I made a alchemist hybrid during the interim between rd 1 and rd 2
Pretty much, I traded extracts for deeds. the character is otherwise an alchemist who used its feats primarily for gunslinging.
Here's the rub.
You dont get alot of deed fro giving up extracts, so it seemed like a fair trade.
Im missing out on a few bonus feats.
But the alchemist still has discoveries and mutagens, deeds are NOT worth extracts, mutagens AND discoveries AND Bombs.
So there is a tilt in the scales somewhere, either the Alch has waaay too much or the gunslinger has waaaay too little. Yes I have Alch saves and BAB but that still doesn't measure the trade off.
extracts are technically worth deeds and bonus feats in my mind.
Deeds are really all the gunslinger has going for it, and the majority of them are weak.
The line between deed and feat is very blurred, as some deed feats should be deeds and some deeds are good enough to be feats where the rest of them languish somewhere around quirky trait.
I think Deeds have something to learn from discoveries.
When you mess with the classes, they become unbalanced? Who knew?
Well, what is there to be productive about? The gunslinger is the best at using guns because he has the most unrestricted access to the grit mechanic, and grit is his primary class feature. If you give that to someone else in exchange for only one of their secondary class features, of course he's going to be as good or better at it. I believe that such experimenting with class abilities and roles constitutes homebrew material, and coming into the playtest forum to announce that your homebrew material is unbalanced isn't productive.
If the alchemist got access to grit the normal way - say, the Amateur Gunslinger feat, or multiclassing into gunslinger - and still wound up outshining the gunslinger, than this would be an issue. As it stands, though, it involves heavy modification of the classes as they stand, and as such is more or less useless for playtest data.
The pathfinder classes aren't modular to the point where you can assign every class feature a "value" and expect to be able to swap out class features with the same "value" and still have a balanced class.
But the alchemist still has discoveries and mutagens, deeds are NOT worth extracts, mutagens AND discoveries AND Bombs.Actually that was his point. He's completely correct btw. Deeds are weak, until they're bumped up to something actually useful Gunslinger will continue to remain a dip class.
I'm with Rixx on this one. You can't just swap out class features and call it a day.
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I'm with Rixx on this one. You can't just swap out class features and call it a day.
But the alchemist still has discoveries and mutagens, deeds are NOT worth extracts, mutagens AND discoveries AND Bombs.Actually that was his point. He's completely correct btw. Deeds are weak, until they're bumped up to something actually useful Gunslinger will continue to remain a dip class.
As a design exercise? Sure you can. Gunslinger has no concretely defined power level or abilities as of yet.
It's called technical benchmarking.
The class features aren't just a manifestation of a single-dimensional "power level" distributed among multiple abilities - they all work together in tandem to produce a unique class. Swapping class abilities sometimes works, but it can't work every time. You can't swap out eggs for an equal amount of carrots and still get a cake.
If your main class skill can be given to others, and they can do your job better than you, then why are you there?
That was the point of OP.
And I agree
If amature gunslinger makes everyone else a better gunman than the actual gunslinger, why bother being one beyond that first level?
Its like 3.0 ranger; a dip class
Because he didn't use Amateur Gunslinger, he actually gave the Deeds mechanics to the Alchemist in place of Extracts.
And Alex, what benchmarking is being established making an amalgamation of the two classes? He actually gave the deeds to the Alchemist, not use amateur gunslinger or anything like that.
Even If I dont Swap out extracts (which isnt secondary its the alchemist's spells) but KEEP extracts and take amateur gunslinger, extra grit and exotic WP guns. I'm STILL better at it AND I dont need the high wisdom, IN fact Im even BETTER off with a full alchemist and about four feats (Id want deft shootist too)
There is no way Deeds and a Weapon Proficiency or two = extracts, mutagen and discoveries.
By the way "you can't swap out abilities" is balderdash, what's an Archetype?
What did they do to first make the gunslinger in round one? They swapped out fighter stuff and swapped in deeds.
