I agree with most people here. It's a non issue.
Verbal and somatic components are various ingredients that are used to form and guide the magical energy.
Humanoids use their hands because it's the most dexterous part of our bodies, and we use them every day.
A blink dog might wave its tail in certain patterns, traces odd lines in the air with it's paws, or even use their snout to perform the movements necessary to guide the spell.
A Naga can use its tail in the same fashion, sway like a cobra in a snake charmers basket, and weave their head in strange designs.
It's all about guiding energy base on basic magical principles. Different movements can be used to the same affect. It's simply a matter of how you learned to do what. I find it hard to believe that two wizards from different schools of thought from two different continents and cultures would use the same gestures. That why spellcraft is used to identify a spell being cast based on how they seem to be directing the energy.
Nothing that hasn't already been said. Nevertheless I agree.
Just double-checked the rules for the sorcerer class. No requirement to have hands was listed.
Questions are the hallmark of the creative mind, and the curious cat finds the cream. "What if" and "Why not" are great questions.Consistency is the hobgoblin of a hobbled mind.
And curiousity killed the cat -- trust me, I know.
"But t'was satisfaction brought him back."
The other half of your quote.
But then he just died again -- which is of course fine he'll only do it nine times.
This thread reminds me of the words of the great James Jacobs when he said that players nowadays rely too heavily on strict rules interpretations and less on DM rulings.
Just go with whatever makes you happy. If you want Blink Dog Sorcerers to require Natural Spell, then so be it. Maybe they gain Still Spell as a racial bonus feat in your world. If so, coolness.
I am a firm believer in doing whatever makes your game better, even if it flies in the face of the rules. Just make sure that your game is fun and that's that.
The polymorph quote by RD says otherwise. Now if you were saying a creature in it's natural form can cast spells then I will agree.By that criteria, you could cast spells in nearly ANY form. That seems...wrong...to me.Actually I thought that that natural spell already established that you can cast spells in nearly any form.
Personally, I believe a creatures form isn't particularly relevant when spell casting, its more about understanding magic and being able to manipulate it in such a way as to get the desired effect. Thus the mind using magic is far more important then the body using it.
Actually I was simply referring to the fact that it is possible to cast spells in nearly any form since if natural spell allows you to substitute both verbal and somatic components for various noises and gestures appropriate for your form, creatures for which that is their natural form would logically learn magic in a fashion appropriate for that form.
In any case, while I like to be able to explain why things are the way they are, I believe the question has been answered sufficiently several times now and agree that it's being overthought and not worthy of flagging. In fact to quote my 1st post:
Not everything is explicitly stated in the rules nor should it be as that would at least double the size of the rulebook and overcomplicate the game.
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There is a part of me that, looking at all of the 'this isn't right!' in this thread regarding Blink Dogs and hands...Part of me that suddenly has a migraine at how much time someone can waste defending their point on a Forum (ravingdork), when it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
However... I also understand that (If we are to assume Blink Dogs, Nagas etc... get a 'Pass' on having to have hands for their Spell casting), it should probably be stated in the Bestiary somewhere for all to see (If only to avoid a thread like this going 500+ posts.
So, oddly, I suppose I agree with you, albeit grudgingly, that Paizo should have 'said something' about Blink Dogs getting the pass.
On the subject of animals and intricate movements. Watch video on birds of paradise doing mating dance, or mantis shrimp in one of their face-offs with one another, and it will be evident that many animals can make intricate and highly detailed gestures
(Although Mantis Shrimp often have Magus levels, not Sorc, and Birds of Paradise are clearly Bards...).
-Uriel
However... I also understand that (If we are to assume Blink Dogs, Nagas etc... get a 'Pass' on having to have hands for their Spell casting), it should probably be stated in the Bestiary somewhere for all to see (If only to avoid a thread like this going 500+ posts
What 'pass' are they getting?
The magic rules say they need to gesture.
The polymorph rules are speaking about a -humanoid- casting spells in a non-humanoid form. This is completely different, and irrelevant unless speaking about blink dog sorcerers casting polymorph spells.
I personally rule this relatively harshly. If the creature isn't definitely humanoid, I only allow spellcasting if the form is that of a creature with innate spellcasting. So a human to blink dog polymorph can't do it. Human to naga, couatl, dragon are ok.
