Pathfinder Star Wars

[darth_borehd]

Who would be interested in a Star Wars RPG based on the Pathfinder rules?

How do you think it would be better than d20 Saga?

d20 RCR?

d6 WEG?

[Fnipernackle]

darth_borehd wrote:

Who would be interested in a Star Wars RPG based on the Pathfinder rules?

How do you think it would be better than d20 Saga?

d20 RCR?

d6 WEG?

i would love to see this done. we were thinking of doing this using a few of the core book classes (like fighter and rogue) then using the dreamscarred presses version of psionics for other classes.

soul knife - jedi guardian
psy. warrior - jedi councilor
psion and wilder - two different types of force adepts

we were also gonna adapt the soulknife so that he would get certain powers from the powers section that he could use so many times per day, picking them up kind of like how a magus gets his magus arcanas

[Kolokotroni]

I think I would have to see it done before I could say how star wars pathfinder would be 'better' then it's counterparts like saga edition. There is certainly potential to improve, but it depends entirely on implementation.

[darth_borehd]

I guess the question to ask then is what needs to be improved from D6, RCR, or Saga and go from there.

[Kochean]

I'm more in favor of the original D6 System of Star Wars than I am in any other system that used the DnD style rules, saga or otherwise.

The Cortex System would be a good alternative system to convert Star Wars into. Its very similar in the rules to the D6 System that converting all the races and stats shouldn't take to much effort.

[darth_borehd]

Kochean wrote:

I'm more in favor of the original D6 System of Star Wars than I am in any other system that used the DnD style rules, saga or otherwise.

The Cortex System would be a good alternative system to convert Star Wars into. Its very similar in the rules to the D6 System that converting all the races and stats shouldn't take to much effort.

Cortex?

[Kochean]

Cortex system, developed by Margret Weis originally for the Serenity RPG, and later expanded to a Generic RPG system.

Go here for Cortex system.

[dain120475]

These ideas all look pretty good.... but I think the real question on MY mind, and probably everyone else's is... will they be making a RPG playable that is compatible with Star Wars: The Old Republic?

I am already trying to come up with ways to do that right now, at least play by post (West End games... the "d6" version, has the most material, including source books based on details that took place during The Old Republic... visa via based on Exar Kun and Nomi Sunrider, among others...).

But the "crunchy stuff"... blueprints on ships, details on blasters, variations on lightsabers... I'd like to see it in a fun, free-flowing system I can enjoy for a Star Wars game, as well as Play-by-Post.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

[Foghammer]

I am a huge fan of the force skills from the d20 RCR. I think that was pure genius.

As far as converting it to Pathfinder, I'm not sure you'd have to do a lot. If you have been playing Pathfinder a while and are familiar with most of the changes from 3.5, then all you have to do is modify the character sheets to reflect the Pathfinder skill lists and add in force skills, make sure to keep in mind the way certain feats work now, and how advancement works.

I've just been going over the RCR as of last night because I've been playing The Force Unleashed. I don't think much is required at all. I'd love to start up an Old Republic game with lots of awesome lightsaber action.

I don't like that you have to take feats to have access to force skills, and that there are three groups. Three groups, I understand, but not having to take feats to use any of them. You also have to divide your skill points up into them after you do that, so your "mundane" skills suffer for it. At least as far as I can tell. If I missed something in that, let me know, please.

[dain120475]

Foghammer wrote:

I am a huge fan of the force skills from the d20 RCR. I think that was pure genius.

As far as converting it to Pathfinder, I'm not sure you'd have to do a lot. If you have been playing Pathfinder a while and are familiar with most of the changes from 3.5, then all you have to do is modify the character sheets to reflect the Pathfinder skill lists and add in force skills, make sure to keep in mind the way certain feats work now, and how advancement works.

I've just been going over the RCR as of last night because I've been playing The Force Unleashed. I don't think much is required at all. I'd love to start up an Old Republic game with lots of awesome lightsaber action.

