Don't get me wrong. I like this class. There are some really cool high-level abilities, but it ain't perfect. I look at the gunslinger, and my first thought at first level is simply this: "What do I do?"
The obvious answer should be "shoot your gun." But is that it? The gunslinger needs something to do, I think. It needs a "thing;" a signature ability that really says "GUNSLINGER!"
The Barbarian Rages
The Bard Performs
The Cleric Channels
The Druid has an Animal Companion (sometimes)
The Fighter has a Bajillion Weapons and two Bajillion ways to use them.
The Monk has Seizures and Sometimes Hits Something.
The Paladin Smites
The Ranger Favors Enemies
The Rogue Sneak Attacks
The Sorcerer uses his Bloodline
The Wizard F#4%s Sh!t Up Wit Magic, Yo.
The Alchemist Blows Sh!t up and Grows Muscular Tumors.
The Cavalier Challenges...and Has a Horse.
The Inquisitor Judges.
The Oracle is Blind (Also Mysteries and Spells and whatnot).
The Summoner F#$%s Sh!t Up Wit His Eidolon, Yo.
The Witch Hexes.
This is all at first level.
The Gunslinger...has a gun? And is...gritty? Oh! He can...dodge? And also...not explode, I guess. And I guess he can shoot his gun. And craft bullets. And...huh. For all that stuff he gets at first level, he doesn't get much, does he?
He needs something cool to DO at 1st level. Right now, he just shoots, and prevents himself from exploding. What else can he do?
Off the top of my head:
-An ability that deals extra (d6?) damage if you spend a full-round action aiming.
-A hyper-aware trance where he can make impossibly accurate shots and dodge/deflect incoming attacks, similar to rage (wis/grit to attack/damage/AC?).
-The ability to maneuver around the battlefield, firing pistols while rolling between enemies.
-Trick Shots that allow him to perform Combat Maneuvers with guns.
-The Targeting ability (nerfed for low levels).
He's just begging for something to do at 1st level, I think, besides shoot, reload, and drop prone.
-The Beast
Don't get me wrong. I like this class. There are some really cool high-level abilities, but it ain't perfect. I look at the gunslinger, and my first thought at first level is simply this: "What do I do?"
The obvious answer should be "shoot your gun." But is that it? The gunslinger needs something to do, I think. It needs a "thing;" a signature ability that really says "GUNSLINGER!"
The Barbarian Rages
The Bard Performs
The Cleric Channels
The Druid has an Animal Companion (sometimes)
The Fighter has a Bajillion Weapons and two Bajillion ways to use them.
The Monk has Seizures and Sometimes Hits Something.
The Paladin Smites
The Ranger Favors Enemies
The Rogue Sneak Attacks
The Sorcerer uses his Bloodline
The Wizard F#4%s Sh!t Up Wit Magic, Yo.
The Alchemist Blows Sh!t up and Grows Muscular Tumors.
The Cavalier Challenges...and Has a Horse.
The Inquisitor Judges.
The Oracle is Blind (Also Mysteries and Spells and whatnot).
The Summoner F#$%s Sh!t Up Wit His Eidolon, Yo.
The Witch Hexes.This is all at first level.
The Gunslinger...has a gun? And is...gritty? Oh! He can...dodge? And also...not explode, I guess. And I guess he can shoot his gun. And craft bullets. And...huh. For all that stuff he gets at first level, he doesn't get much, does he?
He needs something cool to DO at 1st level. Right now, he just shoots, and prevents himself from exploding. What else can he do?
Off the top of my head:
-An ability that deals extra (d6?) damage if you spend a full-round action aiming.
-A hyper-aware trance where he can make impossibly accurate shots and dodge/deflect incoming attacks, similar to rage (wis/grit to attack/damage/AC?).
-The ability to maneuver around the battlefield, firing pistols while rolling between enemies.
-Trick Shots that allow him to perform Combat Maneuvers with guns.
-The Targeting ability (nerfed for low levels).He's just begging for something to do at 1st level, I think, besides shoot, reload, and drop prone.
-The Beast
THIS Is actually a pretty good point, Deeds are supposed to be their thing, but the Unique ones don't kick in till 3rd level. I guess you could say his thing is, I get my Gun at first level for free.
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Don't get me wrong. I like this class. There are some really cool high-level abilities, but it ain't perfect. I look at the gunslinger, and my first thought at first level is simply this: "What do I do?"
