The Gunslinger still isn't very mobile

[Mok]

Just looking things over some more this morning before I get to work.

One thing that I was hoping to see in this iteration (there is a lot that I like though) is that the Gunslinger is still a very stationary when you get down to the nitty gritty of the mechanics.

First, if you want to have a fire rate that approaches that of a light crossbow, you need to remain stationary and spend grit, and that's only with a pistol.

Second, if you want to avoid AoO and still fire your pistol you need to make 5-foot steps.

So basically, the Gunslinger right now is "mobile" in that he generally has such a slow rate of fire that it frees up some of his move actions to walk around the battle and avoid melee.

The one shining light in all of this is the Acrobatics class skill, which does allow tumbling. And with a high Dex he can pull some of this off, assuming light armor or fancy expensive mithral armor.

Now, he does have class features that give the idea that the Gunslinger ought to be mobile, but there are problems with them:

Gunslinger's Dodge Deed: It's situational, needs to be triggered, and provokes AoO, and you have to spend a grit just to do it.

Evasive Deed: You get Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge, but you have to be 15th level, which automatically throws it out of the majority of campaigns, including PFS. This one really does make me scratch my head. Why it can't be rolled out a low level just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, particularly when the actual combat potential of the Gunslinger at low levels isn't stellar.

Deft Shootist Feat: It's an inferior version of Point Blank Master that fighter's can get and you have to spend grit just to use it. Further, you have to pick up Dodge and Mobility to just get this feat, two feats that a Gunslinger simply can't afford to take because he needs to grab as many ranged combat feats as possible. Lastly, on a thematic level, it seems far more plausible that someone would be able to utilize a gun in a melee fight than a bow. I'm not saying Fighters shouldn't get nice things, but the Gunslinger ought to have an advantage when it comes to ranged attacks in a melee fight.

Leaping Shot Feat: This starts to get a bit interesting. It's shot on the run, mixed with a two-weapon full attack, and resolved with a acrobatics check. BUT you're making a jump check. If you've ever looked at the DCs on jump checks... man, are they hard to do. You have to be super-duper human to be able to make any kind of jump check that resembles normal movement. So while it looks like a shot on the run, it's more like you're needing to roll high to move 10'. Plus, tack on once again the Dodge and Mobility, and your back to the problem of Deft Shootist, where you're investing heavily into a feat that really detracts from your ability to have any competency to shoot well. It makes far far more sense to just go and get the Shot on the Run feat. Lastly, the feat also assumes you've got two-weapon fighting, which again is putting you in this deep dark tar pit of needed feats that the Gunslinger simply can't get in any reasonable time frame.

Overall, the mobility and skirmisher idea that this class evokes isn't holding up in the actual mechanics. The places where it tries to emphasize it are essentially shriveling up on the vine, because it's either too high of a level or the feats themselves simply don't fit within the demands of what the class needs.

Some fixes:

Level 1 - Make a Deed where if the Gunslinger has grit then he's got the Shot on the Run feat. Automatically he's moving, shooting, and moving. The player gets the satisfaction of being able to do something cool right from the start and immediately emphasizes the skirmisher flavor of the class.

Give Evasion, but make it grit dependent. Rogues and Monks get it at low level. It fits with the overall system. Sure, they don't get Full BAB, but the trade off is the grit. It also sends the message once again, "this is a skirmisher class" to the player.

Level 3 - Make Deft Shootist a straight out deed. Spend a grit and you can fire with AoO. It feels right. "This dude's got grit! He can wade into battle, shove the pistol in your face and fire!" Once again, the player feels rewarded by the system, and the trade off is reasonable, unlike the feat which is just so costly as not to be worthwhile.

Uncanny and Improved Uncanny Dodge - These things can be "deeded" just fine, and at low levels to boot. Just have the grit be needed or need to be spent and that's the fair trade off.

I've got to sign off for the day, but I know there is a way to make this class shine, and I think a part of it is going to be showing how a class can move around and help support the party in a fun way.

I want to have fun right from level 1 with this class. The guns are going to be a headache due to how the rules are written, so build around those rules to make their use interesting and dynamic. Part of that is going to be showing how you can zip around the battlefield and "deliver the package" at just the right time. The class really ought to avoid the stand-in-place-and-full-attack routine that almost everything else in the game is built on.

[Karjak Rustscale]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying for a Pistol Gunslinger, but Rifle Gunslingers just give me the Vibe of them laying down shooting at the dragon, and refusing to move until the dragon stops doing so.

that's weirdly worded but I mean that the Rifleman doesn't retreat, and will hold his spot in the line until informed that he can move again.

so for a Pistol weilder, yeah a lot of your Points are very much what the class comes off as, for a Rifle weilder (and by rifle I just mean "two-handed non-scatter weapon") it just has a Different Vibe, one that is distinctly NOT skirmisher.

I dunno, maybe roll the differences into Gun training, you choose a weapon and the class builds from there, like the Signature Gun thing people are kind of talking about as a way to give the class more customization.

