My group took a stab at CotCT, and we got through the first book before the GM flamed out and the campaign died. We all took a campaign trait and we all took pains to tie ourselves to the city in our backgrounds, and we successfully completed the first book without much trouble.
BUT.
When we finished the book and Lamm was toast and we took stock of our situation, we saw that we had a decent amount of money, some skill to make our way in the world, and that Korvosa was a horrible, horrible, horrible place to live. The rulers (whether king or queen, rightful or usurper) were at best hopelessly out of touch and at worst outright evil. The city governance was cruel, corrupt, and contemptible at its best. The masses of the people were hopelessly poor, unskilled, disenfranchised, and so miserable that their lives seemed impossible to improve by any means we could ever command. The bourgeoisie was contemptible and eager to ape the latest Chelaxian vileness. Speaking of the latest Chelaxian vileness, there was a huge magical academy focusing on devil summoning that wielded vast power and influence. The few rich had their boot right across the throats of the masses of poor, racial discrimination was official policy. In other words, the place was a vast festering pimple with literally no bright spots. None of us could think of any reason to stay there other than the fact that the GM had dropped money on the AP and that was what it dictated. Had the campaign continued, we would have faced serious motivational problems in trying to keep our characters involved rather than just throwing up our hands, taking the couple of people we each cared about from our backgrounds, and moving someplace nicer (e.g. nearly anywhere not named Korvosa).
So, my question is, is this a problem of the AP and the city, or was the presentation of it flawed? I mean it when I say that each PC, even my relentlessly cheerful streetwise thief, was forced to admit at one point or another that the city would be better off burned to the ground and the heads of almost everyone with any wealth, power, or influence put on pikes. Is there something that the GM could have done that he didn't do to motivate us? Or does Korvosa really suck that bad?
Two issues that have been touched on repeatedly in this section of the forum. Its important for the DM to both make sure that Lamm is not the be all and end all of the groups association but merely the initial reason the group got together simply because this thread is tied up in the first adventure.
Secondly - and more germain to your post. Korvosa really is pretty bad - its not pure bad but its not a nice place. It is absolutely critical that the DM emphasize to the players that they must write into their characters backgrounds that leaving of their own violation is not an option. The AP is about Korvosa...its kind of in need of heros.
In particular the DM should probably go out of his way to point out the good people caught up in all of this - your average poor citizen is, after all, not an evil wretch. Not everyone in the military or even the upper classes are evil, in fact most are not.
Two issues that have been touched on repeatedly in this section of the forum. Its important for the DM to both make sure that Lamm is not the be all and end all of the groups association but merely the initial reason the group got together simply because this thread is tied up in the first adventure.
Secondly - and more germain to your post. Korvosa really is pretty bad - its not pure bad but its not a nice place. It is absolutely critical that the DM emphasize to the players that they must write into their characters backgrounds that leaving of their own violation is not an option. The AP is about Korvosa...its kind of in need of heros.
In particular the DM should probably go out of his way to point out the good people caught up in all of this - your average poor citizen is, after all, not an evil wretch. Not everyone in the military or even the upper classes are evil, in fact most are not.
Yeah, I don't think either of those happened at all in our groups. I don't recall meeting anyone (except for whatsherface of the guard) that I didn't want to kill. I mean except for her, there was nobody we ran into that I thought wouldn't leave the world a brighter place for dying. We definitely had no motivation to hang together after killing Lamm, because there was no sense of anything else going on that we could impact. Sure the king might have been assassinated and the queen might have been responsible, but there was no sense that we could DO anything about it. And while we were all tied there in our backgrounds, none of us were SO tied that, with a few thousand GP, we couldn't pack up our loved ones and go someplace less horrifying.
I did GM all 6 AP's and it has all to do with presentation IMO as well as what Jeremy mentioned below. What ties these characters to try and become more than what they are? What drives them to want to make Korvosa a better place then it is?
I didn't play it soo bad, but mad it more and more that way as Lleosa took more and more control of the city.
The AP is about Korvosa...its kind of in need of heros.
Jeremy's quote says it best. Why rush off to a dragon's lair when there is so much 'good' to do in the city?
That's one of the reasons my players LOVE this city. It needs their help. I presented this as a desperate plea from Field Marshal Cressida Kroft - the "one good person" you mentioned.
Secondly, as I DM I played-up the Harrow reading - showing that the PCs have a grander part to play in all this (so while normally, low-level PCs might think they can't do much to change things, the Harrow reading says they will).
Third, I have some sneaky PCs (a rogue and urban ranger). This city of scum & villainy presents waaaaay more opportunities than any dungeon could.
Jeremy's quote says it best. Why rush off to a dragon's lair when there is so much 'good' to do in the city?That's one of the reasons my players LOVE this city. It needs their help. I presented this as a desperate plea from Field Marshal Cressida Kroft - the "one good person" you mentioned.
Secondly, as I DM I played-up the Harrow reading - showing that the PCs have a grander part to play in all this (so while normally, low-level PCs might think they can't do much to change things, the Harrow reading says they will).
Third, I have some sneaky PCs (a rogue and urban ranger). This city of scum & villainy presents waaaaay more opportunities than any dungeon could.
We had a ranger and rogue too, but it just seemed like...well, like the game wasn't worth the candle. Like even if we killed the top 200 people in the city, the next 200 who took over would be just as bad or worse. As the city was presented, it just seemed like there was no point in trying to be heroic because everyone in the city (except Cressida Kroft) was just awful. Why be heroic and try to improve the lot of people who would be just as bad as the ones you just got rid of? Again, I'm guessing it was presentation.
