Wisdom hardly seems like the right stat to use for an ability fueled by how dashing and awesome you are. Wisdom clashes with the regaining of grit by being reckless, foolhardy and showy.
I would recommend that it goes to charisma instead. That would really make gunslinger fit into the image of dashing hero. You do awesome stupid things and benefit from it because you are just that cool.
Charisma, all the way.
Wisdom hardly seems like the right stat to use for an ability fueled by how dashing and awesome you are. Wisdom clashes with the regaining of grit by being reckless, foolhardy and showy.
I would recommend that it goes to charisma instead. That would really make gunslinger fit into the image of dashing hero. You do awesome stupid things and benefit from it because you are just that cool.
Charisma, all the way.
Actually, I'm kind of in agreement. Also, given that the gunslinger isn't going to be as worried about strength, that means they only have to worry about pumping dex and wisdom, and both of those would be boosting a save.
Might not be a bad idea to take a non-save stat and make it work for this, especially since it does fit better thematically.
That having been said, I'll be interested to hear what the thoughts were behind making this wisdom based.
i love the fact its wis based, i would just hate this class if it was cha based. cha just feels wrong to me for a combat class
i love the fact its wis based, i would just hate this class if it was cha based. cha just feels wrong to me for a combat class
But the class does get bennies from doing reckless and dangerous stuff. That doesn't quite scream wisdom to me . . . ;)
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On the one hand, I can see exactly where you're coming from with Charisma and I agree with KnightErrantJR's non-save stat sentiments. Charisma would seem to be the most valid stat. However, perhaps the reason why was not to pigeonhole the roleplaying aspects of the gunslinger. If they are all high charisma "show-offs", then there's not much room for alternative role-playing takes on the class. As written though, I think charisma would be the most suitable for the grit mechanic. Can they do either/or? Must be chosen at 1st level?
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
I could see it going ether way.
Most of the old black and white western i watched growing up, the gunslinger was not alway the handsome or cool one. Then again they were not alway the bright one ether.
Kind of wondering if they choose Wisdom, because that was a dump stat for most melee classes.
But ya like the Wisdom....encourages a more well rounded character in the long run.
I'm actually really liking the wisdom based side of it.
On the mechanical side: It gives the class another reason to take a decent wisdom and rewards it -- thus you get a bit better save with a bonus to a class ability to boot.
On the fluff side: I really do not see a gunslinger as a likable person. Consider most fiction and fluff for them has them being loners, outsiders, ruffians, knaves, and worse. These were not well liked people, and were generally not nice to each other either. The heroes were a bit different but that was the heroes (which I don't begrudge them since they are heroes) but for the "average gunslinger" I don't really want to give an incentive for him to be well liked and smooth tongued. Let him be a rough type that has a spot more common sense than the other fighters you run into.
We had this same discussion internally, and don't be surprised if you see Charisma variant archetypes in Ultimate Combat.
In short, I am not unsympathetic to a Dex/Cha gunslinger.
I'm actually really liking the wisdom based side of it.
On the mechanical side: It gives the class another reason to take a decent wisdom and rewards it -- thus you get a bit better save with a bonus to a class ability to boot.
On the fluff side: I really do not see a gunslinger as a likable person. Consider most fiction and fluff for them has them being loners, outsiders, ruffians, knaves, and worse. These were not well liked people, and were generally not nice to each other either. The heroes were a bit different but that was the heroes (which I don't begrudge them since they are heroes) but for the "average gunslinger" I don't really want to give an incentive for him to be well liked and smooth tongued. Let him be a rough type that has a spot more common sense than the other fighters you run into.
Let me posit this, however. Charisma doesn't equal likable. Charisma equals strong personality, and someone that other people listen to. They may think X is a bastard, but damnit, there is just something about him that they don't want to ignore.
Plus, lots of gunslingers seem to be a hit with the lady, even when they are gruff loners . . . ;)
I'm actually really liking the wisdom based side of it.
On the mechanical side: It gives the class another reason to take a decent wisdom and rewards it -- thus you get a bit better save with a bonus to a class ability to boot.
