While I don't ever tell a player how to build or play their character, I do point out when a certain decision might step on the toes of another character or otherwise adversely affect a character in ways that the player might not notice. I do this not out of some sort of powergaming dickishness, but rather out of a desire to not have my players disappointed when they find out that the build that they envisioned doesn't work out as well in play as it did in their head.
One of my players -- who is actually a very experienced player and DM (with decades more experience than I have) -- is playing a sorcerer/rogue looking toward the Arcane Trickster PrC. Cool beans. The party lacks a dedicated arcane caster, so teaming with the party witch will work out well enough, and he'll have trapfinding and a good Disable Device bonus since our party rogue took an archetype that replaces trapfinding.
Now, I personally build sub-optimal characters all the time (I run monks, for the love of Joe Pesci), but I was taken aback when I heard that this player planned to build his character's shtick around casting "the most badass Magic Missile ever." I want to find some way to see justifying this given my experience deficit versus this player, but I can't for the life of me see this plan as being anything other than a horrible waste of spellcasting resources. Should I say something to this player? Or maybe is there some really good use of a 4th level Magic Missile that I'm not aware of? Or am I completely off-base in making suggestions to my players at all?
Thanks in advance.
If the goal is to build an Arcane Trickster, my guess is he's planning on adding sneak attack damage to each of the missiles (target different foes with each missile). This is gained via the capstone ability for AT's called Surprise Spells.
Alternatively, they could be thinking of adding sneak attack damage to a Magic Missile via the earlier AT ability Impromptu Sneak Attack. But this ability doesn't work with Magic Missile since MM is not a ranged attack.
If they really are building a maximized MM caster AT, I would sit down with them and ask them what they are going for. That seems a weird goal for a character, but to each their own!
Make sure they actually want to maximize it. If they do, they're depressing. They may just be looking forward to doing full sneak attack damage on each magic missile, which may or may not be against the rules.
Make sure they actually want to maximize it. If they do, they're depressing. They may just be looking forward to doing full sneak attack damage on each magic missile, which may or may not be against the rules.
I have no problem interpreting the capstone ability for the Arcane Trickster to allow sneak dice to add to each missile. What I don't get is if you're already getting +7d6 sneak on each missile, why is making the spell take up a slot 3 levels higher worth it to add 3 guaranteed damage per missile?
Well, he should check with the gm if he'd allow Surprise Spells to add sneak attack damage to each magic missile. If yes, that could be a badass of a first level spell. Intensify it for some madness at higher levels.
If not, well, point out to him that an enemy using an amulet of shielding or just the spell shield would shut down his missiles. Actually, point that out to him anyway.
A lesser Metamagic rod of Maximize is 14,000 gold. That is a far better way to go in my opinion.
Well, he should check with the gm if he'd allow Surprise Spells to add sneak attack damage to each magic missile. If yes, that could be a badass of a first level spell. Intensify it for some madness at higher levels.
If not, well, point out to him that an enemy using an amulet of shielding or just the spell shield would shut down his missiles. Actually, point that out to him anyway.
Well, we already know that the GM is fine with that interpretation of the rules since I'm the GM. :P (I would only allow the sneak dice from a particular spell to hit each creature once, so no focus firing the MM at a creature for 35d6 sneak damage.) What I can't wrap my head around is how a 7d6+5 (per shot) MM is so much better than a 1d4+7d6+1 MM as to warrant making it take up a 4th level slot.
If that is the concept that he want to build, as a GM you shouldn't hinder his cause but instead think of a way to help it.
Put it this way, would you be asking for advice if it was a Pali who wanted a build up to be the most badass hammer thrower?
Better to empower a magic missile, more bang for your buck. Same avg damage, but lower level.
I don't think intensified spell works with MM. Intensified spell raises the max dice/level, but MM doesn't get dice/level it gets missiles per level.
There was a 3.5 prestige class in Dragon #388 called Force Missile Mage. If you Google it, it should be one of the first hits
If that is the concept that he want to build, as a GM you shouldn't hinder his cause but instead think of a way to help it.
Like I said, I don't ever tell my players how to run their characters. I just point out when plans might not be destined to work out as well as the player thinks.
Put it this way, would you be asking for advice if it was a Pali who wanted a build up to be the most badass hammer thrower?