...because everyone in the city (except Cressida Kroft) was just awful.
Hahahha - you bring up a funny story I'll share:
When my PCs were sent to capture Verik Vancaskerkin at 'All the World's Meat', they observed his men giving away free meat to the poor.
They almost didn't turn him in because they thought of him as a 'Robin Hood' figure!
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Strange I did not see Korvosa as truly irredeemable. It wasn't great under Eodred. Yes the Acadamae was strong in Devil summoning, but according to the Guide to Korvosa they actually have more enchanters than any other specialist. Kressida Kroft (the commander of the city guard) is a good person doing the best she can in a bad situation. The Seneschal was a good person as is the head of the Sable Company. So yes I see a corrupt city but far from the completely unredeemable pit of filth.
Once Illeosa comes to power that is when everything really goes down hill. The characters are supposed to be from Korvosa and are supposed to find motivation in redeeming the city.
Honestly in my game there has been no problem, it is too bad it did not work out for your group.
Graywulfe
PS: typing this at work and lost my train of thought so it probably rambles a bit.
Hahahha - you bring up a funny story I'll share:When my PCs were sent to capture Verik Vancaskerkin at 'All the World's Meat', they observed his men giving away free meat to the poor.
They almost didn't turn him in because they thought of him as a 'Robin Hood' figure!
So did we! When we found out what he was doing, I recall sighing and muttering, "Eeeeeeverybody's an a-hole."
Also the players may have had a bit of a misconception about the AP in general. The focus of this AP is to figure out what is going on in Korvosa and ultimately stop it. The reason for doing this can be whatever the PCs want but the goal remains the same. If the group does not share this as a goal then it will be difficult for them to do anything. However this is true about ANY adventure. My character can walk up to the entrance to the "Tomb of Horrors" and say "Whats the point of going into this death trap?" and walk away, end of adventure. Or could say "Whats the point of leaving this farm and buying weapons and armor?", end of adventure. The players need to want to HAVE and adventures otherwise they wouldn't be adventurers, they would be experts or adepts or warriors - not PCs.
I think that was one of the issues. While we were told that we needed to have connections with Lamm and that most of the campaign would take place in the city (something that may not even be true, based on what I read). But we weren't told that we needed to have any reason to really want to save Korvosa and we certainly weren't given any examples in play about why we would want to, given that (almost) everyone we met was a jerk. We never got the background about Vancask...Vankas...Van. We never met Marcus Thalassinus. The GM left us no doubt right from the first that the queen was rotten to the core. So we never really felt connected.
Sounds like a problem in presentation. The GM didn't get you connected to the city.
I made sure every one of my PCs was connected as possible. In the end, I had someone playing a lawyer and a PC and his brother operating an orphanage with paladins of Erastil. They couldn't leave. They had to help the children.
Really? Everybody besides Cressida was someone you wanted to kill? Grau Soldado? Vencarlo Orisini? Zellara? Trinia Sabor? Thousand Bones?
Really? Everybody besides Cressida was someone you wanted to kill? Grau Soldado? Vencarlo Orisini? Zellara? Trinia Sabor? Thousand Bones?
As they were played. Grau was all right, I guess, but we didn't think much of him. Zellara was already dead, so she doesn't count. And Vencarlo was OK but we didn't trust him because he was the only person in the whole damned city who was really nice to us, so we assumed he had ulterior motives and wanted us dead. Trinia screwed us over and stole our stuff, so we regretted saving her ass. Thousand Bones was belligerent and a jerk to us.
Wow. I'm amazed your GM had Trinia steal your stuff.. That's nowhere within a million miles of her personality (essentially she's simply scared and doesn't understand how the opportunity of a lifetime has become her worst nightmare).
This certainly sounds like a case of how the city and its inhabitants were presented, combined with the Lamm-background issues which several campaigns have had problems with. While Korvosa is bad, it's not that bad.
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Really? Everybody besides Cressida was someone you wanted to kill? Grau Soldado? Vencarlo Orisini? Zellara? Trinia Sabor? Thousand Bones?As they were played. Grau was all right, I guess, but we didn't think much of him. Zellara was already dead, so she doesn't count. And Vencarlo was OK but we didn't trust him because he was the only person in the whole damned city who was really nice to us, so we assumed he had ulterior motives and wanted us dead. Trinia screwed us over and stole our stuff, so we regretted saving her ass. Thousand Bones was belligerent and a jerk to us.
This very very much sounds like a problem in how the setting was presented to the players. There are plenty of NPCs the party should meet in Book 1 and early in Book 2 who are not evil, not corrupt and not jerks (and in a couple of cases evil NPCs who should not come across that way).
Also, keep in mind that in the course of their adventures, the party is mostly interacting with either authority figures (some of whom are corrupt and evil) or the very dregs of society (generally clear bad guys). What perhaps was not made so clear to your group is that in between these two groups is an entire city of people who are just trying to make their way in life. Some will be good, some will be evil but the vast majority will be neutral but still generally decent people.
Almost any group of good aligned adventurers will see that, yes, there is something rotten in Korvosa ... but as heroes, and for the sake of those thousands of generally decent people just trying to make their way in life, it is up to us to try to make this a better place.
