|
So, first I gotta say I love the Gunslinger and am planning on playing as one ASAP, but I have a couple of questions that I want to make sure I asked first.
1) Deadly Aim does not work with firearms when they are in range of a touch attack, correct? But it does work when the target is greater than one range increment away?
2) What other types of firearms are there, other than pistol and musket? I ask because the Gunslinger gets the Gun Training four times, and we currently only have two guns for it...
3) I take it that each weapon in Gun Training only gets the +1 to hit once, and that's it?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
How's the see invisibility sight work? It lets you make a gun attack against an invisible target, but you cannot use the sight to locate an invisible target? If you can't locate the invisible target with the sight, then how can you make your attack against it? If you can locate the target already somehow, through some other effect, then you shouldn't need the sight in the first place?
1) Deadly Aim does not work with firearms when they are in range of a touch attack, correct? But it does work when the target is greater than one range increment away?
I understand that this is very rules lawyerly of me, but it doesn't say that within the first range increment the attacks made with guns are touch attacks. It says, instead, that they are resolved against the target's touch AC. "When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC." If they wanted it to mean "were touch attacks," they would say explicitly that. Since they are merely 'resolved against the target's touch AC,' I see nothing barring application of the Deadly Aim feat.
3) I take it that each weapon in Gun Training only gets the +1 to hit once, and that's it?
Looks like it. A "+1 to hit and +Dex to damage" one time bonus per gun type.
Something that I would like to mention, in regards to your second bullet (pun intended)... are we going to be seeing guns with a larger capacity than 1? As it stands, the most attacks the gunslinger is ever going to get is 2, and that's if they're a two-weapon fighter. This can, in no way, come anywhere close to any of the other classes as far as damage output is concerned.
|
|
I understand that this is very rules lawyerly of me, but it doesn't say that within the first range increment the attacks made with guns are touch attacks. It says, instead, that they are resolved against the target's touch AC. "When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC." If they wanted it to mean "were touch attacks," they would say explicitly that. Since they are merely 'resolved against the target's touch AC,' I see nothing barring application of the Deadly Aim feat.1) Deadly Aim does not work with firearms when they are in range of a touch attack, correct? But it does work when the target is greater than one range increment away?
That's true... Plus, they really do need Deadly Aim to keep up their damage.
Something that I would like to mention, in regards to your second bullet (pun intended)... are we going to be seeing guns with a larger capacity than 1? As it stands, the most attacks the gunslinger is ever going to get is 2, and that's if they're a two-weapon fighter. This can, in no way, come anywhere close to any of the other classes as far as damage output is concerned.
Well, technically if you have Quick Draw, the TWF chain, Rapid Shot and eight pistols, at a BAB of +16 you could have eight attacks in a full attack. But your point is still valid. Also, the Lightning Reload Deed feat does let you "spend 1 grit point to reload a single barrel of a firearm as a free action", but now you are spending limited resources to reload your weapon. Then again, the wording of "a single barrel of a firearm" does suggest multiple barreled firearms in one shape or another, as does the simple existence of the Capacity stat of the weapons.
Also, Torso shots (using the Targeting deed) can end up being 17-20/x4? Nice. (Though it is a max of once per round, AND requires resource expenditure)
I guess that you could combine signature Deed with Lightning reload to full attack without resource use, but you shouldn't have to wait until 11th level to do that.
I'd rather see a +4 weapon enchantment that allowed a weapon to store multiple shots/powder per barrel rather than negating all chance of a misfire. I'd even allow it for crossbow bolts.
Or more interestingly, for each +1 purchased for this property the weapon can store 2 shots, max 8 additional shots.
I'd rather see a +4 weapon enchantment that allowed a weapon to store multiple shots/powder per barrel rather than negating all chance of a misfire. I'd even allow it for crossbow bolts.
Or more interestingly, for each +1 purchased for this property the weapon can store 2 shots, max 8 additional shots.
Or something higher that enables gun use without reloading (or that allows you to reload quicker [perhaps as a free action if you have rapid reload] or something), similar to Epic Caine's ability in Warmachine. His rate of fire (or how many shots he can shoot before reloading) is infinite. That'd be a welcomed weapon enhancement.
So, first I gotta say I love the Gunslinger and am planning on playing as one ASAP, but I have a couple of questions that I want to make sure I asked first.
1) Deadly Aim does not work with firearms when they are in range of a touch attack, correct? But it does work when the target is greater than one range increment away?
2) What other types of firearms are there, other than pistol and musket? I ask because the Gunslinger gets the Gun Training four times, and we currently only have two guns for it...
3) I take it that each weapon in Gun Training only gets the +1 to hit once, and that's it?
1) As written, you cannot use the Deadly Aim feat for firearm range increments that target touch AC. And while I understand that is annoying, we will have to have an internal discussion on how to rectify that disconnect. It comes with the assumption that touch attacks always come from spells, which is obviously no longer the case.
Thank you for pointing that out.
2) There are a number of other firearms. There are two additional ones in the Inner Sea Guide and there are more in Ultimate Combat. We gave you the ones we want to try out for this playtest. We like to have our secrets. ;-)
3) That’s correct. There is part of me that hates the fact that I we have to point that out, but maybe we have to point that out.