There actually wouldn't be much wrong with that build, given the right feats. Hell, I played alongside a guy who ran a barbarian that threw bear traps, and it was great (and hilarious). I just don't understand the value of the trade-off that this player wants to make. I would almost rather that he make his MM a 5th level spell by quickening it so that he could cast it twice on a surprise round and sneak attack the crap out of things.
Better to empower a magic missile, more bang for your buck. Same avg damage, but lower level.
I don't think this is true if Empower doesn't multiply the +1 part of 1d4+1, which if I remember correctly it's specifically stated not to do for Pathfinder. Somewhere. (If it's important I'll dig up one of the threads where it was hashed over before.)
I don't think this is true if Empower doesn't multiply the +1 part of 1d4+1, which if I remember correctly it's specifically stated not to do for Pathfinder. Somewhere. (If it's important I'll dig up one of the threads where it was hashed over before.)Better to empower a magic missile, more bang for your buck. Same avg damage, but lower level.
Even if it doesn't multiply the +1 Maximize still only nets .5 dam/missile
He's going to have three levels of Wizard, right? Let him research more force spells. There's room in the game for a cool force effect at each spell level. Not everything must be done with metamagic.
He's going to have three levels of Wizard, right? Let him research more force spells. There's room in the game for a cool force effect at each spell level. Not everything must be done with metamagic.
Nope. Four levels of sorcerer.
If you ready that Maximized MM against a caster, the DC of that concentration check is going to be 35+level of spell being cast.
That puts things into near auto-spell disruption range for almost any encounter (baring SR, Shield spell, or Long range.)
But you can get near that same effect with a regular MM, until the later levels of the game.
My guess is that he is planning to sneak attack with it, but who knows...
I really like Empowered Sleep.
What are the variable numeric factors of Sleep to affect with Empower Spell? I'm not seeing any.
Just leave the guy be. He wants a bad Magic Missile, good for him. No need to impart your wisdom unless he asks. Just be glad he is putting thought into his character and has goals he wants it to achieve. No need to rain on his parade.
The flipside of that is, I don't think you're really doing him a favor by repeatedly killing his mechanically weak character or pitching softballs so his mechanically weak character won't die.
It's kind of the adult equivalent of letting your kids win at checkers. It's great for their self-esteem, right up until they run into anyone else who plays for real.
Maximizing MM really won't be worth it. It sounds likely that he is just really excited about SA with his sweet MMs. The only think I would point out to him is that Quicken Spell will be a better feat investment for him than Maximize. Even if he is only Quickening a Acid Splash or Ray of Frost, it will pretty much hit like a Fireball with his SA.
But, SA Magic Missile followed by Quickened SA Magic Missile is a pretty strong play. That is a whole lot of d6s being thrown at the bad guys.
If you really just want to help him be the best character he can be, I suggest focusing him toward filling a little battlefield control (Grease, Glitterdust, Web, etc) and shoring up the skills aspect that the other rogue doesn't have covered. Maybe he could even play party Face, since he is a Sorc and obv has a high CHA. Making sure that he can find fun and useful things to do for the first half of his career will be the difficulty. Once he gets past L11-13, he will be more objectively strong and have all sorts of options.
So, I guess: urge him toward Quicken, not Maximize, and just help him find the role he can best fill to his own enjoyment and the party's advantage.
Sunbeam, that's correct (as long as they are flat-footed).
To the OP, does the player realize that if he maximizes a MM he doesn't also maximize the sneak attack damage associated with it via Surprise Spells? If he's thinking that all of the dice are maximized, I can see the grin-inducing appeal. But it doesn't work that way to my knowledge. The MM dice are maximized (25 points) but the SA damage is rolled normally.
I don't believe that you get SA damage on each missile individually unless they are aimed at different targets, but I'd have to dig up my defense argument if pushed on it.
I take it that means you could sneak attack with a fireball or burning hands as well?
I think so.
Without that capstone ability, you can't sneak attack with a magic missile. You need to make an attack roll to SA, and MM just hits automatically.
My god, I thought I had some min/max players, but this thread is well scary..
I have to give you guys kudos, sneak attack with even a basic MM spell would be awesome..and I never thought of it before
and to the person that menrtioned sneak attck using ray of frost! genius!
If you really want to do TWF with a Magus, put a spike on a MW buckler. That becomes your off-hand weapon while still leaving your hand free for spell casting, since the buckler is attached to the arm, not the hand.