I don't like that you have to take feats to have access to force skills, and that there are three groups. Three groups, I understand, but not having to take feats to use any of them. You also have to divide your skill points up into them after you do that, so your "mundane" skills suffer for it. At least as far as I can tell. If I missed something in that, let me know, please.

I also like the advancement that "leveling up" provides, but the problem I found in the Force games were that Jedi were always broken. The fact that you can sacrifice Vitality to HEAL Vitality means that two Jedi can pretty much go back and forth with healing each other no worries. Makes it kind of a pain...

Tweaking some stuff like that via house rules would be nice, but I think it would be fun to play the universe, though.

[Can'tFindthePath]

darth_borehd wrote:

Who would be interested in a Star Wars RPG based on the Pathfinder rules?

How do you think it would be better than d20 Saga?

d20 RCR?

d6 WEG?

I would.

My group has been playing the various d20 SW rules for the last 10 years, but we've put the most mileage by far into the Saga rules for the last 4. It is well written, smooth, and simple (for d20). However, the classes don't have awesome tricksy POWER like other d20 games. Many would contend that a PF classes would seem unrealistic and overpowered for a SW game. I would disagree; I think it is all in how you interpret and visualize the abilities.

For my part, I have been tinkering with the idea of adapting PF classes into SW; rogue for scoundrel, fighter for soldier, an adaptation of monk for jedi, etc. I think it would work well, and the only reason I haven't gone further with it is that I am wrestling with implementing DEEP house revisions to PF, and I keep bouncing between the two 'projects'.

[Steel_Wind]

I prefer SAGA over both d6 and d20 SW and I would prefer SAGA over any incarnation or further gloss on Pathfinder, too. Frankly, if they had kept some more of SAGA's rules in 4E, 4E would have been a better system for it. Ah well; spilt milk and all that.

As for the future, I think it is certain that FFG will give TOR a chance to get going with gamers while they design an RPG meant to mirror much of TOR's flavor at the table. It's an RPG that I look forward to playing sometime in 2012/13.

Don't get me wrong -- I love Pathfinder, but there are some things it doesn't do very well. While I am very much in favor of people tinkering with the Pathfinder Rules to have fun, I would hate for people to skip over SAGA out of some knee-jerk reaction to 4E. I'm not saying that your post implied this in any way -- but if you have any misgivings, SAGA really is a great system and worth looking in to. I urge you (and everyone else) to give it a try.

[xorial]

Kochean wrote:

I'm more in favor of the original D6 System of Star Wars than I am in any other system that used the DnD style rules, saga or otherwise.

The Cortex System would be a good alternative system to convert Star Wars into. Its very similar in the rules to the D6 System that converting all the races and stats shouldn't take to much effort.

I've been thinking the same thing ever since I bought the Cortex Rules.

[Tom_Kalbfus]

What if you had Pathfinder with Star Wars Tech only in a Galaxy spanning setting, with no Force, only the Pathfinder rules of Magic and the Pathfinder character classes?

New skills could be adapted for the various character classes to deal with the high tech stuff. There is no reason why a fighter couldn't fly a starship if given access to the right feats and skills to do so.

If one wants a fighter jock, simply give a fighter access to the appropriate skills and feats to operate and pilot an X-Wing fighter for example. The D20 Star Wars RPG has plenty of tech, one simply has to reassign which Pathfinder classes get what skills and feats. I think the flavor of the setting would be decidedly more magical than Star Wars, with no dependencies on Magic either as in DragonStar, hyperdrives work just fine with no wizards around.

[vidmaster]

you know it won't happen though not to be negative but wizards has the property's for that.

[Slaunyeh]

vidmaster wrote:

you know it won't happen though not to be negative but wizards has the property's for that.

Last I heard, WotC lost the license. Or released it, rather. Furthermore, rumours has it that Mongoose Publishing tried to acquire it, but were beat to the punch by another, mysterious company.

Could be Paizo. Could be FFG. Could be someone else entirely! I don't think anything has been revealed yet.

[Steel_Wind]

Slaunyeh wrote:

vidmaster wrote:

you know it won't happen though not to be negative but wizards has the property's for that.