Armor training and weapon training and fighter only feats and bonus feats are the main fighter abilities, they dropped those, added grit, deeds (which are basically the same mechanic) and a weapon proficiency.
The only thing the alchemist would be lacking on are things like dex to damage.
So by trading in extracts for access to a few deeds, and not having to spend an extra three feats? Is it worth more than extracts? Mutagen too? (maybe maybe not)
But there is no way it's worth mutagen, extracts and discovery, AND bombs. You might say its worth extracts and mutagen, but then you still have discoveries and bombs??
Not to mention MY version still retains the 3/4 bab. Which Im not after, and isn't needed. but whats +1/4 BaB worth? Bombs maybe? then you still have discoveries.
Touch AC isn't a "gun slinger" thing, it's a gun thing, and it's probably the slingers, biggest "pop".
Yea Yea, spend a grit and double the touch range... but your never going to do that much.
An Alchemist is almost better with just his quick clear and 1 grit point from amateur gunslinger.
In fact I might just take a straight amateur gunslinging alchemist and play the two classes side by side.
I still think the gunslinger needs something on top of deeds (or maybe major deeds after 7th ?) that are basically like discoveries, I like some ideas Ive heard from some other players, I think Elghin said something about "innovations" or upgrades to a gun, maybe something like spagyric devices that are cantankerous, dont really work for other people, and need daily maintenance or they fall apart (things like see invisible site, or the like)
If you just draw down to it, the Gunslinger needs 'discoveries' of his own (and a few more deeds added in)
Trading out abilities as an archetype is good if you are a professional game designer, which I am guessing you aren't.
You can still make this claim, of course, but if you want to get taken seriously you should do it by the rules (using the Amateur Gunslinger feat, etc.) rather than homebrew stuff and then declare that the original material is unbalanced.
Trading out abilities as an archetype is good if you are a professional game designer, which I am guessing you aren't.
You can still make this claim, of course, but if you want to get taken seriously you should do it by the rules (using the Amateur Gunslinger feat, etc.) rather than homebrew stuff and then declare that the original material is unbalanced.
+5
Trading out abilities as an archetype is good if you are a professional game designer, which I am guessing you aren't.
Wow, time out! Low blow there. It might be an odd way but he is trying to help all the same, and his opinion, just like ours was asked for by those very professional game designers you pointed state he is not. If they want his opinion then he (like us) can't be that horrible.
However I would take issue with the idea that somehow the alchemist that burns through his feats to be a gunslinger is going to do that better than the gunslinger.
He might have other things going for him -- but I really doubt he'll be better at being a gunslinger than the class of the same name.
Missing a full BAB for starters.
An alchemist can't even get Amateur Gunslinger until 5th level.
Can't take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level 1 since he has a BAB of +0. doesn't get another feat until level 3, which he spends on EWP: Firearms, and then doesn't get another until level 5, when he can take Amateur Gunslinger and finally gain access to a single first level deed, using an ability that keys off Wisdom, a score that he may want to dump in favor of Intelligence, Dexterity, and Constitution. By this time, the Gunslinger has gotten proficiency, more grit, and six times more deeds without spending a single feat, and adds his Dexterity modifier to damage for all firearms - all this on top of the feats he gets for level advancement, which he can spend on ranged combat and extra grit tricks. And he has +2 more BAB.
I really have no idea how you can make an Alchemist a better gunslinger than the Gunslinger as per the rules.
An alchemist can't even get Amateur Gunslinger until 5th level.
Can't take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level 1 since he has a BAB of +0. doesn't get another feat until level 3, which he spends on EWP: Firearms, and then doesn't get another until level 5, when he can take Amateur Gunslinger and finally gain access to a single first level deed, using an ability that keys off Wisdom, a score that he may want to dump in favor of Intelligence, Dexterity, and Constitution. By this time, the Gunslinger has gotten proficiency, more grit, and six times more deeds without spending a single feat, and adds his Dexterity modifier to damage for all firearms - all this on top of the feats he gets for level advancement, which he can spend on ranged combat and extra grit tricks. And he has +2 more BAB.