The obvious answer should be "shoot your gun." But is that it? The gunslinger needs something to do, I think. It needs a "thing;" a signature ability that really says "GUNSLINGER!"
The Barbarian Rages
The Bard Performs
The Cleric Channels
The Druid has an Animal Companion (sometimes)
The Fighter has a Bajillion Weapons and two Bajillion ways to use them.
The Monk has Seizures and Sometimes Hits Something.
The Paladin Smites
The Ranger Favors Enemies
The Rogue Sneak Attacks
The Sorcerer uses his Bloodline
The Wizard F#4%s Sh!t Up Wit Magic, Yo.
The Alchemist Blows Sh!t up and Grows Muscular Tumors.
The Cavalier Challenges...and Has a Horse.
The Inquisitor Judges.
The Oracle is Blind (Also Mysteries and Spells and whatnot).
The Summoner F#$%s Sh!t Up Wit His Eidolon, Yo.
The Witch Hexes.This is all at first level.
The Gunslinger...has a gun? And is...gritty? Oh! He can...dodge? And also...not explode, I guess. And I guess he can shoot his gun. And craft bullets. And...huh. For all that stuff he gets at first level, he doesn't get much, does he?
He needs something cool to DO at 1st level. Right now, he just shoots, and prevents himself from exploding. What else can he do?
Off the top of my head:
-An ability that deals extra (d6?) damage if you spend a full-round action aiming.
-A hyper-aware trance where he can make impossibly accurate shots and dodge/deflect incoming attacks, similar to rage (wis/grit to attack/damage/AC?).
-The ability to maneuver around the battlefield, firing pistols while rolling between enemies.
-Trick Shots that allow him to perform Combat Maneuvers with guns.
-The Targeting ability (nerfed for low levels).He's just begging for something to do at 1st level, I think, besides shoot, reload, and drop prone.
-The Beast
This is why I have been saying certain gun features need to be gunslinger exclusive.
I guess you could say his thing is, I get my Gun at first level for free.
Which is, in the words of Scott Pilgrim just before he versed the world, "Booooooring..."
The same ability could be swapped onto any class, really, and wouldn't change much. "_____ gets crappy version of _____ for free" isn't a huge deal and pretty much fits into any given class idea. Hell, the wizard's crappy _____ is actually not crappy at all! It's freakin' masterwork!
NOTE: Yes, I understand the purpose of a crappy gun is not to [expletive deleted] the economy of a world and an adventuring party up the [hot dogs!] and to not give a party more [watermelon!] than they know what to do with.
-The Beast
I wouldnt mind touch AC being gunslinger exclusive, it would remove the "rich baron hires 1st level commoners by the city load to mow down giants, dragons and the tarrasque" argument I grow so tired of.
I wouldnt mind touch AC being gunslinger exclusive, it would remove the "rich baron hires 1st level commoners by the city load to mow down giants, dragons and the tarrasque" argument I grow so tired of.
Nothing we can do to change that, unfortunately. It would have been cool, but would have called for guns to actually have some modicum of RANGE.
Which would have made the ability even cooler.
But alas, dear Yorick, we are but stuck with the rules with which the great gods of Paizo hath bestowed upon us, and must maketh the best of it.
-The Beast
I wouldnt mind touch AC being gunslinger exclusive, it would remove the "rich baron hires 1st level commoners by the city load to mow down giants, dragons and the tarrasque" argument I grow so tired of.
+1
I guess you could say his thing is, I get my Gun at first level for free.Which is, in the words of Scott Pilgrim just before he versed the world, "Booooooring..."
The same ability could be swapped onto any class, really, and wouldn't change much. "_____ gets crappy version of _____ for free" isn't a huge deal and pretty much fits into any given class idea. Hell, the wizard's crappy _____ is actually not crappy at all! It's freakin' masterwork!
NOTE: Yes, I understand the purpose of a crappy gun is not to [expletive deleted] the economy of a world and an adventuring party up the [hot dogs!] and to not give a party more [watermelon!] than they know what to do with.
-The Beast
Im not saying that it doesn't suck, but the gun is only crappy when used by other people.
Now A little more on topic, I don't wanna derail your thread. They should get a Deed that Scales with level that is the core of the class.
I guess you could say his thing is, I get my Gun at first level for free.Which is, in the words of Scott Pilgrim just before he versed the world, "Booooooring..."
The same ability could be swapped onto any class, really, and wouldn't change much. "_____ gets crappy version of _____ for free" isn't a huge deal and pretty much fits into any given class idea. Hell, the wizard's crappy _____ is actually not crappy at all! It's freakin' masterwork!
