Consulting the "Monster Creation" guidelines, it looks to me like trap stats roughly line up with the offensive values given there; sometimes an attack roll or DC will be higher or lower (often with mitigating factors), but the average damage values for each trap tend to be very close to the "high" damage value for the trap's CR.
In other words, it looks like a CR X trap should be comparable to a single attack from a CR X monster.
Does that make any sense at all?
A CR5 fireball trap will fireball you once for 6d6 (DC14 for half), after which it is defeated. Meanwhile a real level 6 wizard will fireball you once for 6d6 (DC17 for half), then do the exact same thing next round, and keep doing it until you defeat him. A winter wolf's breath weapon has the same damage and DC as the wizard's fireball. A troll lacks the dastardly versatility of a caster and can't hit an area, but can potentially deliver even more damage and is much harder to kill. All of these are clearly more dangerous than the one-shot trap, yet according to the rules they have the same challenge rating (CR 5) and are worth the same amount of XP.
Is this a real problem with the system, or is there some fundamental element of encounter balance which I'm missing? I'm trying to design something that's sort of between a standard encounter and a one-shot trap, but I have no idea which standard to base my CR on; it seems like there's a huge disconnect between what "challenge rating" means for traps and what it means for villains and monsters.
Yup. Traps ARE easy for the CR. If you're missing something i don't know what it is. I don't know if that's a flaw of traps or a feature.
Creative Director
|
Traps are meant to be sneaky. They hit you when you're not looking and often don't let you even have a chance to do anything about it, unlike monsters. So there's that.
But also, it's so that when a trap goes off, and the PCs either endure it or survive it or bypass it or disarm it, that they get a worthwile amount of XP for the situation. It's also a way to judge how tough a trap is when compared to other traps. Although traps and creatures both use CR as that number, that's mostly just a convenience; the rules for building a trap and for building a monster are different, so you can't really compare their CRs anyway.
Yup. Traps ARE easy for the CR. If you're missing something i don't know what it is. I don't know if that's a flaw of traps or a feature.
They are only there to make rogues useful so they might as well award enough XP for doing essentially nothing.
My take on it anyway
I'm not sure that they are really high, so much as set at certain levels to be included in an encounter. Yes, CR 5 does seem very high compared to the levels of the creatures you described. But imagine four 5th level adventurers stumbling onto that trap, which begins an ambush. A barbarian, rogue, or monk would probably make their save, but anyone else loses (avg.) 21 hp right from the start. That could turn a relatively minor encounter completely on its head.
Traps are meant to be sneaky. They hit you when you're not looking and often don't let you even have a chance to do anything about it, unlike monsters. So there's that.
But also....
+1
Although traps and creatures both use CR as that number, that's mostly just a convenience; the rules for building a trap and for building a monster are different, so you can't really compare their CRs anyway.
Thanks a ton for the prompt reply. I don't have much experience running traps, so I just wanted to make sure that the difference was real and not a product of my own misjudgment.
Saying they are ´only there to makes Rogues look useful´ is absurd IMHO. Having dungeons, etc, without any traps would be stripping off a core part of the genre. Yeah, Rogues or anybody specialized at finding and disabling/bypassing traps are linked to that aspect of the genre...
...To the main point, I think Traps NEED to be WELL placed to gain maximal ´situational advantage´, i.e. just where intruders are least likely to be checking (i.e. tying into guards and other NPC/Monsters behavior, ´herding´ PCs towards trap, etc) or such that they are maximally effective at some other level (i.e. a traps effects´ synergizing and making it easier for the next-in-line monster - who is unleashed after trap - to wipe out affected PCs). That Traps are certainly on the low side for their given CR means these other circumstances can safely be ramped up... they should be part and parcel of a GOOD trap.
Remember - a vat of acid that adventurers drop into isn't a very good trap, most of the time.
A vat of acid with a clay golem in it, who grapples PC's and pulls them into the acid, is a very good trap.
it is also a much high CR and worth boatloads of XP (CR 6-7 trap and CR 10 golem), as opposed to just having another monster with a lower CR (say 4-5) with the golem that will do just as much damage to the guy the golem is grappling (lets make it a swarm) and be harder to avoid then a golem sitting in a pit (which also gives the other party members a height bonus).
