Ever since 3rd edition came out, I've always wondered why casters don't get bonus 0th level spells per day from a high ability score. Why? And why did Pathfinder continue this tradition? Is there really any good reason not to give bonus cantrips? Would it really break the game if a person could prepare 6 or 7 0th level spells per day?
The way it is now, Sorcerers have an unfair advantage over Wizards. Sorcerers can know 9 cantrips, while Wizards can only ever prepare 4 cantrips at a time (5 for a specialist). At no other spell level is there such a huge disparity between the number of spells a wizard can prepare at a time and the number of spells a sorcerer knows.
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Actually it is worse then that, wizards, specialist or no never get more then 4:
Each arcane school gives the wizard a number of school powers. In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a wizard can prepare a spell from his specialty school in that slot. This spell must be in the wizard's spellbook. A wizard can select a spell modified by a metamagic feat to prepare in his school slot, but it uses up a higher-level spell slot. Wizards with the universalist school do not receive a school slot.
from: here
On the other hand, Pathfinder made it so you could cast Cantrips all day long, without using them up. So there really is no need for bonus zero level spells.... when you can cast them repeatedly until the DM gets tired and cuts you off.
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Sorcerers have an unfair advantage over Wizards.
This is funny.
Cantrips have a very difficult time contributing meaningfully to encounters. (Encounters being the stick dev's used to measure game balance in 3.x and hence, PF)
Most cantrips are best used out of combat as minor utility spells. On the front of out of combat utility, even with half the cantrips, Wizards so far out pace Sorcerers, Sorcerers couldn't see their arcane counter-parts with a telescope on a clear day.
Actually it is worse then that, wizards, specialist or no never get more then 4:
Each arcane school gives the wizard a number of school powers. In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a wizard can prepare a spell from his specialty school in that slot. This spell must be in the wizard's spellbook. A wizard can select a spell modified by a metamagic feat to prepare in his school slot, but it uses up a higher-level spell slot. Wizards with the universalist school do not receive a school slot.from: here
Ouch. :(
Is this new to Pathfinder or have I accidentally been cheating by giving my specialist wizards an extra 0th level spell for 10+ years?
Sorcerers have an unfair advantage over Wizards.This is funny.
Whatever you may think about the state of the two classes overall, in this case, it is true.
Whatever you may think about the state of the two classes overall, in this case, it is true.Sorcerers have an unfair advantage over Wizards.This is funny.
Fighter have a d10 hit die and full Bab. Fighters have an unfair advantage over Wizards.
You do get a bonus 0 level spell. Only, to keep the pattern you get it at Int +0, or 10. This being the minimum Intelligence to cast 0-level spells, it's already factored in.
You do get a bonus 0 level spell. Only, to keep the pattern you get it at Int +0, or 10. This being the minimum Intelligence to cast 0-level spells, it's already factored in.
But then to keep the pattern similar to how the other bonus spells are gained, you'd get another bonus level 0 at 18, 26, 34, etc. But you don't.
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You do get a bonus 0 level spell. Only, to keep the pattern you get it at Int +0, or 10. This being the minimum Intelligence to cast 0-level spells, it's already factored in.
That's an angle I hadn't considered before. But if that were the case, shouldn't Wizards get 5 0th level spells per day at level 5? If "bonus" 0th level spells are already included in the progression, then that means the "base" 0th level spells max out at 3 per day, which is less than the 4 per day all of the others get. [Edit: And Symar makes a good point as well]
Every game I have ever run has houseruled this to allow bonus 0th-level spells.
I'd be interested to hear what the original rationale was for this decision.
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That sounds like a good idea to me, I had not considered it before but I am going to suggest it to my group. It would be easy to do, just expand the chart one to the left.
It's very simple, and makes things more internally consistent. And letting spellcasters prepare an additional cantrip is not going to break the game, since those spells are really only relevant at very low levels, anyway -- the same low levels where spellcasters tend to be less powerful than fighter-types.
Give them one bonus spell at a score of 10, two at 18, three at 26, etc.
Note that you can still prepare cantrips in your bonus 1st level slot, and AFAIK, they'd stay and be able to be cast all day long by RAW. You could even metamagic them a bit, say for that cool silent light without components, and still cast them the whole day unless I've missed something in the rules (the exeption being heighten spell, which turns them into un-cantrips :)
Beyond a simple question of "I wonder why?" this has never meaningfully affected any game I have ever played. Ever.