I really have no idea how you can make an Alchemist a better gunslinger than the Gunslinger as per the rules.
A half-elf alternate racial trait is a free martial or exotic weapon proficiency. But there is still the cost to consider.
Trading out abilities as an archetype is good if you are a professional game designer, which I am guessing you aren't.
You can still make this claim, of course, but if you want to get taken seriously you should do it by the rules (using the Amateur Gunslinger feat, etc.) rather than homebrew stuff and then declare that the original material is unbalanced.
Wow, time out low blow there.
However I would take issue with the idea that somehow the alchemist that burns through his feats to be a gunslinger is going to do that better than the gunslinger.
He might have other things going for him -- but I really doubt he'll be better at being a gunslinger than the class of the same name.
Well I said I could do it another way.
But the original point is a character class like alchemist gets lots of stuff, deeds dont equal it, heck most of them are not more than traits and dont measure up to talents or rage powers ;which is probably why you get them all instead of having to choose, because like stephen said, the "trait" ones would never see the light of day.
Essentially deeds are just rebadged class abilities.
I think to really bring the gunslinger up to par, he could get the deed feats as bonus feats at certain levels, leave them as feats so amateurs could still take them. In fact the more I look at it, yea, that would do it, and do it nicely, then he can save his normally acquired feats for ranged combat feats or whatever he wanted.
Of course, innovations would do the trick too, as would the ranger style feats selection based on weapon type idea that's been kicked around.
Either way, the Gunslinger needs its extra 'thing' (ie discoveries, or mutagen or whatever the equivalent is)
Yeah, there's no way you can afford a gun at level 1 unless you're a gunslinger.
You'll probably also want to take t Gunsmithing feat, sucking away another one of your precious, precious feats. Maybe by level 11 you'll be able to reload kind of fast?
Missing a full BAB for starters.
The class doesnt NEED full bab.
Here's my issue.
Your topic is called "Alchemist makes a better gunslinger than the gunslinger", which is provably false. If you open your topic with something so blatantly incorrect, people aren't going to take you seriously.
Missing a full BAB for starters.The class doesnt NEED full bab.
Why not?
Rixx, I just showed you multiple times, that the abilities arent 'worth' or equal to each other. The alchemist/gunmage I had been playing with, like i said (which went through several evolutions) ended up swapping extracts for deeds. This is because the deeds that are RAW arent worth anything more than that.
I could have say, kept extracts and traded in mutagens. or whatever.
But if you trade extracts for deeds, and mutagens for full bab, bombs for what? the WP gunsmithing and a free broken gun.... eh maybe. but your still left with discoveries and the fact the alch gets way more skill points, do you trade the skill points for HD? I wouldn't. So.... like i said using alchemist as a base class and trading out what the gunslinger has thats any good, you end up with a better gunslinger than the one we have.
Does that mean the alchemist is over powered? Or the Gunslinger is lacking?
Slinger is lacking.
Rixx, I just showed you multiple times, that the abilities arent 'worth' or equal to each other. The alchemist/gunmage I had been playing with, like i said (which went through several evolutions) ended up swapping extracts for deeds. This is because the deeds that are RAW arent worth anything more than that.
I could have say, kept extracts and traded in mutagens. or whatever.
But if you trade extracts for deeds, and mutagens for full bab, bombs for what? the WP gunsmithing and a free broken gun.... eh maybe. but your still left with discoveries and the fact the alch gets way more skill points, do you trade the skill points for HD? I wouldn't. So.... like i said using alchemist as a base class and trading out what the gunslinger has thats any good, you end up with a better gunslinger than the one we have.Does that mean the alchemist is over powered? Or the Gunslinger is lacking?
Slinger is lacking.
So how does the alchemist measure up to the fighter?
All you've proven to me is that you don't understand this game at the mechanical as well as you think you do, and you convince me of that more and more with every post.
Sure, trade this for that, and this for this, and things break and get weird. But you're not supposed to do that. And from how it looks, the motivation behind your design decisions when swapping out class features is arbitrary.
