You can't trip something that's already prone. You're welcome to try I suppose, but you will always fail (they are already prone).
So what did I miss?
[Edited - free attack on knocked down foe didn't involve any action on the part of said foe, misread feat]
As for tripping someone while they're prone and not moving, now you're just trolling - I mean, fantasy and all that but my grandfather had a rule "If it falls on the floor, leave it there, it can't fall any further."
You can't trip something that's already prone. You're welcome to try I suppose, but you will always fail (they are already prone).I agree, that makes sense. Now join me on this thought experiment and point to where in trip it says you can't trip a prone target?
I don't believe it's specifically stated in the books. However, it has been clarified by v3.5 and Pathfinder developers both that you can't.
As I said, you are free to make a trip combat maneuver against a prone target (nothing prevents the action), but it won't do anything.
I suppose the rest is common sense. It's like trying to kill a dead guy. You can't make a dead guy MORE dead. Just doesn't accomplish much of anything. In similar fashion, you can't make a prone person MORE prone. As a status effect, it is either active or not, there aren't degrees of being prone.
I agree, that makes sense. Now join me on this thought experiment and point to where in trip it says you can't trip a prone target?
Just because the rules don't preclude something doesn't mean it's possible. For example, nowhere in the rules does it say that a creature has to sleep or rest, just that some classes require rest in order to regain powers. This means that, by the logic you are applying to the tripping rules, a character who had no daily powers would never have to sleep, by Rules As Written (RAW).
So, by RAW, there is no rule saying you cannot trip someone who is prone. However, prone is a binary state; characters are either prone or not, and you cannot make a character more prone than they previously are.
So, one cannot trip someone who is prone.
1. A successful trip gives the opponent the prone condition.
2. You cannot make someone "more prone" by tripping them again.
3. As such further trip attempts automatically fail since the condition is already imposed.
4. Further trip attacks can be attempted but since the creature is prone even on a successful roll the attempt fails as prone creatures cannot be made "more prone".
Also:
When someone gets up from being prone and provokes an AoO you can attempt a trip attack but it doesn't prevent them from standing since the AoO happens before the action that triggers it.
If you want better than that get out your search fu -- JJ has been all over this already.
Also the rules state that some creatures can't be tripped. It gives a small sample list but doesn't say the list is all inclusive or excludes other possibilities, leaving such judgments up to the GM.
Here we go:
[url="http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9n8a"]
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.
Now Here's where your problems start:
You are attacking -- good -- you trip as part of that attack, ok.
Now as part of the AoO you trip again -- problem.
You've already successfully tripped -- which means that if you trip before you trip then you don't get the AoO since the action you are taking is a trip which is what gave you your AoO in the first place.
It causes a preclusion loop. You can't take an action that prevents you from taking the action that allows you to take the action that provides you with the action.
Here we go:
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.Now Here's where your problems start:
You are attacking -- good -- you trip as part of that attack, ok.
Now as part of the AoO you trip again -- problem.
You've already successfully tripped -- which means that if you trip before you trip then you don't get the AoO since the action you are taking is a trip which is what gave you your AoO in the first place.
It causes a preclusion loop. You can't take an action that prevents you from taking the action that allows you to take the action that provides you with the action.
Thanks for the search fu link.
We've clarified he can't make the target prone twice, but that doesn't necessarily stop him from using Upending Strike against a prone target (though I'm sure any GM in his right mind would rule this out).
I don't really care about the imagery.
If they are tripped future trips have no effect since they are already prone. Which means the future trip attacks fail -- since they fail they don't give you an AoO from greater trip since that requires success.
I don't really care about the imagery.
If they are tripped future trips have no effect since they are already prone. Which means the future trip attacks fail -- since they fail they don't give you an AoO from greater trip since that requires success.
Ah yes. What was I thinking?
Can you find anything that states you can trip a prone opponent?
You can't trip something that is already on the ground. Like snakes, or oozes, or people that are already prone.
There was a whole thread about this where I made your exact case puregamer. It could work by RAW but a designer told me it wasn't intended.
| yeah that thread
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V
during the last time someone did a variation of this silly trip cheese arguement one of the developers I forget who said you I'n general cannot trip a prone person. I say I'n general because also said they could see a monk with ki throw tossing someone to different squares.
which is admittedly kind of fun kung Fu imagery.