On the fluff side: I really do not see a gunslinger as a likable person. Consider most fiction and fluff for them has them being loners, outsiders, ruffians, knaves, and worse. These were not well liked people, and were generally not nice to each other either. The heroes were a bit different but that was the heroes (which I don't begrudge them since they are heroes) but for the "average gunslinger" I don't really want to give an incentive for him to be well liked and smooth tongued. Let him be a rough type that has a spot more common sense than the other fighters you run into.
I could see going either way.
But to present some charisma considerations
To paraphrase from a 3.X Monster book undead character Y gets +4 to charisma because they are scary and they know it.
Do not make the assertion that high charisma is only fun and fluffy.
To use the titular gunslinger Roland high charisma would be appropriate. Dancing the komalla, his seductions, his speaking at gatherings and scary so scary that folks know death walks among them.
In that case, I really hope non-gunslingers that pick grit feats would be able to choose between wisdom-based or charisma-based.
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I do not aim with my hand;
He who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I aim with my eye.
I do not shoot with my hand;
He who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I shoot with my mind.
I do not kill with my gun;
He who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.
- Gordito Delgado, The Adventures of Dr. McNinja
Or Stephen King's The Gunslinger.
One of the best gunslinger quotes of all time doesn't really help with the issue, except to solidly narrow it down to WIS and CHA. ;)
The write-up seems to scream out the possibility of running a Gun Mage, so I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up getting a PrC for it with Wisdom-based casting.
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How about BOTH? I mean honestly looking at it, the amount of grit you get needs to be higher if you wanna make for a very dramatic based character class. Just the wisdom mod seems aweful small so I don't think having it be both widsom and charisma bonus would be a bad thing. Course that does make for a bit of MAD I suppose.
Fluffwise, I can see it either way (with the classic Western stereotype, anyway). CHA simply as force of presence and that whole 'I walk into a saloon and I'm obviously one bad hombre' thing, WIS for being cool, calm, collected, and having survived this long living the way of the gun.
Sure, you may regrain grit by taking chances, but who says they can't be calculated risks and not reckless stunts?
Both wouldn't hurt my feelings -- my main argument is that I like a fighter type that gets a benefit from wisdom beyond skills and saves.
I will freely admit that CHA makes sense too -- I just like having the wisdom as a choice for once.
In my opinion if it was an either/or I would be even happier since that supports the broadest range of character types.
Both wouldn't hurt my feelings -- my main argument is that I like a fighter type that gets a benefit from wisdom beyond skills and saves.
I will freely admit that CHA makes sense too -- I just like having the wisdom as a choice for once.
In my opinion if it was an either/or I would be even happier since that supports the broadest range of character types.
+1
I can see Paladin from "Have Gun, Will Travel" as being Wise or Charismatic. It is a tough call. My mother often described Richard Boone as " So ugly, he was handsome".I lean towards CHA, but I can see it both ways and wholeheartedly like the idea of an "either/or". As an aside, are there any examples of a class that uses an "either/or" approach in 3.5?
Greg
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I can see Paladin from "Have Gun, Will Travel" as being Wise or Charismatic. It is a tough call. My mother often described Richard Boone as " So ugly, he was handsome".
You know, looking at iconic examples might be the way to go.
"Blondie"
Roland
Doc Holiday (okay, CHA, no way around it)
Jonah Hex
Sartana...wait...that's just breaking the game right there...
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The case for Wisdom as presented by Gene Hackman's character in Unforgiven
Look son, being a good shot, being quick with a pistol, that don't do no harm, but it don't mean much next to being cool-headed. A man who will keep his head and not get rattled under fire, like as not, he'll kill ya. It ain't so easy to shoot a man anyhow, especially if the son-of-a-b~+@% is shootin' back at you.
Granted Clint's character of William Munny seems the Cha based alternative. Obviously has been poor at decision making but dominates any scene with shear force of presence. Too many peole confuse charisma with popularity and likability. Have you ever found yourself doing something you didn't want to even though the person who told you to do it was visually unappealing and a jerk? That's force of personality (or middle management).
