I would say yes. Brass knuckles are just like any other weapon, and could be made of special materials, enchanted, etc. etc.
On a like note, are cestus much the same? The description doesn't state you can use your unarmed damage. I assume you can't because it adds piercing to the type of damage you can do and has a higher chance to crit.
The listing of cestii under 'light weapons' rather than 'unarmed attacks' suggests that they don't allow monks to use their superior unarmed damage. Also, brass knuckles description takes the trouble to explicitly spell out such an exception, and cestus doesn't.
That said, the reference to unarmed attacks in the cestus text is potentially misleading. Personally, I feel it would be better to treat a cestus as a standard weapon rather than a variant of the gauntlet.
Thus, you could have a cold iron cestus, you could flurry with it, but you would only deal 1d4 (M) based damage with it.
But are they really *brass*knuckles if they are Adamantine?
j/k
And +1 to waht they said; Craft and Enchant as normal :)
GNOME
When you buy "brass knuckles" are you getting a single item (for one hand) or a pair (for both hands)? The discussion came up recently in our group. I assume it is just one rather than a pair, but I wasn't certain.
Also, in order to utilize a set of brass knuckles that are either enchanted or made of special metal, all of your attacks must be made with that fist, correct?
Thanks!
Well, for me it's more a matter of visualization. The monk in the group I run for is about to get magical brass knuckles (his only magic melee weapon) and he will use them for all of his flurry of blows when in melee. So visually he is only attacking with one hand rather than a multitude of unarmed strikes. It's just kind of meh from a storytelling standpoint, but it does make sense from a rules standpoint.
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Just to clarify, there is a penalty to using brass knuckles , which is if you are restrained in anyway in a manner that prevents you from using your fists then any bonuses are lost.
As written a monk can unarmed attack with any part of his body, but Brass Knuckle enhancements/enchantments only work with the fists.
This is why amulets of mighty fists are superior (and costlier)
whats wrong with using threaded hand wraps to overcome DR?
Nothing is wrong with threaded handwraps. The Brassknuckles *also* fit in very well with the numerous Intimidate/Thug abilities in the APG. Brawler Barb, Thug Rogue, Enforcer Feat... :)
It's not all about the Monk ;)
GNOME
Well, for me it's more a matter of visualization. The monk in the group I run for is about to get magical brass knuckles (his only magic melee weapon) and he will use them for all of his flurry of blows when in melee. So visually he is only attacking with one hand rather than a multitude of unarmed strikes. It's just kind of meh from a storytelling standpoint, but it does make sense from a rules standpoint.
I play a monk and interpret the Pathfinderised flurry rules as following two-weapon fighting, i.e. the extra attacks come from the "off-hand" (or foot/elbow/etc.), so I don't allow my own PC to use all flurry attacks with brass knuckles. It depends how weasly you want to get with wording of the flurry rules, namely that they function "as if two-weapon fighting".
I would rule that if he wants to have BKs for all his flurries then he needs to get two BKs.
Well, for me it's more a matter of visualization. The monk in the group I run for is about to get magical brass knuckles (his only magic melee weapon) and he will use them for all of his flurry of blows when in melee. So visually he is only attacking with one hand rather than a multitude of unarmed strikes. It's just kind of meh from a storytelling standpoint, but it does make sense from a rules standpoint.I play a monk and interpret the Pathfinderised flurry rules as following two-weapon fighting, i.e. the extra attacks come from the "off-hand" (or foot/elbow/etc.), so I don't allow my own PC to use all flurry attacks with brass knuckles. It depends how weasly you want to get with wording of the flurry rules, namely that they function "as if two-weapon fighting".
I would rule that if he wants to have BKs for all his flurries then he needs to get two BKs.
Funny, I would say it is weasly to try and pin a flurry to requiring two weapons. It's not that hard to imagine a monk make a flurry of attacks with a (single) temple sword. Why should it be any different with a brass knuckles?
In fact, the Zen Archer can flurry with a (single) longbow. That is a pretty compelling argument right there.
Ive never like the brassknuckles.
I love playing monks because they can fight without any weapons, putting brassknuckles in one hand (or both) seems to not really fit well with the character class. Then again, the flavour text has changed to make them out as more of an unarmed brute than a priest class.
Personally I dont see myself ever using brassknuckles as a monk. Id rather use a staff.
Funny, I would say it is weasly to try and pin a flurry to requiring two weapons. It's not that hard to imagine a monk make a flurry of attacks with a (single) temple sword. Why should it be any different with a brass knuckles?
In fact, the Zen Archer can flurry with a (single) longbow. That is a pretty compelling argument right there.
Sure. The real world practical physics would work a little different, you wouldn't get as much torque with a punch as would with a longer hand weapon, making effective multiple punches with one hand difficult (barring some lethal string of jabs, but that lacks force) but we RPG in phantasy physics. If you're happy that a monk with no legs and one arm could still flurry with their remaining limb, then more power to you. Its each to their own game.
But based on my reading of the implementation of TWF in flurry then I wouldn't allow a monk to flurry all his attacks with a temple sword, something else (punch, kick, elbow, etc.) would have to occur for the 'off-hand' attack. You could argue that its in the interest of game balance or consistent combat mechanics, whereby Flurry of Blows effectively provides monks with a virtual tier of TWF feats, but restricted only to monk weapons. If you wanted more attacks with a single weapon then choose a full BAB class.
