I guess spellcasters in your game never participate in combat? They don't need spells that do combat maneuvers? Spells that affect combat rolls and AC? Spells to influence vehicle combat? Your paladins, rangers, bards, and clerics never participate in combat with magic?
They do, that's the thing. in 3.5 every book that came out was half spells, it became "if you can think of it there is a spell for it"
We don't want the casters to do everything, you want to have better AC? or do combat maneuvers? I hope to god you pick a class good at that instead of just picking those spells for the day. Why have a fighter when my wizard can cast three spells and emulate him perfectly?
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If enemies were mounted in Griffins, the favorite mount of the Sable Company of Korvosa, they would be untouchable by cannons and firearms, while igniting their buildings with dropped alchemist fires from the sky, for example, and the firearms have no hope of retaliation in the least.
This brings to mind a WWII-esque carpet-bombing scenario using griffins (holding an alchemist fire in each paw) and a rider with a basket full of alchemist fire being dumped on a target. A few dozen "bombers" could make for some serious damage. Hmmmm.../threadjack
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So, we've got this message, loud and clear. We are looking at a number of different ways to address this issue. You have to understand that we have a few conflicting interests here that we have to serve.[...]Give us some time here folks.. and some patience. We'll get it right.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
We're trying to find the balanced middle ground between all of those things. And because we know we're not perfect, that's why we do open playtests for this sort of thing--so we can get feedback and revise the design.
So give us feedback. Telling us your concerns is helpful. Ranting isn't helpful. Pointing out potential problems is helpful. Taking your marbles and going home isn't helpful. Saying that you don't want this in your campaign at all isn't helpful. Playtest. Give us data. We're going to do our very best to make this balanced and fun--all the while keeping in mind the constraints we've set out for these options.
Huh... gentlemen... (Jason, SKR, SRM) I just ate dill pickles, and I think I had an epiphany... or at least a good idea your design team should maybe discuss...
I think I found a way to make the gunslinger realistic (slow to reload) yet as powerful as a bowman (who can fire a lot of arrows per round) AND do away with that Touch AC thing.
Here it goes.
Give the gunslinger the ability to perform a full attack action with one bullet. Yes, it's great isn't it? :) I know... I know... it's genius you might say, but no, gents, I assure you. It's the dill pickles I ate. Popeye cannot take credit for his deeds: it's the spinach. Me: the dill pickles.
I will not go into details: you fine Paizo folks do details much more awesomely than my fragmented "midnight-while-watching-Jon-Stewart" mind can come up with... but basically, the idea is that an 11th level gunslinger can basically take a five foot step and shoot a foe and roll three times for damage (BAB +11/+6/+1). This makes the gunslinger special and realistic: while the bowman can spread his shots at three different enemies +11/+6/+1, the gunman shoots one foe +11/+6/+1. It does a lot of good things: it reduces the cost of ammo for a character 'cause he only needs to shoot once round... and do as much damage as a bowman.
With that feature one could comfortably take away the Touch AC "perk" you added to firearms. This makes a high level gunslinger do a LOT of damage with a single bullet (someone who can't shoot a gun doesn't do much damage, while a sniper can hit the right organs) and thus you no longer need a fancy touch AC subsystem/sub-rule (this fixes the 8 AC iron golem problem).
Of course, a lot of grit abilities and other things would need re-adjusting, but then again.... you guys rock with the details and fine adjusts!
Hope this can somehow help! :)
watching too much who shot jfk? magic bullet theory
I wouldn't mind if anyone wanted to playtest my idea. I belive it solves the majority of the classes issues, while retaining balance with other classes.
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watching too much who shot jfk? magic bullet theory
You Sir, are not respecting the pickle!
(Seriously, I'm so stoked about this idea... imagine a rogue/gunslinger with BAB 11/6/1 and +3d6 sneak attack that is invisible... shooting one musket bullet - assuming all 11/6/1 attack rolls hit - for 1d12+3d6+DEX + 1d12+3d6+DEX + 1d12+3d6+DEX )
This brings back respect for the bullet! :) :) :)
You Sir, are not respecting the pickle!
