All,
Ever since D&D 3.0, I've felt the damage that Wizards (and Sorcerers, etc) do is feeble, due to the fact that from 3.0, monster hit points shot up at higher levels, resistances and spell immunity entered the game, and magic items dont really buff damage directly like they do with warriors etc (such as +x hit/dam items, and stat boost items which buff damage due to stat increase).
And yet, Wizards have been among the most powerful characters you can make, assuming you aren't going for a damage dealing Wizard. I mean, 10d6 with reflex saves, resistances, spell resistance, and items that buff them, well it leaves damage-oriented arcane characters feeling disappointed. Or it does me.
So, I'm wondering, in Pathfinder, is there an equivalent of a Warmage or a Warlock yet? I really HUNGER to be able to play an Arcane Blaster that is as fearsome and reliable as any other damage dealer. The likely tradeoff would seem to be lower hit points and few/no non-combat spells in exchange for the bravery of being out of range. I'd even be fine with the class being single-target in focus so that I could get some armor.
Anyway, I'm rambling. Are there any plans to make a pure damage-dealing arcane ranged mage type? One that one be frustrated constantly by "it made its save" or "spell resistance kicked in" or "this thing soaks 10-20 points a round of fire" and "oh, it soaks 10/round of cold and electric too, sorry you wasted those other 2 spells" and "you're out of spells, sorry man"?
I would basically love to see the 3.5 style Warlock be ported to Pathfinder officially, but souped up to compete with the more awesome versions of the classes Paizo has provided.
Barring that, whats the best way currently to make an arcane blaster that isn't totally laughable?
Thanks!
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If you want to hurt people from a distance your best bet is archer.
If you want to burn them, electrocute them, or melt them your best bet is alchemist.
Pure wizards/ sorcerers can blast but it's generally a decent secondary tactic rather than being their primary schtick.
If you insist on doing arcane caster that blast I suggest you take a peek at some of the sorcerer bloodlines which can help a fair amount.
I definitely want to do an arcane caster. I hate archers and bows and what-not. I just dont like the trappings and gear of the profession.
The alchemist is fine, but not really a blaster, despite the bombs. Not what I'm going for.
Looks like I'm screwed and I should just give up and/or wait. Well, at least I feel that I looked at the feats and bloodlines and didn't see anything that juicy.
Maybe the book coming in April/May will have some good mage stuff. Tho I think it just didn't occur to Paizo to make an arcane ranged damage class. To me, that's one of the few things I like about 4E D&D (Warlocks and Invokers being magical ranged damage dealers, one arcane and one divine).
I guess the combat book coming out in August has the Gun Mage. I haven't seen it, but its kinda sad that they made a Gun Mage before making the one kind of Mage that people have wished was still around (ZAP!).
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A simple one is a Half-orc Sorcerer using the favored class bonus in the APG for +1 damage on fire spells per 2 levels, with Dragon bloodline for +1 damage on fire spells per level. Using Elemental Spell feat to make other spells fire for massive damage.
The nice thing is, if you just do not apply Elemental Spell, the spell does damage as normal, so you are never stuck with only fire spells. Its pretty amazing damage for anyone.
Fire Magic Missiles with the bonus is gross, as is Chain Lightning later on.
I might get blasted for saying this, but I played a game in which a high-level arcane trickster did 650+ damage to the BBEG in one round (Disintegrate twice, using a rod of quickened spell, plus sneak attack on each, BB failed both saves. He killed him good, he did!).
The wait for all that damage power is the downside. You're sucky until high level. Not worth it if you won't get to high levels. That class needs some changes, IMHO.
A sorcerer makes a decent blaster with some feats and items.
Metamagic Rods can help, too. Depending on your GM's approach to wealth & magic items, you could make your first Fireball do 45 damage.
6d6+9 X 1.5 = 23-68
CL6, draconic bloodline (fire), half-orc racial, empowered.
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My own suggestion is an Admixture Wizard from APG multiclassing with spellwarp sniper and arcane trickster. I'm building one that will have preferred spell Scorching Ray and be hitting the enemy with sneak attacks while using invisibility and greater invisibility. It requires 1 level of rogue but it's better then 3 levels of rogue and arcane trickster. The nice thing is with the admixture wizard is that though my spell of choice might be scorching ray and thus deal fire damage, I can change that damage type and subtype 3+int modifier times per day not counting any bonus that might come from the elf favored class option. This of course requires access to 3rd party stuff. If you can't do that I still suggest elf admixture wizard as that'll let you get past resistances and immunities almost all the time.
The quick answer is properly: No.
