I don't understand what you are asking: Weapon finesse doesn't scale, and strength on off hand is completely different than getting dex on damage with a weapon.
I don't understand what you are asking: Weapon finesse doesn't scale, and strength on off hand is completely different than getting dex on damage with a weapon.Weapon finesse allows you to use Dex modifier instead of Strength on attack rolls. Off-hand weapons get 50% of the strength modifier, so that should apply to the dex modifier as well.
With gun training, the dex modifier applies equally to both primary and off-hand weapons. In my opinion, it should only be 50% for the off-hand weapon.
Wow lost you really are lost.
Weapon finesse allows you to apply your dex to your bonus to hit... not to damage.
The 50% strength is only for damage rolls -- not your bonus to hit.
So you don't lose 50% of your strength or dex when attacking with an off hand weapon -- only on damage with an off hand weapon.
Considering how crappy guns are (and they are really crappy) allowing full Dex on an off hand attack from a specialized class, with a bad weapon, isn't a big deal -- especially when that weapon is at best one handed.
No problem you seem tired, and I've been that way before myself.
I'm ambivalent towards the issue -- no one does good damage with the gun in the first place so nerfing their damage more seems unneeded.
Yeah it's a touch attack -- within the first range increment -- all of 20 feet with a pistol, but that's not so bad either.
Bows allow you your strength bonus, and many thrown weapons do the same -- at the end of the day the only way the gun really works for the gunslinger is if he gets all of his dex bonus on damage.
As such I'm willing to not fight this.
I have a min/maxer that is mowing things down with 30+ dmg a round without much chance of missing at level 5. I'm just looking to tweak some things for balance. If he gets out of hand I'd just house rule it anyway.
Meh to be fair at level 5 any martial character should be doing that.
However some things to consider:
1. Are you charging him for his ammunition? That stuff's expensive.
2. Are you watching for his misfires? Those kill attack routines.
3. Are you sure of his math? Not to say he cheats, but math can get a little funky for some players if you know what I mean.
4. Are you watching his ranges? He only gets that as a touch attack within the first range increment -- anything pass that and its a regular attack... with penalties for range increments.
IF he is dual wielding two pistols and using deadly aim we are looking at the following:
-4 penalty for two weapon fighting -2 penalty for deadly aim -- that means he's got a -6 penalty. Even with maxed out dex for level he's sitting on a 22 at maximum. Meaning he's +8 to hit maximum (+5 BAB +6 Dex +1 magic +1 trait +1 point blank shot - 4 two weapon fighting - 2 deadly aim = +8), with 1d8+12 damage on two shots...
A sample build if he's human:
1 Rapid Reload
H Deadly Aim
3 Point Blank Shot
4 Precise Shot
5 Two weapon fighting...
He must be using alchemical ammunition to do this too which gives him a misfire rate of 3 (meaning if he rolls a 1, 2, or 3 on the dice he misfires and breaks his gun).
If he doesn't have precise shot then he takes a penalty shooting into melees, and even with it other creatures can still give his target cover (even his allies).
So in the end what I'm saying is -- while his damage is possible... it isn't likely.
Touch ACs around level 5 are still in the 10~14 range -- meaning he should be missing about 10~25% of the time.
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So we also have a player doing twice the dmg of any other party member as a gunslinger. His build is the same as yours except add heirloom trait and two weapon fighting to focused shot
He makes the archer (fighter archtype) appear useless. Since the majority of the fights are at most 40 feet apart.
I think he has missed twice in the past month. And never mind the archer gets a measily +2 from strength that he had to buy. Where as the gunslinger is getting a +4 and then +2 from focused shot.
Is there a way an archer can use dex bonus for dmg because that would be awesome
Or can a crossbowman do that also?
The Dm is about to resort to making everything monkish to stop his reign of terror
So we also have a player doing twice the dmg of any other party member as a gunslinger. His build is the same as yours except add heirloom trait and two weapon fighting to focused shot
He makes the archer (fighter archtype) appear useless. Since the majority of the fights are at most 40 feet apart.
Archer Fighter useless? He must have screwed things up pretty badly at character creation, or you're doing something wrong.
I think he has missed twice in the past month. And never mind the archer gets a measily +2 from strength that he had to buy. Where as the gunslinger is getting a +4 and then +2 from focused shot.
No misfires? Does the Archer use Deadly Aim? Rapid Shot? Manyshot?
Is there a way an archer can use dex bonus for dmg because that would be awesome
Nope, just Strength bonus from a composite bow. Which isn't bad, considering Strength is your second most important stat as an Archer. Add to that the best rate of fire, cheapest ammo and one of the best ranges, and it becomes apparent who's the winner of this contest. For Fighters, don't forget to consider Weapon Training and (Greater) Weapon Specialization.
