Does Ustalav make sense?

[Spacelard]

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Spacelard wrote:

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

I've recently been reading a lot old Serbian folktales.

KAM, any books or other sources you'd recommend in particular from these?

Frazer's Golden Bough is packed full of stuff. Try and find the full on version if you can. Loads of bits about Sympathetic Magic which seems to be wide spread in Ustalav.

And we we all use sympathetic magic today to a certain extent... I'm sure everyone can come up with something :D

Thanks, Spacelard, I've got two different versions of the GB. Where are you finding a "full on" version? My understanding is that Frazier kept adding to it throughout his life, and it was something like 8+ volumes in its latest version.

The 12 volume set is in my local library :)

I have the 1922 abridged volume

EDIt: C'thulhu GM of old :D

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Spacelard wrote:

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Spacelard wrote:

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

I've recently been reading a lot old Serbian folktales.

KAM, any books or other sources you'd recommend in particular from these?

Frazer's Golden Bough is packed full of stuff. Try and find the full on version if you can. Loads of bits about Sympathetic Magic which seems to be wide spread in Ustalav.

And we we all use sympathetic magic today to a certain extent... I'm sure everyone can come up with something :D

Thanks, Spacelard, I've got two different versions of the GB. Where are you finding a "full on" version? My understanding is that Frazier kept adding to it throughout his life, and it was something like 8+ volumes in its latest version.

The 12 volume set is in my local library :)

I have the 1922 abridged volume

EDIt: C'thulhu GM of old :D

My library has the full set too. I read it as a kid. Served me very well when I studied anthropology in college.

[Mairkurion {tm}]

OT:

COOL. I wish I had a better library right now. :(

[Helaman]

I got a lot of this from a website out there that sort of has a D&D meets the Dresden files feel and decided to steal and alter some of it to fit my low magic E6 game.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Common Defenses Versus the Supernatural or Magical
All sorts of horrible monsters stalk the average fantasy world. Against many of these creatures, the common people have little defense. How do the common folk manage to stay alive when a single mob of shadows could lay waste to the average hamlet?
Adventurers are a big help but Adventurers aren’t supposed to be a dime a dozen. They can’t be everywhere all the time. What common means of defense against supernatural monsters exist? Knowing these could range from a DC10 to DC20 roll depending on whether the information sought is general, specific to a class of supernatural threat or specific to a particular individual type of threat.

Fire

Spoiler:

With many supernatural or abnormal threats someone’s probably going to set some thing on fire in order to destroy it. Fire has a long history of use as a purifier. In the game, fire gets deployed a lot, especially against regenerating monsters and when taking out groups of foes conveniently clustered together in fireball formation. Other monsters, such as mummies, have well-known vulnerabilities to fire.

Some creatures have a lesser vulnerability to fire. Against fire-based attacks, these monsters suffer +1 point of dam-age per damage die. Fire-users need to take care, however. Not all lesser vulnerabilities to fire apply to mundane fire. In these cases, only magical fire causes extra damage.

Holy Symbols

Spoiler:

What could be more iconic than the stalwart monster hunter holding a vampire at bay with a boldly presented cruci-fix? Anyone can present a holy symbol associated with their faith in an attempt to hold supernatural evil at bay. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity targeted against vulnerable creatures within a 30-foot spread who have both line of sight to the presenter and the holy symbol.
If the presenter has faith in the symbol/religion, the presenter makes a Will save which is opposed by the Will saves of the affected creatures. If an affected creature’s Will save is less than the presenter’s Will save, then the affected creature is dazed for 1 round. If the presenter scores a natural 20 on his Will save, all affected creatures within range are dazed for 1 round regardless of their respective Will saves. The presenter can attempt to hold supernatural evil at bay repeatedly.
One cannot attempt this mundane use of a holy symbol while using the channel energy class feature but those who possess the channel energy class feature add 1 to the roll for every D6 of energy they could manifest – which can be counted towards the generation of a ‘natural 20’ result.

Iron

Spoiler:

Iron (and steel) also works quite well against incorporeal undead, as well as the Fey. Normal iron’s properties affect the fey and the incorporeal undead differently:
Normal iron and fey: Normal iron doesn’t just bypass DR, it does harm fey creatures. A normal iron or steel weapon enjoys a +50% bonus to damage rolls against fey. An iron implement (such as a horseshoe) that is held against a fey’s skin for one full round burns the fey creature for 1d6 points of damage. Even touching iron is generally enough to cause pain and possibly inflict a point or two of damage.

Normal iron and incorporeal undead: Normal iron weapons (including improvised weapons) cannot inflict damage on an incorporeal undead, but they can disrupt its form. Striking an incorporeal undead with an iron weapon forces the monster to make a DC 15 Will save. If it fails, the incorporeal undead is disrupted.

While disrupted, the incorporeal undead can only take a single move action each round. It becomes invisible and cannot be harmed by weapons of any type. Magic and channeling energy can still harm a disrupted incorporeal undead. Each round at the beginning of its turn, a disrupted incorporeal undead gets to make a DC 15 Will save as a free action. If it succeeds, it is no longer disrupted and may act normally. A disrupted incorporeal undead gets a +1 bonus on this Will save for each round that it has been disrupted.

