Can a brilliant energy weapon bypass a Cube of Force? And can a character with that weapon attack enemies (provided he can see them) inside of a fortress shield [APG page 286]?
Can a brilliant energy weapon bypass a Cube of Force? And can a character with that weapon attack enemies (provided he can see them) inside of a fortress shield [APG page 286]?
See no reason it wouldn't bypass the cube. It's light. The cube obviously doesn't stop light, or you would be blind inside it. So yep, it should bypass. This also makes sense, as any brilliant energy weapon will be at minimum a +5 equivalent.
Not sure on the fortress shield, don't have my APG wtih me. However, if I remember correctly, it's just a nasty tower shield, so yes, as the brilliant energy weapon ignores armor and shield bonuses.
Slightly humourous related question.
Would a monk wearing an amulet of mighty fists (brilliant energy) fall through the planet as his whole body counts as the weapon? :P
I can't remember citations but I'm pretty certain that brilliant energy weapons do not negate force effects like walls of force (which the cube of force creates) because force effects are not matter.
Ok,
Let me modify my own post above.
The cube might stop the brilliant energy weapon, might not.
It depends on how many charges you expended.
Less than 4 charges, no. Four or more charges, yes.
Until it excludes magic, it doesn't stop the brilliant energy weapon. It's not gaseous, not living matter, not non-living matter.
Considering that I'm expending 2 charges of the cube:
Is the cube being sormontable by the brilliant energy weapon because the walls of force are not made of matter (they are invocation[force], not conjuration(creation)) or because of the meaning of this A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, that states that are made of light?
So, would the cube of force with 2 charges spent block the brilliant energy weapon because the latter is still composed of a very small part of matter or would not block the same weapon 'cause its significant part is made of light?
I don't really understand the definition of significant portion, so I'll appreciate to know what common sense dictates, thanks for helping
Considering that I'm expending 2 charges of the cube:
Is the cube being sormontable by the brilliant energy weapon because the walls of force are not made of matter (they are invocation[force], not conjuration(creation)) or because of the meaning of this A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, that states that are made of light?
So, would the cube of force with 2 charges spent block the brilliant energy weapon because the latter is still composed of a very small part of matter or would not block the same weapon 'cause its significant part is made of light?I don't really understand the definition of significant portion, so I'll appreciate to know what common sense dictates, thanks for helping
Brilliant Energy bypasses armor because it is no longer physical. Check? If it was physical, armor would stop it. Instead, it just goes right through the armor. That makes it magical energy.
Cube doesn't stop magical energy unless 4 or more charges are expended.
EDIT : Note, it's untyped magic energy, similar to a warlock's eldritch blast.
I don't really understand the definition of significant portion, so I'll appreciate to know what common sense dictates, thanks for helping
"Significant portion" is referring to the "business end" of the weapon -- the head of a bludgeoning weapon, the blade part of a bladed weapon, etc. The part/end of the weapon that you hold onto doesn't turn into energy.
There are difficult corner cases like nunchucks, shuriken, or boomerangs -- but for most weapons it works pretty well.
Cube doesn't stop magical energy unless 4 or more charges are expended.
If you assume:
"Significant portion" is referring to the "business end" of the weapon -- the head of a bludgeoning weapon, the blade part of a bladed weapon, etc. The part/end of the weapon that you hold onto doesn't turn into energy.
There are difficult corner cases like nunchucks, shuriken, or boomerangs -- but for most weapons it works pretty well.
Then, expending 2 charges with the cube
2 2 20 ft. Keeps out nonliving matter
will block the weapon, even if it is a brilliant energy weapon, because the pommel will be of ordinary matter. Also, as uriel222 pointed out, the wall of forces might, lets concede a margin of doubt, not be of matter (and this is enforced by logic of the common sense, that cannot ignore that usually magic is of magical matter, except effects of the conjuration(creation) subschool, that are also subject to DR and hardness).
I am pointing that out because I would like to know if my doubt is legitimate or I am too blind - or worse, dumb - to understand how the cube and that weapon interacts, so please be more precise and convincent, like AvalonXQ if you can, please
will block the weapon, even if it is a brilliant energy weapon, because the pommel will be of ordinary matter. Also, as uriel222 pointed out, the wall of forces might, lets concede a margin of doubt, not be of matter (and this is enforced by logic of the common sense, that cannot ignore that usually magic is of magical matter, except effects of the conjuration(creation) subschool, that are also subject to DR and hardness).