Pathfinder kept the blaster wizard concept to a minimum (although for some reason the Iconic wiz and sorc use it?!?) in terms of power. Fixed damage bonuses are nice, but even +1 per level isn't going to keep pace with your enemies, so they don't scale.
The only way to scale Direct Damage is with metamagic, and PF has a paucity of that, and what it does have is too expensive to be taken as feats, you'd have to use Rods. The two basic MM feats, Empower and Maximize, don't even stack.
To make Direct Damage work, you need metamagic cost reduction, which PF has in exactly one Trait, for a grand total of 1 level, to one spell. Unless you go outside PF, you're not going to have a very effective blaster mage.
===Aelryinth
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Metamagic Rods can help, too. Depending on your GM's approach to wealth & magic items, you could make your first Fireball do 45 damage.
6d6+9 X 1.5 = 23-68
CL6, draconic bloodline (fire), half-orc racial, empowered.
Actually empower spell only affects the 6D6 part of your example.
Empower Spell (Metamagic)
You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half.
The variable effect is the 6D6, the +9 is a constant, so
(6D6 x 1.5) + 9 = 18-63 = average of 40.5|
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To the disappointment of blaster fans everywhere, arcane mages have been dropping in power in every game format. Pathfinder in particular has reduced the sheer damage output but in return increased the survivability of a mage. In many earlier incarnations fights quickly became "the mage kills everything" (not fun for the other players) or "the monsters rush the mage and kill him before he kills them" (not fun for the mage players). Mages have gone from glass cannons to tin machine-guns. I actually like the way it has tilted towards party balance and more fun for everyone.
If you do want to be an arcane blaster, I would suggest a wizard and accept that you won't be very good until level 7 and really start to blow things up good at level 11. As others have said, metamagic is what makes a blaster work in Pathfinder. A fireball with two feats (both from the APG) can be brutal. Elemental spell can make it an iceball or acidball and persistent spell makes everyone save twice.
Empower is flat out great. A lesser rod of empower spell costs 9000 and is a great investment.
Look at Scorching Ray. Ranged touch attack and no saving throw. (See: Elemental Metamagic Rod and Empower Spell.)
Oh, and why wizard instead of sorcerer? Two reasons: With your high intelligence you can afford the skill ranks in knowledge to figure out what a particular monster is weak against. More importantly the Admixture focused arcane school (APG) lets you apply an effect identical to Elemental Spell 3+int modifier times a day without changing the level or casting time of the spell and lets you choose the element as you cast.
Why don't you just play a Warlock?
Don't forget you get more feats in Pathfinder, and a bonus of one skill point or hp level for your favored class. The warlock is already D6 hd and gains something every level.
If you find it to be sub-par, just ask your DM to let you pick a bloodline, for the powers and extra feats. Should do the trick. A Protean or Aberrant warlock would be... frightening and disturbing, to say the least.
The quick answer is properly: No.
Pathfinder kept the blaster wizard concept to a minimum (although for some reason the Iconic wiz and sorc use it?!?) in terms of power. Fixed damage bonuses are nice, but even +1 per level isn't going to keep pace with your enemies, so they don't scale.
The only way to scale Direct Damage is with metamagic, and PF has a paucity of that, and what it does have is too expensive to be taken as feats, you'd have to use Rods. The two basic MM feats, Empower and Maximize, don't even stack.
To make Direct Damage work, you need metamagic cost reduction, which PF has in exactly one Trait, for a grand total of 1 level, to one spell. Unless you go outside PF, you're not going to have a very effective blaster mage.
===Aelryinth
Empower and Maximize do indeed stack.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.
Have you looked at the words of power playtest?
Blasting is useless except if you have nothing better to do (or you are purely concerned with flavor and don't care about being the most worthless member of the party - seriously, a bard is better in a fight than a blaster). 10D6 sounds like a lot, but the average of 10D6 is 30. Thirty. Thur-tee. You will average only 30 points of damage under the best of conditions. The only way to up that average is waste tons of feats and min/max the hell out of your mage. Even then, the rest of your party will probably outperform you by a long shot.
If you want to focus on damage, summon a Dire Tiger or something. It will easily do better than any blast in the long run, it absorbs damage (which is just as good as healing), it will keep doing damage for several rounds instead of only one (which is like getting a free blast each round), you can throw tons of other spells while the summoned monster is still doing its thing, you can make it drastically more effective with ONE feat (Aug Summoning), and it allows you have even more control over a fight (use them like a wall, set up flanking, provoke AoO, act as a distraction, etc, etc, etc). Plus, some of the creatures summoned can cast spells that you can't. What's not to love?
After that, a spiked pit will do more to win a fight than any fireball ever.
The quick answer is properly: No.