Running Water

Spoiler:

Some supernatural creatures cannot cross running water. They can’t even use bridges or fly over running water. This is one more reason why most communities are built near rivers or streams.
When confronted with running water, a supernatural creature with this vulnerability can attempt a DC 15 Will save. Success allows it to cross the running water, but the creature is treated as if staggered during the crossing. Failure means the monster simply cannot cross under its own power. It could, however, have a minion or vehicle carry it, but during the crossing the creature is treated as helpless. The monster is only ever allowed one saving throw to cross any particular body of running water.

Many magics can also be ended by running water… immersing the subject of a spell in running water or under heavy rain reduces the duration of a spell by 1 hour for every full round in the water.

This could be where the idea of drowning witches comes from... its just sometimes they forget its "Running water". People trying to immerse a caster in a water barrel may be in for a rude surprise.

Salt

Spoiler:

Salt purifies and preserves. In some places during certain times in human history, salt has literally been worth its weight in gold. Without salt, food spoils more quickly and sickness and death await. Against certain supernatural creatures, salt has two uses. First, it can form an effective barrier, and salt can also cause damage.

Salt barrier: As a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a inch or more width of a line of salt can be poured across a single side of a 5-foot square. Creatures susceptible to salt cannot move across this line using any innate means. This includes all modes of movement as well as spell-like and supernatural abilities. The salt line does not prevent the creature from attacking across the line, however, so salt users had best move back to avoid reach.
Also, while the creature cannot directly affect the line of salt, it can use a variety of means to break the line’s integrity. A gust of wind can blow the salt away or water can wash it away. Thus, in many instances, a salt barrier provides only temporary security.

Contact with salt: Salt susceptible monsters who are exposed to salt’s touch for one full round suffer 1d6 points of damage from the contact of a handful of salt. The touch of a lesser amount is painful to such undead that can acknowledge pain.

Silver

Spoiler:

Creatures without DR /silver that are vulnerable to silver suffer +2 points of damage from silver weapons (including improvised weapons like a silver candlestick holder). A silver item (such as a silver piece) that is held against a vul-nerable creature’s skin for one full round burns the creature for 1d6 points of damage. This applies to creatures with DR /silver as well as those that are just vulnerable to silver. Shape changers tend to be susceptible to silver.

Sunlight/Sunrise

Spoiler:

The sun’s light chases away the darkness and the creatures that live in it. It is the most common defense against supernatural evil, even if one must survive for several hours before it can be put into play. In many folk tales and fantasy stories, all sorts of creatures can’t stand the light of day.
Several creatures already have sunlight vulnerability or light weakness. These game effects are well-defined.
Long duration magics are generally greatly weakened or dispelled by sun rise and sun set (each sunrise/sunset is held as an additional 12 hour period), lessening durations accordingly and sometimes drastically. Summoned Creatures cannot last beyond this threshold of time and return to their place of origin.

Thresholds

Spoiler:

Before inviting that handsome stranger into the house, make sure he’s not a vampire or some other sort of supernatural beast. Everyone knows that vampire’s (or similar foes) been invited, they can enter at will.
Creatures with a full threshold weakness cannot enter a building unless invited – a partial threshold weakness will greatly weaken the creature if it forces entry. It must be a resident who invites the creature, but not relevant if the invitation is gained via deceit or magic. Of course, this weakness doesn’t prevent the creature from setting the build-ing on fire or sending in minions. Spell casters lose a variable number of levels when entering uninvited to a dwelling, depending on the relative strength of the threshold.
Only personal dwellings are so protected – Inns, places of commerce or areas open to the public offer no protection. Religious sites will have a similar protection but one that is based on the faith of those within it.

Monsters susceptible to iron, salt, silver, and holy symbols can also be kept from entering a building if the appropriate item is affixed or poured near the various entrances. Hanging an iron horseshoe over the front door doesn’t just bring good luck. It also helps keep malicious fey out of the living room. One needs to take care that all potential entrances are so warded. The horseshoe over the front door might stop a goblin from entering through a window…. and a well stoked fire should keep them out of the Chimney.

Putting these Common Defenses into play
Since these are the commoner’s methods of defense against the supernatural, it stands to reason that the various methods are well-known. Knowledge of when these defenses are appropriate is generally a DC 10 or 15 check.
If the PCs suspect that they will be facing evil fey, then they may be well advised to stock up on iron weapons and to bring along a sack of iron nails and horsehoes to affix near building entrances. If its known that a monster sighted in the area is one that can also be held at bay by a boldly presented holy symbol, this can be critical to the groups safety , when in desperate situations, even the devout fighter can whip out a holy symbol and have a chance to daze the monster before it can gut the party’s wizard.

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

This is all really excellent. I'll probably grab and drop it in for my home games since it fits the folklore without being overpowered.

A few small caveats/adjustments:

With Holy Symbols, I'd limit the repelling the undead etc. to the holy symbols of Good gods, and a limited number of LN and N gods if it fits the precepts of their faith. For example, those who worship Pharasma should be able to show her symbol to undead and repel them because by Pharasma's decree, they should not be here, and likewise Abadar's faithful could repel them if it were in some way unlawful.