(Seriously, I'm so stoked about this idea... imagine a rogue/gunslinger with BAB 11/6/1 and +3d6 sneak attack that is invisible... shooting one musket bullet - assuming all 11/6/1 attack rolls hit - for 1d12+3d6+DEX + 1d12+3d6+DEX + 1d12+3d6+DEX )
This brings back respect for the bullet! :) :) :)
Except it doesn't explain why the same bullet shot with a standard action doesn't do as much
You Sir, are not respecting the pickle!
I'm not sure I understand...
I do encourage anyone to take a look at my idea though. Personally, I think it makes an even better alternate class for monk than as one for fighter. Everything just falls into place.
Except it doesn't explain why the same bullet shot with a standard action doesn't do as muchYou Sir, are not respecting the pickle!
(Seriously, I'm so stoked about this idea... imagine a rogue/gunslinger with BAB 11/6/1 and +3d6 sneak attack that is invisible... shooting one musket bullet - assuming all 11/6/1 attack rolls hit - for 1d12+3d6+DEX + 1d12+3d6+DEX + 1d12+3d6+DEX )
This brings back respect for the bullet! :) :) :)
Less accurate, since you didn't spend a full-round aiming.
On a side note, this actually isn't a terrible idea. Back on the WotC website, this was actually the method suggested for dealing with situations in the Star Wars RPG to mimic things that occurred during the films. In Episode I, Qi-Gon Jinn slices his way through a blast door in a round or two, and it was asked how could you mimic this with the RPG rules; and the answer was that Qi-Gon was effectively using his Full-Attack against the door, allowing him to inflict enough damage with his saber to cut through the very thick (and high HP) door (since lightsabers only dealt 2d8 + *d8 + mods damage).
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Less accurate, since you didn't spend a full-round aiming.
Exactly! Honorable Ashiel, we are on the same wavelength! Please rush to your fridge and ingest a dill pickle!
Love the Qi-Gon analogy btw! More attacks into ONE blow = Slow Is Good!! :) :) :)
PS: the Crisis Core Final Fantasy VII game actually uses the Slow Is Good concept - one materia allows you to make one gigantic attack but it's SLOW and enemies with fast attacks like daggers are lining dozens of stabs on you while you SLOWLY overhand chops your buster sword in their direction... putting much back into it.......
PDK, I was just thinking of something similar while reading the first page of the thread.
Instead of "full attacking", you use your attack rolls aiming your shot, and for each attack you sacrifice aiming (and hit with) you add damage as if you'd hit with an attack.
That could work very well with a gun...imagine a x4 crit when your damage is 4d8+60 (4 attacks at the 1d8+15 mentioned earlier). Actually...might wanna have those "aim" actions roll their own crit confirmations if they get them...still, it could work I think.
Less accurate, since you didn't spend a full-round aiming.Exactly! Honorable Ashiel, we are on the same wavelength! Please rush to your fridge and ingest a dill pickle!
Love the Qi-Gon analogy btw! More attacks into ONE blow = Slow Is Good!! :) :) :)
PS: the Crisis Core Final Fantasy VII game actually uses the Slow Is Good concept - one materia allows you to make one gigantic attack but it's SLOW and enemies with fast attacks like daggers are lining dozens of stabs on you while you SLOWLY overhand chops your buster sword in their direction... putting much back into it.......
Yes, I love dill pickles. I wish we had some in the house. I already ate the last we had and drank the contents of the jar. =(
PS: the Crisis Core Final Fantasy VII game actually uses the Slow Is Good concept - one materia allows you to make one gigantic attack but it's SLOW and enemies with fast attacks like daggers are lining dozens of stabs on you while you SLOWLY overhand chops your buster sword in their direction... putting much back into it......."
Reminds me of Parasite Eve, where your weapon damage was split over the rate of fire; so lower rate of fire was better; 'cause dealing 300 damage in 1 shot was better than 9 shots.