I had the same initial thought as the thread progenitor. I can see it going either way. As it's built the class seems rather one dimensional compared to other Pathfinder classes. Some variation here would go a long way. Options for calm and cool vs rash and brash could present players with more than one option.
Edit: Sorry about the swear. Meant to censor Mr. Hackman but forgot.
I'm in full agreement that it should be Charsima-based as well. After all, the gunslinger seems to really be about panache and Wisdom is practically the opposite of flashy.
Charisma does seem to make more sense to me, now that it has been brought up.
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How about BOTH? I mean honestly looking at it, the amount of grit you get needs to be higher if you wanna make for a very dramatic based character class. Just the wisdom mod seems aweful small so I don't think having it be both widsom and charisma bonus would be a bad thing. Course that does make for a bit of MAD I suppose.
I actually think this is a great idea. Have it be based on Wis or Cha (whichever is higher) and then have a few (like the bard) where only a wis based gunslinger gets it and then some based on cha. This way you can have mostly generic "grit" abilities but a few (possibly even the capstones) be based on whether you are cha or wis. it also could be the defining feature for things like skills etc.
While this could simply be an archetype that would make one type (Wis or Cha gunslinger) be "dominant." Although, this might make it so the alternate class might become a class itself... but I think that'd be ok.
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I don't see why Charisma fits. When I think back to all the westerns I've watched, a lot of the characters don't look great, but have innate wisdoms of things. In fact, a lot of them have scars on their face or just look downright fugly. This translates to Pathfinder quite nicely, because I believe in 1 of the APs, if you get scarred in a certain way you take minuses to your charisma score. And I think typically Charisma has been tied to how great you look (at least that's how my friends and local PFS players have interpreted it).
If someone could explain to me the way it fits, that would be helpful. But for now, I think Wisdom is a much better and iconic choice.
And I think typically Charisma has been tied to how great you look (at least that's how my friends and local PFS players have interpreted it).
Were that the case it wouldn't make sense for sorcerers either. It's supposed to be a force of personality, for which physical attractiveness is one manifestation.
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And I think typically Charisma has been tied to how great you look (at least that's how my friends and local PFS players have interpreted it).Were that the case it wouldn't make sense for sorcerers either. It's supposed to be a force of personality, for which physical attractiveness is one manifestation.
Fair point, but I still don't see Gunslingers having a great force of personality in terms of being very diplomatic about things. Yes, they are good at intimidation and bluffing, but it just makes a lick more sense that they are wisdom based (I think they need to add Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival to their skill set and just make the a standard class).
In fact, the more I read about them the more I'm for making them a separate base class altogether. They are just TOO different from a fighter and introduce a whole new mechanic completely.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I'm gonna be the radical here and advocate CON. For the tough-as-nails "Dirty Harry" archetype, not necessarily charismatic, not necessarily wise, but implacable as all hell. Besides, CON is such a neglected stat. It's used for HP and Fort saves, which are important, but all of it's other applications are very circumstantial. Let's give CON some love!
Fair point, but I still don't see Gunslingers having a great force of personality in terms of being very diplomatic about things. Yes, they are good at intimidation and bluffing, but it just makes a lick more sense that they are wisdom based.
to reiterate a point I made earlier
"To paraphrase from a 3.X Monster Manual book undead character Y gets '+4 to charisma because they are scary and they know it'."
For all I know one of the guys at paizo wrote that entry or knows who did so there is a logic to making the argument for charisma.
On the practicality point either/or or even better add both as it appears that the only way to increase this pool is via feats rather than level progression (i may have missed it if its there) that puts them in he hole for thier "power mechanic" to even monks which people complain about. A 5% chance to recharge and making dex not desirable as you want to go last in a round to kill opponents after the party has softened them up does not a reliable mechanic make, Nor does take a chancy move that as wrtten could be a joke, a SOS, or outright lethal as it is GM dependent and therefore highly variable from table to table is a poorly developed mechanic. Add one for "getting the drop on em" shoot an opponent who's inititative you beat in the first round of combat gain a grit.