I'm reminded of the folktale about the rabbi and the possessed woman, and the rabbi told to the devil to leave because it had possessed the woman unlawfully, and the devil countered with the fact that the woman had gone to the theatre and that's where he'd possessed her, and since the theatre was the devil's domain, it was totally legal. Which the rabbi agreed to.

Which goes on to the point that there are a lot of theatre superstitions as well, and some of those should have some truth to them, and in fact that goes true of all sorts of public buildings. There's traditional magic with a smith, so a smithy should be a good protection against some things, especially the fey with all the iron, but also likely devils and some undead. And with an inn, if the undead could just waltz right in the door, no one would want to go in there, and all the local ones would soon switch to becoming bed and breakfasts.

Of course it depends on your folklore, but as I recently had a game where an undead child was pressing its nose up against the windows of the inn in the middle of a storm since it could not enter, I'd rather keep that, but I like having some official mechanic.

Helaman wrote:

I got a lot of this from a website out there that sort of has a D&D meets the Dresden files feel and decided to steal and alter some of it to fit my low magic E6 game.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Common Defenses Versus the Supernatural or Magical
All sorts of horrible monsters stalk the average fantasy world. Against many of these creatures, the common people have little defense. How do the common folk manage to stay alive when a single mob of shadows could lay waste to the average hamlet?
Adventurers are a big help but Adventurers aren’t supposed to be a dime a dozen. They can’t be everywhere all the time. What common means of defense against supernatural monsters exist? Knowing these could range from a DC10 to DC20 roll depending on whether the information sought is general, specific to a class of supernatural threat or specific to a particular individual type of threat.

Fire
** spoiler omitted **

Holy Symbols
** spoiler omitted **...

[Wolf Munroe]

Threadsurrection!

There's some great stuff in here. I have Rule of Fear but I want more stuff on Ustalav.

[F. Wesley Schneider]

Wolf Munroe wrote:

Threadsurrection!

There's some great stuff in here. I have Rule of Fear but I want more stuff on Ustalav.

Then be sure to tune in in 2013. There's more on the way.

Not whole book "more," but still more. :)

[Greg Wasson]

Cool beans, my group is starting Carrion Crown after the new year. Honestly, I hadn't given Ustalav much thought at all until reading this thread.

Greg

[The Drunken Dragon]

Personally, I think it makes perfect sense. Ustalav has its own hidden dangers and supernatural threats...territorial threats. I'm pretty sure the Whispering Way would care having demonic invaders or orcish hordes muscling in on their territory. Seriously, I think one big reason no one tried to invade Ustalav is because it's scariness is equal to that of the Worldwound and Belkzen. Orcish warlords? So what? Ustalav's got miles of deadly forests full of werewolves, dark horrors, ancient relics of the Elder Gods, cities ruled by vampiric undergrounds, and the influence of the strongest lich in Golarion history. I don't think even the hordes of the Abyss have the stones to touch that with a ten foot pole. And a people that can live their daily lives in such environment could easily toss out a couple of angry orcs or demons, no problem.

[TheLoneCleric]

Basically, it's a miltarized nation which also happens to be a capstone on a prison to THE MOST POWERFUL LICH on the planet. No one wants to go storming in and accidently let Tar Baphon out. NO ONE.

Mix in all the factions like the cults, monsters, and power brokers. Ustalav has kinda become covert monster central. It's neutral territory.

Ya.

Go attack that mess.

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Exactly. Imagine Tar Baphon's reaction once he wakes up. In addition to his home territory having all the werewolves, ghosts, and vampires an evil overlord could ever wish for, look at what the neighbors have:

Belken -- Orc hordes? Hordes of highly militarized orcs? What evil overlord doesn't want those? So classic and stylish. And it saves all the trouble and mess of having to breed them in pits too.

The World Wound -- An endless font of demons? For me? You shouldn't have! None of that messy pact business like dealing with devils either. Just bind them, enslave them, and if they get destroyed, there's more where that came from. Seriously, what's not to love?

Numeria -- Death Rays? And sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads? Oh stop! You're spoiling me! It's like getting the entire Crystalhue Wish Book from the Sharper Image for Villains.

From the Whispering Tyrant's perspective, Ustalav is just Location, Location, Location.

This is why the neighbors do not invade.

[Tacticslion]

Dot.

[TheLoneCleric]

Tacticslion wrote:

Dot.

Okay. What the hell is this DOT stuff about?

[Icyshadow]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Ustalav has a reputation of being haunted, so nobody wants to invade and take possession of the territory.

I call this the "Scooby Doo" defense.

I could imagine Orcs laughing at stories of ghosts, Demons even more so.

Demon: "Haunted? I eat ectoplasm for breakfast! I'M A BLASPHEMY SPELL THAT WALKS LIKE A MAN!!"

[Landon Winkler]

TheLoneCleric wrote:

Okay. What the hell is this DOT stuff about?

When you have a post in a thread, it displays with a dot next to it in the list. It makes it easier to pick out.