Oh, and I agree that it's a bit weird, but it's just the way things have been since 3.0. Too bad they didn't change it.
Houserule it if it bothers you; bonus lv0 at Int10/18/26 etc.
Sorcerers will still have more, but I never played a sorcerer and went "Ha! You poor wizard with your higher level spells, not knowing what it is like to have ALL the useful cantrips! Neener neener!"
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Actually I am considering house ruling that you can use any 0 level spell you have access to at any time. It will have absolutely no game effect if you have access to all your 0 level spells constantly and it makes more sense to me that a caster will be able to clean their robes or light their pipe at will.
You could always prepare a cantrip in a higher level spell slot, cantrips specifically are not expended when cast, as long as you aren't applying a metamagic to it, that should work fine.
Note that you can still prepare cantrips in your bonus 1st level slot, and AFAIK, they'd stay and be able to be cast all day long by RAW. You could even metamagic them a bit, say for that cool silent light without components, and still cast them the whole day unless I've missed something in the rules (the exeption being heighten spell, which turns them into un-cantrips :)
If you make a cantrip any level other than 0 (metamagic or using a higher level slot) the spell is no longer "at will."
It might be an interesting mechanic, but at this time it doesn't work that way.
Note that you can still prepare cantrips in your bonus 1st level slot, and AFAIK, they'd stay and be able to be cast all day long by RAW. You could even metamagic them a bit, say for that cool silent light without components, and still cast them the whole day unless I've missed something in the rules (the exeption being heighten spell, which turns them into un-cantrips :)If you make a cantrip any level other than 0 (metamagic or using a higher level slot) the spell is no longer "at will."
It might be an interesting mechanic, but at this time it doesn't work that way.
I believe you can prep a cantrip in a 1st level slot and cast out of it all day.
Core, 79, "These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again."
I believe you can prep a cantrip in a 1st level slot and cast out of it all day.Core, 79, "These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again."
Probably, but I think the issue here was using Metamagics on your cantrips. When you do so, it's no longer a level 0 spell and expends spell slots as normal.
Well, thats a bummer. I suppose you could create a staff of cantrips, every caster in the party could recharge it with a free cantrip use, and they could use it to cast any cantrip out. Not sure what the pricing would be though, looks like 400 X 0 (level of highest spell) X 1 (don't need a higher CL). So 0, or 400. Plus 300 for the 2nd spell, and 200 for each after that. 21 spells, so 400 + 300 + (200*19) = 4500gp. Not bad...
Note: The staff would still consume charges and could at most cast 10/day.
Note that you can still prepare cantrips in your bonus 1st level slot, and AFAIK, they'd stay and be able to be cast all day long by RAW. You could even metamagic them a bit, say for that cool silent light without components, and still cast them the whole day unless I've missed something in the rules (the exeption being heighten spell, which turns them into un-cantrips :)If you make a cantrip any level other than 0 (metamagic or using a higher level slot) the spell is no longer "at will."
It might be an interesting mechanic, but at this time it doesn't work that way.
I believe you can prep a cantrip in a 1st level slot and cast out of it all day.
Core, 79, "These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again."
You may be correct. However, I've always taken "cantrip" to mean spells that are prepared using the 0 level spell slot. In which case using a higher spell slot for any reason would negate the "At will" aspect.
If Cantrip means the spell(s) and not the spell slot than you would be correct. However if "cantrip" means the spell itself than there is no reason that if one applied metamagic to cantrips that they wouldnt continue to be Essentially at will. It could be an interesing mechanic, but I don't think this is the spirit of the cantrip concept. Though it may in fact be the letter of the cantrip concept.
You may be correct. However, I've always taken "cantrip" to mean spells that are prepared using the 0 level spell slot. In which case using a higher spell slot for any reason would negate the "At will" aspect.
If Cantrip means the spell(s) and not the spell slot than you would be correct. However if "cantrip" means the spell itself than there is no reason that if one applied metamagic to cantrips that they wouldnt continue to be Essentially at will. It could be an interesing mechanic, but I don't think this is the spirit of the cantrip concept. Though it may in fact be the letter of the cantrip concept.
