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I have been gaming RPG since 1977. That sentence is one that I see on many message boards and blogs intermixed with another, "computer gaming (mmorpgs) are replacing pen and paper games".
Nope, not gonna happen and I will tell you why.
From the very first time that I played D & D I noticed that in order to achieve my own successes I would need to assist the group in their own individual goals. Additionally as a group we needed to remain focused (at least a little) on the overarching task which we faced in the module at hand. Working together elves, half elves, gnomes, humans and even half orcs, discovered that all things could be overcome. Face to face either across from one another at the kitchen table or later on in our own basements and across the world in Germany for a time we forged kingdoms, characters, epochs and real life friendships. The real people that, admittedly, possessed numerous quirks, idiosyncracies, unique interpersonal faults and what have you all learned to see the light shining from someone else within the group. And similarly the group, although willing to tease its own, was quick to defend those brighter points of its members should any outsider seek to mar or undermine their real life character. in short as we game, we become family. Face to face with one another. Aware of our individual weaknesses and individual strengths yet seeing therein the benefits of that person as an acquaintance, then friend and at times, a brother or sister.
At my gaming table and before the reaches of the great Sardistian Continent of Maenatae I have forged friendships, played cupid, improved my marriage, and seen good friends become husband and wife in lasting relationships which faced adversity far greater and more trying in real life than any dragon might show a party of stalwart adventurers. My crews have fashioned their character both on and off paper and looking one another in the eye went out after they left my home to face a world that often considered them misfits or geeks together. Stronger now paired with like minded and creative souls who, while different than the populous, yet were they in many ways better than their critics. Now armed with assistance of numbers and seeing that within this collective there exists a people divers, talented and valuable they no longer fear their detractors realizing that regardless what others may say that on Saturday from noon till midnight over at Ray's place we will all come together as equals and sitting around that table as friends we will test our intellects which others bemoan and see what we are truly made of. In that setting everyone is valuable, every person was welcome and we, in our little microcosm were able to set aside the pain of racism, bullying and mistreatment to, for some, have the notion that perhaps other people can indeed be fun to spend time with.
However, consider then gaming over the internet. I will limit this discourse to that which I personally have experienced. Everquest and World of Warcraft. In these milieus it seems that the bullies have found a field ripe to their harvest. In that wicked land I have heard every form of hatred and filth spewed out at other persons without restraint and without compassion to a point where it often sickens me. Everything from foul references to people's mothers to open suggestions of illicit and illegal sexual activity. Demeaning and degrading - debasing those incapable of enhancing one's experience without care to their person or even their existence. Hateful people allowed to run free deriding others because the "GM" or game masters focus on cash and not on the experience. I have grown so disenchanted with their oversight of the game that I refuse to allow someone to refer to me as a GM - I am a "DM" - A Dungeon Master, a guide to the world that lies at the boundary of the imagination. An Awakener. He that teaches the soul to see before that time when death makes it a necessity. An encourager of humanity and its vibrant and hopeful cheerleader waiting for each member patiently. Realizing that every flower does not bud at the same pace yet realizing also that each holds its own unique beauty and special fragrance once allowed to reach maturity.
Indeed friends, we are in no danger of departing for we have in our midst the element which history has witnessed time and again as the underpinning of our race. Humanity. We seek to encourage and to enhance and to build bridges to the minds of others. and such behavior has its rewards today as it did yesterday as it will tomorrow.
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World of Warcraft gives me 11 million reasons to pinch the bridge of my nose and sigh, as it has claimed several friends, and in various degrees turned them away from the P&P.
I loathe MMOs with a passion, as it is NOT an RPG in any shape or form. You level up and increase numbers. That is IT. There is no real interaction, no character development beyond the crunch and appearance, no story to speak of, no continuity, and no goal beyond higher and higher numbers.
Not to say that I do not enjoy computer gaming. I loved Neverwinter Nights 2 - Mask of the Betrayer. Even Dragon Age, despite striking me as a glorified single-player MMO at times. As long as there is a story.
But none of them are able to evoke the same flair and passion I exude when I am playing a character I REALLY made, playing with my wife and friends, being on an actual journey where I can do WHATEVER I WANT.
To me, saying MMO's will/are replacing PnP RPG's is like saying a new TV show will steal your D&D players. One isn't replacing the other- they are two distinct activities. You can enjoy both MMO's and PnP's or only one of them.
Myself, I play WoW. I'm logged into it right now, actually and have been playing it since the beta test. However, I've also been playing D&D for over 20 years. They each have their niche but one isn't replacing the other in any way.