I interpret it as "I approve of this thread and want to keep track of it." But I never do it, so I might be making things up!

Cheers!
Landon

[TheLoneCleric]

Ah. I just favorite good threads. Easy to track.

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Icyshadow wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Ustalav has a reputation of being haunted, so nobody wants to invade and take possession of the territory.

I call this the "Scooby Doo" defense.

I could imagine Orcs laughing at stories of ghosts, Demons even more so.

Demon: "Haunted? I eat ectoplasm for breakfast! I'M A BLASPHEMY SPELL THAT WALKS LIKE A MAN!!"

Demons, metaphysically speaking, are the ground up flayed remnants of chaotic evil souls that were too weak to resist being judged by Pharasma and punted off to the lower planes.

Ghosts are the souls of creatures of all alignments that had such strong willpower and an overwhelming need to do whatever it is they can't rest without doing to the point where they spurn not just the goddess of death itself but the goddess of undeath too.

A demon wants to eat THAT? It's welcome to try, but unless "Being eaten by a demon" was on the ghost's "to do" list, I know who I'm betting on.

[LazarX]

Captain Marsh wrote:

I do hope that Paizo manages to thread the needle on this continuity stuff better than, say, WOTC did with Eberron.

In Eberron there were seventy kajillion different evil menaces all of roughly Sauronic power, all poised to destroy the world.

I did not get that sense from the Eberron material at least the 3.5 stuff. There were several menaces of note, but of varying levels of scope. And quite a few of them were political in nature, not apocalyptic.

[Tacticslion]

Pretty much what you said, Laz.

Landon Winkler wrote:

TheLoneCleric wrote:

Okay. What the hell is this DOT stuff about?

When you have a post in a thread, it displays with a dot next to it in the list. It makes it easier to pick out.

I interpret it as "I approve of this thread and want to keep track of it." But I never do it, so I might be making things up!

Cheers!
Landon

TheLoneCleric wrote:

Ah. I just favorite good threads. Easy to track.

Honestly, I don't know how to favorite a thread, but I favorite too many quotes to only use that to keep track of things.

Pretty much a dot is a quick, "holding this until I can add more", and it's a useful thing for me to do at times, pretty much exactly like Landon said.

[proftobe]

Tar baphon killed a demigod back in the day. I assure you the demon prince in charge of the world wound knows and nobody wants big daddy baphon back. The orcs probably raid but don't go to deep and are out of there before dark. The orcs are a plundering horde not an occupying army with resources to deal with all that eldritch horror. Numerians are all to caught up in their own issues. I actually think the three nations keep more disciplined armies with better resources who are willing to clean out the dark forces and more willing to ignore the threat of TB being freed.

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Icyshadow wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

Ustalav has a reputation of being haunted, so nobody wants to invade and take possession of the territory.

I call this the "Scooby Doo" defense.

I could imagine Orcs laughing at stories of ghosts, Demons even more so.

Demon: "Haunted? I eat ectoplasm for breakfast! I'M A BLASPHEMY SPELL THAT WALKS LIKE A MAN!!"

A modest rebuttal

Specifically the final three panels.

[TheLoneCleric]

Irnk. Got it in one.

[MarkusTay]

I'm fairly new to the setting, so forgive any naïveté on my part. People (above) have brought up some very good points, especially the whole 'superstition' and 'Scooby Doo' defense angle. Just because Orcs aren't afraid of regular folk doesn't mean they wouldn't avoid 'creepy' types (because despite some very poor portrayals, not all 'bad guys' will work together - if anything, evil types are more prone to in-fighting). Add in a general disorganization across the entire greater region (not just the Orcs) and you can see how its more a 'small group' raiding thing across most of those borders rather then full-scale war (which is not cost-effective at all).

The one thing I would like to add to all of this is the concept of 'buffer zones'. Having only recently 'ingested' the Inner Sea guide (and the world of Golarion), I actually got the impression the Last wall and Mendev were very similar concepts. In fact, so much so that they are actually 'in competition' with each other (for resources, which includes manpower). The demons could (probably) easily take over Ustalav, but then what? They would have just united Last wall and Mendev into a united front against them. Demons may be chaotic, but they are not stupid. They'd then be fighting a war on two fronts. They cannot move into Ustalav in-force and leave Mendev behind them. Better to leave those Last-Wallers sitting on their haunches doing nothing until after Mendev falls.

That... plus Tar Baphon can most-likely bind/control many demon lords, and no-one really knows if he's going to wake up or not. Better to rule in World Wound then to serve in Ustalav.

[PMárk]

What a great topic!

I'm a hungarian guy, lover of gothic horror and overall, aesthetics, so I was adored, when I firstly saw the campaign setting's Ustalav entry. I never played Ravenloft, though working on to read the (at least most relevant) material. But I read the Rule of Fear, prince of wolves and planning to GMing the CC to my friends.

Personally my personal tought is that Ustalav is a more realistic, more integrated into the wolrd, liveable, yet grimmy setting in comparison to Ravenloft, which is very-very cool, but ultimately is a deathtrap (although I read the other's comments about the changes in later editions).

