I'm currently GMing for a group who are midway through the first Kingmaker instalment. We have four PCs: Fighter, Druid, Rogue and Bard, all just about to advance to 3rd level. The Bard player has been muttering about multiclassing into a more combat focussed role, and I'm wondering what advice I should give him.
His attributes are awesome (randomly rolled, but would work out at about 40pts if purchased), with Charisma of 18. Initially we were talking about Fighter, to pick up a few bonus feats, or Ranger to fit the wilderness environment. However, he has just realised that his Cha suits him for Paladin
Gives the weapon proficiencies he's after (ie: longbow)
Provides party support/buff abilities
Cool Cha based bonuses
Allows him to play a self righteous pain in the @$$ which could very well be the main selling point ;)
It also fits with the immediate situation, as they've just done a big favour for a LG priest
We're not too concerned about uber-optimization. However, I'd be interested to read what people think about the utility of this combination. Do a couple of Paladin levels complement a Bard, or vice-versa? Or does it just create an unholy mess of stunted abilities with no synergies to recommend it?
Baldy
If I had a player unhappy with his Bard not being fighty enough, I'd suggest taking the Arcane Duelist package in the APG. (I'd also let him take it now, even though he technically should have decided at 1st level.)
Can you post some more of his build? Attributes, Feats, spells known, race, etc.
I would tend to agree. Multiclassing to Paladin will likely hurt more the be a help over the long run. Both the Bard and Paladin have core class abilites that really depend on taking levels in the class.
Depending on the current bulid he could maybe get away with dipping 2 levels of Paladin, I'd go no more. He'll then need to take extra feats to get more smites if he wants them. Charisma to Atk and AC on smite, Cha to saved, a small number of Lay on Hands. He will still only be able to use light armor if he wants to cast without fail.
What does your player think of the stuff Arcane Dualist replaces? If he's cool not having those abilites then I'd say just let him rebuild/retcon to that Archetype.
Thanks Phneri and Blueluck
Human (as at L2)
Str 12
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 17
Wis 13
Cha 18
HP 21
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Spell Penetration, Toughness*
Spells: CLW, Feather Fall, Grease
*I started the campaign with only 3 players, so I gave everyone Toughness as a freebie so that they'd have a good chance to survive a few levels without me having to fudge. Of course, its proved a bit too good, but so long as the players are happy...
PBS was at my suggestion (after reading Treantmonk's guide). Spell Penetration was at his insistence.
I'm not using APG material for this campaign. We're new to Pathfinder, so the core stuff is awesomeness enough for now.
I think his decision is more for the feel of the character, rather than to get specific goodies. He's always played melee focussed characters, and I think he's not comfy with what he sees as a support/buff role. One thing I have noticed is that he's stopped bothering with using his Inspire Courage comedic routine. Plus his spells slots have been mainly used to CLW on "Mr Charge" the fighter, which I think annoys him more than a little.
Its 100% his choice, of course. I just want to be able to forewarn him of any obvious pitfalls or redundancies that might bite him at future levels.
Thanks Dorje. Good points
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I know you said you only wanted core, but I'll echoe the previous posters- Arcane Duelist sounds EXACTLY the kind of Bard your player wants to be.
Spell Penetration is a completely worthless feat for several levels. He may as well have spent it on Skill Focus: Underwater Basketweaving (although perhaps he could make money that way so it would actually be a better feat...)
Wisdome is way to low to make a good paladin, or do well with Ranger for animal charisma and spells there too... but a couple of levels in fighter would work great with the high dex and a rapier... or he could quest and find one of those books of improving your wisdome score +5, not sure the actual name... so he would have a Paladins wisdome of 18 :) Wow, you beat the X and found the Y and there was this book in there too... 1 week of reading later ;) and a ceramony by the priest of Erastil and I pronounce you a Paladin of the Chirch my sone :)
Spell Penetration is a completely worthless feat for several levels. He may as well have spent it on Skill Focus: Underwater Basketweaving (although perhaps he could make money that way so it would actually be a better feat...)
I know, I know. But short of getting him in a headlock and creating his character for him, there's nothing I could have done about it. Come what may, that Spell Penetration feat was going to be on his character sheet.
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I'm not really sure what case people are making for a Paladin needing Wisdom- this is not 3.5 anymore kids. Paladin's cast from Charisma now AND have a high will save. Wisdoms one of the best 'dump stats' for a Paladin.
If hes going to multiclass into anything, i'd make it Paladin. But even that is a pretty poor choice with his feat selection.
Paladin works okay with bard. The main ‘issues’ with the Bard/Paladin build I see are Lay on Hands is going to be very weak and low skill points for a bard can be problematic. Taking that 3rd paladin level for Mercy helps make Lay on Hands more useful, but is probably not worth the opportunity cost of improving the bard abilities. The good Int bonus can alleviate the skill point issue somewhat.