When I don't want to go out or when the D&D group isnt' meeting or whatever I can play WoW/any given MMO. If I need to go out or if my D&D group is meeting or pretty much anything comes along.. I can log out of my MMO and go do that instead. Its like saying "omg, that new tv show is going to steal all my D&D players". No- folks can both watch TV and play PnP. (though preferably not at the same time)
The fact of the matter is- why I do enjoy MMO's.. Nothing will /ever/ replace the spontaneity and ingenuity of the human mind for running games. The newest greenest DM is better than a repeatable, cheatable computer game. Even if the DM is going through an AP as written with no exceptions- at least you can still talk to him/her about any given rule or interpretation.
But, you also can't usually play D&D at your beck and choosing and whim.. whereas the MMO's will always be at the fingertips :)
-S
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I am more worried about my friend's 1-and-3-year old children taking up the time he has for gaming than I am WoW. Sure, he doesn't prepare for the game and get to know his character as well as he used to, probably because the free time he does get from the kids is spent on WoW. But WoW and D&D happen at different times. His kids are the ones that will take away his D&D time.
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To me, saying MMO's will/are replacing PnP RPG's is like saying a new TV show will steal your D&D players. One isn't replacing the other- they are two distinct activities. You can enjoy both MMO's and PnP's or only one of them.
Myself, I play WoW. I'm logged into it right now, actually and have been playing it since the beta test. However, I've also been playing D&D for over 20 years. They each have their niche but one isn't replacing the other in any way.
I've played quite a bit of both D&D and WoW, and I don't think the popularity of MMOs is going to destroy tabletop roleplaying. We're more likely to see computer assisted tabletop gaming.
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I think it's inevitable imo. Being able to play any time of the day with anyone from across the world for hours on end and whenever your schedule is good is hard to pass up. I love tabletop games yet sometimes becuase of real life I can go on or two months on end without playing ir running something. WOW just imo does nto have that problem. Burying your head in the sand and hoping it goes away well that is never going to happen. The MMO genie is out of the lamp and it's never going back in again. No matter how many poeple click their ruby red shoes and go "i wish, I wish".
One hopes it will be many years away yet my gut instinct is that it will happen sooner than later. As long as a majority want it then it will happen. Progress unfortunately waits for no one.
I can say for myself that no matter how good a computer game is, if my brain is frazzled, which is frequently thanks to work, it is easier for me to focus on DnD than any computer game. Whether it be PbP, or working on something for a face to face game, there is just something about the freedom of imagination that computer games cannot, and never will be able to, capture.
To me, saying MMO's will/are replacing PnP RPG's is like saying a new TV show will steal your D&D players. One isn't replacing the other- they are two distinct activities. You can enjoy both MMO's and PnP's or only one of them.
+1
I actually like MMO's but I treat them like candy. I play only occasionally and I know I can get a much more satisfying experience playing with pen and paper.
I've actually turned a lot of MMO players into Pen and paper players.
I think we're safe until they can have a server powered by a forsaken child to interact and adjust to circumstances and situations not covered by the rules the way a real person does.
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I loathe MMOs with a passion, as it is NOT an RPG in any shape or form. You level up and increase numbers. That is IT. There is no real interaction, no character development beyond the crunch and appearance, no story to speak of, no continuity, and no goal beyond higher and higher numbers.
Back in the day we called it "Monty Haul" - When all people were capable of internalizing was getting loot. Their capacity to express themselves so limited or stifled that they only responded to a "gift giving" session.
*** The greater point I sought to make, which has not yet been addressed is the way people in these games address one another. Since they are not face to face they, in many cases, treat others quite poorly or behave in ways that would get them smacked were they in a live setting.
I loathe MMOs with a passion, as it is NOT an RPG in any shape or form. You level up and increase numbers. That is IT. There is no real interaction, no character development beyond the crunch and appearance, no story to speak of, no continuity, and no goal beyond higher and higher numbers.Back in the day we called it "Monty Haul" - When all people were capable of internalizing was getting loot. Their capacity to express themselves so limited or stifled that they only responded to a "gift giving" session.
*** The greater point I sought to make, which has not yet been addressed is the way people in these games address one another. Since they are not face to face they, in many cases, treat others quite poorly or behave in ways that would get them smacked were they in a live setting.
You mean like some people do on this forum? :P
Welcome to internet...