Last I heard, WotC lost the license. Or released it, rather. Furthermore, rumours has it that Mongoose Publishing tried to acquire it, but were beat to the punch by another, mysterious company.

Could be Paizo. Could be FFG. Could be someone else entirely! I don't think anything has been revealed yet.

WotC's license ran out and WotC elected not to renew it for the price that was being asked by LucasArts.

It was announced a month or so ago that FFG (Fantasy Flight Games) has acquired the Star Wars License. So we are not talking about "maybes" here. FFG was doing demos of their new X-Wing space combat game at Gencon and they have announced a forthcoming card game (non-collectible) for Star Wars as well.

No announcement for an RPG yet, but I'm sure we'll get there.

[Slaunyeh]

Steel_Wind wrote:

It was announced a month or so ago that FFG (Fantasy Flight Games) has acquired the Star Wars License. So we are not talking about "maybes" here. FFG was doing demos of their new X-Wing space combat game at Gencon and they have announced a forthcoming card game (non-collectible) for Star Wars as well.

No announcement for an RPG yet, but I'm sure we'll get there.

Oh, cool. I missed that announcement.

If I remember right, the license includes the rights for card-games, miniatures as well as RPGs. Though, that doesn't they plan on publishing one, of course.

[Ksorkrax]

The Force is quite a problem for such a setting - non-force chars will suck at high levs - better pilot but no presentiment, good fighter but no defense against force grip... in the old episodes, other chars were only useful because Luke was still a rookie, in the new episodes, non-jedi just suck.

My idea: go back to the roots of Star Wars, take a look on the old Drafts:
The Adventures of the Starkiller
Rough Draft
First Draft
The Star Wars
(and more)

Make it a Space Samurai Western, make the Jedi (Ashla-Bendu) and Sith (Bogan) basically elite warriors/imperial knights and reduce the power of the force to some nice tricks (for example force jump, metabolism control like the breath-holding in ep I) instead of a must-have for fighters (like force speed in KotoR I/II) - in Darths & Droids for example it seems as if anyone could use lightsabers to parry incoming shots, don't have to be cheddar monk for that

[Slaunyeh]

Ksorkrax wrote:

The Force is quite a problem for such a setting - non-force chars will suck at high levs - better pilot but no presentiment, good fighter but no defense against force grip... in the old episodes, other chars were only useful because Luke was still a rookie, in the new episodes, non-jedi just suck.

Last I checked, it was non-jedi who killed off the entire jedi order. :p

Anyway, I don't really think the Force is a setting problem unless you want it to be a problem.

[Tom_Kalbfus]

Slaunyeh wrote:

vidmaster wrote:

you know it won't happen though not to be negative but wizards has the property's for that.

Last I heard, WotC lost the license. Or released it, rather. Furthermore, rumours has it that Mongoose Publishing tried to acquire it, but were beat to the punch by another, mysterious company.

Could be Paizo. Could be FFG. Could be someone else entirely! I don't think anything has been revealed yet.

If you substitute magic for the Force, it is not really Star Wars anymore.

[xorial]

Tom_Kalbfus wrote:

If you substitute magic for the Force, it is not really Star Wars anymore.

True, it's Dragonstar.

[Rubio]

darth_borehd wrote:

Who would be interested in a Star Wars RPG based on the Pathfinder rules?

How do you think it would be better than d20 Saga?

d20 RCR?

d6 WEG?

I would totally be interested in this, and I think it would be best done off a fusion of the RCR and some parts of Saga.

Basically, while RCR had its charm, it suffered from (IMO) problems with character customizability, the VP to fuel force thing, wonky mechanics for lightsaber deflection, and lightsabers in general, nearly-useless armor, and buckets of dice for ranged combat.

RCR definitely had a very rich skill system that could model a whole lot of different levels of expertise.

[inkpenavenger]

I've gone over the math for SAGA over and over, and frankly, the whole system is just broken. With defenses going up with level, they outstrip skill attacks and non Jedi/Soldier BAB in the long run. For example, if you're a human and you train in Use the Force and take the Skill Focus feat for it, you'll start with a +10 base check at 1st level against base defenses of 11. So you have a 95% chance to hit. At 20th level, your same skill has only adanced to +20, while defenses are at a 30 minimum. So only 55% chance to hit. IMO, having your powers become LESS effective as you level up is not the way to go.