I think that another part of the problem might have been that the players did not tie their character backgrounds close enough to the city (whether this problem was really the players’ fault or the GMs I cannot say). Many people (both in a fantasy world and the real world) live in cities or countries where there is a high crime rate, a lot of criminals, and often unfortunately corrupt or incompetent government or law enforcement ... and very many of them do not leave, even if they have the money and opportunity to do so. This might be because they have family or friends they do not want to leave, they have business or social commitments, because they have always lived there and it is ‘better the devil you know’, because they are patriotic despite the faults, because they are idealistic and want to try to make things better or for dozens of other reasons. For the PCs to say ‘this place sucks, lets leave it to rot’ suggests that not a great deal has been done as far as their backgrounds to give them a reason to stay.
In our group we have two characters (brother and sister) who have extensive family in the city, including spouses, parents, siblings etc. The family (including the PCs) is involved in various business ventures and is trying to climb up in society. Leaving the city would be leaving all that behind. Another PC is a paladin of Abadar who is sees it as his duty to see that the city is cleaned up and prospers (he also has family connections). Another PC runs a business in the city and owns property. Another is a refugee from a far worse place (Galt) and sees the city as an opportunity for a new life, and also has a young daughter who she does not want to relocate again. Another is a member of the Korvosan Guard, and feels a duty to the city, as well as hoping to work his way up the ranks with his good work. You get the picture. All of these characters have a lot invested in the city in one way or another, and are willing to fight for it and its people, rather than look for somewhere ‘easier’ to live.
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I ran through the first 3 books of Curse before the game was put on indefinite hiatus.
I presented Korvosa a lot like Gotham City. Yes there's a lot of corruption, and the bad seems insurmountable, but your average guy on the street, or Joe Guardsman is still doing his best. The people are for the most part decent (if occasionally a bit stuffy and set in their ways). If Magnimar is New York, then Korvosa is Chicago or Boston. Yeah they got problems, but they got their pride.
Now if the PCs aren't happy with who's in charge, why don't they kick who's in charge to the curb and run the place themselves? If they are of the city then they should know it best after all.
Anyway, it's up to the GM to gauge their player's interest and adjust the campaign accordingly. It seems you got the raw end this time, but maybe you should run the campaign yourself, throw in those helpful NPCs to make Korvosa just a bit brighter.
Korvosa even has its own Batman...
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Really? Everybody besides Cressida was someone you wanted to kill? Grau Soldado? Vencarlo Orisini? Zellara? Trinia Sabor? Thousand Bones?As they were played. Grau was all right, I guess, but we didn't think much of him. Zellara was already dead, so she doesn't count. And Vencarlo was OK but we didn't trust him because he was the only person in the whole damned city who was really nice to us, so we assumed he had ulterior motives and wanted us dead. Trinia screwed us over and stole our stuff, so we regretted saving her ass. Thousand Bones was belligerent and a jerk to us.
Grau has his personal demons, but it should become clear that he is a good man who is having trouble doing the right thing, and the group should have good reason to help him. Admittedly, a lot of this is not revealed until right near the beginning of book 2 (in our game, after helping Grau’s family in book 2, some members of our group began to counsel him on his drinking problems, trying to convince him to once again become a useful member of society. He has become a useful ally in part of book 3).
Sure, Zellara is dead, but I’m surprised a good group would think she didn’t count; she should be symbolic of the good people in Korvosa that the group has an opportunity to help (even if, in her particular case, its a little too late).
Vencarlo actually is a good guy (even if he does have an ulterior motive of sorts).
It sounds like your GM played Trinia in a manner completely out of keeping with how she is presented in the book. She should have no reason to steal from the group (unless maybe in reaction to something they did to her?)
Thousand Bones is another good guy who is stuck between a rock and a hard place. He is trying to make Korvosa a better place in the face of racism and discrimination. I suppose he could be played as belligerent, but I think the GM made a poor choice (in our game he was quiet, sad and angry, but his anger was clearly directed elsewhere – not at the PCs).
In retrospect, ties to the city were definitely our weak point as players. In thinking it over, we had: a rogue (me) with a little sister whom he adored , but who had a "contract" with a brothel, an orphan who became a cleric of Pharasma, a ranger whose whole family was killed by Lamm, and a foreign dwarf who had gotten kicked out of the Academae. Once accounts were settled with Lamm, the only one who had ANY reason to stick around was me, and I wasted no time in busting my sister out of the brothel and shipping her off with several thousand GP to start a new life. Then I had no ties there either. That, coupled with so little active reason presented to save the place, made for the whole group wanting to head for the hills. The GM looked at our characters and deemed all our motivations sufficient, for what it's worth.
As far as "kicking the rulers to the curb," that's a tall order when you're 1st level. :-) It doesn't start to become a realistic aspiration until MUCH later. 1st level PCs are busy trying to avoid strong breezes or harsh looks that could kill them outright!
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GM done goofed. It sounds like the characterization for a great many of the NPCs and Korvosa itself got mangled.
He probably shouldn't have suggested that each of you focus on having a connection with Lamm as much as suggesting that each of you care about your home. When I started CotCT, the only things I truly required of the players was that they had to give a damn about their home city or something in it. We've had tons 'o fun after that.
If murdering the top 200 people in charge in Korvosa actually crossed any good character's mind as a viable option at any point, something went horribly wrong. Korvosa isn't a nice place, but it sure as hell sounds like it and its people were severely misrepresented.
Sure, Zellara is dead, but I’m surprised a good group would think she didn’t count; she should be symbolic of the good people in Korvosa that the group has an opportunity to help (even if, in her particular case, its a little too late).
