We're running Kingmaker, and one of the PCs is playing a cleric with a charger build. Still, it looks like he isn't going to use a method that would normally grant a beefy animal, such as a subdomain granting animal companion or special mount from Paladin levels.
He has already had his first horse literally torn apart in combat at level two, so this matter is a bit of a concern. It will only become worse as time goes on.
Another option would be allowing the Leadership feat (normally banned in our games) with no followers, but where the cohort is some sort of really-beefy mount.
A third option would be making horses purchaseable, where horses with more hit dice are rarer and more expensive. While I like this option, I'd have to worry about how to properly price these creatures at each level.
Are there any other suggestions? Which seems to be the most balanced and elegant?
aside from using an animal other then a horse I suppose the player just has to spend some of his gold on pumping the AC of the horse, full plate barding and what not. The mounted combat avoidance roll is useful too so dont let him forget it.
or take a level in sorcerer/wizard/witch/summoner and use the mount spell
Animal Companion is the best method, and nothing is going to change that, really.
Leadership as the provider for a more durable animal might work. Let it grant the same benefit as a ranger (i.e. not as tough as a druid's companion).
Beyond that, the only other idea I have is looking for more powerful creatures as mounts, like unicorns, nightmares, tarrasques.
Or have him own a whole herd of horses, and simply replace the ones getting killed.
Having X horses shot from underneath you used to be something to brag about.
Advancing the horse as a 'generic animal companion' seems like a good idea, just like a ranger. Just do not use share spells or any other ability a normal fighter couldn't use. You might also want to require some skill investment in animal handling, seems pretty harmless as a feat.
Kingmaker is a campaign designed for the Leadership feat. I would not take the followers away. They just become people who work for him. For instance, if he is the General, he has many soldiers in the ranks who idolize him.
Really, Leadership provides slightly more durable mounts than animal companions, especially non-druid animal companions. As far as getting him to level 7 to take the feat, allow him to buy expensive horses bred and trained for war. A heavy horse already has the advanced template, so make sure he is getting one of those. Then give it a couple more hit dice. A 4HD horse would be a prize possession, bred for war. Eventually it would fall, but that is the same HD as a Ranger's animal companion at level 7. When he can finally take leadership, maybe he can get a pegasus or a drake.
Why can't he just use handle animal to train something like a rhino or hippogryph?
If you can't use it for something like that...
The cleric probably wants to get that paladin like feel without being a paladin.. a rhino doesnt fit the theme
Or you could just not attack his/her mount. You woud still have to worry about AOEs, but if you just make sure to attack him/her, the problem abates for a while.
Another method would be to provide him with an item from the Taldor, Echoes of Glory, Companion book.
Talisman of the Summoned Steed. It is a bit like a figurine of wondrous power, in that if the mount is killed, it turns back into a small statuette. A command word turns it from a statuette to horse form and back.
search up wild cohort on the wotc page
edit: ah hell I'll do it for you here you go
search up wild cohort on the wotc page
edit: ah hell I'll do it for you here you go
30 minutes too late to the party... The LINK Glutton posted, LOL! Ranger-like Companion in a feat.
Uber cheese, but take the animal domain for animal companion. then take the feat from the apg that adds up to 3 levels to your effective level for determining your animal companion. (the page is slow in loading and is giving me an annoying redirect or I'd look it up for you)
I suggested in a thread on EN World something like this:
Allow training combat ability, instead of just tricks.
DC 25, 1 week per "level". Gives one level of Warrior or Expert. Limited to 1 level per 2 ranks in Handle Animal.
The nice thing about Expert levels is that the animal gets a high Will save and 2 skillpoints per level. Nice for that scouting Hawk, etc.
But for the horse, Warrior levels should shore up the combat weakness.
I'd suggest purchasing a horse with "levels" costs an extra 1000gp per extra level it has.
This allows up to a 10 lvl Warrior horse (12 HD), if trained by a 20th level handle animal person, for 10,000gp. If you look at the figurines of wondrous power, it's fairly equitable (creatures that are shorter lived, but can come back after dying, etc).
I have no idea on the actual gameplay balance of this though. It's definitely weaker than an Animal Companion, so it's not stepping on any toes.
One thing to note, the extra HD gained from the levels can allow the player to put the extra stat bonus into Int, unless you specifically disallow that. It makes for special animals that can think a little more beyond the typical animal (and can understand language, so less need of tricks for general directing). If you want to keep this in the domain of Animal Companions, you can deny this from the training involved and only allow increases to physical stats, etc.