Pathfinder kept the blaster wizard concept to a minimum (although for some reason the Iconic wiz and sorc use it?!?) in terms of power. Fixed damage bonuses are nice, but even +1 per level isn't going to keep pace with your enemies, so they don't scale.
The only way to scale Direct Damage is with metamagic, and PF has a paucity of that, and what it does have is too expensive to be taken as feats, you'd have to use Rods. The two basic MM feats, Empower and Maximize, don't even stack.
To make Direct Damage work, you need metamagic cost reduction, which PF has in exactly one Trait, for a grand total of 1 level, to one spell. Unless you go outside PF, you're not going to have a very effective blaster mage.
===Aelryinth
Empower and Maximize do indeed stack.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.
That rule is explicitly telling you they do NOT stack. If they stacked, you would get the benefits of BOTH feats...150% of the maximum result. So a 90 pt fireball, instead of 60 + 1/2 of 10d6.
Also, Pathfinder upgraded the survivability of the arcane casters by +2 hit points a level...favored class hp bonus, and a d6 hit die, + Toughness is WAY better for one feat.
But yeah, they really ground down on blaster damage.
Most DM's consider a fixed bonus part of the variable dmg for Empower, it's just easier that way...and Empower is a small enough boost that it doesn't matter.
Now, don't hold it against them for nerfing metamagic efficiency, because it's an easy way to break the game with OTHER spells, as I'm sure many of us here have realized. It's just that it renders a blaster mage concept unviable. Fun, but unviable.
==+Aelryinth
Thanks for all the replies. I'll note them all down and see what I can come up with for now.
Thanks!
Why don't you just play a Warlock?
I must have missed it. I didn't realize there was a Warlock for Pathfinder.
If you do want to be an arcane blaster, I would suggest a wizard and accept that you won't be very good until level 7 and really start to blow things up good at level 11. As others have said, metamagic is what makes a blaster work in Pathfinder. A fireball with two feats (both from the APG) can be brutal. Elemental spell can make it an iceball or acidball and persistent spell makes everyone save twice.
Empower is flat out great. A lesser rod of empower spell costs 9000 and is a great investment.
This is something I could do, but I find it frustrating. I mean sure I can stack metamagic feats, but then I eat up higher spell slots, or I have to purchase specific items, and so I get less boom for my buck in terms of number of times a day.
That is why I wish there were something like the Warlock that is balanced for the damage I can do every round. If I *could* make a Warrior Archer, but my GM would let everybody at the table pretend that all the feats and gear I'm buying were magic things and that the "Arrows" were actually arcane blasts, I'd just do that.
I find all the screwing around with metamagic, and the limited shots per day, to be frustrating. Hence my desire to have such a class be more like a Warlock; in that they can shoot all they want. I'd just like the damage made competitive with an Archer (if it isnt already) or maybe a bit better if I can't have the same HP and Armor as a (Warrior) archer.
Anyway .... dreams.
Cool. I'll just give up the dream. :)
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Cool. I'll just give up the dream. :)
*sigh*
Wow... I forget how negative people are.
You can make a blaster wizard/ sorcerer. There are lots of them out there and they are not entirely terrible, particularly if they mix up tactics and take things like haste also. There are also *some* situations where they do quite well, it's just fairly limited and often you don't know until you try it.
Once you get to high enough level Dazing Spell from the APG is pretty awesome and lets you blast and apply a nasty daze effect to an enemy. Probably the nastiest metamagic for blasters, much better than empower or maximize.
There is also a trait called magical lineage that allows you to lower the metamagic cost for one spell. Combining the two could have a fifth level fireball that dazes everyone who fails the save for 3 rounds...
Why don't you just play a Warlock?I must have missed it. I didn't realize there was a Warlock for Pathfinder.
There is not. I meaned: use the 3.5 one, and add a bloodline if you must. You get more skills/feats already, and the class is solid as it is.
I believe that there was a thread around here about maximizing Magic Missile. The general consensus may have been that it is viable with the AT's Sneak Attack, but I might be wrong.
As a poster above said, the Draconic bloodline for the Sorcerer seems to be well-suited for blasting - that +1 damage per die of your dragon's energy type could be pretty handy. The natural armor boosts don't hurt either, nor does the energy resistance. The bloodline also has some of the best spells, as well as Perception as a class skill.
I myself was messing around with the idea of an Aberration Sorcerer. A Dex/Cha-based caster could really lay on nasty touch spells like Ghoul Touch with reach and Weapon Finesse to make up for the low Strength mod (I believe this works, anyway).
I don't think you're ever going to find an "optimal" blaster, but if you're just playing for the fun of it, there's no reason it can't be viable.