I think the best fit would be ranger (with the small caveat that the player is interested in taking one of the Combat Style feats). It gets him everything he wants - no mechanical reason a bard/ranger can’t be a self righteous pain in the @$$ - without any awkward vestigial class features and has more synergy with a bard’s role and the campaign setting.
Edit: Wanted to add… If you think healing and buffing are not doing ‘it’ for him, paladin is not the way to go.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
As was already mentioned, the bard is a little low on STR - but what about PrC Dragon Disciple?
His CHA is actually almost too high for it, but he can put all his stat advances in STR and maybe 1 in DEX, he gets a bonus to STR as a DD, his spell casting as a bard is advanced (so he can get 6th lvl spells) and end at something like bard 14/dd 6 (although the AP will most probably not take him to lvl 20).
Ruyan.
Allows him to play a self righteous pain in the @$$ which could very well be the main selling point ;)
This line confuses me. Does becoming a paladin magically make someone a self-righteous pain in the ass? Even if they weren't before?
I have no problems with Paladins in general. But I suspect mischief is intended. The druid in the party also follows Erastil, and since the two players like to wind each other up, I foresee some religious schisms developing in the Greenbelt.
Just a reminder that in Pathfinder, Paladins DON'T need much Wisdom anymore. Their casting is based off of Charisma now, AND they get their Cha bonus on all saves as well.
To the OP, if he wants to multiclass into Paladin, I'd reccomend to him to take ALL his future levels in Paladin. Or as the GM, you could make up some sort of ritual involving the spoiler to let him swap out his Bard levels for paladin levels entirely.
PS - He doesn't have to play a Paladin to be a self-righteous PITA. He can do that just fine with any character if he wants to.
To the OP, if he wants to multiclass into Paladin, I'd reccomend to him to take ALL his future levels in Paladin.
+1
Even with his high "equivalent point buy," he isn't built for ANY kind of combat. Once you get higher in level, he won't even be a passable ranged fighter without focusing on it.
Sure, Paladin would be ok if he was just going to dive into Dragon Disciple, but other than that, he would probably be better off staying Bard and focusing on trying to do combat maneuvers with a whip.
I highly suggest adopting the APG.
The sheer volume of options feels, to me, like a relief from the humdrum.
Take a look at the Oracle(Battle, Nature, Stone Mysteries comes to mind?)
Have you considered Cavalier then into the Battle Herald PrC? I've not really looked at BH much myself but the concept swould seem perfect for a kingmaker game.
Battle Herald linked for your reading pleasure. :)
An Archer Paladin is a moderately decent multiclass option(and it jives with the Erastil focus).
He's never going to be stellar in terms of damage production but random stat generation rarely creates super optimized builds.
Honestly though I'm not a big fan of multiclassing in PF unless you are really wanting to do a hybrid build.
The Arcane Duelist is a decent option but if you are willing to let him re-skin the character and go Elf (in order to get the long bow) and play him like a typical switch-hitter bard (Arcane Duelist if needed).
I'm kinda confused about spell penetration as a feat selection though. It's not really a great feat for low level casters and I question it for bards.
I'll revise what I said and bring up that I used to Mulitclass Ranger Bard back in 3.5. The trouble is Paizo really did make strong 1-20 classes so it doesnt feel a good going Bard 10/Ranger 10, or more accurately Bard 10/ Ranger 8 /Shadow Dancer 2.
Again with ranger, no more then getting the first Combat Style. If he really likes the less support more offense he could continue in Ranger, putting a point into wisdom, and get the hunters bond to allies. Although he ends up looking more like a baddly played old 3.5 bard who just stood around and sung/buffed.
Another downside of wandering off Bard is it slows down the speed with which he can start music.
He's 2nd now, going on 3rd... I'd work on that headlock because if he wants to get shooty with a bow he really needed that feat put toward the archery tree. Either Rapid Shot or Precise Shot so he can be effective shooting into melee. Like flurry, his own Bardic music will help him spam extra damage out those arrows.
If he wants to be a serious archer bard he should have point-blank shot (check), precise shot (nerrr), and if he isn't happy with his damage output either Rapid Shot or Deadly Aim as he hits 3rd level.
Maybe let him "try" with Precise Shot for a combat or two. That -4 to shooting into melee can hurt bad sometimes.
1st: Point, Precise
3rd: Deadly Aim or Rapid Shot
5th: whichever you didn't pick before:
7th: Open feat (Spell Penetration as now it can start seeing use, still iffy)
9th: Manyshot (after two ups in Dex)
That's what I would consider a good starting selection for Archer Bards looking ahead. Performance and self-buffing help. The more arrows he shoots the further his damage bonus goes. The attack bonus helps off set the penalties for throwing more damage.