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Yes, I love dill pickles. I wish we had some in the house. I already ate the last we had and drank the contents of the jar. =(
That is amazing. Yeah... I would do that... totally. If I'd ever ran out of dill pickles. Which I never have. I usually eat two of them, then the jar stays in the fridge for six months... then I throw them out. And buy a new jar... so there's alway a fresh supply.
The only difference tonight is that I've reopened the six month old jar and had the three pickles that were left in there... :P
Yes, I love dill pickles. I wish we had some in the house. I already ate the last we had and drank the contents of the jar. =(That is amazing. Yeah... I would do that... totally. If I'd ever ran out of dill pickles. Which I never have. I usually eat two of them, then the jar stays in the fridge for six months... then I throw them out. And buy a new jar... so there's alway a fresh supply.
The only difference tonight is that I've reopened the six month old jar and had the three pickles that were left in there... :P
Mmmmnnn, vintage. :3
someone please explain to me more HOW full attacking with one bullet would work? is this just simulating accuracy and deadliness as the slinger goes up in level he becomes more deadly.
So effectively with a 6/1 attack, lets say I missed with the 1 but hit with the 6, then it's just i wasnt as accurate?
By why then wouldnt i just vital strike?
And, what if I had the 12/7/2 could i shoot the 12, and the vital strike with the 7/2 for double dice damage?
the way i see it by making this a class feature you would totally circumvent the vital strike (it would be a worthless punk in comparison)
It would however bring deadliness to the bullet, in the hands of a skilled gun fighter/sniper.
Interesting, even though it totally punks vital strike.
Funny, i could also see this working as well.
So, we've got this message, loud and clear. We are looking at a number of different ways to address this issue. You have to understand that we have a few conflicting interests here that we have to serve.[...]Give us some time here folks.. and some patience. We'll get it right.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingWe're trying to find the balanced middle ground between all of those things. And because we know we're not perfect, that's why we do open playtests for this sort of thing--so we can get feedback and revise the design.
So give us feedback. Telling us your concerns is helpful. Ranting isn't helpful. Pointing out potential problems is helpful. Taking your marbles and going home isn't helpful. Saying that you don't want this in your campaign at all isn't helpful. Playtest. Give us data. We're going to do our very best to make this balanced and fun--all the while keeping in mind the constraints we've set out for these options.
Huh... gentlemen... (Jason, SKR, SRM) I just ate dill pickles, and I think I had an epiphany... or at least a good idea your design team should maybe discuss...
I think I found a way to make the gunslinger realistic (slow to reload) yet as powerful as a bowman (who can fire a lot of arrows per round) AND do away with that Touch AC thing.
Here it goes.
Give the gunslinger the ability to perform a full attack action with one bullet.
This. Please, this! It keeps the damage potential for full attacking, makes sense in the context of aiming the bullet for more damage, and keeps verisimilitude without requiring some sort of lame revolver which shoots projectiles as damaging as spitballs.
It will also help to keep from hemorrhaging as much gold on ammunition, though that still needs to be toned down.
The thing it does not do is address the issue of attacking multiple targets. Which, frankly, I'm ok with. If you were to fire two flintlock pistols by full attacking, perhaps you could divide the attacks equally between pistols.
So, we've got this message, loud and clear. We are looking at a number of different ways to address this issue. You have to understand that we have a few conflicting interests here that we have to serve.[...]Give us some time here folks.. and some patience. We'll get it right.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingWe're trying to find the balanced middle ground between all of those things. And because we know we're not perfect, that's why we do open playtests for this sort of thing--so we can get feedback and revise the design.
So give us feedback. Telling us your concerns is helpful. Ranting isn't helpful. Pointing out potential problems is helpful. Taking your marbles and going home isn't helpful. Saying that you don't want this in your campaign at all isn't helpful. Playtest. Give us data. We're going to do our very best to make this balanced and fun--all the while keeping in mind the constraints we've set out for these options.