So, he has a build depending on charging, but doesn't want to do the things that support a charging build. He wants you to do it for him.... Why? Either he should come up with a plan himself to solve this problem in game or in character design or he should realize that he had a critical flaw in his character design, shrug his shoulders and say, "Oh well, I'm still playing a cleric. I've still got a viable character."
Sounds like player pouting to me.
So, he has a build depending on charging, but doesn't want to do the things that support a charging build. He wants you to do it for him.... Why? Either he should come up with a plan himself to solve this problem in game or in character design or he should realize that he had a critical flaw in his character design, shrug his shoulders and say, "Oh well, I'm still playing a cleric. I've still got a viable character."
Sounds like player pouting to me.
I agree. There are several ways he could have built a mount into his character concept. He chose not to. Now he is asking for more cake to go with his cheese.
Help him find a method to provide himself with a mount, that does not essentially cost nothing.
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Your job as a DM to run the game. Making an exception for one character. means to balance things, you need to make exceptions for the other players. This is a down hill slide for your ability to keap the players in check on what they can do. The cleric hade options he did not take. This is not your problem as a DM. It's his problem as a player. Let him solve the problem.
If Leadership won't work for you, does any of your other players have positions open for playing characters? If so, maybe one could play a Summoner with a mount-like Eidolon? Or, alternatively, play something like a unicorn or giant eagle type PC? Then they could work together in attacking the same targets, etc?
Barring that, the only thing beyond Leadership or the Animal Domain is fairly cost heavy.
a) getting a construct in the shape of a mount
b) regularly making deals with planar allies to serve as your mount (dragon horses, etc).
Tough nuts to the horses - they're the reason why that seriously nasty Spirited Charge feat gets used. Without a mount there is no ability to make a Spirited Charge. I've seen players forget to attack mounts - apparently, the gp that the horse is worth is of greater value as loot than the 1k+ gp a reincarnate costs to get over being dead. (Let alone the two restorations it will require to remove the permanent negative levels, costing even more gp.) Such players fall like wheat before a scythe at harvest time.
The guy on the horse is a lot less dangerous when he moves at 1/2 or 1/3rd the speed of his mount and can no longer skewer his foes with those sharp, shiny lances. Barding for horse and the best armor and shield for the wearer are the norm for shock cavalry for this very reason. That is, light infantry and archers really don't want to get turned into skewers. Nor much of anything else does either.
Wolves on the ground - and any similar creatures - are not going to be able to easily attack the rider - the horse's legs are right there for chomping though, and hamstringing the beast gets the two legs on the ground in proper chomping range quickly enough.
Is he investing money into protecting his mount? He needs to do that. I have a PC with a horse right out of the Bestiary. The party is now level 14 and his mount is doing just fine. He keeps in mind the limitations of his mount and does what he can to keep the mount protected. He uses spells, gear, and magic items to keep the mount as safe as he can. He also uses the Ride skill and Mounted Combat to help minimize the incoming damage.
It's not perfect but there are some things the player can do if he is serious about keeping his mount for a while.
My solution was simple. I advanced the combat-trained horse by 2 HD to make it a 4 HD creature, and if anything, that made it a little too hard to kill. Though, I recently found out that I made a mistake in the build by also giving it an ability score increase. I figured a creature with 4 HD would get one, but it turns out that normal racial HD don't count towards the "ability score increase every 4 HD" formula, so a horse would need 6 HD to receive an ability score increase.
Huh? Where'd you get that idea? Creatures get +1 ability score every 4 levels like everyone else (though its assumed their starting HD already has them included).
A horse that goes from 2 HD to 4 HD gets the bonus.
Where are you finding otherwise?
Then take the feat from the apg that adds up to 3 levels to your effective level for determining your animal companion.
There is no such feat in the APG. Might you be referring to the Boon Companion from Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets?
Um, guys, there's a REAL simple solution, as long as he's at least 5th level.
Have him Call Lesser Planar Ally up a Celestial Steed and request its services. It'll get tougher by level, it can be replaced, and its tougher then a normal horse, and intelligent, to boot!
Another solution would be a Divine Mount spell, that advances by level, but that's a custom job.
==Aelryinth
I just got back to this thread, and I'm going to digest the things you've said and suggested. Thanks for what's been posted so far!
As far as NPCs attacking the mount ... I'm willing to make small considerations where necessary, yet there are times where I would have to simply ignore the combatants' natures and blatantly go easy on the players to make that possible. If the players are hit by a Fireball of any appreciable level; when the players are maneuvered into particular formations by creatures with Cleave; or hungry, stupid wandering monsters that want to grab the biggest creature available and eat it (granted, there are other mounts in play that could satisfy that desire).