How's the see invisibility sight work? It lets you make a gun attack against an invisible target, but you cannot use the sight to locate an invisible target? If you can't locate the invisible target with the sight, then how can you make your attack against it? If you can locate the target already somehow, through some other effect, then you shouldn't need the sight in the first place?
I think I'll answer your question in the thread about this item. Please see there. Thanks!
1) As written, you cannot use the Deadly Aim feat for firearm range increments that target touch AC. And while I understand that is annoying, we will have to have an internal discussion on how to rectify that disconnect. It comes with the assumption that touch attacks always come from spells, which is obviously no longer the case.
I know, I was just thinking about all of the beautiful BAB that you could "spend" on a touch attack to really shoot the snot out of someone, just going to waste . . . ;)
|
How is TWFing going to work with guns? With a standard action to reload (move with rapid reload) doesn't that preclude a pistol from being used more than once in a round? It would seem that, barring the use of grit and the feat that allows a reload as a free (or was it swift? not near my pdf atm) action, there will be no more than one shot per pistol per round.
1) As written, you cannot use the Deadly Aim feat for firearm range increments that target touch AC. And while I understand that is annoying, we will have to have an internal discussion on how to rectify that disconnect. It comes with the assumption that touch attacks always come from spells, which is obviously no longer the case.
You know early firearms were not noted for penetrating armor -- but the shots were fast. Why not make it use the targets flat footed AC in the first range increment instead of touch?
Granted rogues will like the weapon but they'll still only be getting one shot and well rogues should like the weapon.
You know early firearms were not noted for penetrating armor -- but the shots were fast. Why not make it use the targets flat footed AC in the first range increment instead of touch?
Granted rogues will like the weapon but they'll still only be getting one shot and well rogues should like the weapon.
I kind of like that too, but I get the feeling that that's part of the firearms rules that are already hard wired.
I kind of like that too, but I get the feeling that that's part of the firearms rules that are already hard wired.You know early firearms were not noted for penetrating armor -- but the shots were fast. Why not make it use the targets flat footed AC in the first range increment instead of touch?
Granted rogues will like the weapon but they'll still only be getting one shot and well rogues should like the weapon.
Sadly i think that is true. :(
|
|
1) As written, you cannot use the Deadly Aim feat for firearm range increments that target touch AC. And while I understand that is annoying, we will have to have an internal discussion on how to rectify that disconnect. It comes with the assumption that touch attacks always come from spells, which is obviously no longer the case.
Yikes. That's definitely not something I saw when looking over this class. To me the fact that it's mostly limited to one attack a round (or every two depending on how you build it) lends it to getting as much damage as possible on every attack. Taking out deadly aim would be a large blow, especially since other feats which work like this (Focused Shot from APG) also wouldn't apply as they only mention bows and crossbows.
1) As written, you cannot use the Deadly Aim feat for firearm range increments that target touch AC. And while I understand that is annoying, we will have to have an internal discussion on how to rectify that disconnect. It comes with the assumption that touch attacks always come from spells, which is obviously no longer the case.
Thank you for pointing that out.
The firearm range/penetration blurb says, specifically "the attack resolves against the target's Touch AC."
Both my DM and I took this to mean that you are not rolling a 'ranged touch attack'... it is specifically an ranged attack roll against the Touch AC as opposed to the AC, and thus would allow for Deadly Aim to be applied.
So- is it a 'ranged touch attack'? Or is it an 'attack roll vs touch ac'? :) Given that there are no deeds to specifically enhance damage, and that in fact the only damage boost comes from Gun Training, Deadly Aim would seem to be very important to the 'slinger!
|
1) As written, you cannot use the Deadly Aim feat for firearm range increments that target touch AC. And while I understand that is annoying, we will have to have an internal discussion on how to rectify that disconnect. It comes with the assumption that touch attacks always come from spells, which is obviously no longer the case.
Is there some specific reason why Deadly Aim would not work? As pointed out, the language does not call a pistol shot a ranged touch attack, just that in the first range increment, it gain a benefit that resolves against the touch AC. I know that sounds like semantics, but the RAW already seems to allow DA+pistols. I wonder if there is some power-creep issue or feat/skill/ability combination that would break the game if DA was permitted?
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
merely 'resolved against the target's touch AC,' I see nothing barring application of the Deadly Aim feat.
Otherwise known as a touch attack and Deadly Aim is incompatible with touch attacks. There is no way to argue they can be compatible, and stay within even a thinly stretched RAW.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Not only does the wording of the weapon's entry never say "ranged touch attack" like most spells do, we've had a designer come out and say that the intent was for deadly aim to be unusable with spells.
My point is this is one of those rules situations, where one can see the clear meaning of the RAW yet try to reject that meaning.
In other words, it is crystal clear that the weapon is a ranged touch attack. The fact some choose to consider the wording to not be a ranged touch attack is most likely what he is referring to by the internal discussion.
If they rewrite the "Touch AC" wording to say explicitly "Ranged Touch Attack" the rule is more clear. The frustrating part is something like this is required to be made more clear, at least to me it is frustrating. Now that being said, I'm happy to see changes like this to clarify rules.