In terms of things he's shooting at... he should be looking to clear weak foes. Assuming the rogue is melee the he and the fighter can tag team big guys. If the bard focuses on dropping one weaker foe on the edge of the melee a turn he's do exactly what he needs to, less chance of soft cover by whittling down a melee ball.
He's never going to be stellar in terms of damage production but random stat generation rarely creates super optimized builds.
He would have been remarkably better off with a 17 in Dex and 15 in Int, IMO.
One thing I have noticed is that he's stopped bothering with using his Inspire Courage comedic routine.
This may be the death knell of his life as a Bard, right here. Inspire Courage is almost as fundamental a Bard feature as there is. If he's not even using it, and doesn't seem to want to, I worry he won't enjoy himself down the road and these two Bard levels will just take up space and weaken his endeavors as a Paladin. It would be like a Barbarian who doesn't bother to Rage.
Since it's only level 3, you might want to extend the offer to him to redo his character... or convince him that Inspire Courage has a huge impact on the party's offense at later levels. Nature's Allies plus Animal Companion, helping the Rogue land its sneaks and Fighter confirm its crits, even taking a cohort and letting it hit like it's a few levels higher. Not to mention, Inspire Courage adds a point of average damage to his shortbow attacks, equaling the damage of a longbow.
Plus his spells slots have been mainly used to CLW on "Mr Charge" the fighter, which I think annoys him more than a little.
CLW is okay for a Bard at level 2, but obviously his role with spells will need to change at higher levels, since Bards are hardly good healers. If he doesn't like using these spells, multiclassing won't change this. He wouldn't gain Paladin spells until level 6, and what would he get? Why, CLW of course! Obviously Paladin spells aren't the class's selling point, but upon getting to level 6, these spells will seem more like jokes and he probably won't be any more interested in them than he is in his Bardic Performance right now.
Ironically, my last character was a Paladin. He felt rather stifling with his low movement and skill points (compared to how I usually play). Action economy was bad, too - at the beginning of every fight, I had options like Detect Evil, Smite Evil, and Divine Bond to worry about, while the Fighter waded ahead of me to the front line, Cleaving as he went. Right now I'm playing a Bard and it's working out nicely (though one flaw the two classes share is a total lack of bonus feats - another thing your player should be conscious of if he combines them).
I'm currently GMing for a group who are midway through the first Kingmaker instalment. We have four PCs: Fighter, Druid, Rogue and Bard, all just about to advance to 3rd level. The Bard player has been muttering about multiclassing into a more combat focussed role, and I'm wondering what advice I should give him.
His attributes are awesome (randomly rolled, but would work out at about 40pts if purchased), with Charisma of 18.
Human (as at L2)
Str 12
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 17
Wis 13
Cha 18HP 21
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Spell Penetration, Toughness*
Spells: CLW, Feather Fall, Grease
Honestly, he's built terribly compared to what you say he wants his intended role to be. It's really easy to fix though and he doesn't need to water his character down with multi-classing. Just flip his stats/feats around and put him in the Arcane Duelist archetype.
Human (as at L2)
Str 17
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 15
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Toughness*
Spells: CLW, Feather Fall, Grease
Level ups go to bring Cha to 16, then either Str or Dex depending on if he is ranged or melee focused.
Use Arcane Duelist and take advantage of the free feats, i.e.
* 1st level - Arcane Strike replaces bardic knowledge
* 2nd level — Combat Casting
Now he's a decent damage dealer and a versatile combatant.
He would have been remarkably better off with a 17 in Dex and 15 in Int, IMO.
He's never going to be stellar in terms of damage production but random stat generation rarely creates super optimized builds.
Agreed, if he has a chance to rebuild from scratch I'd go with a Elven Bard (in order to get the Long Bow he wants for free) and get a 19 in Dex and 17 in Int. I'm assuming that the Cha 18 was prior to Racial adjustments.
Con 12 isn't stellar for durability but you can put favored class bonus into HPs and break even.
19 Dex gets you +4 to ranged attacks which makes for a relatively decent ranged bard. Combined with buffing and I think it would contribute to the party much more than the current config.
If we are only talking retraining then I'm less thrilled with the options.
Thanks for posting the details, that helps a lot.
I don't think your player wants to play a bard. Let him make a new character.
Thanks for the responses. Good stuff.
We had a chat last night, and he decided to give paladin a go, mainly because of the RP/motivation aspect. We have changed out SP feat to Precise Shot, and he's taking Rapid Shot for his Level 3 feat.
When Stolen Lands is completed, I'm going to give all the players opportunity to tweak/rewrite their characters during the kingdom building downtime, so he will have the option of going back to pure Bard, changing to pure Pally, or any other combination.
Cheers
Baldy