NOTE: Yes, I understand the purpose of a crappy gun is not to [expletive deleted] the economy of a world and an adventuring party up the [hot dogs!] and to not give a party more [watermelon!] than they know what to do with.
-The Beast
Im not saying that it doesn't suck, but the gun is only crappy when used by other people.
Now A little more on topic, I don't wanna derail your thread. They should get a Deed that Scales with level that is the core of the class.
I totally agree. That or something Rage-like. I really like the idea of a super-trance for some reason.
Whatever it is, it should be ACTIVE. That's the big deal for me. Make it something the player actually does as opposed to something that just comes with the class. An ability is always cooler when you're choosing to do it than if it's passive.
...HOLY CRAP!!!
Kill Bill music just started playing on Pandora. MUST. MAKE. SAMURAI GUNSLINGER!!!!!!!
Be back tomorrow.
-The Beast
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I wouldnt mind touch AC being gunslinger exclusive, it would remove the "rich baron hires 1st level commoners by the city load to mow down giants, dragons and the tarrasque" argument I grow so tired of.Nothing we can do to change that, unfortunately. It would have been cool, but would have called for guns to actually have some modicum of RANGE.
Which would have made the ability even cooler.
But alas, dear Yorick, we are but stuck with the rules with which the great gods of Paizo hath bestowed upon us, and must maketh the best of it.
-The Beast
Well...this is a play test...
I say guns in the hands of gunslingers get the features as part of the class, at appropriate levels.
The gunslingers "thing" is the ability to use guns effectively much in the same way the monk's thing it unarmed combat. Others can do it, but they aren't monks.
Others can point and pull, but only a gunslinger gets touch/rapid reload/etc...
OH! I totally forgot!
The Magus F@#$s Sh!t Up Wit F@#$in' Everyt'in, Yo (translation for those who don't speak Jive: Spell Combat).
-The Beast
Something like a "deed chain"
When you watch the 'epic' gun battle the gunslinger in question is "on fire", he's doing a chain of things that keeping building on the last thing to the point of killing all the bad guys and causing the earth to reverse it rotation.
Some kind of deed that scales with level and renews the grit point it just spent, so as long as you stay in the action and succeed at doing it, you can keep going, like a mortal combat series of attacks... the next thing builds on the last thing.
I'm still working on something in the back of my brain, it's just hasnt emerged yet.
I guess you could say his thing is, I get my Gun at first level for free.Which is, in the words of Scott Pilgrim just before he versed the world, "Booooooring..."
The same ability could be swapped onto any class, really, and wouldn't change much. "_____ gets crappy version of _____ for free" isn't a huge deal and pretty much fits into any given class idea. Hell, the wizard's crappy _____ is actually not crappy at all! It's freakin' masterwork!
NOTE: Yes, I understand the purpose of a crappy gun is not to [expletive deleted] the economy of a world and an adventuring party up the [hot dogs!] and to not give a party more [watermelon!] than they know what to do with.
-The Beast
Im not saying that it doesn't suck, but the gun is only crappy when used by other people.
Now A little more on topic, I don't wanna derail your thread. They should get a Deed that Scales with level that is the core of the class.
I totally agree. That or something Rage-like. I really like the idea of a super-trance for some reason.
Whatever it is, it should be ACTIVE. That's the big deal for me. Make it something the player actually does as opposed to something that just comes with the class. An ability is always cooler when you're choosing to do it than if it's passive.
...HOLY CRAP!!!
Kill Bill music just started playing on Pandora. MUST. MAKE. SAMURAI GUNSLINGER!!!!!!!
Be back tomorrow.
-The Beast
Maybe a bullet time style trance thing, get an extra attack, or somthing each round for so many rounds per day type thing?
I wouldnt mind touch AC being gunslinger exclusive, it would remove the "rich baron hires 1st level commoners by the city load to mow down giants, dragons and the tarrasque" argument I grow so tired of.Nothing we can do to change that, unfortunately. It would have been cool, but would have called for guns to actually have some modicum of RANGE.
Which would have made the ability even cooler.
But alas, dear Yorick, we are but stuck with the rules with which the great gods of Paizo hath bestowed upon us, and must maketh the best of it.
-The Beast
Well...this is a play test...
I say guns in the hands of gunslingers get the features as part of the class, at appropriate levels.