To the OP, does the player realize that if he maximizes a MM he doesn't also maximize the sneak attack damage associated with it via Surprise Spells? If he's thinking that all of the dice are maximized, I can see the grin-inducing appeal. But it doesn't work that way to my knowledge. The MM dice are maximized (25 points) but the SA damage is rolled normally.
Actually, even worse. He was planning on empowering his MM also, meaning he would be burning a 6th level spell slot to do a whopping 32 average damage if he focus fires on a single target -- less than a level 2 intensified Shocking Grasp would be doing on average at the same level. Luckily, when I explained that maximizing MM would net him a whole 7.5 damage over the average roll at max level, he seemed to change his mind and lean more toward quickening his MM.
I don't believe that you get SA damage on each missile individually unless they are aimed at different targets, but I'd have to dig up my defense argument if pushed on it.
Yeah, that's how I was going to rule it: only one application of sneak damage per target per casting.
If you really want to do TWF with a Magus, put a spike on a MW buckler. That becomes your off-hand weapon while still leaving your hand free for spell casting, since the buckler is attached to the arm, not the hand.
Wierd, this is not the thread I posted this to. :(
If you really want to do TWF with a Magus, put a spike on a MW buckler. That becomes your off-hand weapon while still leaving your hand free for spell casting, since the buckler is attached to the arm, not the hand.Wierd, this is not the thread I posted this to. :(
HAHA, it is now :)
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Magic Missile build, key things:
Force Missile Mage: your MM's ignore Shield; get 2 more; they can do elemental dmg; +2 Spell Penetration.
So, 7d4+7.
The extra missiles of MM are extra dice of dmg. Intensify should work just fine, and haven't seen errata saying no.
BUT! You want: Energize; Empower; Twin Spell; Metamagic Spell (Magic Missle), and most importantly, ARcane Thesis (M Missile) for +2 Caster levels and -1/meta to cost (min 0), along with Efficient Metamagic (Twin, Quicken). Elemental Admixture is also possible if you take Force Missile Mage.
With the two traits that give you +1 caster level and -1 to MM costs, you get the following.
Level 1 - Empowered Energized Magic Missile, for 7d x2 vs undead, x1.5 against everything else. 14d4+14 or 10.5d4 +10.5.
Level 2 - Energized Twin Magic missile, 21 Dice against undead, 14 everyone else.
or Quickened Energized MM, 7d4 as a swift action.
Level 3- Energized Empowered Twin Magic Missile: 21d4 to everyone, 28d to undead.
Quickened Energized Empowered MM - 14 to undead, 10.5 as swift.
Level 4 - Twin Quickened Energized MM OR TWIN ADmixtured Energized MM. 28 d to everyone, and 42d to undead.
Level 5- Twin Quickened Energized Empowered or Twin Admixture Energized Empowered MM. 42d to everyone, or 56d to undead.
Add Rods of maximize and watch the fun. Feats of +1 or +0 basically tack on effect without cost, due to ARcane Thesis. So you can add Banespell for +2d6 for 0 cost.
If you add Intensify, then damage will scale up to 12d6+12 base. Making it Efficient makes it free, but otherwise +1.
Numbers go 12d4+12, 18d4+18, 24d4+24, 36d4+36, 48d4+48, 72d4+72, 96d4+96 vs undead as a level 5 spell at 17th level with your +3 level bonus.
Basically, your only limit is how many feats you have. Note that last, if maximized by a Rod, is 480 pts of MM dmg to the forehead of some undead, while a 'normal' creature only takes 360, with a 180 dmg swift action kicker (270 if undead).
Yes, Magic mIssile can be wicked powerful with the right feat combos.
==+Aelryinth
All I keep thinking is this character around lv16 being told by his GM over and over again, you do no damage enemy has a shield spell on, you do no damage enemy has a minor globe of invulnerability on
All I keep thinking is this character around lv16 being told by his GM over and over again, you do no damage enemy has a shield spell on, you do no damage enemy has a minor globe of invulnerability on
Force Missile Mage - Your MM's are not stopped by shield spells or broaches. And how many monsters have shield spells up? heh. Those are the ones you hit with a dispel because,you know, you CAN use other spells.
And Kindly reiterate in your games the exact number of times you've seen a globe of invuln, and how it is NOT going to attract an instant display or a volley of archer fire :) Seriously, it's not a problem. You take your 36d4+36 dmg 3rd level slot and pop something for 125ish dmg, and the melee guy will walk up to the nitwit making a target of himself in his unmoving globe of can't-stop-a-sword.