[MultiClassClown]

Karjak Rustscale wrote:

I agree with a lot of what you're saying for a Pistol Gunslinger, but Rifle Gunslingers just give me the Vibe of them laying down shooting at the dragon, and refusing to move until the dragon stops doing so.

that's weirdly worded...

Actually, it was worded very well, great imagery.

[Realmwalker]

Mok wrote:

Just looking things over some more this morning before I get to work.

One thing that I was hoping to see in this iteration (there is a lot that I like though) is that the Gunslinger is still a very stationary when you get down to the nitty gritty of the mechanics.

First, if you want to have a fire rate that approaches that of a light crossbow, you need to remain stationary and spend grit, and that's only with a pistol.

Second, if you want to avoid AoO and still fire your pistol you need to make 5-foot steps.

So basically, the Gunslinger right now is "mobile" in that he generally has such a slow rate of fire that it frees up some of his move actions to walk around the battle and avoid melee.

The one shining light in all of this is the Acrobatics class skill, which does allow tumbling. And with a high Dex he can pull some of this off, assuming light armor or fancy expensive mithral armor.

Now, he does have class features that give the idea that the Gunslinger ought to be mobile, but there are problems with them:

Gunslinger's Dodge Deed: It's situational, needs to be triggered, and provokes AoO, and you have to spend a grit just to do it.

Evasive Deed: You get Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge, but you have to be 15th level, which automatically throws it out of the majority of campaigns, including PFS. This one really does make me scratch my head. Why it can't be rolled out a low level just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, particularly when the actual combat potential of the Gunslinger at low levels isn't stellar.

Deft Shootist Feat: It's an inferior version of Point Blank Master that fighter's can get and you have to spend grit just to use it. Further, you have to pick up Dodge and Mobility to just get this feat, two feats that a Gunslinger simply can't afford to take because he needs to grab as many ranged combat feats as possible. Lastly, on a thematic level, it seems far more plausible that someone would be able to utilize a gun in a melee fight than a bow. I'm not saying...

Deft Shootist only requires you have Grit you don't spend Grit to use it.

['Rixx]

Something that lets you move while reloading would really help with this.

[Blackvial]

Gunslinger
You are so skilled with firearms that you can fire one without letting down your guard.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +4, Weapon Focus (any firearm), proficiency with any firearm.

Benefit: When you attack with a firearm, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Normal: Attacking with any kind of ranged weapon in a threatened square provokes attacks of opportunity.

from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting page 59. this should help with avoiding AoO

to speed up your reload time get rapid shot and use paper cartridges

[Karjak Rustscale]

Blackvial wrote:

Gunslinger

You are so skilled with firearms that you can fire one without letting down your guard.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +4, Weapon Focus (any firearm), proficiency with any firearm.

Benefit: When you attack with a firearm, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Normal: Attacking with any kind of ranged weapon in a threatened square provokes attacks of opportunity.

from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting page 59. this should help with avoiding AoO

to speed up your reload time get rapid shot and use paper cartridges

there's a Grit based feat that does that, when you shoot or reload you don't provoke.

[Ravingdork]

Wield a double barreled pistol if you want mobility. It let's you fire both barrels, making two attack rolls, as part of a single action. So you can move and get two attacks off (with limitations).

[Blackvial]

Karjak Rustscale wrote:

Blackvial wrote:

Gunslinger

You are so skilled with firearms that you can fire one without letting down your guard.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +4, Weapon Focus (any firearm), proficiency with any firearm.

Benefit: When you attack with a firearm, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Normal: Attacking with any kind of ranged weapon in a threatened square provokes attacks of opportunity.

from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting page 59. this should help with avoiding AoO

to speed up your reload time get rapid shot and use paper cartridges

there's a Grit based feat that does that, when you shoot or reload you don't provoke.

true but grit is fairly limited and the way to regenerate it kind of sucks

[Karjak Rustscale]

Blackvial wrote:

Karjak Rustscale wrote:

Blackvial wrote:

Gunslinger

You are so skilled with firearms that you can fire one without letting down your guard.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +4, Weapon Focus (any firearm), proficiency with any firearm.

Benefit: When you attack with a firearm, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Normal: Attacking with any kind of ranged weapon in a threatened square provokes attacks of opportunity.

from the Pathfinder Campaign Setting page 59. this should help with avoiding AoO

to speed up your reload time get rapid shot and use paper cartridges

there's a Grit based feat that does that, when you shoot or reload you don't provoke.

true but grit is fairly limited and the way to regenerate it kind of sucks

true as well, but the point was more to avoid the AoOs from Reloading and Firing in Melee, which the Above feat only half does, and the grit feat does do.

I'm thinking 1/2+WIS looks like the golden number for grit points.

or making Wisdom a superior Stat so that you have mroe than 2-3 points in it, though if all the saves are based off Wisdom, maybe the grit problem will solve itself?