While it doesn't truly matter to the game, I would rule the same way for a blink dog to human transformation...they need Natural Spell to cast while polymorphed to a humanoid form. They learned magic in a dog form, so unless they are in other dog forms, they don't know the appropriate corresponding gestures.
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I don't have the Bestiary II yet but I know that blink dogs used to have "hands" for their forepaws. Is that no longer the case?
Are you thinking of Moon Dogs?
The Holloway art in the 1983 MM2 did give them long tapered fingers.
I see Snorter beat me to it, but I was also going to say that it was the Moon Dog that Bob_Loblaw was thinking about.
And... by the way... Blink Dog sorcerers... NEAT!
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However... I also understand that (If we are to assume Blink Dogs, Nagas etc... get a 'Pass' on having to have hands for their Spell casting), it should probably be stated in the Bestiary somewhere for all to see (If only to avoid a thread like this going 500+ postsWhat 'pass' are they getting?
The magic rules say they need to gesture.
The polymorph rules are speaking about a -humanoid- casting spells in a non-humanoid form. This is completely different, and irrelevant unless speaking about blink dog sorcerers casting polymorph spells.
I personally rule this relatively harshly. If the creature isn't definitely humanoid, I only allow spellcasting if the form is that of a creature with innate spellcasting. So a human to blink dog polymorph can't do it. Human to naga, couatl, dragon are ok.
While it doesn't truly matter to the game, I would rule the same way for a blink dog to human transformation...they need Natural Spell to cast while polymorphed to a humanoid form. They learned magic in a dog form, so unless they are in other dog forms, they don't know the appropriate corresponding gestures.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The Pass is in that it is assumed that they can cast in their natural form, without it being stated somewhere (Thus alleviating threads like this one). I wasn't addressing Polymorph at all, just the initial issue of Blink Dogs/Whatever being assumd to be fine with casting minus thumbs/hands.
I agree on them needing Natural Spell. Hmm, Blink Dog Druids now sound pretty cool...Hero Labs, here I come.
-Uriel
I think it would be better if a blank statement that said a creature's descriptions can over ride normal spellcasting rules. That way there is no need for feats.
PS:I really don't think it is required, and it is pretty far down on my list of priorities of things I want to see fixed.
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The blink dog entry in the Bestiary II says blink dog sages often have sorcerer levels. How can blink dogs possibly be effective sorcerers without hands? Do they always take the Still Spell metamagic feat, and end up casting most spells 1 level behind?
Blink Dogs are able to duplicate the effects of most any spell with a frisbee. No? :p
I don't have the Bestiary II yet but I know that blink dogs used to have "hands" for their forepaws. Is that no longer the case?Are you thinking of Moon Dogs?
The Holloway art in the 1983 MM2 did give them long tapered fingers.
Yes, that's what I'm thinking of. It's been so long since I've seen moon dogs and I can't think of the last time I've used a blink dog. Looks like I got my breeds mixed.
Maybe they're mutts; part moondog so's they got hands.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The Pass is in that it is assumed that they can cast in their natural form, without it being stated somewhere (Thus alleviating threads like this one).
I think it would be better if a blank statement that said a creature's descriptions can over ride normal spellcasting rules. That way there is no need for feats.
PS:I really don't think it is required, and it is pretty far down on my list of priorities of things I want to see fixed.
But that's what I'm getting at.
There is no need. There is no pass. There is nothing in the rules that suggests a blink dog (or any other creature that can speak) can't cast sorcerer spells. They can speak and gesture, which is what was listed as a requirement. Does that not end the argument? Bringing polymorph rules in are a distraction, in my mind. If the creature/caster in question isn't casting polymorph, those rules have no bearing.
I seen a penguin sorceror flappin his little flippers and fireballin a rabid elephant seal.
The blink dog is pretty obviously the Jeep dog from the Popeye comics with the serial numbers lightly sanded off, and the Jeep, if you read the description, is basically one of the Hounds of Tindalos, albeit a pleasant kid-friendly puppy version.
What's Popeye's favorite Led Zep song?
AaaaaaaaGUGGUGGUGGUGGUG!
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Sorry, I wasn't clear. The Pass is in that it is assumed that they can cast in their natural form, without it being stated somewhere (Thus alleviating threads like this one).I think it would be better if a blank statement that said a creature's descriptions can over ride normal spellcasting rules. That way there is no need for feats.