10D6 sounds like a lot, but the average of 10D6 is 30. Thirty. Thur-tee.
Wrong. double-u are oh en gee.
The average for a d6 is 3.5, so 10d6 will do 35 on average.
Better check your numbers before you overemphasise stuff.
Why don't you just play a Warlock?I must have missed it. I didn't realize there was a Warlock for Pathfinder.
There is not.
Actually, there is, in a third-party book. But the class is very badly designed.
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This may sound weird, but I think it could work.
Half-Orc
Orc Bloodline Sorcerer(from Paizo's Orc's of Golorian book)
1 Level in Bard
1 Level in Dragon Disciple.
You use the level of Bard to qualify for DD, and use the level of DD to get the Draconic bloodline arcana. After that you can pump your favored class bonus into dealing fire damage(+9 by level 18), get a +1 to elemental damage for each die rolled from Dragon Disciple, and a +1 damage bonus per die rolled from the Orc bloodline to any spell that deals damage.
Spell Penetration and it's big brother can help you break past that pesky SR too.
EDIT: Okay, this won't work. The Dragon Disciple prestige class prohibits gaining any level in sorcerer that isn't Draconic after you take the first DD level.
Cool. I'll just give up the dream. :)
*sigh*
Wow... I forget how negative people are.
You can make a blaster wizard/ sorcerer. There are lots of them out there and they are not entirely terrible, particularly if they mix up tactics and take things like haste also. There are also *some* situations where they do quite well, it's just fairly limited and often you don't know until you try it.
Listen to 0gre. Ignore the nay-sayers. Unless you play in Land of the Munchking, you can play a blaster and make a difference. You don't need to play the very best possible character in order to have fun.
While it is true that blaster wizard won't measure up to a warrior when it comes to turning a single enemy into a juicy corpse, they can do quite well when it comes to multiple enemies.
Plus, the advantage of the arcane classes is that you don't have to overspecialise in evocations in order to be a blaster. Warriors have a fairly limited approach to fighting enemies, usually: They hit them with their weapon.
You can play an arcanist with many a blasting spell but also with other magic. You can decide whether to blast the enemy, hex him, or support your party depending on the situation.
If you want to boost this stuff a little, look into the evoker specialisation for wizards (as well as a few wizard options from the APG) or some of the sorcerer bloodlines, or even the witch with the right patron (though they're geared more toward hexing enemies).
Arcanist classes will usually allow you to get a well-rounded repertoire of both blaster spells and other magic, even if your specialisation (i.e. wizard's school, sorcerer's bloodline or witch's hex) grants you mainly blasting abilities.
I guess you could also look into the alchemist and his bombs, which are arcane artillery of sorts, too. You don't receive unlimited bombs, but you can get quite a few, and if you focus on bombs, you can get quite a few of those (and let them have nice effects on top of their damage).
Cool. I'll just give up the dream. :)
It depends actually. As an example, from a campaing.
In one full of outsiders, you will struggle a bit. In one full of humanoids, betetr is many in large groups, it will be a blast (pun intended).
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Half-Orc Sorcerer, Orc Bloodline, Favored Class Bonus = +1/2 sorc level to fire spell damage.
At 8th level, Scorching Ray hits twice for 4d6+8 and 4d6+4, respectively (unless the favored class bonus applies to multiple rays, which I am assuming it does not). Fireball does 8d6+12.
For extra ridiculousness, keep intimidate maxed, grab Weapon Focus (ray) and Dazzling Display, and make your enemies cover in fear of your fire before you burn them.
Not quite as impressive as a Raging Barbarian, but definitely functional damage as far as DPR goes, and loads of fun to boot.
Blasters are dead, they just went orc.
Blast sucks vs single targets and generally does fairly poorly against mid to high CR monsters in groups because the HPs simply scale faster than then damage from spells.
Blast spells are always going to be useful in frying or freezing a large number of minions or mooks though. Depending on where the GM sets the bar for minions this can result in a single blast being able to eliminate a large percentage of the extraneous combatants in the field.
Metamagic can help but honestly the cost simply gets too high for the benefit without having one or more ways of reducing the metamagic modifier. Unfortunately metamagic reducers are generally poorly designed and end up buffing the wrong spells. SoL spells don't need a ton of metamagic to be awesome, evocation spells do.
If the OP is ok with conversions, he should take a look at some of the warmage conversions that floated around here on these boards a while back. It requires converting/including 3.5 material, but I know I loved the warmage I played in the last 3.5 game i played in even at low levels. He was quite the blunt instrument...as they say, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Thanks for the continued encouragement. And you say the Orcs of Golarian is the one with the half-orc thing I need? I guess I should order it and check it out. :)
I tend to not like stuff with lots of metamagic and me having to carry around rods and rings and codpieces just so I can do an uber effect once per day, and I tend to not like crazy multiclassing. But if I can stack the +1/level and +1/2levels things, that could be pretty sweet.