Saying they are only there to make rogues seem useful may be an overstatement but I haven't found a trap I couldn't exactly replace with a lower CR creature.
Remember - a vat of acid that adventurers drop into isn't a very good trap, most of the time.
A vat of acid with a clay golem in it, who grapples PC's and pulls them into the acid, is a very good trap.
I agree, which is where I'm finding problems. I want traps to be more "monster like"; more something that you fight and interact with over time, and less of a static mechanical exchange that you can't do anything about. But if I make something like that and judge it as a trap, then their effects will be really wimpy for their CR (to compensate the fact that they don't just defeat themselves). Conversely, if I grade them like monsters then DMs might not take then seriously enough, being used to the fact that trap CRs tend to be under-rated.
There IS some wisdom in the current CR assignments for traps. That fireball trap will never be as great a challenge as the winter wolf (unless you think you can drop him before he gets off a single standard action?), but it could still wipe out a level 2 or 3 party. If you tried to assign trap CRs based on "real" challenge (so that trap+monster was as dangerous as monster+monster) then most existing traps would be way too swingy, doing nothing one encounter and then killing a PC the next. Traps are all teeth.
If you tried to assign trap CRs based on "real" challenge (so that trap+monster was as dangerous as monster+monster) then most existing traps would be way too swingy, doing nothing one encounter and then killing a PC the next. Traps are all teeth.
That's not entirely true. Some of the best traps are the ones your players spot. Known dangers can shape a battlefield in a substantial way. Do they charge through the trap to get the dangerous caster? Or flee to find another path? Do they send the rogue through hoping to trigger and avoid? The fighter to trigger and survive? Spend a round to summon a creature? Sacrifice a henchman? Come up with a solution, both unexpected and inventive?
Traps are also a good way to prevent "tunnel vision". Are they grabbing for the treasure? Charging the enemies on-sight? Kicking open every door?
|
it is also a much high CR and worth boatloads of XP (CR 6-7 trap and CR 10 golem), as opposed to just having another monster with a lower CR (say 4-5) with the golem that will do just as much damage to the guy the golem is grappling (lets make it a swarm) and be harder to avoid then a golem sitting in a pit (which also gives the other party members a height bonus).
Saying they are only there to make rogues seem useful may be an overstatement but I haven't found a trap I couldn't exactly replace with a lower CR creature.
But does your other monster obscure vision, block movement, and heal the clay golem all at the same time? I dare say it does not. Nor will that other monster grant the golem concealment until the PC's pass close by, allowing it to actually ambush them effectively despite the fact that it has a terrible stealth modifier. And once the golem has somebody grappled, they'll feel duty-bound to fight him. Lastly, adding a CR 7 trap to a CR 10 monster really isn't that much of an XP boost to the CR 10 monster. Kind of a pittance, really. No pun intended.
But if it's too much XP to be worth it to you, then just lower the frikkin' CR value. It's not hard, and they don't need much adjusting (-10%? -25%?) to be really mean. You don't have to re-calculate the amount of damage each one deals. You don't have to alter the attack bonuses, save DC's, or the poisons placed in them. CR is more or less an arbitrary number in the first place - replacing it with another, slightly smaller arbitrary number is the least of all problems a DM faces.
The CR value is easily the most malleable part of any stat-block. Changing the CR of every single trap by -1 or -20% changes NOTHING about how the game works, how traps work, whether the traps will hit, and whether that will be really bad for the party. The only thing that it changes is DM rewards - those are easy to dole out or rein in, as the situation demands.
I think I'm repeating myself. Hopefully, that means I'm not misunderstood. If I know the internet, however, no amount of repetition will really help.
That's not entirely true. Some of the best traps are the ones your players spot. Known dangers can shape a battlefield in a substantial way. Do they charge through the trap to get the dangerous caster? Or flee to find another path? Do they send the rogue through hoping to trigger and avoid? The fighter to trigger and survive? Spend a round to summon a creature? Sacrifice a henchman? Come up with a solution, both unexpected and inventive?