As far as the cleric's choices, I'm not judging him, and I'd be skeptical of responses that recommend such a course of action. Before this thread, the only ways I knew of to get better mounts dictate class choice, and the player is interested in playing his vision of a Chaotic Good mounted revolutionary priest. Having him alter the nature of his character to achieve a style of combat seems unpalatable to me, which is why I held out for solutions that may come in the form of skill uses, purchases, magic items, spells, feats, or otherwise.
I just got back to this thread, and I'm going to digest the things you've said and suggested. Thanks for what's been posted so far!
As far as NPCs attacking the mount ... I'm willing to make small considerations where necessary, yet there are times where I would have to simply ignore the combatants' natures and blatantly go easy on the players to make that possible. If the players are hit by a Fireball of any appreciable level; when the players are maneuvered into particular formations by creatures with Cleave; or hungry, stupid wandering monsters that want to grab the biggest creature available and eat it (granted, there are other mounts in play that could satisfy that desire).
As far as the cleric's choices, I'm not judging him, and I'd be skeptical of responses that recommend such a course of action. Before this thread, the only ways I knew of to get better mounts dictate class choice, and the player is interested in playing his vision of a Chaotic Good mounted revolutionary priest. Having him alter the nature of his character to achieve a style of combat seems unpalatable to me, which is why I held out for solutions that may come in the form of skill uses, purchases, magic items, spells, feats, or otherwise.
Realistically, predators do not go after the biggest creatures, they attack the small ones (which are usually less of a fight). Intelligent hungry creatures may try for the horse instead of the rider, but there are easier targets than a band of adventurers.
As far as the cleric's choices, I'm not judging him, and I'd be skeptical of responses that recommend such a course of action. Before this thread, the only ways I knew of to get better mounts dictate class choice, and the player is interested in playing his vision of a Chaotic Good mounted revolutionary priest. Having him alter the nature of his character to achieve a style of combat seems unpalatable to me, which is why I held out for solutions that may come in the form of skill uses, purchases, magic items, spells, feats, or otherwise.
The problem is that there are options for a mounted cleric. Playstyle and character concept are not independent choices, they have to be interdependent. If you want to be a holy warrior with a mount that's able to survive in combat, you need to make choices that support that. You could take the Animal domain or one of it's subdomains. You could be an oracle with the nature mystery. You could be a paladin. But you're not going to be a wizard. You're not going to be a barbarian. That's not to say that a wizard or barbarian couldn't worship a god and consider themselves to be a holy warrior - they just don't draw any power directly from their god, and complaining that they don't misses the point. Likewise, if you want to be a reality-altering god, you're going to be a wizard or sorcerer. You can't make a reality-altering fighter concept then complain that it doesn't work.
I'm not trying to say that the player is wrong. There's certainly ways they can make it work, but they have to make the appropriate choices. They need to invest in a wand of mount for the party wizard to use for them instead of a wand of CLW. Or they need to invest in armor and magical protections (cast or items) for their mount instead of themselves. Or they need to take the feats and skills to keep their mount alive. Or they just need to buy a bunch of horses. On the other hand, the GM should work with the player too - maybe convert the paladin of freedom alternate class. Maybe let him find/buy a custom magic item that keeps him supplied in mounts. Maybe let him buy the advanced mount people have suggested at some kind of markup. But no matter how he gets the mount, he has to give up something to get it. If he took the animal domain, he'd be giving up the power granted by whatever other domain he didn't take. If he takes feats, he's giving up other abilities from those feats. If he spends money, that's money he isn't spending on other things.
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I just got back to this thread, and I'm going to digest the things you've said and suggested. Thanks for what's been posted so far!
As far as NPCs attacking the mount ... I'm willing to make small considerations where necessary, yet there are times where I would have to simply ignore the combatants' natures and blatantly go easy on the players to make that possible. If the players are hit by a Fireball of any appreciable level; when the players are maneuvered into particular formations by creatures with Cleave; or hungry, stupid wandering monsters that want to grab the biggest creature available and eat it (granted, there are other mounts in play that could satisfy that desire).
As far as the cleric's choices, I'm not judging him, and I'd be skeptical of responses that recommend such a course of action. Before this thread, the only ways I knew of to get better mounts dictate class choice, and the player is interested in playing his vision of a Chaotic Good mounted revolutionary priest. Having him alter the nature of his character to achieve a style of combat seems unpalatable to me, which is why I held out for solutions that may come in the form of skill uses, purchases, magic items, spells, feats, or otherwise.
He did not make choices to suport the type of character he waned to play. Now that there is a problem he needs it solved. The best case is he takes Leadership at level 7. Then takes his mount as his cohort. The idea of geting a free anamil companion with out given any thing up for it should be out of the question. Im not judging him. He made his choices. He now needs to live with the choices he made.