As for adapting Pathfinder for Star Wars, I actually think the gunslinger's grit system would be a good model to follow for the Force. Some Force powers can be used at-will as long as you have at least 1 Force point while others cost FP to use.

I hated the Force skill system in RCR, by the way. Not only did it split your skill budget (wich was really stingy for Jedi to begin with), but you had to dump your hp to use powers, and it added too many extra rolls. For most Force skills, you rolled a check to set a DC for your target to save agaisnt. With the RotS errata, powers like Force Lightning got even more complicated. You rolled a check to set potential damage, then rolled a ranged attack, then if hit the target made a save agaisnt the effects of the electriciy. Just too much.

[Gendo]

darth_borehd wrote:

Who would be interested in a Star Wars RPG based on the Pathfinder rules?

How do you think it would be better than d20 Saga?

d20 RCR?

d6 WEG?

I've played every d20 incarnation of Star Wars. I played WEG d6 Star Wars heavily. The class-level based format of d20 has never been agood fit for Star Wars for me. d6 Star Wars is the best version. Fluid, no crunchy rules crap.

As for using PF? Better than Saga? That's a challenge to say the least. Of all the d20 variants, that one was the best of the bunch. All the classes had something going for them. Force powers were handled pretty decently. The Condition track was one of the most brilliant bits I've seen in a while for d20 games.

My advice...eliminate the class-skill/cross class skill set-up. decide whether or not you want Jedi to be arcane, divine, or psionic based, then create spell/power lists that are appropriately Jedi-esque. Stick to Light Side is passive Dark Side is aggressive - things like Magic Missile, Fireball, offensive, harmful magic is BAD. Same magic COULD be used by lightsiders, provided they were done with the Merciful Spell feat. Scoundrels would be Thieves, Nobles are Bards.

[Gendo]

inkpenavenger wrote:

I've gone over the math for SAGA over and over, and frankly, the whole system is just broken. With defenses going up with level, they outstrip skill attacks and non Jedi/Soldier BAB in the long run. For example, if you're a human and you train in Use the Force and take the Skill Focus feat for it, you'll start with a +10 base check at 1st level against base defenses of 11. So you have a 95% chance to hit. At 20th level, your same skill has only adanced to +20, while defenses are at a 30 minimum. So only 55% chance to hit. IMO, having your powers become LESS effective as you level up is not the way to go.

As for adapting Pathfinder for Star Wars, I actually think the gunslinger's grit system would be a good model to follow for the Force. Some Force powers can be used at-will as long as you have at least 1 Force point while others cost FP to use.

I hated the Force skill system in RCR, by the way. Not only did it split your skill budget (wich was really stingy for Jedi to begin with), but you had to dump your hp to use powers, and it added too many extra rolls. For most Force skills, you rolled a check to set a DC for your target to save agaisnt. With the RotS errata, powers like Force Lightning got even more complicated. You rolled a check to set potential damage, then rolled a ranged attack, then if hit the target made a save agaisnt the effects of the electriciy. Just too much.

You forgot to take into account attribute modifiers with those roles and that the defense increases ONLY applied to Heroic classes(class levels in classes meant for PCs only for those wondering) I tried to counteract what you pointed out with the math by adding a Skill Mastery feat. Big mistake. What I noticed, was that, when facing a villain (or multiple villains) that had as many heroic levels as the PCs, it was a crap shoot. When the same batch of villains were made using Non-Heroic class levels, the PCs mopped the floor with them. There were balances. Imperfect ones to be sure. Whatever happens do not, DO NOT port in/use the Destiny Mechanic. My gys would save'em for the BBEG at the end, and unload in a single round on the main villain. Anticlimactic battle.

[LazarX]

darth_borehd wrote:

Who would be interested in a Star Wars RPG based on the Pathfinder rules?

How do you think it would be better than d20 Saga?

d20 RCR?

d6 WEG?