I predict a rise in PnP as high speed internet providers continue to identify bandwidth hogs and charge more for internet users to use these services. When people begin to see how much it will cost them to continue to play their online games, they will return to the games that started it all.
MMOs can steal players with a couple of things that people dismiss here. They are easier to grasp for some. For others it is less of a hassle, which is probably the biggest draw. I personally don't like them more, since I barely even play CRPGs. The only ones I play regularly are Dragon Age & NWN2. I quickly get bored with them because they are not as engaging. Some of the people that play MMOs are just looking for a good fight, or should I say Hack n Slash. CRPGs of any type can offer the easiest way to get that kind of game.
While the gameplay isn't as engaging, the people that can meet regular friends online may find it better for socializing. In that sense, it can be as entertaining for those individuals as a PnP game is to the rest of us.
I really think it boils down to which is the most convenient method for having fun. There are a few out there that just don't know any better. The ones that have made a choice are not going to be drawn back by any arguments, but the ones that never really played a PnP are the ones that you should try to introduce to the traditional games. I would NOT recommend trying to get them to play anything that is directly derived from their CRPG of choice, because they rarely translate the mechanics very well. I would recommend trying either a similar genre, or maybe a genre that doesn't have a good MMO but they are interested in.
I'm still playing the shit out of MassEffect 2. I also have played City of Heroes, and more recently and longer EVE Online. I regularly play Pub(lic) FPS games such as Team Fortresses 2 and Battlefield(s). By admission and posting here I've been seriously running/playing pen and paper RPGs since 1995.
Getting to MMOs, CRPGs/Virutal-Tabletops(VTTs), and the interact with Pen and Paper.
I will agree that MMOs are on a very different level then either VTTs or Pen and Paper. The shear Mass of them is what does it. They are always on, always having active players, and in some castes have constant drama*. Their downside is a general lack of swift world response. Adventures can be repeated many times, by many people, with little outcome on the overall meta-plot. Now this could change in the future depending on how technology goes and what people do with it.
The real interesting digital tool is the evolution of the Virtual Tabletop. This is where some aspects of Pen and Paper will be drawn away as tools improve. Virtual Tabletops present an advantage of MMOs, being able to access a wider pool of players at any given time. This would make it desirable for pick-up games, especially in organized and officiated styles such as Pathfinder Society. In a way organized play such as PS is actually a Massively Multiplayer game... it just isn't conducted online yet. Players run through the same scenarios, although generally only once per-player and the overall impact on the meta-story by an individual is negligible. The problem at the moment is ease of use and "always on" status. Keep an eye because this aspect of virtual gaming has been seriously advancing over the last 5 or so years, and will continue to grow as a more ubiquitous computing environment does.
Out of all of it Pen and Paper has one supreme advantage still over any digital comer. That is the long campaign. Adventure Paths from Paizo would be a good example of the kind of game that Pen and Paper can do that the other forms have difficulty in achieving. In some ways it is easier for from and maintain a face to face group over a long haul then it is to do the same for a purely online group. Partly this is due to time zone proximity, everyone is more or less local, and more or less operating under the same local time pattern, which makes scheduling dedicated time to play far easier. This is the aspect I find it unlikely that MMOs and even to an extent VTTs will ever come to fully replace.
In short, I both disagree and agree with Raemann. MMOs skipped the PnP RP hobby and pulled in vast numbers of people who likely won't be caught dead with a character sheet or a bag of dice in their hands. In that sense they didn't need to kill PnP, as it was already irrelevant to the majority of people now playing them.
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Out of all of it Pen and Paper has one supreme advantage still over any digital comer. That is the long campaign. Adventure Paths from Paizo would be a good example of the kind of game that Pen and Paper can do that the other forms have difficulty in achieving. In...
I liked this point that you made and I really liked the last point that you made about people that wouldn't be caught dead with a dice bag in their hands. You made me remember the key feature of PnP being it's appeal to the unchallenged mind. They who find unimpressive stories, quests and gear-popping the rave were never candidates for true dungeon crawl in the first place. But, I am a hopeless fan of the human potential and so I wait for the masses to embrace the joys of mentally stimulating challenges.
Someone else warned me that I was a tad naieve?
I play all my Pathfinder online these days.
I loathe MMOs with a passion, as it is NOT an RPG in any shape or form. You level up and increase numbers. That is IT. There is no real interaction, no character development beyond the crunch and appearance, no story to speak of, no continuity, and no goal beyond higher and higher numbers.