PS:I really don't think it is required, and it is pretty far down on my list of priorities of things I want to see fixed.
But that's what I'm getting at.
There is no need. There is no pass. There is nothing in the rules that suggests a blink dog (or any other creature that can speak) can't cast sorcerer spells. They can speak and gesture, which is what was listed as a requirement. Does that not end the argument? Bringing polymorph rules in are a distraction, in my mind. If the creature/caster in question isn't casting polymorph, those rules have no bearing.
Sorry, watching my fave team's playoff hopes disappear (Grr...Stupid Chiefs).
I guess what I should have said was: It would be nice if, somewhere in the Bestiary, there was a blurb saying that spell gestures were satisfied by whatever ones the creature could make naturally. That 'Somatic' didn't necessarily means waving hands about.
I personally rule this relatively harshly. If the creature isn't definitely humanoid, I only allow spellcasting if the form is that of a creature with innate spellcasting. So a human to blink dog polymorph can't do it. Human to naga, couatl, dragon are ok.
This is the way I believed it to be by default. The responses in this thread is the first time I've ever heard differently (in fact, they are downright contradictory to similar threads I've had on the v3.5 boards throughout its time).
It would be nice if, somewhere in the Bestiary, there was a blurb saying that spell gestures were satisfied by whatever ones the creature could make naturally. That 'Somatic' didn't necessarily means waving hands about.
It certainly would have been.
I personally rule this relatively harshly. If the creature isn't definitely humanoid, I only allow spellcasting if the form is that of a creature with innate spellcasting. So a human to blink dog polymorph can't do it. Human to naga, couatl, dragon are ok.This is the way I believed it to be by default. The responses in this thread is the first time I've ever heard differently (in fact, they are downright contradictory to similar threads I've had on the v3.5 boards throughout its time).
It would be nice if, somewhere in the Bestiary, there was a blurb saying that spell gestures were satisfied by whatever ones the creature could make naturally. That 'Somatic' didn't necessarily means waving hands about.It certainly would have been.
I agree with Kain, but casting after polymorphing has nothing to with natural spellcasting. He is only talking about polymorph which has nothing to do with the creature's inherent ability to cast spells. I think as an unspoken rule creatures with a tendency to naturally get sorcerer levels, whether by racial feature(naga) or by design(blink dog) don't have to worry about the same thing humanoids do. It should also be noted that most rules are written from a player's PoV, but they may not apply as written. I still remember the antimagic field(10 ft radius) on a huge or larger dragon issue a while back. Maybe it should have been written to extend 10 feet from the creature's base, but it wasn't.
I think as an unspoken rule creatures with a tendency to naturally get sorcerer levels, whether by racial feature(naga) or by design(blink dog) don't have to worry about the same thing humanoids do.
I guess I will have to expand my interpretation to include this line of thought, otherwise, nothing really makes sense.
I agree with Kain, but casting after polymorphing has nothing to with natural spellcasting. He is only talking about polymorph which has nothing to do with the creature's inherent ability to cast spells. I think as an unspoken rule creatures with a tendency to naturally get sorcerer levels, whether by racial feature(naga) or by design(blink dog) don't have to worry about the same thing humanoids do.
Wraithstrike is right, I was only speaking to the restrictions of a humanoid PC polymorphing.
I feel that it isn't an unspoken rule at all. The magic chapter very plainly spells out the requirements to cast a spell.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html
Capable of casting the spell. (prepared or known, proper level)
Ability score. 10+spell level.
Capable of speech for verbal components.
Capable of gesturing for somatic components.
Capable of manipulating the material components or focus.
Now, I don't have the PF blink dog stats, the book hasn't become available at my friendly 'local' gaming store. But I'll use the one from the d20srd.
Assuming a blink dog sor 1 with elite array (15 base cha) casting magic missile. At the darkness.
Spell known, check. (sorcerer 1 knows magic missile)
11+ Cha, check. (15 cha)
Capable of speech, check ("Blink dogs have their own language, a mixture of barks, yaps, whines, and growls that can transmit complex information.")
Capable of gesturing, check. ("Gesture - a movement or position of the hand, arm, body, head, or face that is expressive of an idea, opinion, emotion, etc." dictionary.com)
No need for material components.
Bam. He casts magic missile at the darkness.