Wes's posts are just great, adds very much to the feeling of the country and I wish there will be more directy Ustalav-oriented, more fluffy-less crunchy expansions in the future. The concept, in my opinion is one of the best attempts to integrate a gothic horror setting into a high fantasy world. Personally, I really-really like the idea of an ocassional orc raiding party's conversaton on the top of a hill at the sunset in Ustalav's border

Chief: but, wise shaman, there is a village in the valley with only peasants and a bunch of weak human soldiers! Would be a child's play!
Shaman: No.
Chief: But their ruler is long gone! See? His castle above is totaly abandoned!!!!
Shaman: I sayed No.
Chief: But the boyz are hungry! We had a long march behind us!

And the sun goes down, chilly fog starts to emerge from the woods and howls heared from the direction of the abandoned castle.

Chief: ... I go and open up another can of dried reendeer.
Shaman: Smart boy.

One note to the "superstitons" thread: I always imagined that as Robert Jordan wrote it in the first few books of Wheel of Time. The people konws that magic exists, but most of them never seen a true magic-user and spells, at least nothing greater than cantrips. Those, who doesn't live in close tto the borders most likely never met an orc (ggod for them). However, for citizens of great cities, magic at some extent is a part of life and those who live near the borders, or more remote places, monsters are a real threat.

[Thanael]

If you love Ustalav you should definately check out Ravenloft too. Come on over to the Fraternity of Shadows website and forums..

[Juda de Kerioth]

Sunderstone wrote:

I havent had the time to read Rule of Fear yet, but I've always wondered about the outside threats to Ustalav and how they would cope.

Don´t waste your time reading it. It is a worthless product to read, it has a bunch of flaws (Kavapesta). just read the CCAP or Inner Sea Worldguide.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Scooby doo defense sounds right! Anyone leading a force there could end up like that Baratheon would be king i.e. death by strange things in the dark in this case swap wraith by evil vampire baron in gaseous form

[Juda de Kerioth]

Thanael wrote:

If you love Ustalav you should definately check out Ravenloft too. Come on over to the Fraternity of Shadows website and forums..

I have mixed Ustalav and Ravenloft :3 Tar-Baphon was actualy known as Vecna in my Campaign.

And change the time elapsed. now in Ustalav is the year 755 BC

[Wrath]

Juda de Kerioth wrote:

Sunderstone wrote:

I havent had the time to read Rule of Fear yet, but I've always wondered about the outside threats to Ustalav and how they would cope.

Don´t waste your time reading it. It is a worthless product to read, it has a bunch of flaws (Kavapesta). just read the CCAP or Inner Sea Worldguide.

Disagree completely here. I've read it and am happily using it to help flesh out parts of my Carrion Crown campaign. I actually found this one to be one of the best regional source books they've written.

[PMárk]

Yup, I liked Rule of Fear too. That and the CC's journal entries together give a good picture.

On the Ravenloft thing: I continously read myself through the material and come to the consequence, that Ravenloft is the absolute, full-blown-out gothic mayhem. And it's low fantasy and a whole world in itself. I love it and it's pleasure to read it only for the feeling! At some point I want to GM-ing/playing here. I actually thinking about making some connections betveen Ustalav and Ravenloft. You know, bastardhall, mists, old ones, a gate to Azalin's castle at the bottom of Gallowspire sort of thing.

Thanael, thanks for the link, it contains a lot of excelent material! The pf adaptation is pretty good.

Anyway, Ustalav's beauty is that it is a piece of a larger world and do it in a way that makes sense. And It has more fantasy elements naturally. I don't think it's a diluted version of Ravenloft, the two are in the same genre, but in different tone and both are cool.

[Juda de Kerioth]

PMárk wrote:

At some point I want to GM-ing/playing here. I actually thinking about making some connections betveen Ustalav and Ravenloft.

Do as I did in mine (I start with the Conjuntion in Ustalav [Tar-Baphon, nor Azalin created it, still Azalin has his own event in that plane])... Put the mist in Ustalav, the Vistani and then, the folklore about people abducted or who get through into that mist (this way you can create the propper atmosphere), and never came Back, and if they do, they´re not the same as they used to be... so, in fact, that simply element import more macabre enviroments issues, hazards, sense of danger in the wilderness... Also, I change the current coin for Pathfinder (they´re no more CP, SP, GP, PP, they´re iron coins with different values and in ravenloft,every domain has its own coins... so, non are compatible).

Sometimes, when I want to drop an enconunter, suddendly the mist appears in any place they are (yes, even inside buildings) and you can hear screams and people yielling from inside the dense and macabre mist, and then the encounter beggins (this means that those creature came from ravenloft).

And that way you have a two completely separete scenarios/campaigns without destroying Ravenloft, and lets yo to try somtimes in one or another settings.

The bad thing is that you have to read a lot... and realize how two worlds works together.

[PMárk]

Like your ideas, especially the integration of the mists (thoght I wouldn't use them in every random encounter).