Or can a crossbowman do that also?
A Crossbowman archetype Fighter adds half his Dex bonus on damage rolls with crossbows, on top of Weapon Training and Specialization feats. Not as good as an Archer, but he should still be competitive with a Gunslinger.
The Dm is about to resort to making everything monkish to stop his reign of terror
Seriously, I'm pretty sure you guys are doing something wrong. No offense meant, I'm just concerned. If at all possible, I suggest you double-check the math on all characters, and perhaps compare the relative optimization of the builds.
See, Gun Training seems like a big deal, but it's the only way for a Gunslinger to add constant damage to firearms. Well, that and one point from Point Blank Shot. Meanwhile, an Archer adds his Str modifier (at least a part of it), Weapon Training, Greater Specialization, Point Blank Shot, doubles the damage on first arrow with Manyshot... all the while his vastly superior attack bonuses narrow the gap between attacking normal AC and Touch AC. Also, a bow can fire 220 arrows for the cost of firing a musket once, and bows never blow up in your face.
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I agree it feels like something is being done wrong. But I have double checked the numbers on archer and gunslinger and both appear accurate. Plus we use herolab for build.
One thing I didn't mention is we started at lvl 1 and we are only level 5 now. Yes I expect the archer to take the lead real soon but with having mister I can't miss. I am not too sure on that.
Yes all your stuff is true for higher level archers but so far the gunslinger dominates the fight
So we also have a player doing twice the dmg of any other party member as a gunslinger. His build is the same as yours except add heirloom trait and two weapon fighting to focused shot
He makes the archer (fighter archtype) appear useless. Since the majority of the fights are at most 40 feet apart.
I think he has missed twice in the past month. And never mind the archer gets a measily +2 from strength that he had to buy. Where as the gunslinger is getting a +4 and then +2 from focused shot.
Is there a way an archer can use dex bonus for dmg because that would be awesome
Or can a crossbowman do that also?
The Dm is about to resort to making everything monkish to stop his reign of terror
Um... not at that level he didn't and I took heirloom weapon into account.
Geez people read before you post crap like this ok?
That gunslinger above has nothing for HP nothing for AC and falls as fast as any rogue.
So here's my advice -- Pay attention to the rules -- you're friend obviously isn't -- and If someone hurts you hurt them back.
Honestly the above build will have at best a chain shirt since he's burning all his wealth and more on two +1 firearms and a belt of Dex +2 -- at level 5 he can't afford all that.
So do us all a favor and quit giving the Gunslinger an easy time.
An archer fighter will be at least +3 more to hit than the above gunslinger and will be taking just as many shots each round (possibly more) -- at the same level, without breaking the wealth by level guidelines.
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Wow I simply stated what was happening in our game. How that is crap is beyond me. Notice that he is not using two weapon he is using focused shot. God forbid my playtest results are based upon actually playing from lvl 1 up using published paizo adventures.
So please read before you post this crap.
Wow I simply stated what was happening in our game. How that is crap is beyond me. Notice that he is not using two weapon he is using focused shot. God forbid my playtest results are based upon actually playing from lvl 1 up using published paizo adventures.
So please read before you post this crap.
If he is using one gun then how, pray tell, is his build "just like yours, except add heirloom weapon, and two weapon fighting to focused shot."
I don't care how he got there -- (and honestly he shouldn't be capable of what you are claiming, unless your other party members are a sorcerer that only uses damage spells and a fighter with a 12 strength 12 dex that focuses on performances) I'm willing to bet somewhere someone isn't following the rules.
I am seeing the same thing. Different build. He has rapid shot giving him a 3rd shot on full round actions and is using revolvers (we are testing advanced firearms).
I allow my player to respec each week so we can test out different things (we are also play testing my rewrite of psionics).
He gets +9 to hit on each of his 3 shots (+10 now that they are all level 6) and does +12 on each hit. So 3d6 + 36 each of the first 2 rounds (he has to spend 2 move actions to reload).
With deadly aim and gun training working like strength on ranged weapons, this would be different -- +12 damage on the first hit, +7 on the second. It's only 5 less damage each round, but it feels more fair.
Oh, and he never misses with the cleric buffs. He either hits or misfires. I won't let him use alchemical yet, just because I don't want the extra 3d6 damage yet.
You do realize that without alchemical rounds he cannot fire more than two shots in a round right, and that is one with each gun.
Quite frankly I'm calling bull on this. Show me the build -- cause what I posted is all that is possible with pathfinder current rules, and even then I'm fudging wealth by level.
You're using Revolvers. That means he needs to be using Metal Cartridges. Those buggers cost a preeeeetty penny, even if he crafts them with Gunsmithing.