Zen Archer would be an exception to the two-weapon mechanics of flurry. I'm fine with this for flavour reasons and in the interest of building a viable archery build. But this ability is balanced by the fact that the Zen Archer doesn't get an equivalent of the monks improved unarmed damage.
But based on my reading of the implementation of TWF in flurry then I wouldn't allow a monk to flurry all his attacks with a temple sword, something else (punch, kick, elbow, etc.) would have to occur for the 'off-hand' attack. You could argue that its in the interest of game balance or consistent combat mechanics, whereby Flurry of Blows effectively provides monks with a virtual tier of TWF feats, but restricted only to monk weapons. If you wanted more attacks with a single weapon then choose a full BAB class.Zen Archer would be an exception to the two-weapon mechanics of flurry. I'm fine with this for flavour reasons and in the interest of building a viable archery build. But this ability is balanced by the fact that the Zen Archer doesn't get an equivalent of the monks improved unarmed damage.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
The sentence is overly complex in structure. The part about 'like two weapon fighting' is modifying the 'extra attack' portion, not the 'with a weapon portion' that's bolded. Please note the word any in the bolded portion. Any combination.
Any combination means just that, any combination. It doesn't say 'any combination that doesn't repeat the same attack vector' which is how you are interpreting it. It doesn't say 'any combination provided the same attack is not used more than once in a row', which is how you are interpreting it. It says any combination.
That means, if someone has 3 attacks in the flurry, has a sai in one hand, brass knuckles on their other hand, a head and two feet, they can do the following :
Headbutt, sai, punch
Kick, Sai, Punch
Punch, Sai, Punch
Headbutt, Headbutt, Kick to groin
Kick, Kick, Kick
Kick, Punch, Sai
Punch, Punch, Punch
The number of valid combinations is 5 (head, punch, sai, kick left, kick right) x 5 x 5. Or, 125 possible combinations of attacks, all of which are valid since the rules say any combination. The bit about two weapon fighting is there to modify the part about getting an extra attack (penalties for using it, how it follows feat progression for TWF as he levels, etc). It's there to simplify the rules, rather than duplicating the TWF extra attack progressions and penalties in detail.
...{well reasoned responce}...
Well said, sir. Well said.
Greg
...{well reasoned responce}...Well said, sir. Well said.
Greg
+1
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Huh, I always thought that you couldn't flurry with the brass knuckles.
Brass Knuckles: ..."They allow you to deal lethal
damage with unarmed attacks. ... Monks
are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk
unarmed damage when fighting with them."
Flurry of Blows (Ex): "Starting at 1st level, a monk
can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
When doing so he may make one additional
attack using any combination of unarmed
strikes or attacks with a special monk
weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff,
sai, shuriken, and siangham)"
It's still a weapon. It just has a special ability to allow monks to deal their unarmed damage through it. I mean, it's in the simple weapons table as an unarmed attack, not an unarmed strike.
What am I missing? Because that would make monks so much better to play :D
What am I missing? Because that would make monks so much better to play :D
Table 4-1 in the APG Brass Knuckle listing... under special "monk"
core book page 145 for description of "monk" weapons...
Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flury of blows (see chapter 3)
Ta dah!
Greg
The sentence is overly complex in structure.
Agreed.
The part about 'like two weapon fighting' is modifying the 'extra attack' portion, not the 'with a weapon portion' that's bolded. Please note the word any in the bolded portion. Any combination.
Any combination means just that, any combination. It doesn't say 'any combination that doesn't repeat the same attack vector' which is how you are interpreting it. It doesn't say 'any combination provided the same attack is not used more than once in a row', which is how you are...
I can totally see the basis for your argument. I just took my interpretation since TWF involves the use of more than one weapon to generate extra attacks, which implies the same weapon can't be used for those extra attacks. The designers were never clear about what they chose to incorporate from TWF into Flurry (just the extra attacks and penalties, or the whole mechanic). In the absence of any explicit statement I decided to try incorporating the TWF mechanic wholesale.
Because I could equally well argue that the overly complex sentence suggests that, yes, a monk can use "any combination" of attacks provided it conforms to the TWF rules.
That said, there is no clue within the sentence as written as to which phrase should take rules precedence. The more permissive interpretation seems more popular (no doubt because its more powerful), but I find it a little unrealistic.
If my DM ruled your way, I could live with it. It would certainly make it more cost efficient when trying to optimise magic item spending plus damage output for flurry since I could just use an Amulet of Mighty Blows and an enchanted Brass Knuckle for all my attacks. But I know others who have slammed this as a balance issue.
3)Flurry of blows does not specify what body parts you must use when flurrying, and the monk class description goes out of its way to say a monk can attack with any part of their body, they are specifically not restricted.
Yes, but we were talking about brass knuckles which can't be worn on your "foot, elbow, or left butt cheek". :)
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What am I missing? Because that would make monks so much better to play :DTable 4-1 in the APG Brass Knuckle listing... under special "monk"
core book page 145 for description of "monk" weapons...
Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flury of blows (see chapter 3)
Ta dah!
Greg
I wish you could have heard the girlish squeal of glee that just ripped itself free of my throat :)
I wish you could have heard the girlish squeal of glee that just ripped itself free of my throat :)
I thought my smoke alarm battery was needing replaced. ~whew~
Greg
:P
PS Live well and enchant your primary weapon cheaper, my friend.