I start to think about: what if the connection with Ravenloft actually one of the reasons the country be the way it is? Maybe, "thanks" to some... something the connection with Ustalav is far more permanent and crossable, than with other prime materials? I see potential in the Tar-Baphon/Azalin thing and the whispering cult, and the old cults and even such things as the menhirs near Lepidstadt and the strangenesses around the founder of the Order of the Palatine Eye. Maybe, thanks to that connection, the "lurkers in the dark" somehow gravitate toward the country, or have a slightly greater power here.

I need to dig in more to the vistani-scarnzi theme...

[Heine Stick]

Wrath wrote:

Juda de Kerioth wrote:

Sunderstone wrote:

I havent had the time to read Rule of Fear yet, but I've always wondered about the outside threats to Ustalav and how they would cope.

Don´t waste your time reading it. It is a worthless product to read, it has a bunch of flaws (Kavapesta). just read the CCAP or Inner Sea Worldguide.

Disagree completely here. I've read it and am happily using it to help flesh out parts of my Carrion Crown campaign. I actually found this one to be one of the best regional source books they've written.

I find myself in agreement. Rule of Fear is among the better regional books Paizo has put out. Excellent writing and a good gazetteer of the haunted nation.

Also, for those of youw who might have missed it, here's the blurb on Kavapesta that Wes Schneider was kind enough to post on the forums a while back:

Kavapesta: The largest city in Amaans and a holy city for Pharasmins, Kavapesta is a somber place possessed by a dour variety of religious fanaticism. The city takes its name from Mother Kavapesta, a Pharasmin missionary and teacher whose sermons on perseverance and suffering laid the foundations for the philosophies today known as the Pharasmin Penitence. After the priestess's death, her followers began the construction of Cryptgate Cathedral, which through centuries of renovations and expansions would become the largest church and monastery of Pharasma in the nation. The effort of constructing this monument and the tombs beneath brought droves of pilgrims to the banks of Lake Divirmis, which the faithful eventually renamed Lake Kavapesta. With the cathedral's completion, the assembled congregation lingered on, hoping to create a community based on the tenets of their faith. This community grew slowly, finally becoming the city known today.

Yet a city needs more than faith to survive, a fact the people of Kavapesta stubbornly defy. The foothills around the city are poorly suited to farming and the lake is tainted by poisonous minerals from the Hungry Mountains. A few mines in the surrounding hills scrape tin and coal out of the earth, though one has to wonder if the coin won from these efforts is worth the lives lost to cave-ins, choking maladies, and more mysterious disappearances. But worst of all are the plagues, the rampant sicknesses that seem to boil up from lake Kavapesta once a generation and burn through the city like a field fire. Scourges like the Whithers, Tol's Voice, and, most fearfully, the Black Breath have killed thousands in their beds, with lesser scares and reemergences occurring every few years. But the people claim that their city is blessed - not cursed like so many visitors say - insisting that each new calamity is a test from Pharasma and an opportunity for the citizens to experience ever greater trials, assuring greater rewards after death.

[Flynn Greywalker]

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

I can't agree that Ustalav is undefended.

A major reason you hear about the warlike aspects of its bordering countries is because we’ve said little more about them. Take away the military of Lastwall, the savagery of the orcs, and the invasiveness of the demons of the Worldwound and there's not much left to those regions. I hope someday we get to explore any of these regions in greater detail and make that not the case, but for not, there's not much hyperbole in this statement. That's not the case with Ustalav, though. In Ustalav, the shades of gothic horror are important and the thousands of terrifying plots waiting to be run there. Their relationships with neighbors they generally don't like, less so.

But does that mean Ustalav is defenseless? No way. Is its military focused on in Rule of Fear, no - generally because even if I had had another 64 pages to go on I still wouldn't have enough room to fill the book with all the gothic horror plots and characters and ideas I wanted to. But does that mean there's no details on the country's military? Not the case. Lets start at the top:

Prince Aduard Ordranti III himself is a military ruler, even if any rank he attained before his coronation was ceremonial, his heart is with the nation's soldiers. Page 17 references his "appreciation for military life," "touring the forts of the northern and western borders," and his favor with the "country's fighting men."

So there's at least proof that the military exists, now lets see what they can do.

The county of Ordranto stands as a vulnerable point in the nation's northern defenses, only a thin strip of river guarding a border defended - with few gaps - elsewhere by deadly forests, high mountains, broad rivers, or an inland sea. Page 22 and 23 go on at length about the castles in the region and Ustalav's defense against barbarian raiders, but the merciless efficacy of the nation's military (not to mention their hatred for their ancient foes can be seen in the description of the Ground of Lost Tears,...

Plus Wesley the counties of Barstoi, the Aamans, Caliphas, Varno, and Caliphas have forts, military units and mercenaries from Brevoy possibly. And the Knights of Ozem (which are seen in at least one county), would mount a formidable defense against the orcs of Belkzen, Ramziran or the River Kingdoms.

[Joe Hex]

The OP's points are valid. So far, in my campaign the issue of outside threats has not come up. As a GM, I'd handle it as a case of the horror of the land 'swelling' to compensate to an outside invasion- like the darkness of the land itself is defending itself.
This heightened level of gothic crazy makes the realm not worth invading... It's a cursed land. Why would they want to occupy such a place.
The folks living there have an ancestral investment to the nation, blinding them to the point, that they are enough apart of the darkness that they are in too deep, that they to want to stay.