I really don't get the confusion here. There's nothing FAQ worthy. There is no rule that a creature must have hands or have automatic natural spellcasting in order to cast spells. None whatsoever. There is a rule, in the Polymorph subschool rules, that states that a Polymorphed humanoid (because the Core Rulebook is for PCs and assumes that all PCs are humanoids) must have hands and be able to talk in the target form in order to cast spells.
The Polymorph rules do not expand to cover the entirety of the spellcasting system. They are specifically for polymorphed creatures, and that makes sense. If you've trained to cast magic by making intricate gestures with your fingers and you change into a form that has no fingers, then you're going to have a hard time casting spells. However, no rules in the game prevent a creature of that same race from casting spells.
I think they do the somatic gestures wit their ears.
I feel that it isn't an unspoken rule at all. The magic chapter very plainly spells out the requirements to cast a spell.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html
Capable of casting the spell. (prepared or known, proper level)
Ability score. 10+spell level.
Capable of speech for verbal components.
Capable of gesturing for somatic components.
Capable of manipulating the material components or focus.
I agree with your assessment, but the link you provided actually says this about Somatic Components:
Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
Since blink dogs don't have hands, they can't use spells with somatic components.
Personally, I see the word "hands" in a more liberal meaning that allows creatures without hands to still cast spells. They just need to be able to perform the proper gestures. If we use the definition from Dictionary.com we have:
a (1) : the terminal part of the vertebrate forelimb when modified (as in humans) as a grasping organ (2) : the forelimb segment (as the terminal section of a bird's wing) of a vertebrate higher than the fishes that corresponds to the hand irrespective of its form or functional specialization
b : a part serving the function of or resembling a hand: as (1) : the hind foot of an ape (2) : the chela of a crustacean
c : something resembling a hand: as (1) : an indicator or pointer on a dialect <the hands of a clock> (2) : index 5 (3) : a cluster of bananas developed from a single flower group (4) : a branched rootstock of ginger (5) : a bunch of large leaves (as of tobacco) tied together usually with another leaf
So if we just expand the strict definition being used by Ravingdork to include the definition used by Dictionary.com, the problem is resolved without need to FAQ anything and we can all get back to gaming.
I have a house rule in my games that states "If the book says a creature can do something, then the creature can do that thing."
+1.
There is no shortage of effects in the real world that can be accomplished in a variety of disparate ways. Borrowing from the world of programming as an example, there are utterly different languages and patterns that can be used to achieve the same objectives. It seems to me that a blink dog casting sorcerer spells is exactly like that. Different motions and sounds, same spell effects. This fits with the polymorph limitation as well: you learned techniques involving your fingers and your words to cast your spells, but you don't have the requisite knowledge of how to accomplish the same using tail wagging, ear wiggling, and yips.
As to the folks on here who think the designers should have addressed this in the books, all I can say is, are you serious? Really? Based on the many threads I've read on this site, it's my judgment that your capacity to identify the most minute of gray areas is perhaps infinite. It is not humanly possible for the good folks at Paizo to anticipate and account for every conceivable tiny little permutation of possibilities, enshrine them perfectly within a seamlessly integrated set of rules, and publish them in a volume that would fit within the confines of our universe.
If you think you can do it, have at it. Good luck. Me? I think this is why we have rule zero.
Spells
Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.
A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.
A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.
The way it worked was ABSOLUTELY CLEAR in v3.5, as shown above. If you had innate spellcasting ability, you could use your body movements to fulfill the somatic components and you didn't even have to get material components out. If you had to take class levels to gain spellcasting, you gained no such benefit. For some strange reason, however, the above text was omitted in Pathfinder.
That is why it is SO unclear to me. The system, as written, has a gaping hole in its rules in regards to both creatures who cast spells innately, and non-humanoid monsters who cast spells via class levels.
I thought this was going to ask about how their could be a Sorcerer Blink Dog Bloodline.. I was going to say thats obvious, but I see I was wrong about the topic.
Do we need a 'dimension' bloodline? Something affiliated with blink dogs, xill, phase spiders, displacer beasts and all those other funky things?
Spells
Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.
A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.
A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.
The way it worked was ABSOLUTELY CLEAR in v3.5, as shown above. If you had innate spellcasting ability, you could use your body movements to fulfill the somatic components and you didn't even have to get material components out. If you had to take class levels to gain spellcasting, you gained no such benefit. For some strange reason, however, the above text was omitted in Pathfinder.