Actually, I've played a number of MMOs, and while WoW was one of the lightest in this sense, pretty much all of them were very rich with story content, and other than the whole "time sink" factor causing you to have to experience the same things repeatedly after a while, there was potential to roleplay a lot in those games.
The problem is the people who play them. I tried playing with some friends and family a while back (in WoW, after having dropped Everquest 2 long before), and we were "questing".. a term that usually means "huzzah! Adventure" for us D&D folk, but is actually a term for a type of game interaction to level your character, and possibly get an item or in game benefit.
So while I'm sitting there trying to read the rich, wonderful and often humorous stories being presented by the quests (well, in WoW not as much, but it was still there to some extent), my friends and family were clicking through the next button and running off to the next part. When I ask how we'll know what to do.. they reply with "I've got <insert appropriate website here> open, I've got all the locations and steps needed."
As Gabe from Penny Arcade put it: "This bar filling game is pretty good, it's filling bars mechanics cause bars to fill great!"
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I think if there was ever a "game" that could have replaced D&D, even remotely, it was Neverwinter Nights. The option to play with a group of friends, with one person as the DM who can just change up the situation and spawn whatever, etc, was phenominal.
Even that though, can't compare to what you can do with simply your imagination. No constraints.
The reason most of the people I know love their mmorpg is because of the kind supportive friends they've found online in that welcoming environment. The reasons computers won't replace pnp have nothing to do with the social, plenty of disrespectful trashtalking asshat groups playing pnp.
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Out of all of it Pen and Paper has one supreme advantage still over any digital comer. That is the long campaign. Adventure Paths from Paizo would be a good example of the kind of game that Pen and Paper can do that the other forms have difficulty in achieving. In...
I liked this point that you made and I really liked the last point that you made about people that wouldn't be caught dead with a dice bag in their hands. You made me remember the key feature of PnP being it's appeal to the unchallenged mind. They who find unimpressive stories, quests and gear-popping the rave were never candidates for true dungeon crawl in the first place. But, I am a hopeless fan of the human potential and so I wait for the masses to embrace the joys of mentally stimulating challenges.
Someone else warned me that I was a tad naieve?
Then you missed my part about EVE Online. Here's the quasi joke graphics. Having played EVE and done the range, High Security "save" space to dabbling in 0.0 (unsecured full PvP space). EVE is defiantly not for unchallenged. Penalty of very dark story material in the setting, and a large amount of player to player driven drama. Gear is good in EVE, but so is knowing when and how to use it. You can see it in the Alliance Tournaments where everyone is basically bringing top end gear.
Could be the mechanics on how players "level" in that game. Which is not the traditional "kill things to gain XP". EVE uses a Skill Points per Second system, the long you play the better your character gets. In effect it is a "character growth" system. My "Main" character transition from market merchant to a Wing Commander and Mining Foreman.
Many of the people I've "fleeted" with would likely not be interested in playing a Pen and Paper RPG.
I was/am a great fan of Neverwinter Nights ( I go months without visiting followed by 3 months of intense play ). But refering to it as a MMORPG is kinda being generous. "Massive Multiplayer" just doesn't fit. I believe the largest severs out there don't allow more than 84 players, and there are very few of those. I suspect there are less than 300 players at any given time among all the servers. That said, it does come closest to the feel of a PnP game.
I was a Lineage II adict, and my addiction was mirrored by another player as well. She and I would play L2 every free moment of every day. When we met for our weekly PnP, she and I would dominate the conversation with grand tales of grinding and PvP. Truthfully, if she hadn't been married to one of the other players, I am certain we both would have been uninvited to play anymore. ( at the time both of us saw PnP as an unwanted "obligation" that took us from our digital worlds, and would have been happy to have an excuse not to play PnP ) I somehow began seeing how it was affecting my relationships ( family and friends ) She eventually left her husband and moved away after meeting a few fellows online( online romantic roleplay.. ie cybering ).
But that is neither here nor there, that was MMO to very unhealthy levels. My Kingmaker group, I am the only nonWoWer there. The host's wife plays it in the den while we RP. And during breaks it will be discussed. But so is football, reading lists, and just about anything nonpolitical / nonreligious. I do not see it stealing away players. I just see it as another hobby that takes time. Just like those darn minature painters stealing away our roleplayers!!!! *joking*
Greg
This again? Really?
OK Some of you don’t sound like you actually understand what WOW at high levels really is like. If you are in a good guild and progression raiding then it is really fun. You do get to know your fellow guild members (real people) though voice programs. Think of it as a conference call. This is while you play. Depending on the group it can be really immature or professional. There can be a lot of stress, and you have to figure out how to down the boss to get the loot. Honestly, after raiding, the loot is secondary. Killing the boss is the main thing.