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I EVOKE RULES!!!!
"Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn."
DM:(after one upending strike) Sorry you don't get anymore free actions from Upending strike....
Player: ....O
Anyway, It's fun to joke around about this stuff but if a player started doing this I'd immediately ask to talk to them... lol guess it's not so funny when you actually try it.
Can you find anything that states you can trip a prone opponent?
You can't trip something that is already on the ground. Like snakes, or oozes, or people that are already prone.
Wrong, being on the ground isn't why you can't trip them. Not having legs was the stated reason you couldn't trip them. Also you are only creating another issue to deal with by making that line of argument. IE now we get a +4 bonus to hit against oozes and snakes automatically.
Trip states what you can't trip. Prone targets aren't listed.
I didn't state that the snake or ooze were prone -- only that they were on the ground. You can't trip them because they don't go any lower -- just like the prone person.
It's like I am suddenly a bad person because I want people in the rules forum to cite rules when they are discussing rules.
There's a simple defense -- the target merely detaches his legs and then reattaches them after the trip attempt. The rules clearly state that a legless creature can't be tripped, and there's nowhere in the rules that forbids detaching one's own legs. Voila!
;-)
well with your example a ranger monk ( do people even make those) could get about 15 attacks on a target if this worked. this would be where it becomes cheesy. generally speaking if your bending rules to the point where they just quite don't break I tend to not view it as seeking to actually understand the rule.
It's like I am suddenly a bad person because I want people in the rules forum to cite rules when they are discussing rules.
There's a simple defense -- the target merely detaches his legs and then reattaches them after the trip attempt. The rules clearly state that a legless creature can't be tripped, and there's nowhere in the rules that forbids detaching one's own legs. Voila!
;-)
+1.
Awesome response, equally absurd and also not addressed in the rules :)
It's like I am suddenly a bad person because I want people in the rules forum to cite rules when they are discussing rules.
There's a simple defense -- the target merely detaches his legs and then reattaches them after the trip attempt. The rules clearly state that a legless creature can't be tripped, and there's nowhere in the rules that forbids detaching one's own legs. Voila!
;-)
+1.
Awesome response, equally absurd and also not addressed in the rules :)
Well, I wouldn't go that far. In fact, I agree with thepuregamer when he says that it's possible (if not plausible) to imagine his interpretation (e.g. "juggling" an enemy in a video game) and it's not even that overpowered (considering that a skirmisher ranger only gets a few tricks per day).
But any argument predicated on "nothing (besides common sense) says that I can't!" is pretty weak and falls squarely into "ask your GM" territory.
Well, I wouldn't go that far. In fact, I agree with thepuregamer when he says that it's possible (if not plausible) to imagine his interpretation (e.g. "juggling" an enemy in a video game) and it's not even that overpowered (considering that a skirmisher ranger only gets a few tricks per day).But any argument predicated on "nothing (besides common sense) says that I can't!" is pretty weak and falls squarely into "ask your GM" territory.
Hey, it made me chuckle after reading the rest of the thread started to make my head hurt.
I appreciated the absurdity of your proposed solution, given the absurdity of the initial argument which basically boils down to... "I want to trip the prone guy!" At which point everyone around the table should look at the player and give him their best incredulous stares.
I don't see any plausibility. Video games are not a good source of plausibility.
I still don't understand how someone who is standing up from prone can be tripped and then has free movement to just keep standing up from prone with the same move action.
I still don't understand how someone who is standing up from prone can be tripped and then has free movement to just keep standing up from prone with the same move action.
D&D has conditions. Either you have the condition or you don't. There is no in between. When you are attempting to stand up you are trying to get rid of the prone condition. If you are tripped due to an AoO all it does is give you a condition that you already had so it has no affect on you.
I still don't understand how someone who is standing up from prone can be tripped and then has free movement to just keep standing up from prone with the same move action.
The same way someone who is casting a spell or disarming someone can still cast or disarm after taking their licks, just like the prone guy.
Also, waiting for a prone guy to stand up and knocking him back down would be a readied action.
EDIT: Oh yeah, the actual topic. You can't trip a prone person, for a reason oddly spelled out earlier. Their feet are not on the ground. So what would you be tripping their face, stomach? Wouldn't that be like tripping a snake or an OOZE?