If used intelligently, heavily metamagiced magic missiles have the potential to be devastating (such as the aforementioned delayed actions).
Also, as far as I can tell, empower spell DOES effect the +1 after the d4, intensify spell does NOT work with magic missile, and sneak attack damage dice would also be maximized on a maximized magic missile (after all, all the damage is being caused by the magic missile).
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If used intelligently, heavily metamagiced magic missiles have the potential to be devastating (such as the aforementioned delayed actions).
Also, as far as I can tell, empower spell DOES effect the +1 after the d4, intensify spell does NOT work with magic missile, and sneak attack damage dice would also be maximized on a maximized magic missile (after all, all the damage is being caused by the magic missile).
SA isn't maximized because its not part of the spell its self, its a different ability. The dice are a variable part of sneak attack, not of magic missile. Same way a maximized summon doesn't do max damage on all its attacks
This reminds me of Eldritch Giant from MM3. I rebuilt one with Quicken Spell-like ability (magic missile) and Maximize Spell-like ability (magic missile), and 3 times per day, it could lay down 25 points of ranged damage as a swift action while full attacking in melee. Fun! And maximizing the damage just made that aspect of the combat round really quick (no rolling!).
SA isn't maximized because its not part of the spell its self, its a different ability. The dice are a variable part of sneak attack, not of magic missile. Same way a maximized summon doesn't do max damage on all its attacksIf used intelligently, heavily metamagiced magic missiles have the potential to be devastating (such as the aforementioned delayed actions).
Also, as far as I can tell, empower spell DOES effect the +1 after the d4, intensify spell does NOT work with magic missile, and sneak attack damage dice would also be maximized on a maximized magic missile (after all, all the damage is being caused by the magic missile).
Are you also going to deny that the sneak attack damage in this instance is force damage?
You will have a hard time convincing me that the sneak attack damage from my having stabbed someone isn't from the dagger I'm thrusting into their vital organs.
This is no different as far as I'm concerned.
If someone were to sneak attack with vampiric touch, they would gain proportionately more temporary hit points.
This is how it works in my games and this is also how I believe it was intended. Feel free to disagree. It won't change the way I do it in my games.
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SA isn't maximized because its not part of the spell its self, its a different ability. The dice are a variable part of sneak attack, not of magic missile. Same way a maximized summon doesn't do max damage on all its attacksIf used intelligently, heavily metamagiced magic missiles have the potential to be devastating (such as the aforementioned delayed actions).
Also, as far as I can tell, empower spell DOES effect the +1 after the d4, intensify spell does NOT work with magic missile, and sneak attack damage dice would also be maximized on a maximized magic missile (after all, all the damage is being caused by the magic missile).
Are you also going to deny that the sneak attack damage in this instance is force damage?
You will have a hard time convincing me that the sneak attack damage from my having stabbed someone isn't from the dagger I'm thrusting into their vital organs.
This is no different as far as I'm concerned.
If someone were to sneak attack with vampiric touch, they would gain proportionately more temporary hit points.
This is how it works in my games and this is also how I believe it was intended. Feel free to disagree. It won't change the way I do it in my games.
According to Jason that +1 is not empowered. I houserule differently though. He probably won't fix it in the FAQ unless there is a request for it since he answered it on the boards. The sneak attack damage is force damage, assuming you could crit with a magic missle, but the empower spell only affect damage from the spell itself. This is a good FAQ though.
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SA isn't maximized because its not part of the spell its self, its a different ability. The dice are a variable part of sneak attack, not of magic missile. Same way a maximized summon doesn't do max damage on all its attacksIf used intelligently, heavily metamagiced magic missiles have the potential to be devastating (such as the aforementioned delayed actions).
Also, as far as I can tell, empower spell DOES effect the +1 after the d4, intensify spell does NOT work with magic missile, and sneak attack damage dice would also be maximized on a maximized magic missile (after all, all the damage is being caused by the magic missile).
Are you also going to deny that the sneak attack damage in this instance is force damage?
You will have a hard time convincing me that the sneak attack damage from my having stabbed someone isn't from the dagger I'm thrusting into their vital organs.
This is no different as far as I'm concerned.
If someone were to sneak attack with vampiric touch, they would gain proportionately more temporary hit points.