I am pointing that out because I would like to know if my doubt is legitimate or I am too blind - or worse, dumb - to understand how the cube and that weapon interacts, so please be more precise and convincent, like AvalonXQ if you can, please
Please note that you don't do damage with the pommel of the weapon, you do it with the blade or arrow etc. If stopping the pommel stopped it, you would not be able to attack anyway, even if the pommel were also energy, since your hand would not be able to go any farther.
I've pointed out the rules, so have others, and quoted. If you are not satisfied, then you will just have to live with being unsatisfied. The rules are not there to explain every possible permutation. As a GM, you will have to make decisions on how you implement the rules.
Personally, I think at this point you're either being very obtuse, or are trying to argue for the sake of arguing. It seems you ahve decided that any cube stops any brilliant energy weapon, and you are wanting justification. If you're the GM, just rule it that way. If you're looking for someone to tell you you're right, it appears you are looking in vain, at least as far as this thread goes.
I've given you rules quotes and my interpretation. You obviously don't like or want it, so I'm done. Enjoy your game.
Just to point out:
1) I'm not the Gm in my group, we're having a problem with this interaction in our group and I have to ask here to other players like us to play as the others, or at least the majority, do. And this is very difficult, because I can have my opinion, I can change it because of valid intervents that convince me, but then I have to refer that argomentation to the rest of the group and new issues come from, reasonings that are logical too and I come back here and repeat this ad nauseam until everyone is satisfied. I am sorry if I was rude or to harsh, that's not my intent also communication with chat is not helping unless putting an :) emoticon to the very end of any paragraph to show my current emotional status.
2) Back to the post, I immediately agreed your suggestion, I personally thought that was sagacious
It depends on how many charges you expended.
Less than 4 charges, no. Four or more charges, yes.
and I used this argumentation when I played Sunday. It was valid, and everyone was convinced. Until our 'paladin' player said "how are 2 charges spent not sufficient?". We started to think and to argue, the group splitted in two parts. So, we do want to know how others handle this. And no, we're not the type of group that' is satisfied with a 'lets your Gm handle and deal with it, whatever he wants because of the Gm fiat'...
So, what I don't understand it is why player A that activated the cube with 2 charges (stops nonliving matter) can't be still attacked by player B with an energy brilliant weapon AND the weapon bypasses the wall, ignoring the part of the description were it says that the significant part of it is made of light, whereas the rest still normal?If you have an answer and the patience and time to explain (possibly in full detail), I, and as the 'ambassador' of our group -We-, will really appreciate that.
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The sword consists of two main parts- the blade that you stick into B, and the pommel (handle) that is in A's hand. The blade is the bit that's being effected by brilliant energy, not the handle. Because it's brilliant energy, it does not qualify as 'matter' in the 'non-living matter' statement of the cube of force. You can only stab as far as the blade reaches, but as long as B is right by the field, it should be fine.
Basically, think of a brilliant energy weapon as a lightsaber from star wars.
The significant part of a brilliant energy weapon is not non-living matter or living matter; it's magical energy instead. So only a side 4 or side 5 activation will stop it.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Can a brilliant energy weapon bypass a Cube of Force? And can a character with that weapon attack enemies (provided he can see them) inside of a fortress shield [APG page 286]?
Brilliant Energy is void vs Objects. Cube of Force is an object. So you ignore the fact the weapon is Brilliant Energy when attacking the Cube.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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3 charges will block the (presumably living) wielder if the weapon does not have reach enough to reach the target. 4 charges will block the blade if it's set to brilliant energy. 2 charges will block the weapon IF the brilliant feature is not active.
Chalk it up to "we differ."
Since as far as I'm reading the RAW the Brilliant Energy effect is for all intents and purposes inactive while interacting with the Cube. So the number of charges expended for a +1 brilliant energy longsword is identical to +1 Longsword.
Brilliant Energy is void vs Objects. Cube of Force is an object. So you ignore the fact the weapon is Brilliant Energy when attacking the Cube.
Since as far as I'm reading the RAW the Brilliant Energy effect is for all intents and purposes inactive while interacting with the Cube. So the number of charges expended for a +1 brilliant energy longsword is identical to +1 Longsword.
You're reading brilliant energy wrong. It's not "void vs Objects" - it "ignores nonliving matter" Which means it just passes harmlessly through them. The weapon ignores their entire existence. If you were hiding behind an iron wall or a lead sheet, it could still reach you (restricted by reach normally, assuming no natural reach) as if you were standing in the open.
The question is whether "Keeps out nonliving matter" is sufficient to stop an energy weapon or not.
Again, we differ.You're reading brilliant energy wrong.
A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects.