Now I have played DND/Pathfinder/otherRPGs longer then WOW. Finding a group of 5-8 real people who like gaming is actually a fairly hard thing to do when you move away from your friends. And if you are lucky you get 1 game a week. Not the 7 games a week I had at Collage. So naturally WOW picks up the slack, and to be honest I can zone and just kill stuff easily in wow.
I think the real issues is how the WOW mindset affects the DND/RPG table. If you have players who like wow/computer games, then you have players who like to optimize. That has caused more issues with groups I’ve seen then WOW.
The players who play WoW I have had around the table are hardly able to RP at all. The numbers are god, and everything else is secondary. From what I hear, this is a common complaint. But from what I understand, WoW guilds more or less requires you to adopt this mindset, lest you are kicked so they might adopt someone who is "more suited for the job".
Also, In a RPG group you have to wait for your turn. Not everyone can do that these days. Some need constant entertainment. Sure it is mostly the younger generation, use to the new lvls of tech we have, where everything is a click away.
You have no idea how much this terrifies me as a consultant for the Child Protective Services. But that is a digression I will not pursue.
But in retrospect, I think this is more a child vs adult thing. Very few proper adults I know play WoW. Those who do are all single and kind of man-childish. My proper adult friends (those with jobs and families) can barely spare the time for a game a week, which suits us just fine.
I get the feeling that the bulk of the paizo forum members are adults, or at least borderline so.
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The players who play WoW I have had around the table are hardly able to RP at all. The numbers are god, and everything else is secondary. From what I hear, this is a common complaint. But from what I understand, WoW guilds more or less requires you to adopt this mindset, lest you are kicked so they might adopt someone who is "more suited for the job".
Much as I love my friend, at the table he is almost completely silent, unless he is offered an idea for his character. (Even when he got a local head priest to allow him to act as proxy council member for him, he never asked to go to the town hall and present himself and find out when the next council meeting was.) Then, when other players try to engage him, he doesn't even try. ("Hey Qainam, tell the captain what you saw with true seeing." "Okay, blah. *waves hand*" And yes, he literally said 'Blah'.) He expects me to spoon feed him everything and is entirely reactive instead of proactive.
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As much as I agree with many of the sentiments expressed here (and disagree with others) it all comes down to this:
NEVER is a very, very big word. So big, it's a word that a prudent forecaster/predictor of almost anything ought to avoid using.
Could computer games entirely replace face-to-face tabletop RPGs at some point in the future? Of course they could. I'll go farther -- I think it is inevitable that at some point they will do so.
Does not mean that it will happen next week, next year, or even next decade. It might be next century - or the one after that, etc..
Could a Holodeck or Virtuousity/Matrix style experience replace RPGs? Come on! To ask the question is to answer it.
"Never" is as big a word as they come. It means "forever and ever until the end of time."
Still so confident on that bet? I'm sure as hell not making that bet - not at any odds.
Will it happen at some point? Absolutely.
MMO's replacing PNP Rpg's is like TV replacing radio...er...
sorry wish it was not so, but I fear it is the trend. Maybe a Golarion MMO? I'm sorry. I really don't like the trend. I even play a MUD (dragonrealms) but it is no replacement for tabletop games at all. Just something I do when no one can come over and play with me
:-(
The players who play WoW I have had around the table are hardly able to RP at all. The numbers are god, and everything else is secondary. From what I hear, this is a common complaint. But from what I understand, WoW guilds more or less requires you to adopt this mindset, lest you are kicked so they might adopt someone who is "more suited for the job".
WoW has very little to do about RPing for me(There are some serious RP servers). MMO's have nothing to do with PnP gaming. While there are very serious guilds out there that make WoW serious buisness, there are plenty of guilds that let you play the class and spec you want to play. I don't play on an RP server. I don't play WoW because I want to RP. I play because I want to kill things on my warrior with my wife and friends. I play PF to RP with my wife and friends. I enjoy both very much.
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As Yahtzee recently said:
"Why do you raid?"
"To get better gear"
"Why do you need better gear?"
"To go raiding"
That pretty much sums up WoW for me. It looks pretty and it's entertaining for a bit, but when you really examine it it's just a grind at the end of the day.
I love computer RPG's. I love Mass Effect, Dragon Age, NWN, Baldur's Gate, KotOR and have played them all to distraction. Having said that they pale into insignificance next to the level of immersion you get in a pen and paper game.