I see grit as more Wis based, gunslinger needs to be perceptive and not easily spooked, ya taking risks is part of it but it should be risks that need to be taken not just a jackass stunt.
I see grit as internal mettle, not bravado
jackass stunt.
The rules as they are deliberately encourage these.
I too think Charisma is the better fit here, it just goes with the force of personailty and swagger gunslingers have always shown. Then again I also think the Ninja should be Wis based, or even Int based, before I saw the playtest, Cha would have been the very last ability I thought a Ninja would utilize. (Horrified at the idea of a Ninja party face)
But anyway, a big +1 for Gunslinger charisma grit.
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You know guys, last time I checked he had a weak Will save, and most things that screw martial classes over are Will save things. Flavour is all cool and nice, until somebody hits you with a SoS/SoD and you spend the rest of the fight looking at the wall and drooling.
Please don't make him more MAD.
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How about BOTH? I mean honestly looking at it, the amount of grit you get needs to be higher if you wanna make for a very dramatic based character class. Just the wisdom mod seems aweful small so I don't think having it be both widsom and charisma bonus would be a bad thing. Course that does make for a bit of MAD I suppose.I actually think this is a great idea. Have it be based on Wis or Cha (whichever is higher) and then have a few (like the bard) where only a wis based gunslinger gets it and then some based on cha. This way you can have mostly generic "grit" abilities but a few (possibly even the capstones) be based on whether you are cha or wis. it also could be the defining feature for things like skills etc.
While this could simply be an archetype that would make one type (Wis or Cha gunslinger) be "dominant." Although, this might make it so the alternate class might become a class itself... but I think that'd be ok.
I'm not saying choose, I'm saying it's used em both. So wis 14, charisma 8, you have 1 grit. 14 wis and 12 charisma, you have 3 grit. This allows for more grit which...which I think the class can quite frankly use at lower levels. May need to remove some of the ways to increase grit I suppose for mid/high levels...but the amount of grit you get at low levels could use a boost and this is a good way to do that...other then making the class more MAD of course.
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We had this same discussion internally, and don't be surprised if you see Charisma variant archetypes in Ultimate Combat.
In short, I am not unsympathetic to a Dex/Cha gunslinger.
Yeah, I know that Wis that boosts one of the weak saves as a gunslinger thus is best from a meta gaming stand point but still Charisma seems to fit better.
I am hopeful that the charisma variant you come up with will measure up to the wisdom based one.
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Gunslingers using wisdom made plenty of sense to me when I first read it, and still does, actually. I would say that John Wayne and Clint Eastwood's characters were more stoic and calculating than flashy and daring (i.e., wisdom not charisma), and that was fine with me. Charisma also made sense, as this class definitely has some bravado about it, but wisdom worked just fine.
But then I saw that Ninjas, of all things, were Charisma based and the Gunslinger wasn't? That threw it all out the window for me. The ninja's got a freaking KI POOL (very much a thing I associate with wisdom), and when on earth are they going to be using charisma?? They're stealth killers! I'd say swap them. Gunslingers get Charisma, Ninjas use wisdom.
Another idea is to have the rifle be wisdom based and the two pistol be charisma based. You know the two pistol gunslingers are generally speaking the flash ones after all.
Cold Napalm you are just full of nice ideas on this part.
I'm going to attempt to add a thought myself:
Why not replace bravery with Grit?
As long as they have a point of Grit they get a +2 on either their will or fortitude saves, and the grit can go up by one every 4 levels like bravery does now.
It would tie it closer to the fighter that this is supposed to be a sub class of.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Another idea is to have the rifle be wisdom based and the two pistol be charisma based. You know the two pistol gunslingers are generally speaking the flash ones after all.
Grit based archetypes with associated weapon:
Str with scattergun and using the butt for bludgeoning
Dex with dagger and pistol butt used for TWF
Con with the gun axe
Int with sniping with a rifle and tactics
Wis as presented
Cha with two pistols