That's kind of what I'm saying, though. There's a high chance of them proving harmless (based on good rolls or smart behavior) but also a high chance of them being very dangerous, which is why I think that trap CRs err so far on the high side.
|
Traps are good ways of reducing PC resources between significant encounters and have the added advantage of always being vigilant. An orc might fall asleep at its post, but a pit is always hungry for more adventurers!
Trap CR's are also an excuse for all that treasure locked in the vault at the end of the dungeon. Traps can also be nice tools for a GM who has dropped clues about the dungeon but whose players have ignored. They're a nice wake up call, the stick to the story tidbits carrot.
--Falling Vrock trap
But does your other monster obscure vision, block movement, and heal the clay golem all at the same time? I dare say it does not. Nor will that other monster grant the golem concealment until the PC's pass close by, allowing it to actually ambush them effectively despite the fact that it has a terrible stealth modifier. And once the golem has somebody grappled, they'll feel duty-bound to fight him. Lastly, adding a CR 7 trap to a CR 10 monster really isn't that much of an XP boost to the CR 10 monster. Kind of a pittance, really. No pun intended.
Does yours trap do any of that (aside from heal the golem)? Being A CR 7 trap means it has a very low perception DC, the PC's will find it. we could make it CR 10 and it may be tougher to spot if the party rolls low, but if anyone see's it they will just bombard it with attacks until it comes out. unless it is deep enough to hide the golem in which you have an even more dangerous trap (and they may just hear the golem anyway). What is our CR at now? I could add a Swarm and a Wizard to provide the damage, healing, and concealment.
I could lower the CR of the trap but the players will feel kind of cheated (if they know the trap building rules)
I could lower the CR of the trap but the players will feel kind of cheated (if they know the trap building rules)
Just create traps that would be hard to discern at a glance from the rules, like a bag of holding + portable hole trap. A little creativity on trigger mechanisms can go a long way (triggering things off of a dispel is always good times)
Just create traps that would be hard to discern at a glance from the rules, like a bag of holding + portable hole trap. A little creativity on trigger mechanisms can go a long way (triggering things off of a dispel is always good times)
That sounds immediately lethal, how do you escape that?
That sounds immediately lethal, how do you escape that?
Just create traps that would be hard to discern at a glance from the rules, like a bag of holding + portable hole trap. A little creativity on trigger mechanisms can go a long way (triggering things off of a dispel is always good times)
It's not lethal, you just get sucked into a rift to the astral plane.
It's not lethal, you just get sucked into a rift to the astral plane.
And have no air to breath
And have no air to breathIt's not lethal, you just get sucked into a rift to the astral plane.
Astral plane is timeless, you can't suffocate while there. As there's nothing saying that there's no air there, just very little solid matter.
The problem with traps is that they become useless at about level 10 to 12, when the party Rogue can get Skill Mastery. After that point, there is no chance of failure anymore for the Rogue to spot and disarm them and their CR becomes meaningless.
OTOH, if there is no party Rogue, the higher level traps can be a bit too deadly to just walk through. ^^
I personally feel an IED is a lot more frightening than some joker with a gun no matter how simple the IED is to defeat. But, that is real life and this is a game where I know I can be hit full on by a baby meteor and still keep fighting.
Has anyone ever played a game where they had no idea what their current health was other than a general description form the GM? That makes the idea of just tromping around a lot more threatening to one's survival.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Has anyone ever played a game where they had no idea what their current health was other than a general description form the GM? That makes the idea of just tromping around a lot more threatening to one's survival.
I run my games that way, I have a list of approximate amounts of damage. At first level, light damage is 1-3 points and by 10th level light damage is 1-10 points. I use four categories: light, medium, heavy, and extreme. Makes groups a little more cautious.
The problem with traps is that they become useless at about level 10 to 12, when the party Rogue can get Skill Mastery. After that point, there is no chance of failure anymore for the Rogue to spot and disarm them and their CR becomes meaningless.