For srs. Zellara serves as a great moral anchor for the party. Have to wonder exactly why she doesn't count. Especially when her entire purpose after the intro bit is to protect Korvosa.
Grau has his personal demons, but it should become clear that he is a good man who is having trouble doing the right thing, and the group should have good reason to help him. Admittedly, a lot of this is not revealed until right near the beginning of book 2 (in our game, after helping Grau’s family in book 2, some members of our group began to counsel him on his drinking problems, trying to convince him to once again become a useful member of society. He has become a useful ally in part of book 3).
Huh, we talked to Grau a lot and never got that he was having problems doing the right thing. As presented, all we could get from him through several encounters was that he was a guy who couldn't handle being bested by another of Orisini's apprentices (whose name escapes me) and took to the bottle to soothe his bruised ego. He was sympathetic after a fashion, but mostly just pathetic. As presented.
Sure, Zellara is dead, but I’m surprised a good group would think she didn’t count; she should be symbolic of the good people in Korvosa that the group has an opportunity to help (even if, in her particular case, its a little too late).
The problem was we didn't meet any good people. :-) Or at least not enough to make it seem like they were anything other than a couple of agates in a cesspool. I'm not exaggerating when I say that we really didn't meet nice people. So all Zellara became symbolic of was being the creepy dead woman who helped us without telling us why.
Vencarlo actually is a good guy (even if he does have an ulterior motive of sorts).
Again, because everyone we met(without a single exception) was either a rotten bastard or wanted to use us for their own ends, we assumed he was playing us. You can't blame us for thinking that he was of the same cloth as literally everyone else we'd encountered. Seriously, even the people who were nice and seemed on the ball (which were...Cressida Kroft and Zellara and...nope, that's it) plainly were using us for their own ends, or at least that was how it was presented to us.
It sounds like your GM played Trinia in a manner completely out of keeping with how she is presented in the book. She should have no reason to steal from the group (unless maybe in reaction to something they did to her?)
We chased her across the roofs, didn't hurt her to catch her, heard her story, believed her, hid her for several days (which got us in dutch with Kroft) while we arranged to smuggle her out of the city, got her out with considerable danger to ourselves, and then later discovered she'd ripped us off to the tune of (if memory serves) 7K GP. Which, you know, was a LOT to us at the time. We were not happy, but by then, what could we do?
Thousand Bones is another good guy who is stuck between a rock and a hard place. He is trying to make Korvosa a better place in the face of racism and discrimination. I suppose he could be played as belligerent, but I think the GM made a poor choice (in our game he was quiet, sad and angry, but his anger was clearly...
We had very little contact with him, and what contact we did have just made us really scared of making him angry.
If murdering the top 200 people in charge in Korvosa actually crossed any good character's mind as a viable option at any point, something went horribly wrong. Korvosa isn't a nice place, but it sure as hell sounds like it and its people were severely misrepresented.
Oh it didn't as far as I know; it was an illustration of how we perceived he city. Though if it had I don't think anyone around the table would have suggested that more than a couple of the top 200 were actually decent, non-horrible human beings. We would have based that on the fact that we had met so very, very few decent, non-horrible human beings (or other sentients, but you get my meaning).
For srs. Zellara serves as a great moral anchor for the party. Have to wonder exactly why she doesn't count. Especially when her entire purpose after the intro bit is to protect Korvosa.
Well she didn't count because she was, you know, DEAD. And being dead, we couldn't do anything to save her. As I mentioned above, she seemed like an aberration (in the non-monster sense), not a symbol of all that was good about Korvosa -- we barely saw anything good about Korvosa, and not enough to merit a symbol. It was a small enough amount to need no abstraction.
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In regards to Grau, maybe our GM did not play him quite by the book either, he originally came across as a somewhat pathetic but ultimately sympathetic figure. In our game at least his reasons for drinking were somewhat complicated. After being bested he began to doubt his skills and worth, he was rejected by a woman he had feelings for, and he was struggling to try to support his sister and her young children after her husband died (the latter is what made us think he was trying to do the right thing despite his poor life choices). He and his sister had to endure a lot, being marginalised by the Chelaxian upper class since she had married a Varisian. But rather than leave her and the kids to try to get by on their own and move to a non-Varisian part of the city where he could probably make a better life for himself (or just completely drown himself in drink if he wanted), he did (in our game) make an effort to stay with and support his family. Hardly a saint, but not a bad man.
As I said, a lot of this was revealed in Book 2.
In regards to Trinia stealing from your group, it seems like a bizarre and left field choice by the GM.
I think your GM seems to have simply underestimated the power that the campaign had as-written to heap on the misery and injustice of Korvosa. When the Hellknights pick up and say "hey this place is just too hardcore" you really don't need to add to the background awfulness by taking every NPC and making them sociopathic-baby-eating-santa-punching-tax-evaders.
If he runs the campaign again I'd recommend painting his presentation of Korvosa with more gray instead of leaning so heavily on the color black with black highlights under a black dance light.
Well she didn't count because she was, you know, DEAD. And being dead, we couldn't do anything to save her. As I mentioned above, she seemed like an aberration (in the non-monster sense), not a symbol of all that was good about Korvosa -- we barely saw anything good about Korvosa, and not enough to merit a symbol. It was a small enough amount to need no abstraction.
Wait, so you guys did not pick up her Harrow deck with her ghost inside?