Frankly, if you haven't gotten anything out of what I've said so far, nothing else will convince you. I can't argue this any simpler.
I saw this TV show once, it was talking about some wierd concept called constructive debating.
@Pendagast: Why don`t you post the actual builds you made, and compare the actual specifics where each build is comparatively better/different than the other. I just haven`t seen any specific information in this thread, you jumped right to your conclusions... I`m sure your personal experiment was very convincing in your own mind, but sharing the experiment itself, rather than your conclusions, seems eminently more constructive, don`t you think?
That said, I don`t know how much impact any conclusions you can make will have. PRPG doesn`t include arbitrary class ability swaps, so what you`re discussing is something that isn`t possible in any standard game. The clearest conclusion to make is that Pendagast`s little house-rule experiment isn`t very balanced... And maybe Paizo can take it under advisement NOT to create any archetypes that do this (though again, you never posted exactly how your house-rule Gun Alchemist Variant specifically compares to the Gunslinger, you just jumped right to your conclusion that it out-classes it in unmentionable ways).
Why not?Missing a full BAB for starters.The class doesnt NEED full bab.
If it needs to hit something it has ways of getting in to hit touch AC. It doesn't even get to use it's iterative attacks 'on time' it has to wait, the reloading thing still bogs down its full use of "Full BAB" so it's really a 7/8s BAB class at best, and honestly may average to really only a 3/4... even 3/4 classes like the rogue don't have restrictions on getting off their Iterative like the Gunslinger.
It'd be 'nice' if monks or clerics could get full BAB but they don't 'need' it. Same goes for the gunslinger, if I were to trade something it, it would probably be "full BAB" since, truthfully it really isnt 'full'. I'd argue monk needs the full BAB more than the slinger (he could certainly make better use of it)
Why not?Missing a full BAB for starters.The class doesnt NEED full bab.If it needs to hit something it has ways of getting in to hit touch AC. It doesn't even get to use it's iterative attacks 'on time' it has to wait, the reloading thing still bogs down its full use of "Full BAB" so it's really a 7/8s BAB class at best, and honestly may average to really only a 3/4... even 3/4 classes like the rogue don't have restrictions on getting off their Iterative like the Gunslinger.
It'd be 'nice' if monks or clerics could get full BAB but they don't 'need' it. Same goes for the gunslinger, if I were to trade something it, it would probably be "full BAB" since, truthfully it really isnt 'full'. I'd argue monk needs the full BAB more than the slinger (he could certainly make better use of it)
The monk gets a Full BAB when he flurries (better seeing as he slowly eliminates the two weapon fighting penalties). And there are several ways to make use of a gunslinger's Full BAB; Dead shot, Vital Strike, Rapid reload, guns with multiple barrels, etc.
I saw this TV show once, it was talking about some wierd concept called constructive debating.
@Pendagast: Why don`t you post the actual builds you made, and compare the actual specifics where each build is comparatively better/different than the other. I just haven`t seen any specific information in this thread, you jumped right to your conclusions... I`m sure your personal experiment was very convincing in your own mind, but sharing the experiment itself, rather than your conclusions, seems eminently more constructive, don`t you think?
Most of it was already done on the round 1 threads.
I dont have characters on computer like some people so it's not just copy/paste.
And most of the information boils down to information you all already have in PDF form (ie extracts, deeds etc) the stats that get rolled up are irrelevant, aside from that based on wisdom.
As I said most gunslingers are going to have 1 grit more often than not anyway.
Poorly built gunslingers, maybe. Any 'slinger worth his salt will have at least a +2 wisdom, even in low point buys.
OK Pendagast, but that to me just brings it back to the concept of constructive debate.
You`re basically saying the details don`t matter.
Therefore, you`re presenting your opinion, and arguing back against those who have a different opinion...
I don`t see this going anywhere productive, do you? Really?