Tripping an already prone person has already had input from James Jacobs
You can't trip someone who is prone. Just like you can't put a sleeping person to sleep, kill someone who's dead, or so on. This is a case where, I would hope, common sense would remove the need to write things down.
Though later on he agrees you can ki throw a already prone person.
Would you say you can Ki Throw someone who was already prone then with a successful trip?
I would, yes, because the image of someone picking up someone else and throwing them in the context of a kung-fu fight is cool and logical and (in the context of said fantasy kung-fu fight) believable.
Well it could be a readied action or it could be an AoO since both can happen when someone tries to stand up.
It has already been explained that the window to get off the AoO is while the person is still prone; to knock them back down after they stand up, you have to use some other type of action (and they're not at -4 AC for being prone anymore either).
While I agree that you can't successfully make a Trip maneuver on an opponent who is not being supported by legs (whether flying, already prone or legless), I don't think this combo is particularly broken since it relies on a very limited resource, namely daily uses of the ranger's tricks.
@wraithstrike - When standing up from prone do you take a -4 penalty to AC for still having the prone condition?
@wraithstrike - When standing up from prone do you take a -4 penalty to AC for still having the prone condition?
Yes, and that penalty also applies to the prone character's CMD so it is a good way to disarm them. Picking a weapon up even if both the character and the weapon are on the ground is still an AoO.
Well it could be a readied action or it could be an AoO since both can happen when someone tries to stand up.It has already been explained that the window to get off the AoO is while the person is still prone; to knock them back down after they stand up, you have to use some other type of action (and they're not at -4 AC for being prone anymore either).
And I have already explained that if we were discussing issues of realism, being hit(consider this the AoO used as the trip attempt) as you are about to stand up would have a major impact on your ability to stand up.
In pathfinder, realism often takes a secondary role. In pathfinder, an AoO comes before they actually stand up. They are still considered prone. If you trip them with the AoO, there is no effect because it resolves before the move action to stand up.
What I take issue with is that people sometimes want to use realism and sometimes they don't. It can be pretty inconsistent.
I think balance in some cases is better than realism, but in what cases varies from person to person.
I don't like how people can just fall 1000 ft and then get up and walk away, even though I am glad falling damage has a cap on it.
Here's a bit of a different scenario. Say someone stands up from prone, and they provoke an attack of opportunity. if you bullrush that person do they lose their move action or do they simply move from the spot they are bullrushed to?
Here's a bit of a different scenario. Say someone stands up from prone, and they provoke an attack of opportunity. if you bullrush that person do they lose their move action or do they simply move from the spot they are bullrushed to?
I always saw a bullrush as something like what happens in football when the defensive lineman drives the offensive lineman back, but the rules only say you get to push them back.
Going strictly by RAW you can bullrush a prone person, however you can't bullrush as part of AoO because it is not rules legal. You could ready a bullrush though.
To answer the question they can still stand up according to the rules since the ready action(bull rush)does not take their action away.
Yeah thepuregamer had the scenario right with the shield bash feat. Thanks for the insight guys.
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Here's a post from James Jacobs specifically about whether a prone target can be tripped...
Edit: If you disagree with his post, why not flag it for FAQ?
Here's a post from James Jacobs specifically about whether a prone target can be tripped...
Edit: If you disagree with his post, why not flag it for FAQ?
I don't think they are disagreeing with the actual ruling, just the realism aspect, kind of like how some people don't like paralyzed creatures getting reflex saves.
I don't think it's a faq worthy issue in the end, maybe having an errata on the prone condition which states that they are immune to trip attempts.
Well it could be a readied action or it could be an AoO since both can happen when someone tries to stand up. If we were going for realism, being hit as you about to stand up would have an impact on your ability to stand up. Apparently realism does not matter in that scenario. Strange how it matters sometimes and not others.I still don't understand how someone who is standing up from prone can be tripped and then has free movement to just keep standing up from prone with the same move action.Also, waiting for a prone guy to stand up and knocking him back down would be a readied action.
Man all this bouncing between rules and realism and meshing them is getin' wonky.
To clarify, to wait for someone to stand up and then knock them back down would HAVE TO BE a readied action. The AoO would not knock them back down as they are prone until after the attack at which point they are standing.
I don't even know if there was actual confusion there, or if I'm just confused about the confusion now.