This is how it works in my games and this is also how I believe it was intended. Feel free to disagree. It won't change the way I do it in my games.
So you can empower SA too then?
If I ever play a game with you I need the trait for -1 metamagic and spam empowered acid splashes
According to Jason that +1 is not empowered. I houserule differently though. He probably won't fix it in the FAQ unless there is a request for it since he answered it on the boards. The sneak attack damage is force damage, assuming you could crit with a magic missle, but the empower spell only affect damage from the spell itself. This is a good FAQ though.
That's unfortunate. It totally messes with the balance of the feat (as compared to other metamagic feats) and makes it practically useless.
It wasn't that way in v3.5, where they had an example which specifically showed that the +1's were included. If Jason intends to change this from previous iterations of the game, that's fine, but I will likely be house ruling it much like yourself.
So you can empower SA too then?If I ever play a game with you I need the trait for -1 metamagic and spam empowered acid splashes
Yes. I don't see any reason why not.
I would most likely welcome such a character as well (my decision would be based on other factors).
Actually, maximized magic missile is probably one of your better (core) evoker 4th level investments. 25 points of damage that can't miss and can't be resisted (generally) isn't a terrible option when your other two options are ice storm (17 damage which can be resisted and saved against) or shout (same) or one of the wall spells (useful, but not much on direct damage). The best choice (again, core), would of course be fire shield, but that requires you being attacked as well.
So on its own, as a 4th level investment, maximized magic missiles are hardly what I would call suboptimal. The truth is, 4th level is simply not evocation's strong suit. (The other strong metamagic contender is, of course, empowered scorching ray, which far out perform maximized magic missiles.)
Though I admit that a lesser rod of maximize is the far wiser investment in terms of metamagicking magic missile.
I would agree with Aelryinth up thread check and see if he is planning on adding force missile mage to the mix. If so its a solid non-SOD caster option especially once he gets spell perfection. Archmage mentioned scorching ray which would be a nice option for his non capstone spell sneak attack capabilities.
The big question is: is he and everyone else playing having fun? If this character is stressing out the other players: because they prefer more optimized play, feel like he is not "carrying his weight", whatever; then there may be an issue with this concept.
If, as the GM, you know that a major long term story arc of the game will be dealing with golem sentries still guarding an ancient city then you need to talk not only to this player but the witch as well as both are gonna get jammed by spell immunity. Otherwise let him play what/how he wants.
at which point he simply memorizes something other then magic missiles for offense, or gets no save, no resist spells and does spell support while others kill. Not every fight is going to be constructs.
He STILL has all the options a wizard does vs spell selection. he has what they do not...effective blasting damage.
The real killer is if you do burning hands for Thesis and a level of spellwarp sniper...then your second meta is Split Ray for free, and you can throw off a pair of 7.5d4 (10d4 against undead) as a first level spell, and dmg only goes up from there. Down side is RT attack, SR AND it's fire based...although I understand some sorc builds do really, really well with fire.
Also note on the comparison against other 4th level spells; Ice Storm is an AoE; Empowered Scorching Ray also requires 3 ranged touch attacks, and if you hit with all three would do 18-108, or about 63...and its all fire dmg.
Magic Missile is generally used because it's force dmg; it can hit incorps; you don't have to hit (esp with mage lousy BAB); and at level 1, you have tons of room to meta it. But like all metamagic, unless you can offset the meta costs or reduce them, blasting just does not work.
With Force Missile Mage upping the base dice to 7, and intensify for another +5, Magic Missile damage can outstrip Scorching Ray easily. That extra +1 level of play means a lot.
==Aelryinth
With Force Missile Mage upping the base dice to 7, and intensify for another +5, Magic Missile damage can outstrip Scorching Ray easily. That extra +1 level of play means a lot.
==Aelryinth
I'm not going to allow Intensify to be added to MM (MM duplicates projectiles rather than adding dice), but even if I did, it would only add 2 more missiles instead of 5 since Intensify increases the level cap by 5 rather than the dice cap.
All that aside, quick rules interpretation question to see if this would be a viable tactic for this player. Dazing MM on the surprise round: would this leave targets who fail their saves vs the daze flat-footed into the 2nd round of combat? Or does simply coming up in the initiative order give a creature its Dex bonus back? If the former, then I can see this tactic turning MM into a decently effective battlefield control spell vs low Will enemies and even allowing a 2nd turn worth of sneak dice to be applied.