Thanks!
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As an additional suggestion I'd check out the Gnome 'pyromaniac' alternate racial trait, the Gnome's Wizard favoured class option of adding additional 'uses per day' to class abilities, as well as the 'Fire School' elementalist Wizard from the APG.
The Starsoul Sorcerer bloodline is also worth a look since the Bloodline Arcana adds a little something to every save-based evocation, and the Minute Meteors, whilst low damage, have an interesting area effect (although column-style areas may be of limited use in some games).
The Elemental Sorcerer bloodline from the core book is also worth a look - the arcana in particular allows you to pull the 'energy substitution' trick mentioned above for any energy damage based spells (although only to swop that damage for your choosen energy type), and the Elemental Ray gives more blasting per day, even if the damage is low. The Elemental Burst at level 9 is nice though, and has no built-in damage cap as you level, unlike a lot of the blasting spells.
And don't forget to take Acid Splash and / or Ray of Frost... sure, the damage sucks, but they let you blast stuff all day long just for the role-play effect of being 'a guy who likes to blast stuff'...
Oh, and the Point Blank Shot Feat is, of course, your friend if you're going to be chucking rays and the like about.
EDIT: Oh, and the Ifrit race is worth a look if you have Bestiary 2, since they make really good elemental (fire) bloodline Sorcerers.
Thanks gang! It looks like I'll be able to piece something together for my next character.
I am a little confused about the Orc Bloodline thing in the Orcs of Golarion. How does that differ from the APG Half-Orc option? I can already get the 1/2levels for Fire from the APG for half-orc sorcerers, and if I pick a dragon type with Fire as the energy type, that'd give me another +1/die there. But what is the bonus from the Orcs of Golarian? Does it stack with the APG option, or is it the same option simply printed in an alternate location?
(I own the Core and the APG but I dont yet own the Orcs of Golarion).
I think the trait from the APG for making one spell have a -1 to the cost of metamagic stuff is pretty nice for Elemental spell. Shocking Grasp does look tempting for that, but since I like the bravery of being out of range, Magic Missile looks tasty also. Shocking Grasp seems to cap out at 5d6, and Magic Missile caps out at 5d4+5, so I cant see any reason to pick Shocking Grasp over Magic Missile. Because as a Half-Orc Draconic with the Half-Orc thing, at level 10 it would be 5d6 + 15 compared to 5d4 + 20. The average damage is the same, but Magic Missile is ranged.
Hmm.
The orc bloodline is in the PFSRD. The gentleman who maintains it does a good job keeping it current with OGL stuff.
Dont' play a blaster with Shocking Grasp...it requires you to be in Melee Range. At the least burning hands, Magic Missile is better, and Scorching Ray probably overall the best without MM reduction.
==Aelryinth
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The Favored class option only applies to fire spells(like fireball), while the Bloodline Arcanan applies to any spell that deals damage(like Acid Arrow).
Cool. Yeah, I would probably be a Half-Orc with the Blood-Line thing that gives me +1/2levels for Fire and stack it with the Draconic sorcerer for the +1/level. Then I could take the trait for -1 metamagic level for Magic Missile and then take the Elemental Spell metamagic feat, and Point Blank/Precice as soon as I can.
That would let me have a level 1 spell (magic missile with free Elemental Spell to fire), a level 2 spell (scorching ray), and a level 3 spell (fireball) all with the damage bonus of 1.5/level (effectively).
I would probably mostly take fire attack spells, and then use crowd control spells against anything I couldnt blast with Fire. If I get metamagic rods to buff spells later, then great.
Thanks!
Down the road, look into ongoing damage effects such as Ball Lightning and Contagious Flame
Free Action: 5 beams of 4d6 fire damage
Swift Action: Quickened Damage spell
Move Action: Move the 3d6 lighening balls around (i think there are 5 of them)
Standard Action: Damage spell
If you can stomach an arcane trickster, and your GM will let you apply sneak attack damage (some are picky), that is just more d6s on the pile.
Buy lots of six-siders...you will need them.
I hope Ultimate Magic adresses a blaster mage
Barring that, whats the best way currently to make an arcane blaster that isn't totally laughable?
Do the best classes in the game really need to also be good at damage?
To me, this is the equivalent of wanting to play a fighter who is good at all of the knowledge and social skills. You've already said you want something the class doesn't really do.