The best use of traps at this point is as an in-combat danger. Traps are listed in the environment section for a reason -- they're additional threats that plague PCs when they're distracted by combat and not thinking about traps. This is where the rogue's trap spotter talent becomes so useful.
I agree with much of what was said here about the proper placement and use of traps. A few fireball traps with a few weak fire-immune monsters, for example.
.
One reason traps have a high CR is that they have tons of immunities.
- How many spells can affect a trap? Less than work on a golem!
- How many attacks can affect a trap? Frequently none!
- Traps can't be reasoned with or bribed.
- Many traps use the alarm spell to detect targets, which does not rely on sight, hearing, smell, or touch, and allows no save or spell resistance, so they're not susceptible to sneaking by.
I agree, which is where I'm finding problems. I want traps to be more "monster like"; more something that you fight and interact with over time, and less of a static mechanical exchange that you can't do anything about.
If you can get your hands on a copy have a look at the 3.5 book dungeonscape. It has details on rules for traps as encounters/parts of encounters. I've used it a few times and they have created really memorable encounters. Not only are they designed to be interacted with by more then just a skill roll, but they also can be disabled in different ways to include the whole party. Throw in a few monsters and you have scenes that your players (hopefully) will remember for a long time.
Traps are meant to be sneaky. They hit you when you're not looking and often don't let you even have a chance to do anything about it, unlike monsters. So there's that.
In my personal experience, so everyone's mileage may vary, an invisible monster (which you can find at, say, CR 5) is way harder to find than a trap.
Maybe I'm used to seeing dedicated trapfinders in my parties, and/or players are so oldskool they just automatically always search for traps, or I and my fellow GMs are just lousy at placing them, but in, again, my personal experience, the Perception DCs are easily beaten by a trapfinder of the appropriate level. I've seen this at low and high levels, and the only thing that makes things get tricky are when I add stuff like mystic aura or something (which is fine, but cheesy if I do that to everything--plus the players will come to expect it). At any rate, my point is: traps are rarely surprising (in my particular circumstances).
Maybe we need more guidelines on how to use traps effectively, if Paizo truly feels their CRs are adequate.
Maybe we need more guidelines on how to use traps effectively, if Paizo truly feels their CRs are adequate.
Just don't have them trigger off all the usual suspects. Everyone knows about the old "step here to get blasted". Just one up their meta-gaming. Have traps that only trigger if the PC's actively do something about it. Sure every once in a while they will simply walk by it with impunity, but if you mention that the party rogue detects a trap they will fiddle with it and likely cause it to go off. For example, the local ceiling is being supporting by a Mud to Rock spell, so if the PC's remove the Mud to Rock spell, the ceiling will collapse and get hit for 8d6, but if they left it alone they could just walk by and none would be the wiser.
I agree with much of what was said here about the proper placement and use of traps. A few fireball traps with a few weak fire-immune monsters, for example.
.
One reason traps have a high CR is that they have tons of immunities.[list]
How many spells can affect a trap? Less than work on a golem!
How many attacks can affect a trap? Frequently none!
Traps can't be reasoned with or bribed.
You don't have to attack them. They basically defeat themselves after taking only a single action. Any monster who survives to take even a single round worth of actions is probably better than a trap.
Cases where the monster DOESN'T get that single round of actions are debatable. A fireball trap (DC 28, IIRC) is harder to notice than that winter wolf (+10 stealth in snow). Ambushing, sneaking past, or otherwise subverting monsters is debatably easier than doing the same to traps, but that's still debatable. Sneaky monsters can be much more devious than sneaky traps, and just because you notice and identify a monster doesn't mean you'll be able to defeat or avoid it as easily as you could a trap. There are arguments to be made for both sides here.
But if the PCs DON'T get the drop on a challenge, which is usually the case, then monsters are definitely better.
I agree, which is where I'm finding problems. I want traps to be more "monster like"; more something that you fight and interact with over time, and less of a static mechanical exchange that you can't do anything about.If you can get your hands on a copy have a look at the 3.5 book dungeonscape. It has details on rules for traps as encounters/parts of encounters. I've used it a few times and they have created really memorable encounters. Not only are they designed to be interacted with by more then just a skill roll, but they also can be disabled in different ways to include the whole party. Throw in a few monsters and you have scenes that your players (hopefully) will remember for a long time.