And, yeah, Trinia was presented wildly out of character ( she'd never steal from the PC's, unless you guys mistreated her ). Not trusting Vencarlo seems to have been your own problem, although the way that the GM misrepresented everyone else, I can imagine him playing Vencarlo in a bad, creepy way, too.
Oh, hey, I forgot Majenko. I suppose he also betrayed the group or somesuch?
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Well she didn't count because she was, you know, DEAD. And being dead, we couldn't do anything to save her. As I mentioned above, she seemed like an aberration (in the non-monster sense), not a symbol of all that was good about Korvosa -- we barely saw anything good about Korvosa, and not enough to merit a symbol. It was a small enough amount to need no abstraction.Wait, so you guys did not pick up her Harrow deck with her ghost inside?
And, yeah, Trinia was presented wildly out of character ( she'd never steal from the PC's, unless you guys mistreated her ). Not trusting Vencarlo seems to have been your own problem, although the way that the GM misrepresented everyone else, I can imagine him playing Vencarlo in a bad, creepy way, too.
Oh, hey, I forgot Majenko. I suppose he also betrayed the group or somesuch?
If he was rescued.... :O
On Zellara, even the dead need help and even saving in this AP. ;) Along with Magnuskn's question of the deck, I have to wonder how the Harrow reading went. That likely should have been a point where the fate of all Korvosa was hinted to rest on your shoulders.
Also, what Herbo says. Korvosa shouldn't have been run as a total crapsack. Hell, Riddleport is probably nicer than what it seem Korvosa got run as in that game. The Guide to Korvosa may or may not have helped the GM depending on whether he took any of it to heart. It paints Korvosa as a place with plenty of problems but also with plenty of good elements and things worth fighting for as well.
Does the GM have a history of veering hard towards the cynical side of things?
In regards to Grau, maybe our GM did not play him quite by the book either, he originally came across as a somewhat pathetic but ultimately sympathetic figure....
When our group ran into him, the fighter genuinely tried to comfort him and unknowingly wound up saying the absolute worst things possible to him that just drove him deeper into the bottle.
Party rogue found him two days later in Old Korvosa and had to save him from committing suicide-by-street gang. Led to the rogue's working relationship with Vencarlo and Grau feeling indebted to him. Good times.
Im in Mothmans game. Our GM made us feel that city was desperate for help and we were the only people that were in a position to help. The city and its people weren't bad and it was certain overt and covert forces that were causing the problems.
The GM also made sure that we had support from people like Croft and encouragement from them when we were going in the right direction.
It sounds like your GM took grim and gritty too far.
I think every AP has a certain key element that must be a part of the PC backgrounds otherwise it just will not work very well.
As has been mentioned, the element for CotCT has to do with being a native of Korvosa and/or giving a damn about the city like a native would. I hope you get a chance to go through it again.
Best.
Wait, so you guys did not pick up her Harrow deck with her ghost inside?
And, yeah, Trinia was presented wildly out of character ( she'd never steal from the PC's, unless you guys mistreated her ). Not trusting Vencarlo seems to have been your own problem, although the way that the GM misrepresented everyone else, I can imagine him playing Vencarlo in a bad, creepy way, too.
Oh, hey, I forgot Majenko. I suppose he also betrayed the group or somesuch?
We did pick up the deck, but we didn't really get any kind of feel for it because it kept disappearing and reappearing (mostly it was gone). I didn't even know it was supposed to have her ghost in it, though in retrospect that explains a lot.
And Majenko didn't betray anyone. I'll give you that one. :-)
On a personal note, I didn't have a motivation problem with this particular adventure path, but I did experience something similar with Second Darkness (you start off working at a sleazy casino and then you're expected to shift gears into being selfless heroes) and Council of Thieves (the player's guide suggests you should care about the city of Westcrown, but the adventure basically expects you to be an out-and-out revolutionary).
Does the GM have a history of veering hard towards the cynical side of things?
Yes he does, and also he didn't read ahead in the AP. When we were getting close to the end of the first book, he cracked open the second, and by the time we finished the first book he said he was starting to look at the third, so I think that was an issue.
But he recently left the group due to a clash of play styles, so maybe I'll pick up the AP and see if I would like to run it, given that there's so much good advice on this forum. I'm running Kingmaker now though, and that one takes a metric buttload of prep so I don't know when I'll have the time.
On a personal note, I didn't have a motivation problem with this particular adventure path, but I did experience something similar with Second Darkness (you start off working at a sleazy casino and then you're expected to shift gears into being selfless heroes) and Council of Thieves (the player's guide suggests you should care about the city of Westcrown, but the adventure basically expects you to be an out-and-out revolutionary).
I've heard there were lots of problems with Second Darkness...
One of the tricky elements with running an AP is that the DM has to ignore the natural tendency to give encounters play time that roughly lines up with the amount of text the NPC has. In other words bad guys usually get introductions in the plot synopsis section. Then their motives etc. are talked about at the beginning of some small series of encounters (often a building), their minions exist or are doing things because of or for them and then they are, once again, brought up in whatever room they are located in.
NPCs that are the players allies might get a mention in the plot synopsis, possibly, and get a paragraph or two. The result is a feeling that Evil NPCs matter while good ones don't. This is a useful skill almost all of us have learned, after all when studying in school one generally learned to focus on the stuff that gets mentioned over and over all over the place and practically ignore the material that is only mentioned once.