Also. Revolvers never misfire.
Ok I'm seeing so many rule breaks it's not funny at this point -- I'm not saying this to be rude -- just factual.
Reloading revolvers is always a move action currently.
Second he would actually shoot faster with alchemical rounds in a pistol instead of the revolver.
Paper cartridges are alchemical rounds -- with which reloading a pistol (but not a revolver) is a free action.
Next up is the character's size -- I'm assuming he's a halfling or gnome right? Otherwise I'm curious about that.
Next: Is he shooting into melee? If so he's -4 for it being a melee and if an ally is in the way that's a +4 to the foe's AC too -- that's a total effective penalty of -8 on his attack rolls, even as touch attacks.
Now another point about revolvers -- they don't misfire, and they get touch out to 5 range increments -- but he still takes the penalties for those range increments -- which is anything beyond 20 feet for a revolver -- be sure he's taking those penalties.
Now this isn't bad for a gunslinger -- and the damage if finally something to be positive about (honestly it is) but he's still not outdamaging a fighter of the same degree of optimization using a bow.
Wouldn't Rapid Reload (Revolver) make the Move Action into a Free Action though?
Wouldn't Rapid Reload (Revolver) make the Move Action into a Free Action though?
Currently by RAW -- No. Rapid Reload states that it reduces the time for reloading an one handed firearm to a move action -- and doesn't specific that it reduces it any more if you start with a move action. Paper Cartridges specifically state that they reduce the move action to a free action. Metal cartridges specifically set the reload time to a move action.
So anyway you go about it *currently* the only way rapid reload is useful to you is to use it with a non-advanced firearm with paper cartridges.
@Lostwriter:
Hm... a full round action is both nice and mean. It's harder to get both loaded that way, but you only provoke for reloading once (as a single action).
I would offer that while he's obviously over the line (for your campaign which is really the only line that matters in this case), that over all the gun training (as it currently stands) simply allows the gunslinger to do adequate damage.
I understand how he could have an initiative to be first (+6 dex, +2 gunslinger, possibly a trait for another +2 means +10 easily).
I'm looking at AC currently... IF he doesn't have mythral (which he really shouldn't) He's looking at an AC of 18? His saves, AC, and HP might be balancing points.
How do you set up encounters? What do they typically consist of? What are your expectations of a CR equivalent fight for your party? I ask because I want to help you find your campaign balance again, without going to the extreme (as much as it isn't) of changing rules, or feeling like you are targeting him specifically.
I would suggest that the real problem you are having more than anything else could be the abundance of wealth. With two +1 weapons (expensive weapons too), a belt, and anything else he has he is way over wealth by level -- I would suggest that fixing that might fix more of the problem.
Wouldn't Rapid Reload (Revolver) make the Move Action into a Free Action though?Currently by RAW -- No. Rapid Reload states that it reduces the time for reloading an one handed firearm to a move action -- and doesn't specific that it reduces it any more if you start with a move action. Paper Cartridges specifically state that they reduce the move action to a free action. Metal cartridges specifically set the reload time to a move action.
So anyway you go about it *currently* the only way rapid reload is useful to you is to use it with a non-advanced firearm with paper cartridges.
Hmm. I see (I'm too used to 3.5's Rapid Reload [Just recently got into Pathfinder, still get confused sometimes]). What about Lightning Reload? Would that reduce a Advanced Firearm from a Move Action to a Free Action?
Hmm. I see (I'm too used to 3.5's Rapid Reload [Just recently got into Pathfinder, still get confused sometimes]). What about Lightning Reload? Would that reduce a Advanced Firearm from a Move Action to a Free Action?
The problem is that lightning reload isn't worded right for advanced firearms either -- it says you can load a single barrel... not the cylinder. However I could see that one working further than I can the rapid reload since it specifies it works on one handed or two handed firearms and specifically reduces the reload times to either a swift or free action.
Beyond that it's just clearing the barrel clause.
However level 11 is a long time to wait for fast reloading.
Your problem (seriously) was using advanced firearms, why didn't you just make the gunslinger use single or double barrel pistols?
A revolver is always going to be better than a Bow, but that doesnt have anything to do with the character.
They included the revolver for people who are trying to use them in a different type campaign setting, the gunslinger isnt your problem it's the fire arms you let him have.
Oh, I know. I just have too many "optimizers" in my group.
Understanding this could be the key to 'fixing' all your problems. Some people simply do not do well running higher level or highly optimized games.
And that isn't a bad thing -- understanding your limits as a GM can lead to a more productive, more enjoyable table for everyone.
Only running to level 12 with slow exp progression? Alright -- so long as you are keeping me invested and enjoying the game I'm good with that. The problems come only if it feels like I'm "grinding" instead of role playing.