Huh... gentlemen... (Jason, SKR, SRM) I just ate dill pickles, and I think I had an epiphany... or at least a good idea your design team should maybe discuss...
well if you had TWO pistols and did a FULL attack (as long as you had TWF) you could full attack with both pistols just like normal TWFing.
This is truly a genius pickle, and this guy went and ate it! This pivkle could have had a long and prosperous career as a JR. developer at Paizo, not it's bathing in digestive juices.
I think I found a way to make the gunslinger realistic (slow to reload) yet as powerful as a bowman (who can fire a lot of arrows per round) AND do away with that Touch AC thing.
Here it goes.
Give the gunslinger the ability to perform a full attack action with one bullet.
This. Please, this! It keeps the damage potential for full attacking, makes sense in the context of aiming the bullet for more damage, and keeps verisimilitude without requiring some sort of lame revolver which shoots projectiles as damaging as spitballs.
It will also help to keep from hemorrhaging as much gold on ammunition, though that still needs to be toned down.
The thing it does not do is address the issue of attacking multiple targets. Which, frankly, I'm ok with. If you were to fire two flintlock pistols by...
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Interesting, even though it totally punks vital strike.
Funny, i could also see this working as well.
AMEN brother! not all classes are meant for vital strike. I've always used vital strike for melee builds myself (never took it with ranged builds, as there are so many ranged feats that make you more awesome already - manyshot, shot on the run, rapid shot, etc.)
Vital Strike would still have a place, because it's a standard action, where full attacking (even with aim "shots") is a full round action. Which may be not a big deal for the longer range ranged weapons, but given that pistols are 20' and muskets only 40', it's more important for a gun user (especially given the touch attack within first increment thing).
Everybody come on over to the dill pickle thread, Purple and I have some ideas brewing!
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PDK, when I first read your idea my reaction was WTF. But as I read further on in the thread I realized it's exactly the same thing as a thought I had a couple hours ago about having the gunslinger convert his iterative attacks into damage dice multipliers. It does address the "long reload time denies iterative attacks" problem without adding a feat tax just to make the class as effective as any other full BAB class.
[PDK presents two dill pickles to Freesword]"Welcome Pickle Brother: with or without garlic?[As soon as PDK speaks, Freesword notices PDK had the garlic ones...]
I guess spellcasters in your game never participate in combat? They don't need spells that do combat maneuvers? Spells that affect combat rolls and AC? Spells to influence vehicle combat? Your paladins, rangers, bards, and clerics never participate in combat with magic?(there are more pages in Ultimate Combat devoted to spells than there are devoted to gunslinger + firearms combined)Please say "just kidding."
Please tell me you aren't turning Ultimate Combat into yet another Fun Book For Wizards.
How much stuff for fighters can I expect from Ultimate Magic?
Here's my problem: Not every book needs to be for wizards. Wizards are allowed to have books wherein they have little to no content.
And quite frankly? No. Wizards do not need spells that do combat maneuvers. They do not need spells that influence vehicle combat, or combat rolls, or AC. Wizards do not need to do the things other classes do at all. These are all things that not-wizards should be doing.
Now, if this is just for paladins, rangers, and bards, then I actually have little to no problem! But clerics, wizards, and druids? Absolutely no, they don't need any of those things. If I want to be really good at combat, the answer should not be "Make a wizard."
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I guess spellcasters in your game never participate in combat? They don't need spells that do combat maneuvers? Spells that affect combat rolls and AC? Spells to influence vehicle combat? Your paladins, rangers, bards, and clerics never participate in combat with magic?(there are more pages in Ultimate Combat devoted to spells than there are devoted to gunslinger + firearms combined)Please say "just kidding."
Please tell me you aren't turning Ultimate Combat into yet another Fun Book For Wizards.How much stuff for fighters can I expect from Ultimate Magic?
Here's my problem: Not every book needs to be for wizards. Wizards are allowed to have books wherein they have little to no content.
And quite frankly? No. Wizards do not need spells that do combat maneuvers. They do not need spells that influence vehicle combat, or combat rolls, or AC. Wizards do not need to do the things other classes do at all. These are all things that not-wizards should be doing.