Thanks. That's not the first recommendation I've heard for that book, and I've actually seen it lying around gamestore shelves in the area, so maybe I should finally check it out.
Maybe we need more guidelines on how to use traps effectively, if Paizo truly feels their CRs are adequate.Just don't have them trigger off all the usual suspects. Everyone knows about the old "step here to get blasted". Just one up their meta-gaming. Have traps that only trigger if the PC's actively do something about it. Sure every once in a while they will simply walk by it with impunity, but if you mention that the party rogue detects a trap they will fiddle with it and likely cause it to go off. For example, the local ceiling is being supporting by a Mud to Rock spell, so if the PC's remove the Mud to Rock spell, the ceiling will collapse and get hit for 8d6, but if they left it alone they could just walk by and none would be the wiser.
I'd say be careful there. Cureballs can be a good time for all, but the LAST thing you want to do is create an environment where PCs feel like they aren't rewarded (and are in fact punished) for playing it safe or interacting with their environment.
Traps going off can warn bad guys to PC presence . . .
+1
A fairly low CR trap can alert a group of monsters who use their extra time to prepare, cranking up the CR of the next encounter significantly.
|
|
Does yours trap do any of that (aside from heal the golem)?
But does your other monster obscure vision, block movement, and heal the clay golem all at the same time?
Yes. Yes, it can do all that and more. But you must be cunning and ingenious in its placement and use. Improperly placed, it'll be useless.
I'd say be careful there. Cureballs can be a good time for all, but the LAST thing you want to do is create an environment where PCs feel like they aren't rewarded (and are in fact punished) for playing it safe or interacting with their environment.Maybe we need more guidelines on how to use traps effectively, if Paizo truly feels their CRs are adequate.Just don't have them trigger off all the usual suspects. Everyone knows about the old "step here to get blasted". Just one up their meta-gaming. Have traps that only trigger if the PC's actively do something about it. Sure every once in a while they will simply walk by it with impunity, but if you mention that the party rogue detects a trap they will fiddle with it and likely cause it to go off. For example, the local ceiling is being supporting by a Mud to Rock spell, so if the PC's remove the Mud to Rock spell, the ceiling will collapse and get hit for 8d6, but if they left it alone they could just walk by and none would be the wiser.
Well you can't play it safe when the BBEG unleashes his randomly determined doomsday thingy in the next half hour and you're at the bottom of his tower.
Well you can't play it safe when the BBEG unleashes his randomly determined doomsday thingy in the next half hour and you're at the bottom of his tower.
Oh yea, that's totally true! If your players feel like they can always take their time, that doesn't sound like a very exciting game to me. And time constraints can make players take traps way more seriously.
That said, there can also be times when you should take your time and feel out your environment. For some players, that's one of their favorite parts of the game, and as long as everyone thinks it's fun I would want those players to feel like what they're doing is smart overall (even if I do throw them the occasional curveball).
I agree that traps by itself are rather high on CR, a trap can make for an excellent addition to a lair or encounter though.
Traps have a very good chance of working when they are worked into another encounter and effectively come out with a very good chance to 'spot' intruders thus alarming creatures nearby.
If for example the party sees a giant guarding a door on and the giant doesnt immediately notice them, they will be tempted to sneak up to him.. few players will think to try and locate traps while they sneak up to the giant in their excitement to jump the bad guy for once.
If a trap is sprung and dumps the party 'tank' screaming down a spiked pit they not only alerted the giant and inflicted some damage but also lost their 'tank' for a few precious rounds of intense combat.
Traps can also be used by players to get the bad guys, too. A rogue is even more useful if he counter rigs a trap that was set for them or sets on of his own then leads the bad guys back into it and an ambush.
For GMs traps are also a way to bleed off magic, hp, and time for overly brazen PCs without having to spend several combat rounds doing the same thing with a monster. I have played far more than GM'ed and have always appreciated the reasoning required to get around a "good" trap.