Your problem (seriously) was using advanced firearms, why didn't you just make the gunslinger use single or double barrel pistols?
A revolver is always going to be better than a Bow, but that doesn't have anything to do with the character.
They included the revolver for people who are trying to use them in a different type campaign setting, the gunslinger isnt your problem it's the fire arms you let him have.
Oh, I know. I just have too many "optimizers" in my group. If it's in the book they want to use it. If it's not explicitly stated, it's a loophole. It just wasn't worth the fight. We'll wait and see how it turns out later. We are actually thinking of scaling back to just Core, no splats.
If it's printed by pathfinder it's not a "splat" just because they called it "core rulebook" (which just means players and dm guides are together) doesnt mean APG, UM and UC are not core.
They are.The issue with "if it's printed they want to use it" goes back to rule zero, which ah...is printed.
Just say no.
Revolvers are even printed AS totally optional according to the DM.
Seriously , every one, just stop playing with these kinds of people!
Back in the 80s people like this couldn't even get invited to game tables because their rep got around.
Wouldn't Rapid Reload (Revolver) make the Move Action into a Free Action though?Currently by RAW -- No. Rapid Reload states that it reduces the time for reloading an one handed firearm to a move action -- and doesn't specific that it reduces it any more if you start with a move action. Paper Cartridges specifically state that they reduce the move action to a free action. Metal cartridges specifically set the reload time to a move action.
Actually you are wrong. Rapid Reload would move it down to a Free Action because the feat is assuming that you are not using Alchemical or Metal Cartridges
Actually you are wrong. Rapid Reload would move it down to a Free Action because the feat is assuming that you are not using Alchemical or Metal CartridgesWouldn't Rapid Reload (Revolver) make the Move Action into a Free Action though?Currently by RAW -- No. Rapid Reload states that it reduces the time for reloading an one handed firearm to a move action -- and doesn't specific that it reduces it any more if you start with a move action. Paper Cartridges specifically state that they reduce the move action to a free action. Metal cartridges specifically set the reload time to a move action.
No I am not -- Metal cartridges specifically set reloads to a move action -- rapid reload specifically sets reloads to a specific action.
ONLY paper cartridges currently lower reload times to a free action because they specifically state they do.
Now it might make sense that what you say could be correct, but as per RAW it is not.
Actually you are wrong. Rapid Reload would move it down to a Free Action because the feat is assuming that you are not using Alchemical or Metal CartridgesWouldn't Rapid Reload (Revolver) make the Move Action into a Free Action though?Currently by RAW -- No. Rapid Reload states that it reduces the time for reloading an one handed firearm to a move action -- and doesn't specific that it reduces it any more if you start with a move action. Paper Cartridges specifically state that they reduce the move action to a free action. Metal cartridges specifically set the reload time to a move action.
No I am not -- Metal cartridges specifically set reloads to a move action -- rapid reload specifically sets reloads to a specific action.
ONLY paper cartridges currently lower reload times to a free action because they specifically state they do.
Now it might make sense that what you say could be correct, but as per RAW it is not.
metallic cartridges also assume you are reloading the entire cylinder (reloading 6 chambers) so technically reloading 6 chambers is a move action vs. reloading one chamber with alchemical cartridges which is a free action.
metallic cartridges also assume you are reloading the entire cylinder (reloading 6 chambers) so technically reloading 6 chambers is a move action vs. reloading one chamber with alchemical cartridges which is a free action.
Well metal cartridges assume you reload all the shots at the same time -- depending on the number of shots for the weapon. Revolvers sure that's six shots... shotguns and rifles not so much -- and that's the point where advanced firearms (currently) get hurt the most.
metallic cartridges also assume you are reloading the entire cylinder (reloading 6 chambers) so technically reloading 6 chambers is a move action vs. reloading one chamber with alchemical cartridges which is a free action.Well metal cartridges assume you reload all the shots at the same time -- depending on the number of shots for the weapon. Revolvers sure that's six shots... shotguns and rifles not so much -- and that's the point where advanced firearms (currently) get hurt the most.
Well they aren't really getting "hurt", per se, because you get six shots before you have to do anything. (or however many barrels)
But i see your point, because the alchemical cartridge rapid/lightening reloader with an "archaic" pistol can out action economy a six gunner in the long run... because of the "loop hole" of endless 'free' actions. I think reloading pistols should maybe be changed to a swift action, because you only get one a turn.
But then that would hurt the gunslinger, because you would be back to move, shoot, reload. Then the only way to get around it would be the dead shot ability and making it not cost grit, which turns gunslinger into a oe shot wonder.
This is a really difficult class.
But paper cartridges with single barrels out reloading six guns has to be fixed somehow?