I remember when people said that M:TG would be the death of RPG's and it wasn't. Every now and again people wail that pen and paper RPG's will be replaced by some other new thing. It will never happen until a computer allows you all the options that a pen and paper world does. Seeing as how that world is largely infinite in scope you would have to have a major leap in computer technology to replace the complexity of the human mind.
And that's not going to happen any time soon.
MMO's may well overtake pen and paper games as the dominant form of gaming, but they will never "replace" pen and paper games, anymore than the tv "replaced" radio. Radio is still around, and doing quite well filling a niche that tv simply cannot fill. Likewise, pen and paper games will always fill a niche that, short of the invention of practical AI, MMO's will never be able to fill. Neverwinter Nights and MUDs aren't really MMOs in my mind as the design philosophy behind them and the design philosophy behind commercial MMOs is completely different.They are more of a cooperative play style than the developer created content of games like WOW or Eve.
Been playing D&D since the 70s. Started the MMO Nightmare with Evercrack, went to WoW, Warhammer Online, D&D Online, LotR Online to name the biggies...
I love MMOs. They give me the ability to zone out for an hour to go do some 'stuff'. PvP, quick Dungeon, trade skilling etc. They have in no way replaced my Table Top Gaming Addiction. I can name maybe a total of 7 MMOs I've spent time in and that pales in comparison to the number of games I've dumped thousands of dollars into (Books, Minis, Maps, Random Shtuff!) and still look for new stuff.
I mean, how many editions of D&D are out there and we've all bought darn near every splat / Module for? How many hours have we spent reading, modifying and playing these games? WAY more than an MMO.
Now, I can see exactly where Steel_Wind is coming from. With the way technology bounces ahead in huge chunks, one day, we may be around a 'Virtual Table' of our own. It could happen and it sure would make the 8 Hour Gaming Trip (one Way) once a month a lot easier and could make that game happen multiple times a week! Huzzah!
Still, while they will influence the player base, I can't see a totally computer run game replacing the Face to Face gaming in my life. Others may go that way, but our old Grognard and Grognardess Games will be Tabletop and Face to Face.... even if it's over a high speed internet connection!!
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
I find the categorical statement a bit absurd and slightly presumptuous. Who's to say what 20, much less 50, years of cultural development and technological advancement will bring? Maybe it's not the MMO, but that thing that comes after the MMO that will make PnP hopelessly archaic.
I think we also treat with considerable undue nostalgia the proverbial kitchen table. Sure, it brings some great times, but there's also a lot of strife. The propensity for out of game drama is much higher. The potential for electronic means to work as a sort of sorting mechanism is pretty good. Ideally, it means that there's less of a chance that you're going to end up in a group that doesn't play like you do. And, possibly most importantly, the sort of things that an MMO can do well, can't be reduplicated in a PnP game. Maybe in a LARP, but the sort of beautiful plot fusion that can happen (emphasis on the can) in a MMO is positively antithetical to a PnP game.
Now, I'm mostly devil's advocating here. However, I don't think that we're justified in feeling entirely that special or superior...if only because (as I think we've already seen) video games in general have vastly affected both how games are structured, but what people expect out of PnP games, and that's something that's only going to grow with time, unless PnP becomes some total stagnant backwater.
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I play WoW and I play Pathfinder. I also play elder scrolls on my XBox! Now I can honestly say that I would and will GLADLY get off WoW and/or my XBox for some table top Pathfinder! The table top is what got me into the RPG genre and that is where my heart will remain.
I don't the think the table top aspect will be going away anytime soon. The social interaction is unreplacable! The fun times! Sure those video games are fun, sure i've met some friendly people in WoW. But nothing could ever replace those RL friends at the table, the different enjoyment in the RPG game that is there.
But that's just me. I have two other players in my current group that also play WoW and they both would rather do a table top game over an online game. :D
The "tabletop," "pen," and "paper," may well someday become electronic; heck, to a certain extent it is with pbp and games like Neverwinter Night. However, true computer games will never be able to replicate the human interaction that even Neverwinter Nights (at least beyond the shipped campaign) and pbps still have. True computer games, whether they be single player or multiplayer, rely on computer code, and no programmer can foresee and plan for every possible trick a human player can come up without having to resort to far more code than any current computer can handle. Even if computers some day get to the point where they can handle that big of a program, anything short of an effective AI brain, which quite frankly seems very unlikely, is still going to come up short of the human capacity to adjust and adapt. Even games like Morrowind have very real limitations in actual game play, no matter how many mods you install or how many scripts you write.