That is why it is SO unclear to me. The system, as written, has a gaping hole in its rules in regards to both creatures who cast spells innately, and non-humanoid monsters who cast spells via class levels.
A lot of rules were cut out. I just assume the rules exist in PF unless there is a rule against it. I can't find the rules for stacking crits as an example, but I remember them from 3.5.
The second sentence will save you a lot of headaches most of the times.
A lot of rules were cut out. I just assume the rules exist in PF unless there is a rule against it. I can't find the rules for stacking crits as an example, but I remember them from 3.5.
I've seen people (outside this thread) get yelled at on these boards for making such assumptions.
Also:
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
The crit multiplier rule seems pretty existent and clear to me. Perhaps it was errata'd back in later like the monster spell rule should be?
The second sentence will save you a lot of headaches most of the times.
Second sentence? Sorry, I don't follow.
A lot of rules were cut out. I just assume the rules exist in PF unless there is a rule against it. I can't find the rules for stacking crits as an example, but I remember them from 3.5.I've seen people (outside this thread) get yelled at on these boards for making such assumptions.
Also:
Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
The crit multiplier rule seems pretty existent and clear to me. Perhaps it was errata'd back in later like the monster spell rule should be?
The second sentence will save you a lot of headaches most of the times.Second sentence? Sorry, I don't follow.
Darn I looked right at that and assumed it was something else. I guess that is what I get for skim reading.
2nd sentence-->I just assume the rules exist in PF unless there is a rule against it.
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I thought this was going to ask about how their could be a Sorcerer Blink Dog Bloodline.. I was going to say thats obvious, but I see I was wrong about the topic.Do we need a 'dimension' bloodline? Something affiliated with blink dogs, xill, phase spiders, displacer beasts and all those other funky things?
I was more thinking about how a blink dog blood line could exist.
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I was more thinking about how a blink dog blood line could exist.I thought this was going to ask about how their could be a Sorcerer Blink Dog Bloodline.. I was going to say thats obvious, but I see I was wrong about the topic.Do we need a 'dimension' bloodline? Something affiliated with blink dogs, xill, phase spiders, displacer beasts and all those other funky things?
*whistles a bit then points out the existence of the "Blinkling" race in Green Ronin's Bastards and Bloodlines, the half-halfling and half-blink dog*
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Sorry, watching my fave team's playoff hopes disappear (Grr...Stupid Chiefs).** spoiler omitted **
-Uriel
Mine does it with drool....
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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It seems to me that if a creature learned to cast spells in a nonhumanoid form, then the somatic components would be appropriate to that form. The rules referenced above for somatic components and so forth all assume the creature has a humanoid form, because that's what PCs have, and the book is written with the player in mind.
Were I to rule on this in a game, I would say that a Blink Dog (or any other nonhumanoid creature who learned to cast spells) would be able to perform the somatic components of the spell using whatever limbs were available. If that creature were polymorphed into a humanoid, they would no longer be able to perform those somatic components because, e.g., humans don't have tails. If said creature took the Natural Spell feat, then it would be able to cast spells using humanoid Somatic components (or in any other appropriate form).
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Threads like this make me wonder if there is any imagination left in RPG. A blink dog or any other intelligent creature can take a class level because...Why Not? There is nothing in the rules that says it can't and even if there was, just ignore it. Specifically, GMs are encouraged to let the enjoyment of the game over-ride minor rules-lawyering. Most of the rules were written with the player-character in mind, not the monsters. There are more exceptions to normal rules used by monsters than players. The players need to know what they can/cannot do and how to develop their characters. If the GM creates a blue-skinned lizard with six legs and four eyes, with cleric levels and a breath weapon of entangling jelly, why can't it be? If the players enjoy encountering it, who cares. If my players asked me how come a blink dog can cast without hands and they can't, I would reply, "Evolution has allowed them to develop spell-casting reflective of their anatomy." Enough said, move on...
I hope the powers-that-be at Paizo do not waste their valuable time commenting on easily interpreted rules like this when they could be focused on the next great publication...can't wait for Ultimate Magic.
How can a ghost cast? It doesn't even have a physical body? ;)
How can a ghost cast? It doesn't even have a physical body? ;)
*cracks whip*
Get back to work!