Do you think grit/deeds = mutagens, bombs, discoveries and extracts?
alchemist could already make gun powder and had more skills in things like craft to begin with so could already make bullets and powder before they came up with "gunsmithing"
d10 over d8 isnt a big deal, and the full BAB is nerfed on a gunslinger so isn't worth much.
on another point:
OOH a 14 wis on a gunsligner wow he gets a WHOLE point more, well I'd didn't notice that, it just make the whole class worth it right there.
IMHO I think that the only way to fix deeds and what would make them better is to change them into something you pick and have the potency of the Magus' arcana.
You are forgetting that without the gunsmithing feat, you cannot make the ammo for 1/10 of the price. I think you are undervaluing the full BAB. You also did not list the gunslingers gun training and bonus feats...
I still believe very firmly that your methods of testing this hypothesis of yours are objectively wrong. In any case, I'm getting way too frustrated with this, and I've already argued my point the best I can. I've taken a note to cut things out of my life which make me angry, so I'm going to stop trying - I'll leave the rest to more interested people.
I will say that you should have more backing to your claims besides "Does this equal this? Yes/No", or else nobody is going to take you seriously - much less the designers of this game in charge of making changes to the class.
The monk gets a Full BAB when he flurries (better seeing as he slowly eliminates the two weapon fighting penalties). And there are several ways to make use of a gunslinger's Full BAB; Dead shot, Vital Strike, Rapid reload, guns with multiple barrels, etc.Why not?Missing a full BAB for starters.The class doesnt NEED full bab.If it needs to hit something it has ways of getting in to hit touch AC. It doesn't even get to use it's iterative attacks 'on time' it has to wait, the reloading thing still bogs down its full use of "Full BAB" so it's really a 7/8s BAB class at best, and honestly may average to really only a 3/4... even 3/4 classes like the rogue don't have restrictions on getting off their Iterative like the Gunslinger.
It'd be 'nice' if monks or clerics could get full BAB but they don't 'need' it. Same goes for the gunslinger, if I were to trade something it, it would probably be "full BAB" since, truthfully it really isnt 'full'. I'd argue monk needs the full BAB more than the slinger (he could certainly make better use of it)
True the monk eventually overcomes the whole lower BAB thing, which is why i stated he doesnt really 'need' it.
If you're playing with a 'normal' campaign you're not getting access to advanced guns and you just have pepper box, he's still not going to be able to full attack all combat long, at some point, he's got to reload and he's going to fall behind.Dead shot burns through the grit too fast, it's nice and all, but mainly a trick for overcoming DR. There just isn't enough grit to do this often enough.
Vital strike is alright, but the class is already feat starved.
Full BAB just isn't they "key to success" with this class, the attack progression is going to be clunky no matter how you go about it (if your fights last longer than a few rounds)
With revolvers most of that goes away since you can reload the whole pistol in the same time you can reload barrels with metal cartridges and all. But again that isn't the standard ops for the class.
You are forgetting that without the gunsmithing feat, you cannot make the ammo for 1/10 of the price. I think you are undervaluing the full BAB. You also did not list the gunslingers gun training and bonus feats...
Some people are 'stuck' on Full BAB and gravitate to it like the mecca.
I think you are undervaluing things like mutagens or other abilities that can boost a character.The whole ammo for 1/10 the price is sweet, true, but it's not 'necessary' to operate the gun. It's just an economic advantage, and i think it's rather 'odd' the gunslinger can make gunpowder (an alchemical substance to begin with) better than the alchemist, kind of dumb right there.
You are forgetting that without the gunsmithing feat, you cannot make the ammo for 1/10 of the price. I think you are undervaluing the full BAB. You also did not list the gunslingers gun training and bonus feats...Some people are 'stuck' on Full BAB and gravitate to it like the mecca.
I think you are undervaluing things like mutagens or other abilities that can boost a character.The whole ammo for 1/10 the price is sweet, true, but it's not 'necessary' to operate the gun. It's just an economic advantage, and i think it's rather 'odd' the gunslinger can make gunpowder (an alchemical substance to begin with) better than the alchemist, kind of dumb right there.
And gun training and bonus feats? You said the class was feat starved.
IMHO I think that the only way to fix deeds and what would make them better is to change them into something you pick and have the potency of the Magus' arcana.