Now, if this is just for paladins, rangers, and bards, then I actually have little to no problem! But clerics, wizards, and druids? Absolutely no, they don't need any of those things. If I want to be really good at combat, the answer should not be "Make a wizard."
Some Magus and EK spells wouldn't hurt, too.
Let me put it another way:
For many of us the most frustrating thing in 3e and the most welcoming thing in PF is that 3e had far, far, far too many spells for wizards and clerics. There was a spell for every occasion, and I believe literally no book didn't have a wizard spell in it. Even the psionics book had wizard spells.
Please do not go back down that path.
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Have to second that. It is frustrating when casters are constantly stealing the non-casters' thunder. I've been looking forward to Ultimate Combat in the hopes that it would reinforce the non-caster classes roles and niches, and to give them things that wizards, clerics, and such can't have or duplicate. I really did think this was going to be the book for non-casters, considering casters already get Ultimate Magic all to themselves.
It's just something I'm genuinely worried about concerning a game I love.
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Let me put it another way:
For many of us the most frustrating thing in 3e and the most welcoming thing in PF is that 3e had far, far, far too many spells for wizards and clerics. There was a spell for every occasion, and I believe literally no book didn't have a wizard spell in it. Even the psionics book had wizard spells.
Please do not go back down that path.
+1
The more spells enter publication, the more options that casters have every morning (given the possibility of access to these spells) while martial classes are stuck with their unchanging feat selections.
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Let me put it another way:
For many of us the most frustrating thing in 3e and the most welcoming thing in PF is that 3e had far, far, far too many spells for wizards and clerics. There was a spell for every occasion, and I believe literally no book didn't have a wizard spell in it. Even the psionics book had wizard spells.
Please do not go back down that path.
I wish I could 'like' this post.
Over.
And over.
And over...
And ooooveeeeeeeeeeer.........
ashiels gunslinger is fine, but its not paizo's gunslinger, and so its no good for this playtest.You said yourself Paizo's Gunslinger has failed and you won't use it.
So why not use something that DOES work?Who cares if it's Paizos or not?
her requires six shooters and lever actions to work.
Not looking for that, too western, spaghetti western in theory of basis is fine, but I dont want six shooter and rifles.
Paizo will fix their gunslinger, they arent going to leave it like it is.
Spaghetti western IS what "Gunslinger" implies.
Except it doesn't explain why the same bullet shot with a standard action doesn't do as much
It's called 'Aiming'.
I may give this a shot.
Respect to the pickle.
Yeah....I agree Pendagast that the misfire mechanic is good and that the damage output might need to be tweaked. However, I would like to see a six-shooter, or at least a sidebar in the Ultimate Combat book for an option as such. Again, I like the misfire mechanic, but Cartigan is correct - gunslinger implies the old spaghetti western wielder. You would need to call the class a "musketeer" (minus the swordplay) or even a "minute man" for it to be more Renaissance for how the guns are designed to be a single shot.Spaghetti western IS what "Gunslinger" implies.
her requires six shooters and lever actions to work.Not looking for that, too western, spaghetti western in theory of basis is fine, but I dont want six shooter and rifles.
Paizo will fix their gunslinger, they arent going to leave it like it is.
Firstly, minute man or musketeer would be well into Early Modern. Renaissance would be something like an arquebus, maybe a matchlock.
Secondly, PDK and I found a way to let the Gunslinger have the full attack mechanic while still keeping the flintlock flavor, which I think doesn't quite take a dump over technological verisimilitude quite as much as revolvers do.
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Why minus the swordplay, Merlin?
Gunslinger is a fast-BAB class. Surely they can pull out a sword and stab people once they've shot all the bullets they have loaded, if they like? And if most gunslingers have high dexterity and low strength to shoot better, then all the more reason for them to use rapiers!
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Why minus the swordplay, Merlin?
Gunslinger is a fast-BAB class. Surely they can pull out a sword and stab people once they've shot all the bullets they have loaded, if they like? And if most gunslingers have high dexterity and low strength to shoot better, then all the more reason for them to use rapiers!