A brilliant energy weapon has its significant portion transformed into light, although this does not modify the item's weight. It always gives off light as a torch (20-foot radius). A brilliant energy weapon ignores nonliving matter. Armor and shield bonuses to AC (including any enhancement bonuses to that armor) do not count against it because the weapon passes through armor. (Dexterity, deflection, dodge, natural armor, and other such bonuses still apply.) A brilliant energy weapon cannot harm undead, constructs, and objects. This property can only be applied to melee weapons, thrown weapons, and ammunition.
There's two relevant parts to Brilliant Energy - I've bolded them both. If a brilliant energy weapon "ignores nonliving matter" and "cannot harm ... objects", then clearly it passes harmlessly through it. Otherwise, it either wouldn't bypass armor and a single piece of paper would be enough to stop it, or else it would be able to damage objects exactly the same as a non-BE weapon.
I'm not going to get involved in the question of how many charges you need to spend from the cube to block said weapon - I'm just pointing out that you're trying to draw your conclusions from an incorrect reading of the RAW.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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it would be able to damage objects exactly the same as a non-BE weapon.
from an incorrect reading of the RAW.
I guess it all comes down to how to handle the "cannot harm" line. The question only comes into play with objects not worn, such as a Cube or a table.
Your version asserts the weapon because it is Brilliant means it can not interact with any object. For example, you couldn't lift an object with a Brilliant energy weapon.
My version asserts the weapon property essentially isn't active when interacting with objects.
We differ on the reading of the RAW, and I don't believe my version is any more incorrect than yours. You disagree.
My version makes the attacks against the Cube operate as if the weapon wasn't Brilliant.
Your version requires the weapon to ignore the cube entirely.
My version asserts the weapon property essentially isn't active when interacting with objects.
If the weapon property were inactive when interacting with objects, then I could harm an object with a brilliant energy weapon as easily as with a normal weapon. Certainly a lot of RAW is debatable, but this is clear -- the weapon passes harmlessly through nonliving matter, whether attended or not.
We differ on the reading of the RAW, and I don't believe my version is any more incorrect than yours.
But you *are* wrong. If the Brilliant Energy was basically inactive when interacting with objects, then why would it ignore the target armor bonus to AC? If it was the way you say, then why a Brilliant Energy weapon can not harm undead, constructs and objects, as stated by the book? Because then it would be just at least a +1 weapon.
So, yeah. The RAW and RAI are very consistent on this and you are wrong.
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james,
I think you are working off an incorrect assumption, which is actually a potential misunderstanding of how a Cube of Force works.
The Brilliant Energy weapon won't affect the cube itself, but it wasn't being used to attack the cube.
However, the effect the Cube of Force puts up are six Walls of Force, which is where the question comes in. How many charges from the Cube does it take to create the six walls, that would make the wealls impervious to a Brilliant Energy weapon.
As is:
0 charges: No effect, no Walls of Force up, BE weapon cannot effect the inert cube of force item.
1 charge: No effect on BE weapon, Walls of Force only useful against poison gases and such, BE weapon still cannot effect the active cube of force item.
2 charges: Whatever portion of the BE weapon is still non-light cannot pass through the Walls of Force, potential to still affect living targets inside the area protected by the Walls of Force. BE weapon still cannot affect the cube of force item itself.
3 charges: Wielder of weapon, unless non-living, cannot penetrate Walls of Force, but BE weapon can. BE weapon still cannot affect the cube of force item itself.
4 charges: Walls of Force keep out all magic, which should include the BE weapon. BE weapon still cannot affect the cube of force item itself.
5 charges: Walls of Force keep everythign out, including BE weapon. BE weapon still cannot affect the cube of force item itself.
So, the BE weapon cannot affect the Cube of Force, correct. However, whether the Walls of Force the Cube of Force creates block the BE weapon is what this discussion is about.
The main thing to remember is that the Cube of Force is an item, fairly small, and that you won't be able to Sunder it with a BE weapon. Then again, you can't sunder anything with a BE weapon.
However, when activated, the Cube generates a set of 6 Walls of Force with differing defensive characteristics. Since they are Walls of Force, they are not nonliving matter, but energy (specifically force), and what interaction, if any, they have with a BE weapon is entirely different than what a BE weapon has with a physical object.
2 charges: Whatever portion of the BE weapon is still non-light cannot pass through the Walls of Force, potential to still affect living targets inside the area protected by the Walls of Force. BE weapon still cannot affect the cube of force item itself.3 charges: Wielder of weapon, unless non-living, cannot penetrate Walls of Force, but BE weapon can. BE weapon still cannot affect the cube of force item itself.
I've always wondered about this, but it's never come up in any game I've played in - can a person walk into a two-charge cube? Or would they have to be naked to do so?