Basically what I'm saying, is the nation itself is too creepy to want to subject your invading force to.

That idea might not work for everyone, but it's what I would use.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

After a few years gaming in the world of Golarion, I can now say that Ustalav makes less sense than I originally thought... if you have paladins crusading around Lastwall and Mendev, it makes no sense that they wouldn't have pushed north to "purify" Ustalav and thus attack the Worldwound on two fronts, over the centuries...

[Zhangar]

I don't think purifying Ustalav is actually possible. Some threats - like werewolf country - are more managable than others. But Castle Kronquist or Bastard Hall or Gallowspire... Naw. Not happening without PC intervention.

Even if you nuked the site from orbit - a disturbingly large number of things there would recover from that, and now be radioactive.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

What a hell hole...

[ENHenry]

My thinking is, if you wanted to purify Ustalav, you would need to destroy Tar-Baphon completely. Ustalav being the way it is is the price for Tar-Baphon's imprisonment. That, the militaries in place, and the fact that there are very few natural resources there desired by others, make it not worth the time for any of its hostile neighbors.

[Heine Stick]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

After a few years gaming in the world of Golarion, I can now say that Ustalav makes less sense than I originally thought... if you have paladins crusading around Lastwall and Mendev, it makes no sense that they wouldn't have pushed north to "purify" Ustalav and thus attack the Worldwound on two fronts, over the centuries...

In both cases (Lastwall and Mendev), I don't think it's quite that simple. Reading the lore, it seems to me that the crusaders in Mendev struggling to keep the demonic hordes of the Worldwound at bay are stretched *very* thin. This has forced them to reinforce their ranks with mercenaries and glory seekers. This implies to me that they really can't afford to open up another front (Ustalav).

The paladins in Lastwall might have been an option, but I'm fairly certain that many of the aforementioned beleagured paladins participating in the Mendevian Crusades *are* from Lastwall. The Lastwall paladins also have another threat to consider - the Hold of Belkzen.

Finally, should those paladins actually manage to form an army with the purpose of invading Ustalav, they'd have the local counts and their armies to contend with. Sure, there's evil afoot in the principality, but there's also nobility there that likely won't just relinquish their lands to an invading force. Yet another potential powder keg the thinly-stretched paladins from Lastwall and Mendev would do well to contemplate before they decide to invade Ustalav in the name of Good.

So, demons in the Worldwound, orcs from the Hold, internal politicking and division among the military organizations that comprise the Mendevian Crusades, an unknown number of more or less powerful undead loyal to Tar-Baphon, Ustlavic nobility, and whatever else lurks in the dense forests and mountains of Ustalav all combine to make Ustalav a relative nonissue for the paladins, I think. Not because they don't *want* to deal with the evil within Ustalav, but because they simply *can't*.

As I see it, any hesitation the paladins might have makes perfect sense. That's my two cents, anyway. :)

[Juda de Kerioth]

Captain Marsh wrote:

So first the good news: Ustalav is the gothic, creepy, haunted realm that finally won me over to Golarion.

The writing in the Carrion Crown AP, and in the "Rule of Fear" campaign setting guide is brilliant.

As an adventure setting, it's awesome, jammed with threads and texture.

But I'm also a big fan of coherent "world building" in fantasy, and I'm wondering if Ustalav makes any sense at all.

Ustalav sits "beyond the frontier" lying to the north of the kingdom of "Lastwall."

It lies in a hammer-anvil vice between an orc horde (Belkzen), a world-threatening demonic invasion (the Worldwound) and a barbarian realm empowered by alien science (Numeria).

Throw in the fact that Ustalav is the burial place of Golarion's restless dark lord, and is plagued by remnant populations of werewolves and vampires.

Unlike other nations in Golarion (Lastwall being the best example) Ustalav appears to lack any sort of ability to resist these threats.

It is a decadent, splintered, squabbling society, given over in large part to academic disputes, mystical dreams, and conspiracy theories.

(Spoiler alert) According to AP 44, even the Order of the Palatine Eye are in large measure mystical dilletantes and disorganized dabblers.

According to "Rule of Fear," the former defenses against Belkzen -- primarily the Bleakwall -- are in shambles.

Lepidstadt, which sits on an incredibly dangerous frontier, doesn't even have a complete city wall, or any obvious means of defense.

I get that part of this is nitpicking on my part.

It reflects the difficulty of balancing fantasy world building against the need for multiple adventure hooks...

And really? Could a civilization exist with so many runelords and earthfalls and lich kings shouldering their way to the front of the line?

Probably not.

But as a sop to my own sensibilities, I'm adding a new "Conspiracy" to my house-ruled "Rule of Fear" text:

The Royal Bounders
Royalists who guard Ustalav's frontier

Alignment LN
Headquarters...