Yes. The Pickle Brotherhood has already discussed the rapier/pistol Greater Two-Weapon Fighting way.... it's awesome! GTWF gives you 3 off hand attacks -- say the pistol -- you fire once only and roll all off hand attacks in the one bullet. GO TO THE PICKLE RESPECT THREAD!! :)
Pirates = fighter/rogue/gunslingers + pickles! :)
Why minus the swordplay, Merlin?
Gunslinger is a fast-BAB class. Surely they can pull out a sword and stab people once they've shot all the bullets they have loaded, if they like? And if most gunslingers have high dexterity and low strength to shoot better, then all the more reason for them to use rapiers!
The problem with that is the class isnt made for it. They would be less effective wielding those swords then warriors. At least warriors can devote feats at odd levels to swordplay, where is the feat starved gunslinger going to find room for weapon finesse, let alone power attack and the like? Its usually not a good sign if you are outclassed by npc classes.
The problem with that is the class isnt made for it. They would be less effective wielding those swords then warriors. At least warriors can devote feats at odd levels to swordplay, where is the feat starved gunslinger going to find room for weapon finesse, let alone power attack and the like? Its usually not a good sign if you are outclassed by npc classes.Why minus the swordplay, Merlin?
Gunslinger is a fast-BAB class. Surely they can pull out a sword and stab people once they've shot all the bullets they have loaded, if they like? And if most gunslingers have high dexterity and low strength to shoot better, then all the more reason for them to use rapiers!
There's also the problem where you don't have any means of actually damaging the enemy with a rapier since you'll be doing weapon damage and just weapon damage.
There's also the problem where you don't have any means of actually damaging the enemy with a rapier since you'll be doing weapon damage and just weapon damage.The problem with that is the class isnt made for it. They would be less effective wielding those swords then warriors. At least warriors can devote feats at odd levels to swordplay, where is the feat starved gunslinger going to find room for weapon finesse, let alone power attack and the like? Its usually not a good sign if you are outclassed by npc classes.Why minus the swordplay, Merlin?
Gunslinger is a fast-BAB class. Surely they can pull out a sword and stab people once they've shot all the bullets they have loaded, if they like? And if most gunslingers have high dexterity and low strength to shoot better, then all the more reason for them to use rapiers!
Thats more or less part of what I meant but yea, without substantial changes the gunslinger does work as the musketeer where you fire a few pistols and then run in with a blade at all.
There's also the problem where you don't have any means of actually damaging the enemy with a rapier since you'll be doing weapon damage and just weapon damage.The problem with that is the class isnt made for it. They would be less effective wielding those swords then warriors. At least warriors can devote feats at odd levels to swordplay, where is the feat starved gunslinger going to find room for weapon finesse, let alone power attack and the like? Its usually not a good sign if you are outclassed by npc classes.Why minus the swordplay, Merlin?
Gunslinger is a fast-BAB class. Surely they can pull out a sword and stab people once they've shot all the bullets they have loaded, if they like? And if most gunslingers have high dexterity and low strength to shoot better, then all the more reason for them to use rapiers!
Agreed. Check this out, I got this really cool class for you that should be able to wield guns and a sword and rock the projects while making it look good. Here, it's posted on teh internet!
Training someone to use a longbow takes years and a lot of strength. Training someone to use a gun to the same level of accuracy takes weeks. Yet both cost just one feat, and the game doesn't have any rules for regulating how long it takes to reach level 1 in a real class.
Maybe guns should be martial or even simple weapons to reflect their relative ease of use regardless of their commonality -- that's the logic behind where the crossbows fall, isn't it?
A real "gun character" will want a bunch of gun-related feats beyond proficiency, anyway, so just like with the crossbow you're not losing the ability to differentiate there.
Alternately, maybe the nonproficiency penalty for guns works differently -- impacting accuracy very little but misfires/reload a lot. I'm not sure I love creating an exception there but it could be another angle.