Would you allow for someone with magical lineage for magic missile to prep merciful magic missiles Level 0 spells and cast all day?
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I think everyone who has posted so far has missed this important fact: wizards get every 0th-level spell in the Core/APG into their spellbooks, except for their prohibited school spells. They can even get those, if they are willing to pay the additional cost of transcribing prohibited-school spells into their spellbook.
So most wizards will have 15-21 0th-level spells to choose from every day. Of those that they choose from each day, they can cast four of them repeatedly. The sorcerer, on the other hand, has six (or more if they use the Favored/Spell Human option from the APG) 0th-level spells to choose from every day. Only those six (possibly more: if they choose an additional 0th-level spell each level, they can theoretically get all 21 0th-level spells by 16th level) each day.
Now you see why the Sorcerers and Wizards I roleplay tend to get Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Wand just for the 0th-level spells, to free up using a different 0th-level spell in its' place. Every wizard should have a "golf bag" of wands with 0th-level and 1st-level spells by 7th level (and a caddy to carry them). Sorcerers can craft wands with their spells and then use the even-numbered ability to switch out old spells for new ones, keeping the old spell via wand use. Of course, you cannot heighten the level of a spell via wand, but that's the cost of variability.
Would you allow for someone with magical lineage for magic missile to prep merciful magic missiles Level 0 spells and cast all day?You may be correct. However, I've always taken "cantrip" to mean spells that are prepared using the 0 level spell slot. In which case using a higher spell slot for any reason would negate the "At will" aspect.
If Cantrip means the spell(s) and not the spell slot than you would be correct. However if "cantrip" means the spell itself than there is no reason that if one applied metamagic to cantrips that they wouldnt continue to be Essentially at will. It could be an interesing mechanic, but I don't think this is the spirit of the cantrip concept. Though it may in fact be the letter of the cantrip concept.
As triomegazero has already pointed out your idea has already been shot down by the great and powerful creative director. I like your idea though and I would give serious consideration to house ruling it in.
As far as magical lineage goes I am unfamiliar with it. It sounds like a trait. Regardless I've never seen anything in pathfinder that adds metamagic and makes a spell less than it's original level. I suspect that may be a misinterpretation.
As triomegazero has already pointed out your idea has already been shot down by the great and powerful creative director. I like your idea though and I would give serious consideration to house ruling it in.
As far as magical lineage goes I am unfamiliar with it. It sounds like a trait. Regardless I've never seen anything in pathfinder that adds metamagic and makes a spell less than it's original level. I suspect that may be a misinterpretation.
Yes it is a trait, "Magical Lineage: ... Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."
Yes it is a trait, "Magical Lineage: ... Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."As triomegazero has already pointed out your idea has already been shot down by the great and powerful creative director. I like your idea though and I would give serious consideration to house ruling it in.
As far as magical lineage goes I am unfamiliar with it. It sounds like a trait. Regardless I've never seen anything in pathfinder that adds metamagic and makes a spell less than it's original level. I suspect that may be a misinterpretation.
I suspect that even if that is the "letter of the law" its not the spirit. I will be looking up the trait when I get home to verify. If it were possible than more mages would have 0 level eschew materials magic missiles all day long. It's very munchkin.
Edit: I just read the trait on my Ipad. It would seem you are correct. With that trait you could have 0 level at will eschewed magic missles. I even read the feats section about metamagic. I don't see anything that prevents it...except maybe your DM. I may take advantage of this next time I play a wizard. It would be nice to have an at will spell that is effective at every level.
I suspect that even if that is the "letter of the law" its not the spirit. I will be looking up the trait when I get home to verify. If it were possible than more mages would have 0 level eschew materials magic missiles all day long. It's very munchkin.Edit: I just read the trait on my Ipad. It would seem you are correct. With that trait you could have 0 level at will eschewed magic missles. I even read the feats section about metamagic. I don't see anything that prevents it...except maybe your DM. I may take advantage of this next time I play a wizard. It would be nice to have an at will spell that is effective at every level.
Eschew Materials isn't a metamagic feat and it has nothing to do with spell level.
Been shot down already.