You are forgetting that they have counts, and counts have soldiers and mercenaries.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, the Scooby-Doo defense sounds about right. Forget all the scattered hauntings and vampires and whatnot, there are four things that make nobody want to touch Ustalav with a 10 foot pole:

1.) The Shudderwood. It is an ENORMOUS forest (covering something like 1/3 of the country if the maps in Carrion Crown are full Ustalav maps) utterly controlled by the various werewolf tribes, the majority of which are AT LEAST CR 4. The average Orc army would be f@~~ing mulched trying to invade that territory.

2.) The Dippelmere Swamp, a swamp with the sole description of "It's big and teeming with trolls, marsh giants, and GHOULS".

Between those two things any assault into the country has to pass through two areas of difficult terrain (one of which surrounding a major city that would NEED to be taken for the whole country to fall) that are WORTHLESS to invaders, and fight enemy forces more powerful than, yet not even AFFILIATED WITH the actual Ustalavan military. Talk about your natural deterrents.

3.) The Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye and the Whispering Way. Neither organization would take kindly to invaders, so hope you like eating Circles of Death and undead guerrilla tactics plus whatever the Order can cook up. Again, all before you even TOUCH the Ustalavan military.

And last, but certainly not least:

4.) Gallowspire, and the Whispering Tyrant trapped below it. NOBODY (besides the Whispering Way and other necromancers who want to see the world die and rise again) wants Tar-Baphon let loose. Even the Orcs of Belkzen Hold aren't that stupid. This is a creature that fought A GOD to a standstill BEFORE he ascended to lichdom. It took that god's herald, chewed him up, and spit him out, and was only defeated by SHEER LUCK as a by-product of him destroying a freakin' MAJOR ARTIFACT as collateral damage of a spell he cast, and use of ancient ritual magic nobody (presumably) knows how to replicate to seal him.

Nobody wants to chance releasing him by accident.

TL;DR: Ustalav is a piece of shit country nobody in their right mind wants to rule, and they'd have to fight for every bloody inch of it they took from the monsters that rule vast expanses of it just to get to the point where the Ustalavan military could probably sweep up their battered and decimated forces with relative ease. It's simply not worth it.

Invading Ustalav is like sticking your head into a beehive, and then a bear's mouth, then jumping off a cliff for the honor of winning a $15 gift certificate to Dollar Tree. Who would be dumb enough?

[Zhangar]

Deskari can actually do it, but he's a demigod with a practically infinite army of demons.

(Though I was mildly disappointed that the Worldwound expansion map didn't have a giant hole around Gallowspire is.)

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Zhangar wrote:

Deskari can actually do it, but he's a demigod with a practically infinite army of demons.

"Practically" is right. I think the Abyss is infinite perhaps but I find the endless demons plot a bit overused at times. Each demon lord has a finite amount of soldiers and another demon lord will swallow his Abyssal territory if he spends all his resources on the prime. Demons, devils, daemons: each are heavily involved in the souls trade business to replenish their ranks or to use as snacks, so i don't see them throw away soldiers on something with no value (Ustalav)

[Kalindlara]

Zhangar wrote:

Deskari can actually do it, but he's a demigod with a practically infinite army of demons.

(Though I was mildly disappointed that the Worldwound expansion map didn't have a giant hole around Gallowspire is.)

I wish the Ustalav portion of that article had had more stuff about them trying frantically to crack the Seals. The devil you know, etc.

Plus, I'm a much bigger fan of the Tyrant. ^_^

[MMCJawa]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Zhangar wrote:

Deskari can actually do it, but he's a demigod with a practically infinite army of demons.

"Practically" is right. I think the Abyss is infinite perhaps but I find the endless demons plot a bit overused at times. Each demon lord has a finite amount of soldiers and another demon lord will swallow his Abyssal territory if he spends all his resources on the prime. Demons, devils, daemons: each are heavily involved in the souls trade business to replenish their ranks or to use as snacks, so i don't see them throw away soldiers on something with no value (Ustalav)

at least some abyssal realms are larger than planets. A "finite" number of demons to conscript is still probably a far great level of military might than most inner sea nations can muster.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

MMCJawa wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Zhangar wrote:

Deskari can actually do it, but he's a demigod with a practically infinite army of demons.

"Practically" is right. I think the Abyss is infinite perhaps but I find the endless demons plot a bit overused at times. Each demon lord has a finite amount of soldiers and another demon lord will swallow his Abyssal territory if he spends all his resources on the prime. Demons, devils, daemons: each are heavily involved in the souls trade business to replenish their ranks or to use as snacks, so i don't see them throw away soldiers on something with no value (Ustalav)

at least some abyssal realms are larger than planets. A "finite" number of demons to conscript is still probably a far great level of military might than most inner sea nations can muster.

where's the whole worldwound situation detailed? I mean I've read a novel about it, ran some PFS scenarios about it, etc. I don't think i played the AP related to it so I'm guessing it's all there? I mean I've always wondered why we don't see a host of angels descend on these bastards... i want to know what makes this an exception to that "no fiends on the prime" rule...

[MMCJawa]

I can't remember if it was exactly stated why, but I think it be because mortals opened the Worldwound, and so mortals have to deal with it?

[Herald]

Wrath of the Rightous deals with the Worldwound. It is pretty much a morals have to deal with it issue, but basically that's always going to be the case in a adventure game. After all you want the players to be the heroes.