Potency and choosing, yea..... I've been thinking of what Stephen said with his statement about 'why' you get them 'all'.
I'm starting to lean toward tweaking a few of the deeds (like making pistol whip usable if you have 1 grit and costs 1 grit for knock down, for example) giving deed feats to the gunslinger at certain levels (like deft shootist) OR adding innovations like Elghin had suggested elsewhere.
Right there that one paragraph would about do it I think.
IF the gunslinger is going to "gunsmith" he really should have is own 'discoveries' like the alchemist who has alchemy, the slinger has 'guns' and so should be able to make mods and upgrades.
The 'slinger has room to improve.
And Deft Shootist is really a must have, might as well just give it to them.... things like secret stash as just 'meh' and certainly not worth 'taking' a feat, I'd take it if it was given to me for free....
And gun training and bonus feats? You said the class was feat starved.You are forgetting that without the gunsmithing feat, you cannot make the ammo for 1/10 of the price. I think you are undervaluing the full BAB. You also did not list the gunslingers gun training and bonus feats...Some people are 'stuck' on Full BAB and gravitate to it like the mecca.
I think you are undervaluing things like mutagens or other abilities that can boost a character.The whole ammo for 1/10 the price is sweet, true, but it's not 'necessary' to operate the gun. It's just an economic advantage, and i think it's rather 'odd' the gunslinger can make gunpowder (an alchemical substance to begin with) better than the alchemist, kind of dumb right there.
Gun training got nerfed, unless i read it wrong in round 1. I thought it used to let you do dex plus to damage AND worked like weapon training, but all it really does is let you add that to another kind of gun as it goes up.
The few bonus feats gunslinger gets just isnt enough on it's own.
Id rather have mutagens and discoveries with which to make up that kind of a difference.
The one time +4 to damage (if you have an 18) isnt really alot.
Gunslingers aren't really likely to change their gun fighting style much over their career (especially two weapon fighting ones) so taking up levels with more gun training, which isn't really 'more' is a bit lame.
You say "the few bonus feats the gunslinger gets just isn't enough on it's own", so how is even fewer feats improving it? Sure, mutagens are nice, but it is a once per day short term buff and the one that improves dex lowers wisdom. 5 bonus feats is half (round down) of what the fighter gets. Gun training also lowers the misfire chance increase when misfiring. Also, bombs, grit, guns, you are creating a pretty MAD class.
Forgot something. You say that gun training got nerfed, and the bonus feats aren't enough; but you still left them out of the class comparisons.
You say "the few bonus feats the gunslinger gets just isn't enough on it's own", so how is even fewer feats improving it? Sure, mutagens are nice, but it is a once per day short term buff and the one that improves dex lowers wisdom. 5 bonus feats is half (round down) of what the fighter gets. Gun training also lowers the misfire chance increase when misfiring. Also, bombs, grit, guns, you are creating a pretty MAD class.
Gunslinger isn't MAD?
The point is grit whether you get 3 or 2, it's still just puny, the recharge isn't really worth it, it's either going to happen all the time with some GMS or hardly ever with others. So chasing after 'alot' of grit isn't worth it, so dont put alot of points into wis.
Dex is the stat that is worth it. For the Gunslinger hittng, damage and AC. (although whatever the replacement for medium armor and +1 bravery may well change that,a it's likely a bonus off wis to dex, like the monk.)
my point is the slinger doesnt have access to discoveries, bombs, mutagens etc, so needs the feats to do stuff with, where as other classes have other things as so don't need so many feats.
Ever try making a two weapon fighting ranged class?? It's even tough with all those fighter feats. Neigh impossible with the gunslinger if you think about the other feats he needs as well, that archers or crossbowmen, or even dagger huckers dont need to consider.
Forgot something. You say that gun training got nerfed, and the bonus feats aren't enough; but you still left them out of the class comparisons.
because I didnt consider gun training better than mutagens, for example.