That thread is about metamagic'ed cantrips though, and I assume that's the context JJ's answer should be taken in. I disagree that a 0-level spell prepared in a 1st level slot (while still being a 0-level spell) is 'expendable'. Seems perfectly reasonable by both RAW and RAI, imho.
And on the off chance that this was what James Jacobs meant after all, well, then I disagree with his interpretation. ;)
Ever since 3rd edition came out, I've always wondered why casters don't get bonus 0th level spells per day from a high ability score. Why? And why did Pathfinder continue this tradition? Is there really any good reason not to give bonus cantrips? Would it really break the game if a person could prepare 6 or 7 0th level spells per day?
The way it is now, Sorcerers have an unfair advantage over Wizards. Sorcerers can know 9 cantrips, while Wizards can only ever prepare 4 cantrips at a time (5 for a specialist). At no other spell level is there such a huge disparity between the number of spells a wizard can prepare at a time and the number of spells a sorcerer knows.
It is cantrips...who cares. But if you want to house rule it it is fairly easy to do as other posters have alrready suggested. It would not break the game.
Though I have to serious disagree with sorcerers having a unfair advantage due to them getting more cantrips to cast in a day than a wizard. I mean seriously? Though if you think sorcerers have a big advantage here...than maybe it will break your game to give wizards more.
Eschew Materials isn't a metamagic feat and it has nothing to do with spell level.
I just looked it up. You're right. I think in a previous version is was considered a metamagic feat with a +0 adjustment. Regardless it's never been an issue before.
Save that you can't adjust a metamagic cost below zero.
Rules quote please?
Cantrips are not spells, they are magical tricks that essentially have a different architecture to them which renew themselves as spent. Spell slots however are expended and if you use a spell slot to power a cantrip it effectively becomes a spell and is expended as normal.
Pathfinder SRD: "Cantrips
Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from an opposition school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below)."
They most definitely are spells.
Ever since 3rd edition came out, I've always wondered why casters don't get bonus 0th level spells per day from a high ability score.
Me too. That's the first houserule I'd apply. Extrapolate bonus cantrips from the ability score table. (1 bonus cantrip/orison at 10, 2 at 18, ...)
The burden of rules proof is your own. You can't adjust a cost when there is no cost to adjust.
APG, 165, "A merciful spell does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell’s actual level."
APG, 329, "Magical Lineage: ... Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."
Merciful says it does not take a higher level slot. Magical lineage says it is treated as one lower. Going with magic missile on this example. Magic missile is 1st level. Merciful magic missile is still 1st level. Merciful magic missile with magical lineage applied is 0 level.
Now please, provide the quote that says you cannot do this. You say you cannot adjust the cost because there is not one. Magical lineage does not say it reduces the cost. It says that you treat the level of the spell as one lower.
The burden of rules proof is your own. You can't adjust a cost when there is no cost to adjust.APG, 165, "A merciful spell does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell’s actual level."
APG, 329, "Magical Lineage: ... Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level."
Merciful says it does not take a higher level slot. Magical lineage says it is treated as one lower. Going with magic missile on this example. Magic missile is 1st level. Merciful magic missile is still 1st level. Merciful magic missile with magical lineage applied is 0 level.
Now please, provide the quote that says you cannot do this. You say you cannot adjust the cost because there is not one. Magical lineage does not say it reduces the cost. It says that you treat the level of the spell as one lower.
It appears as far as the technical aspects of the rules you can do this first level spell as a zero level spell. However, I suspect most DM's wouldn't allow this due to the ultra cheeze factor.
So as with most legal rules "breaking" (for lack of a better word) it's going to be up to the DM if he wants it in his game.
Well, thats a bummer. I suppose you could create a staff of cantrips, every caster in the party could recharge it with a free cantrip use, and they could use it to cast any cantrip out. Not sure what the pricing would be though, looks like 400 X 0 (level of highest spell) X 1 (don't need a higher CL). So 0, or 400. Plus 300 for the 2nd spell, and 200 for each after that. 21 spells, so 400 + 300 + (200*19) = 4500gp. Not bad...
Note: The staff would still consume charges and could at most cast 10/day.
Note that for magic item creation, cantrips use an effective level of 1/2. So you theoretical staff would be even cheaper.