MMO's do somethings very well - (some things even better than P&P RPG's). It's hands off & uniform mechanics, it's objective approach, it's mostly "on" status (except when servers are down), it's vibrant, colorful, humorous, it's ability to provide a shared experience, etc.
However, it's also a sublime straightjacket. It is the quintessential "railroading" experience, as you can never really leave the tracks (no matter how "varied" they appear in the game). It's an absolute slog / timesink, designed to maximize subscription durations - where teenagers and 20-somethings have the free time to grind out the "Kill 80 snuggleflumpins!" adventures, us older guys have neither the time nor the patience. There is no subjectivity. For the most part there is no gray area (enemies are red and while faction type systems might simulate relationships better, it's now on a group basis, and not on an individual). It's a one size-fits all world, where there is no ability for a "GM" to design adventures, worlds, dungeons, NPC's, (Neverwinter nights inched toward this direction).
The lists really do go on... and I'm just scratching the surface.
I don't play MMOs (or any other online games) myself, but several in my regular gaming group do. There was a very annoying period when they were so into first EQ and then WOW that every game session had to start with about half an hour of their recounting their MMO adventures. Since they are all good gamers and relatively intelligent human beings, I guess they found (and still find) something worthwhile in the experience.
That said, it seems like a very different experience from P&P RPGs, and not a direct replacement. Even during their most fanatical WOW addiction, they never even considered quitting our table game (although one guy occasionally didn't show because he's stayed up too late the night before playing WOW). Some day, the tech may be available to reproduce the same experience as a tradtional RPG, but that time is still well in the future, IMHO.
As for the level of immaturity, bullying and antisocial behavior exhibited in MMOs, that is frankly one of the big reasons I don't play - too many jerks. A lot of that is symptomatic of the Internet in general, in which anonymity removes the social restraints and possible consequences that keep many people from behaving like idiots in more personal forms of interaction. Comes with the territory, unless you have very active and aggressive monitors (expensive and timeconsuming) willing to kick the losers out quickly. That said, my friends seem to have found a way to only play with folks they like and ignore the idiots, so it must be possible. Just like table games, it's not worth it to play with jerks. Just one can wreck the whole experience.
Certainly D&D/PF has been influenced in many ways by computer games, including MMOs, as well as other new media including anime, video games, comic books, wuxia movies and so on. I'm not entirely comfortable with all the ways that influence has played out, but that's largely because I'm an old dude, and nostalgic for the classic feel of D&D that drew far more from fantasy literature than from electronic media.
The only reason I play CRPGs is becasue I don't have to wait for a group to do so. Simple as that.
Better go and tell the people who play EVE Online. I'm sure they'll be fascinated by your description of what they're doing. There are single player cRPGs providing thoroughly sandbox experiences too.
Grinding on roids vs. killing 80 snuggleflumpins?
Swaping real time for adventuring time (one might argue this is an even *more* effective maximization of subscription revenue since you can't get Amarr Dreadnought V without spending exactly XXXX $$$$.)?
EVE is a better bridge towards the wide variety and open endedness P&P can give players, but it still falls short.
And I should know, I played it for 3+ years (as it offered a more "casual" experience). Still not enough IMO.
Great now I have another time...
Be warned, it is not a forgiving game. Details inside...
One thing that will make EVE easier is to find a group to fly with.
I think there is a thread in technology/games for Eve players. I'm about to get back in myself because of the new expansion which added some crazy PvE in High Sec. Look up for Dane Brasten by the end of the week, a Galente expat turned Brutor tribe expeditor :P .
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I like the subtle implicature of "MMO players=children" and "Tabletop players=adults" going on here. Keep up the good work, I'm sure the condescending attitude gets you a long way.
Anyhow, I don't see it. Some people are concerned with numbers and don't feel like acting things out. Others optimize like nobody's business and stay relatively silent during a gaming sessions. Perhaps they have dwindling attention spans or perhaps they experience things in a different way than those who like to roleplay to their utmost. It takes all kinds. I don't feel that MMO's are affecting either way. What I do trust the generation of today to have suffered and been affected by is the rapidly expanding sphere of new communication. Things like the Internet and mobile phones could be blamed, but they are just parts of a larger whole. We have embraced these new mediums into our everyday lives and are completely submerged in them without question and with very little research on how constant exposure affects us, especially the youth.