The only thing that the gunslinger 'has' are guns, deeds and grit. Other classes can do other things to make up for lack of feats, the fighter for example gets the feats because he has none of that stuff.
The gunslinger has none of that stuff and get's half the feats, but also has more things to spend them on than the fighter, although putting lightening reload into the class was nice.
Essentially, the gunslinger is a ranged class that needs/wants to get into melee, that's really feat intensive... it's better to just have other things to offset it than the feats. Other ways to increase touch AC range (although i guess a gunslinger could take master craftsman and make his own distant weapon but again...feats), other things to do.
You say "the few bonus feats the gunslinger gets just isn't enough on it's own", so how is even fewer feats improving it? Sure, mutagens are nice, but it is a once per day short term buff and the one that improves dex lowers wisdom. 5 bonus feats is half (round down) of what the fighter gets. Gun training also lowers the misfire chance increase when misfiring. Also, bombs, grit, guns, you are creating a pretty MAD class.Gunslinger isn't MAD?
The point is grit whether you get 3 or 2, it's still just puny, the recharge isn't really worth it, it's either going to happen all the time with some GMS or hardly ever with others. So chasing after 'alot' of grit isn't worth it, so dont put alot of points into wis.
Dex is the stat that is worth it. For the Gunslinger hittng, damage and AC. (although whatever the replacement for medium armor and +1 bravery may well change that,a it's likely a bonus off wis to dex, like the monk.)
my point is the slinger doesnt have access to discoveries, bombs, mutagens etc, so needs the feats to do stuff with, where as other classes have other things as so don't need so many feats.
Ever try making a two weapon fighting ranged class?? It's even tough with all those fighter feats. Neigh impossible with the gunslinger if you think about the other feats he needs as well, that archers or crossbowmen, or even dagger huckers dont need to consider.
So now we are getting to the bottom of things. You want the double gun slinger and it doesn't work that well. It shouldn't. Renaissance fire arms weren't meant for two weapon fighting. The class is meant for one good shot per round. Whether through vital strike, deadly shot, or some other method.
The alchemist does not have access to grit, bonus feats, an ability to improve his all-day damage, a d10 hit die, or a full base attack (yes, I went there again, you may not see it as much, but it is worth a lot).And the gunslinger is not MAD, less so than the bow user, anyways. Dex is to hit, damage, AC. Con cna help, but you are a ranged character with a d10 hit die. Str is not needed unless you intend to go into melee. Int and cha can be nice, but far from required. Wis, as you have stated (but I do not entirely agree with) is useful but can be kept low. This class has 2 stats in the need category, Dex and Wis. The gunslinger is the only one to add dex to damage in pathfinder rules, not the archer (needs str) and not the crossbowman (they are screwed from the get go) and not the thrown weapon fighter (possibly more screwed than the crossbowman).
Forgot something. You say that gun training got nerfed, and the bonus feats aren't enough; but you still left them out of the class comparisons.because I didnt consider gun training better than mutagens, for example.
The only thing that the gunslinger 'has' are guns, deeds and grit. Other classes can do other things to make up for lack of feats, the fighter for example gets the feats because he has none of that stuff.
The gunslinger has none of that stuff and get's half the feats, but also has more things to spend them on than the fighter, although putting lightening reload into the class was nice.Essentially, the gunslinger is a ranged class that needs/wants to get into melee, that's really feat intensive... it's better to just have other things to offset it than the feats. Other ways to increase touch AC range (although i guess a gunslinger could take master craftsman and make his own distant weapon but again...feats), other things to do.
I fail to see how the gunslinger is a ranged class wanting to get into melee. The musket has a range increment of 40 ft. distance is a +1 bonus, you do not have to make it yourself, anyone in your party with the right feats can and you can buy it. And thanks to the full BAB, you can afford to go beyond the first range increment (better than the archer, the need more stats).
Finally, you cannot leave something out because you felt it was less. Multiple small things add up to bigger things. Grit, deeds, gun smithing, full bab, bonus feats, gun training, brabery (very small thing), free gun. All of these bonuses add together to form a cohesive whole, The Gun Slinger.