The gunslingers "thing" is the ability to use guns effectively much in the same way the monk's thing it unarmed combat. Others can do it, but they aren't monks.
Others can point and pull, but only a gunslinger gets touch/rapid reload/etc...
Would this be a bad time to mention the INSANE power gap between an unarmed monk and an unarmed fighter? That it leans heavily in the fighter's favor?
It's probably a bad time.
[/derail]
Though I absolutely agree about gunslingers using guns more effectively than other classes. And as it stands, they do that. Pretty well, I might add.
But they don't have anything really interesting to do until 7th level, and that bugs me.
-The Beast
Something like a "deed chain"
When you watch the 'epic' gun battle the gunslinger in question is "on fire", he's doing a chain of things that keeping building on the last thing to the point of killing all the bad guys and causing the earth to reverse it rotation.
Some kind of deed that scales with level and renews the grit point it just spent, so as long as you stay in the action and succeed at doing it, you can keep going, like a mortal combat series of attacks... the next thing builds on the last thing.
I'm still working on something in the back of my brain, it's just hasnt emerged yet.
Doug Hammer piano music now. No more samurai gunslinger. I'm back.
I believe that Ultimate Combat is introducing feats that work the same way, so it wouldn't be out of the question for a series of deeds that work this way.
Cool idea.
-The Beast
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Would this be a bad time to mention the INSANE power gap between an unarmed monk and an unarmed fighter? That it leans heavily in the fighter's favor?
It's probably a bad time.
[/derail]
Sure, when you can show me the fighter that can dimension door, can heal himself, has all good saves, is immune to disease, doesn't need armor, moves at double speed....
[/derail]
Would this be a bad time to mention the INSANE power gap between an unarmed monk and an unarmed fighter? That it leans heavily in the fighter's favor?
It's probably a bad time.
[/derail]
Sure, when you can show me the fighter that can dimension door, can heal himself, has all good saves, is immune to disease, doesn't need armor, moves at double speed....
[/derail]
[derail]
You only made the claim as to the monk's unarmed prowess. I was only claiming that the unarmed fighter far surpasses the unarmed monk in that aspect.
As far as special abilities go, yeah, the Monk wins. But he can't deal damage for crap.
[/derail]
-The Beast
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Would this be a bad time to mention the INSANE power gap between an unarmed monk and an unarmed fighter? That it leans heavily in the fighter's favor?
It's probably a bad time.
[/derail]
Sure, when you can show me the fighter that can dimension door, can heal himself, has all good saves, is immune to disease, doesn't need armor, moves at double speed....
[/derail]
[derail]
You only made the claim as to the monk's unarmed prowess. I was only claiming that the unarmed fighter far surpasses the unarmed monk in that aspect.
As far as special abilities go, yeah, the Monk wins. But he can't deal damage for crap.
[/derail]
-The Beast
[derail]
I'm not challenging the strawman you build, I'm challenging the game as played.
[/derail]
What you said
It was thrown around in the previous playtest, but they could put in some type of feat chain dependant upon combat style or choice of firearm type. A chain for blunderbuss (scatter/area type combat), pistols (melee/short-ranged, close-quater style), and musket (long-range, sharpshooter style). Have these replace the Bravery feature, and put a "Brave" type feature or lower level deed set at 2nd that might include a deed that adds the gunslinger's current grit to her Will saves as long as she has grit. May as well work with the structure of the class as is, 'cause they won't be doing a complete rewrite.
OH! I totally forgot!
The Magus F@#$s Sh!t Up Wit F@#$in' Everyt'in, Yo (translation for those who don't speak Jive: Spell Combat).
-The Beast
I speak Jive. ;-)
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I think the gunslinger has a thing already, which is to be bat-s*** crazy. For the new play test, making Daring Act an optional rule seems to me to be a bad step, but what I see from the class is a "Holy crap, did you just see that guy jump onto an orc and use him as a sled down a hill to shoot that ogre in the face?!" style. Yeah, maybe a fighter could do the same thing, but the gunslinger makes a life of doing acts that would kill anyone else.
Essentially, maybe the mechanics lack a little bit of pizazz, but the class itself has a feel.
The Gunslinger Dares
.
..
...
....
.....
'Bullet Time?'
Side-ways leaping, guns-akimbo Max Payne/John Wu-esque straffing?
O_o
Which is, in the words of Scott Pilgrim just before he versed the world, "Booooooring..."The same ability could be swapped onto any class, really, and wouldn't change much. "Steven gets crappy version of ice cream for free" isn't a huge deal and pretty much fits into any given class idea. Hell, the wizard's crappy Snowman is actually not crappy at all! It's freakin' masterwork!