Our kids, and heck, we, are suffering from information overload, being recipient to wealth of information and data with very little comparison or any signs of slowing down. Adverts, online gaming, sitting in front of the screen and tapping in to a huge amount of trivia and basically needless information around the clock and taking breaks by reading news sites and watching tv. People are so used to being constantly up-to-date and instantly recieving everything from scores to gratification. Ever heard of Major League Gaming? Haven't? You've probably heard of WOW or Second Life at least.
That's not even the worst of it, it's the constant exposure to this amount of stimuli that people should be worried about. Do you often have TVtropes, a couple of wikis, your DevArt/Livejournal account, your twitter and Facebook and whatever project - be it for work or entertainment - on all the time? Then you are part of the phenomenon. The scientific community is only now starting to catch up with the media and things don't look too good. I think a nice, if disheartening term is "oversaturation". A wide range of stimuli being unloaded on someone with nary a break resulting in burnout and stifled offline communication. I don't even want to go into the huge amounts of coffeine and sugar that is being chugged to stay "up to speed" or powered up. Well, we will shortly see what will come out of this issue.
See where I'm going with this?
Now, I've known all kinds of people, gamers from both MMO and tabletop backgrounds and I call bull on either medium phasing out the other. TV thinks it's been doing that to radio for decades, but we still listen to it every time someone drives to work or has headphones on when working alone. Electronic coverage was supposed to replace books but here we are with more and more buyers every year. Competitive gaming is definitely not replacing real sports either.
You see, people are often from both sides of the fence. I have a friend who is sometimes completely zoned out with WOW, yet he is a great gamemaster, adores books and is an outgoing type. Another person in our gaming circle is a complete information junkie on account of his profession yet is one of the more outspoken and devoted roleplayers. Then we have a couple of stunts who've probably never touched online rpgs in any form, but often barely react to the goings at the table.
I would not point my finger to any one thing in this debacle, but neither would I antagonize different types people based on their chosen entertainment. The phenomenon is far too intricate and difficult to predict for that kind of talk. Instead, perhaps consider how much you yourself are contributing to this oversaturation and in what way. Might explain why it is so easy to get snide or argumentative online these days. Personally, I can see the symptoms in myself without much trouble.
Wow, who was making all those implications? I just talked about available free time.
EVE is better than most MMOs because it is designed to be a large sandbox. It is a fun game; I play it currently, and I thoroughly enjoy it. It is not the same as a pen and paper game though. It has a different playing style, different objectives, and the limits, while harder to reach than in most MMOs, are still hard coded. I don't think computer games and MMOs are bad, I just don't think that they fill the same niche as "tabletop" (whether that table be physical or electronic) roleplaying games where the only limit is what the group will tolerate.
World of Warcraft gives me 11 million reasons to pinch the bridge of my nose and sigh, as it has claimed several friends, and in various degrees turned them away from the P&P.
I loathe MMOs with a passion, as it is NOT an RPG in any shape or form. You level up and increase numbers. That is IT. There is no real interaction, no character development beyond the crunch and appearance, no story to speak of, no continuity, and no goal beyond higher and higher numbers.
Not to say that I do not enjoy computer gaming. I loved Neverwinter Nights 2 - Mask of the Betrayer. Even Dragon Age, despite striking me as a glorified single-player MMO at times. As long as there is a story.
But none of them are able to evoke the same flair and passion I exude when I am playing a character I REALLY made, playing with my wife and friends, being on an actual journey where I can do WHATEVER I WANT.
I play World of Warcraft.
But the moment I hear of friends wanting to play pathfinder, D&D, some white wolf game, dresden files, dark heresy, mutants and masterminds, or even some game a friend made himself called Ork Death Race, I drop World of Warcraft. Shut off my computer, and go play it. As I find it infinitely more fun than anything WoW Can offer me.
I love DMing. I love playing. Hell. I think I would love just being in the same room as people playing.
i.e. Ork Death Race is a twisted metal race game that requires no DM to run it. Everyone is an Ork, from Warhammer 40k. Well. A certain class of ork, like Mad Dok, or Mauler, or Burner. And there are several types of vehicles with different stats and speeds. Then, there are several different types of weapons. People roll an initiative of sorts, and the first round there isn't any combat allowed. After that. Do whatever you want. First one to finish the race wins. Or.. Last person alive wins the race.
Anyhow. I can't think of a game that would pull me away from Tabletop RPG gaming.
Unless its some sort of virtual reality that basically does the same thing in every respect, but over great distances.
RPGs, for life.