon,
1d10, 20x2, B, 8lbs. disarm, trip
or
1d8, 19-20x2, B, 8lbs. disarm,trip
Can be used as a martial 2 handed weapon without the exotic proficiency (like a bastard sword)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Small sized 2 handed flail is a medium sized one handed flail...
In 3.0 D&D yes, in Pathfinder (and 3.5 D&D) no. see above.
Edit: And yes I thought he was wielding a cat too.