-The Beast
OOoo! A mad-lib!
Ah loves me dem Mad-libs.anyways, I agree, the Gunslinger does Lack the Pizzaz that other classes get to make them stand out, probably because it originally wasn't really supposed to, being a variant of a Core class and all.
but now, i can see the Grit pool being Limited like a Monk's Ki pool at 1/2 Gunslinger level + Wisdom mod, so they get more than they have now, and get better at using Grit as they level, but don't have as much of an energy source as other energy source-y classes, made up for the fact that they hit touch at the first range increment, and staying within 20-40 feet isn't too difficult, with the option of going to 40-80 for a grit point, plus they regenerate Grit throughout the day.
also, they should get improved Bull rush and Exploitive Maneuver (from that halfling book) for free as class skills just for that Orc-sled-to-shoot-a-giant thing.
p.s.: it doesn't let me underline apparently =(
Well so far we have not had one Iconic display anything like hermaphroditism, klinefelter syndrome, or a third sex so to speak and I say it is about time!
-Sarcasm
now I want an orc sled.
But I can't find one in the core rules, how much gp does it cost?
I like the idea of a super-trance thingy. Maybe something like
The gunslinger has super focus on enemies and ignores other things like spells and melee attacks. He gets a bonus on attack or damage rolls but takes minuses to defense against everything else except his focus target. Something along the lines of the ranger's quarry. Call it Gunslinger's Focus.
The gunslinger definitely has to be daring! I think everyone should watch Shoot 'Em Up and then report back! Because when I think of a gunslinger, my mind goes right towards that movie.
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The gunslinger definitely has to be daring! I think everyone should watch Shoot 'Em Up and then report back! Because when I think of a gunslinger, my mind goes right towards that movie.
I have to agree with you on this. That movie was amazing, and the gunslinger would be a great interpretation of that.
Giving them the Trick Shot ability like the Archer Variant for fighter would certainly spice up the character but would that really be vibrant enough? No, what the gunslinger needs is the ability to twirl their firearms, they need to be able to add their Dex or Gunslinger level to intimidate and/or perform and do the Ocelot spinning pistol.
Mechanics aside, I think the Gunslinger needs a concept that's deeper than "fighter, but with a gun".
Rangers, barbarians and paladins all have concepts that set them apart from fighters. Something that gives them a reason to exist.
The Gunslinger, from my readings of the playtest document, doesn't really. This is probably a holdover from the Gunslinger being a fighter variant. 'Just' being a specialized fighter was fine in that case.
But if the Gunslinger wants to be an actual new class, it needs some kind of justification beyond game mechanics.
IMHO!
just to toss it out there, I've been fiddlin' with the slinger for an upcoming game, but one of the changes I made was an ability called Devastating Shot, for now.
Gained at 1st level and going by the fact that that misfires exist which seem to add an element of luck to firearms, this deed turns that fortune around in favor of the gunslinger. Before making an attack roll a gunslinger may spend 1 grit point to reroll any one damage die that rolls its maximum result, and adds that new result to the first roll to determine damage. They may only reroll in this manner once per die. (I've upped the damage of all firearms, as they are underwhelmingly exciting, just used the figures for firearms out of D20 Modern) ((so a pistol does 2d6, thus a gunslinger could spend up to 2 grit points to have a chance of rerolling both of those dice should they both come up sixes))
At 10th Level, they may reroll a single dice up to twice when using this ability. And at 20th, the gunslinger may reroll an unlimited amount of times, as long as the die continues to roll its maximum result.
I've also increased the grit to 1/2 level + Wis. Mod and changed how it is lost and gained. A gunslinger no longer gains it from critical threats, but only through downing a baddie or daring acts, but now they can also lose grit by becoming shaken, frightened or panicked or becoming severly wounded.
oh any hi, long time lurker, first time poster.
What I'm doing (I'm essentially re-writing the class, but I think this works as a quick fix), is I've given grit a standard ability for just spending it, having also increased its pool to 1/2 level + wis (no recovery system).
Grit: She can spend 1 grit point to focus her mind, in which the world almost seems to slow down around her, allowing pin-point accuracy with her attacks and the ability to foresee and dodge attacks. She gains a bonus on attacks and a dodge bonus to armor class equal to her wisdom bonus for 1 minute.
I'm going to playtest it tonight.
-The Beast