Only if you think that straight edge screwdrivers are suited for driving Phillips head screws. Having played the RCR rules, I would definitely NOT choose Pathfinder over them. Pathfinder is simply built for an entirely different style of setting. I don't have experience with SAGA, so I can't judge that. but I would take either of the only over Pathfinder for the sole reason that they were designed specifically for this setting. If you really insist on using Pathfinder give yourself something of a break and get ahold of the Modern Path rules.

[tanuki_dude]

Just a small sample of what I have been running for almost 2 years now.
Their are force talents and combat trainings instead of skills. All the very basic stuff a jedi should be able to do is handled in the Control Sense and Alter force trainings

Force User Level
A character's force user level is equal to the force user class levels + half any other class level + any other modifiers

Force Energy
A Force Sensitive character gains a pool of Force Energy with their Force Abilities are powered by. Each Force Using class gains a number of points per level (10 for Consular, 8 for Sentinel, and 6 for Guardian), none Force using classes gain 2 points per level if the character is Force Sensitive. Each level the Force user also gains bonus Force Energy equal to his or her wisdom modifier.

Force Sensitive
A force sensitive character can do the following abilities
Danger Sense: Gain an initiative bonus +1 plus 1 per four force user level up to +5 to initiative check at a cost of 3 force energy.
Minor Telekinesis: Lift an object up to 5 kg. Force user level check Dc 10 +2 per kilogram. Cost is 1 force energy per round.
Empathy: Gain a +1 plus 1 per four force user levels up to +5 on a single Bluff, Diplomacy, Gamble, Intimidate, or Sense motive skill check, for a cost of 1 force energy.

Alter
Basic Telekinesis: You can move objects 10 kilograms per point of force energy spent. 10 kilograms requires no roll. There is an alter skill check of 10 +1 per 10 kilograms for more than 10. So 20 Kg would be a Dc 11 and 100 kg would be a Dc 19. You may lift a creature but they can make a will save of 10 + force user level + Intelligence modifier. The cost is 1 point of force energy per 10 kg per round. You may move objects 10 meter a round and affect object within line of sight. (If you have the sense force training you may move object within 4 meter per sense ranks that are not in line of sight for 2 additional Force energy

Control
Control Force training adds the control force skill to the force using character's skill list. A character with control can do the following.
Jedi Healing Trance: A character in a Jedi healing trance can heal as if they were exposed to bacta. The healing rate is 1 wound and 2x character level in vitality per hour. A Jedi healing trance uses 6 points of force energy per hour maintained. If the force user has alter they can put another will character in a healing trance for 1 additional force energy per hour. All force energy must be spent at the beginning of the trance. Note, the Dark side makes healing difficult Add +1 the the force energy cost for every Dark side point the character has over half the wisdom score.
Jedi Hibernation Trance: Similar to the healing trance. The hibernation trance dose not accelerate the force user's healing. Instead it slows their metabolic rate to a point of near death. In this state the force user dose not need food or water and requires only a small amount of necessary gas for their respiration. This means they can survive in near but not total vacuum. The Jedi key's an amount of time or event that will wake them up. There is a risk in that they my died if the do not receive that keyed event. A Jedi can maintain a hibernation trance for 10 + their Force user level times their constitution modifier in days. If the Jedi also has alter they can place a will creature into a hibernation trance. The trance only requires 2 points of force energy to place on another and none to place on themselves. A dying character is considered stabilized for the duration of their trance.
Resist Discomfort: A force user can roll their control skill instead of a fortitude save to resist discomfort and environmentally distractions such as penalties form being fatigued or sickened at a cost of 2 force energy for ten minutes. They can act through incapacitating pain or and statuses such as exhausted and nauseated at a cost of 10 force energy for ten minutes
Calming Meditation: A force user can meditate on their inner self and regain composer form a failed will save that would affect their emotional state such as fear or rage. They roll their control skill instead of their will save (only if the initial save failed). This cost 3 force energy.
Jedi Athletics: For 2 points of Force energy a Jedi can make a standing leap as if they had the run feat and moved 6 meters before the jump. They may roll their control skill for 2 additional points to add half its result to their jump check. Also as a swift action for 3 Force energy they may move an additional 2 meter in a round per 3 ranks in control for 1 round.