Here though the skills we cultivated in order to do well at school or in elements of our careers are not serving us very well. The big bad guys get more emphasis because of game design features as well as word count restraints. In general the DM should usually be going out of his way to take what NPCs that are presented in an AP and putting a lot of role playing time and effort into making them really spring to life and be individuals that the players can really interact with. An AP provides a starting point for such NPCs but they generally need to be played pretty much in reaction to how your players characters behave and that can't be anticipated or written down.
Definitely a case of bad DMing, rather than the adventure. No DM should run any adventure path without first reading all the books. Otherwise he is sure to make mistakes and create plotholes where none exist.
In a game as focused on a single city as this, it's important to give the players solid background information. Before I began DMing CotCT, I made a point of making my copy of Guide to Korvosa available to the players. If you had the chance to read through that book, you would see that the city certainly has its fair share of corruption, but there's plenty of good people to be found. The Sable Company and the Korvosan Guard are both made up of good people struggling to make a difference; Justice Zenderholm, despite being called 'The Hanging Judge' is scrupulously fair, and outside her judicial duties, is devoted to improving the lot of the indigent and orphaned. There is a folk hero who has stood up against corruption for almost as long as there has been a Korvosa. It is Gotham City, or Dickensian London; yes, it is corrupt, yes, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. But there is much worth fighting for. For better or worse, it is the characters' home, and early on they are given the opportunity to help improve it--and by the end of things, they may be able to change the face of the city.
And a DM who would have Trinia rip the PCs off unprovoked clearly has no business running the AP in the first place.
Definitely a case of bad DMing, rather than the adventure.
I would give at least some of the responsibility to the Player's Guide as well; it pushes the idea of revenge on Lamm pretty strongly and the idea that the PCs should have heroic ties to Korvosa less than it should (in my opinion).
Definitely a case of bad DMing, rather than the adventure.I would give at least some of the responsibility to the Player's Guide as well; it pushes the idea of revenge on Lamm pretty strongly and the idea that the PCs should have heroic ties to Korvosa less than it should (in my opinion).
Fair enough; I did make a point of telling my players that while Lamm was a strong current drive, and what would bring them together, he would be resolved quickly--a reason for the shared adventure, not a driving force of the campaign.
Still, from the description given, that problem seems like small fries compared to a DM who can make Cressida come across as 'using' the party, and has Trinia repay kindness with thievery instead of profuse thanks.
Gregg I would recommend that you read through some of the play-by-posts for CoCT on these boards to see the ways in which PCs can tie closely into the city and how they can learn that there is still hope
Gregg I would recommend that you read through some of the play-by-posts for CoCT on these boards to see the ways in which PCs can tie closely into the city and how they can learn that there is still hope
I hesitate to do so, in case I end up playing it again, but it should be easy enough to create a PC with strong ties to the place. Lots of family or other responsibilities that they can't just up and leave ought to keep them settled in!
On a personal note, I didn't have a motivation problem with this particular adventure path, but I did experience something similar with Second Darkness
I played through the first book of Second Darkness before the campaign ended. Part of the problem was I had no motivation to go along with the first book's premise (I already had a job and didn't need to work in a casino). But I went along with it despite that. However Saul was portrayed as an inept fool. As a result I wanted to kill Saul and give the casino to one of the rival gang lords. I went against this instinct because I thought the campaign required us to keep Saul alive. When he turned on us at the end of the first book I was quite angry and disappointed.
In contrast I'm finding quite a lot of motivation to go along with the Council of Thieves campaign (same DM for both campaigns). Part of the problem was with Second Darkness I had a PC that was content to live life as he currently was and had no reason to rock the boat. Whereas in Council of Thieves I've got an ambitious nobleman that was designed specifically to go along with whatever the campaign hook was.
If you don't build the right PC for the right campaign, it can completely ruin your enjoyment.
also he didn't read ahead in the AP.
That never helps. Unless you read ahead, any adventure path (particularly WotC's ones) can just feel like a bunch of random encounters with no clear direction. It takes effort to weave the combats into a cohesive story.
I'm running Kingmaker now though, and that one takes a metric buttload of prep so I don't know when I'll have the time.
My initial reaction to reading the synopses for the Pathfinder APs was to run Kingmaker. However as you said, it takes a lot of prep work to do right. One of my friends instead suggested I convert Curse of the Crimson Throne to 4th ed (I prefer 4th ed over Pathfinder, but am happy to play both. At the moment I have two gaming groups. One plays Pathfinder exclusively, the other plays 4th ed exclusively. So I get the best of both worlds).
I myself have a tendency to play up the dark side of society. With Korvosa being the way it is, I definitely would have been tempted to play it up. However thanks to this thread, I'm going to avoid that path to a degree.
One change I want to make is to draw out the amount of anarchy the city is going to be in. Instead of 12 hours, I want it to last for days (much like the current troubles in Egypt).
Part of the reason is I've played in campaigns before where the city is in blazes and it feels like the end of the world. However a few hours later the city is back to normal and everything continues much as it did before. I haven't found that very satisfying, so I want to go into much more detail the anarchy and destruction that occurs when rioting takes place.
The other part of the reason is I'm replacing the Hellknights with an organisation extremely similar to the Whitecloaks from the Wheel of Time book series (although they'll be racially motivated rather than hating magic). However in order for the Queen to ask the Whitecloaks for help, I want the Queen to be truly desperate. So by having the riots last for days and days with no end in sight, I'm able to justify her turning to the Whitecloaks for help.