Sense
See Force: You can tell the Force user level of a creature within 100 meters x your force user level. This is an opposed roll of your sense vs their Force stealth if available or a Dc of 20 – their force user level. This cost 1 force energy per use.
See Illusions: You can roll your sense skill to see through illusions created by the Force. Roll your sense skill instead of your will save. Costs 3 force energy.
Life Sense: Sense the presence of all living creatures within 10 meter per Force user level around yourself that are not concealed form the Force some way. Dose not detect if something has any Force using ability. Cost 3 force points per minute. Swift action to activate free to maintain.

[Slimmy]

With my gaming group, we have been working for month on what we call "starfinder". Our DM is an old player who disliked star wars d20, because "Star wars d20 has every flaws of d&d 3.5, too much classes, most of them weak and almost useless, and too much supplement where nothing is playtested"
I'm exagereting but the point is, we thought than the 3.5-like system didn't work well. So we have an all new system. We reduced the number of classes, (now only 5), we changed radically the force system...Well, it's still in playtest, but for now, it's the best game we ever had. Most of us are really into this, and we can spend a whole game only roleplaying. And the only concept of prestige classes we have for now is...Well, the sith alchemist.

[Keydan]

I'd even pay a few $ to kickstart this.
And 'bout force... all jedi or no jedi rules come to mind.
Jedi-ish people must be a prestige class.

[Detect Magic]

Why would jedi classes be prestige when children are raised to be jedi? It wouldn't make sense for a child jedi to take levels as a "soldier" or as a "scoundrel" before finally unlocking a jedi prestige class. I mean, I'm all in favor of jedi prestige classes, but I also think that a jedi base class is necessary. Star Wars Saga Edition did it right, in my opinion.

[Keydan]

Detect Magic wrote:

Why would jedi classes be prestige when children are raised to be jedi? It wouldn't make sense for a child jedi to take levels as a "soldier" or as a "scoundrel" before finally unlocking a jedi prestige class. I mean, I'm all in favor of jedi prestige classes, but I also think that a jedi base class is necessary. Star Wars Saga Edition did it right, in my opinion.

I meant that jedi-jedi are definitely very overpowered. Making them a valid prestige class for a force adept, a padawan or a natural force-sensitive race would be better, balance-wise.

[Slimmy]

Well, "force sensibility" is a feat. Everyone can take it, except droid of course, but there's a difference between "a force user" and a "good force user". If you belong to a class which isn't meant to use the force, then you will have to sacrifice skill points, and you can't learn a power by leveling up, you need someone with this power to teach you.
We have two force users classes :
The force fighter is...Well, take the combat style of the ranger, change it with lightsaber, or sith sword, or barehanded fight, and give him the order of the cavalier to represent his belonging to a group of force-users.
The force adept is more like a magician or a priest. He doesn't use lightsaber but he has more force power, and some "study" every two level (think about the witch's hexes) which send his force capacity in the stratosphere.
We had a HARD time trying to equilibrate the force users and the others. But, after a good look, we just tried to limit the destructive capacity of force power by making them imitate pathfinder's spell. So, for my poor force adept with one force fighter level, the beginning of the game was...Let's just say hard.

[Can'tFindthePath]

Keydan wrote:

Detect Magic wrote:

Why would jedi classes be prestige when children are raised to be jedi? It wouldn't make sense for a child jedi to take levels as a "soldier" or as a "scoundrel" before finally unlocking a jedi prestige class. I mean, I'm all in favor of jedi prestige classes, but I also think that a jedi base class is necessary. Star Wars Saga Edition did it right, in my opinion.

I meant that jedi-jedi are definitely very overpowered. Making them a valid prestige class for a force adept, a padawan or a natural force-sensitive race would be better, balance-wise.

I like the look of this. Anyone who qualifies can become a "Jedi", but the fastest, smoothest path would be Padawan.