However thanks to this thread, I've also developed counterpoints. They include:
- The Mad Prophet encounter. The Mad Prophet will appear early on with a small group of followers. If the PCs let the Mad Prophet live, then he'll grow more powerful. He'll be convinced that the gods are going to destroy all of Korvosa, and the only way to be saved is to give up all of your material posessions. People who refuse to give up their posessions are killed. However in contrast he also ensures that that food is distributed to everyone within his camp (and anyone can join his camp if they give up their possessions).
- Vencarlo Osirini and a group of students will be patrolling the streets, trying to bring order back to the chaos.
- The PCs will come across some of Lamm's Lambs (a couple at a time) and will need to find a safe place for these kids. By succeeding and finding safety for the kids, they reaffirm that there are decent people left in Korvosa.
- Despite their reputation for commiting genocide against non-humans, to begin with the Whitecloaks will be concentrating solely on bringing order back to the city. They will be portrayed sympathetically and as an ally. At least to begin with ;)
- House Jalento's personal guards will be escorting people through the dangerous wards to one of the safe wards where order has been restored. This will be in direct response to the PCs saving Amin Jalento.
As I read more and come across more NPCs I'm sure I'll think of more situations where the PCs need to confront bad people taking advantage of the rioting and looting. I'm sure I'll also find more good NPCs that can serve as a counterpoint and inspiration for the PCs. Even bad NPCs can do the right thing for the wrong reasons, so for the first book they'll at least help lift the PCs spirits.
Once order is restored, the PCs should have a good network of NPCs they can call upon for help.
I would give at least some of the responsibility to the Player's Guide as well; it pushes the idea of revenge on Lamm pretty strongly and the idea that the PCs should have heroic ties to Korvosa less than it should (in my opinion).
To help establish firm roots for the PCs, I'm coming up with some of my own campaign traits in addition to the Paizo ones:
- Business Owner: As a business owner you were quite content until Lamm had his thugs destroy your property after you refused to fence any of his stolen goods.
+2 to diplomacy, bluff or streetwise.
- Osirini Student: A student at the Osirini Academy, you were learning under the Great Vencarlo Osirini how to fight with the sword. That was until one of Lamm's thugs broke your hands as they were stealing from you. Despite the best efforts of the clerics Vencarlo paid for, you were never able to regain the fine motor control required to wield a weapon.
+2 to Arcana, Nature or Religion as you have since studied one of these aspects and are in an implement using class.
- Arcane Student: You were studying at the Academy until you were kicked out for stealing from the headmaster. You eventually tracked down the thief to be one of Lamm's minions. However you weren't ever able to prove it in a court of law, and so you were never allowed back in.
+2 to streetwise or arcana.
- Korvosan Guard: You were a member of the City Watch until you caught one of Lamm's thieves. The thief lied and claimed you had asked for a bribe, but he was believed because a mysterious bag of stolen goods ended up in your locker. You served a sentence in prison for a few years and was only recently released from jail.
+2 to a single DEX, STR, CON or CHA based skill.
- Orphan: Lamm set your building alight. This was due to the fact that one of your parents got on Lamm's bad side. Perhaps they worked for him and betrayed him. Or perhaps they were a member of the City Guard and weren't accepting his bribes. Regardless both your parents died in the fire, and you also suffered serious burns.
Thankfully for you, a rich patron paid for your wounds to be treated at the finest temple of Korvosa. Afterwards he took you in and allowed you to live in his home. However this wasn't without a price. The nice patron is the leader of a major gang in Korvosa, and expects you to work for him. How did you react when you found out about the patron's darker side? Did you join his gang and make a living on the other side of the law? Or did you flee and have lived a fugitive, avoiding the patron's men who permeate all levels of Korvosan society.
+2 streetwise, thievery or stealth.
The whole point of the game is to have adventures with, you know, adventurers.
I dislike the notion of adventurers. I create characters damnit. Not cardboard cut-outs that kill, steal and occassionally help people for no real reason except they need help.
Why would you even come up with a character concept like this? Did you think the game was called "Offices & Doctor Appointments"?
Good question. I looked up my old character background and I had two plothooks built into it:
1) Get involved with better heists.2) Learn more about my dead mother's people, the Shaonti.
Working in a casino isn't exactly advancing my career as a burglar. Saul was so incompetent it was actually stunting my career as a criminal. Fortunately one of the other players was a Shaonti, so I had a reason to hang around her. Unfortunately that character's plothook (straight from the Player's Guide) to find her lost brother wasn't advanced at all in the first book (as the DM ran the first book). So that player had no reason to go along with the campaign either.
I learnt from this mistake and made a much more vague plothook for Council of Thieves.
The whole point of the game is to have adventures with, you know, adventurers.I dislike the notion of adventurers. I create characters damnit. Not cardboard cut-outs that kill, steal and occassionally help people for no real reason except they need help.
Why would you even come up with a character concept like this? Did you think the game was called "Offices & Doctor Appointments"?Good question. I looked up my old character background and I had two plothooks built into it:
1) Get involved with better heists.
2) Learn more about my dead mother's people, the Shaonti.Working in a casino isn't exactly advancing my career as a burglar. Saul was so incompetent it was actually stunting my career as a criminal. Fortunately one of the other players was a Shaonti, so I had a reason to hang around her. Unfortunately that character's plothook (straight from the Player's Guide) to find her lost brother wasn't advanced at all in the first book (as the DM ran the first book). So that player had no reason to go along with the campaign either.
I learnt from this mistake and made a much more vague plothook for Council of Thieves.
Even presuming that the DM can find a way to work your plot hook into the AP. This is not always the case - for example a find X relative is troublesome in CotCT because you only leave the city to go to some specifc locations - if there is no way X relative would be hanging with the Shointi or at Scarwall Keep then the DM has to contrive to send the relative to Korvosa to find you.
In any case even if the DM can come up with a good way to work this in and is willing to do so its a little bit tough on the DM to presume that he needs to work this in at the start of the first adventure and to do so in such a way that it motivates you to actually follow along with the plot.
My feeling is that players and DMs often don't talk to each other enough, especially where APs are concerned. The DM should really be giving out some broad overview on what is required in the characters background to make things good. In Korvosa, for example, you really need to be hero's or have a strong motivation to improve Korvosa for things to work.
I have considered these issues as well and I always com eto the same conclusions.
1- Korvosa is your home. Who does not love their home? That is the thing the GM needs to drive home, that the highest stake the PCs have in Korvosa is that it is the only home they know.
That leads directly to:
2- One problem I see with many adventures that take place in pseudo-medieval fantasy settings: people tend to apply the view of a post-renaissance western constitutional state. This is exactly the problem I encounter in my own CotCT game.
The players have their chars rail against the injustice of nobles being able to "buy" their justice. Or they are offended when "justice" is meted out with an iron fist... Well, Korvosa is a monarchy without a constitution and even if they had one, it would be written down by the nobles and the king.
My party burned down a lodging house for poor people (more or less by accident). They were quite taken aback when I had Croft inform them they had to pay 2000gp to have it restored. They were taken even further aback when she told them they were lucky, they'd only had to pay.
In medieval cities arson was punished harsher than murder!
The city is not more or less corrupt than Magnimar or Absalom. Where would the PCs go anyway? Faraway places often sound nicer, more plentiful, the grass is greener. But then other places are just that: far away. A person who has spent their entire life in one place is not necessarily bound to go just wandering off (except some semi-deranged halfling, but then that ran in the family). Korvosans hate change.
3- The last problem is one I too encountered in my own game. Lack of friendly faces. My players have a knack for avoiding friends and alienating potential allies.
Grau Soldado - one views him as a drunkard, the others are more or less indifferent, his love interest was killed by a wererat
Trinia - written off as insane and no use, left at Orsini's
Orsini - avoided for several sessions, because on PC said, why go there, I don't know him
Croft - abused as a magic item gift shop, lied to, verbally abused again, lied to, framed, etc
Magic item dealer 1 - got forgotten
Magic item dealer 2 - ignored for being a fat, sloppy guy who, despite having a name is sure to be pure flavour text
Priesthood of Shely - Highpriestess offended in own temple, art belittled to her face (after healing party for free)
Priesthood of Pharasma - Highpriestess offended by shouting-match in temple, having faith questioned to her face (after healing party for free), asked for reward for favour done
Priesthood of Sarenrae - Highpriest offended by party insistance to cast speak with dead on their fallen comrade (cleric of Sarenrae) and having his faith questioned
I think it sometimes goes both ways. :P
3- The last problem is one I too encountered in my own game. Lack of friendly faces. My players have a knack for avoiding friends and alienating potential allies.
Grau Soldado - one views him as a drunkard, the others are more or less indifferent, his love interest was killed by a wererat
Trinia - written off as insane and no use, left at Orsini's
Orsini - avoided for several sessions, because on PC said, why go there, I don't know him
Croft - abused as a magic item gift shop, lied to, verbally abused again, lied to, framed, etc
Magic item dealer 1 - got forgotten
Magic item dealer 2 - ignored for being a fat, sloppy guy who, despite having a name is sure to be pure flavour text
Priesthood of Shely - Highpriestess offended in own temple, art belittled to her face (after healing party for free)
Priesthood of Pharasma - Highpriestess offended by shouting-match in temple, having faith questioned to her face (after healing party for free), asked for reward for favour done
Priesthood of Sarenrae - Highpriest offended by party insistance to cast speak with dead on their fallen comrade (cleric of Sarenrae) and having his faith questionedI think it sometimes goes both ways. :P
Wow. No offense but...your PCs are dicks. :-)
Sometimes it does go both ways, when the players forget that the people in the world don't exist for their characters' amusement and advancement, but are just as much people as the party members. PCs don't walk around with halos so everyone knows who they are.
In my group, we were far too terrified of Cressida to sass her; we even went quite far out of our way to make sure we brought Vanka...Vancars...Vankisk...that one guy back alive like instructed, when it would have been a lot easier to just kill him. Same went for the high priestesses (one of the PCs was a cleric of Pharasma so we were very respectful, and the temple of Shelyn was the one place we went where we all said, "Hey, this place is great!"). I don't think I even knew there was a temple to Sarenrae there. As I've mentioned, Grau was viewed as a rather pathetic drunk; we helped him out a couple of times, but we never learned much about him. Trinia ripped us off -- I discussed that with the other players a few days ago and we're all still pretty bewildered by her treatment of us, since we we helped her out a lot at our own risk.
And I did stop another PC from burning down the building full of kids. :-D
Wow. No offense but...your PCs are dicks. :-)
None taken. Well, in all honesty, only one of them is and I have long considered talking to him. He's being antagonistic for antagonism's sake, I think.
They even p*$§ed off the Queen AND House Arkona both at the same time, knowing full well they had nothing in their hands to prove anything - almost dying in their cunningly laid "trap" at level 3...